[X] My Assistant

[MrSandman666]

First of all: dear moderators, please do not move this topic to the projects board! I posted here intentionally to reach the target audience and no one is going to read this if it's posted on the community projects board.

Now to the poll:
Which OS do you use? A couple of friends and I are planning to develop a database application to help GMs with their job. Now we are consulting for which OS to design the program.
Should we use portable libraries like Tcl/Tk, Qt, etc. or should we restrict ourselves to one OS, like Windows and use native tools like C#, C++...
Would you be willing to install third party libraries like Python to get the program running?

And btw: this is going to be open source so if anybody wants to help... just PM me.

[official voice=on]Thank you very much for your cooperation[/official voice]

[Matrix Monkey]

[Birdy]

Go with multi-plattform stuff like

Perl
TCL/TK
JAVA
C++ and QT

Don't go the Windows Way.


Michael

[Frag-o Delux]

I use windows, XP currently, for the ease of use, and I am too lazy to learn anything else. The little I know about programming leads me to believe portable libraries are the way to go. A friend and I were at one time well into the development of a SR prog to cover everything in the game, that would allow all kinds of things. The time it was taking, real life getting in the way, and my piss poor programming sklls was our down fall. I was trying to improve my skills but my job and intrests was not in programming. I was mainly the idea, design and art department, he was the implementing/programming department, with a lot of cross development. It was fun but ut was not ment to be.

So my vote is make it diverse as possible, sure it is alot of work, but it may save you a lot more, when people cry "It doesn't work on my system" then you finally cave in and go to write it up to fit their system also. THat is also my opinion, an insignificant one from a guy who barely grasps C/C++.

[nezumi]

what about 98 or people like me who have three or more computers??

Honestly, code it in Java. Java is easy to program in and its usable on any OS.

[Birdy]

[MrSandman666]

Java is not an option. Don't ask. It just isn't an option. We're probably going to settle on C#, which is basically a more thought-out version of Java (with a C syntax, of course). Like Java it uses just-in-time-comilation, meaning it will need an interpreter of some kind (the Microsoft .NET framework, which is available for free and already available on most modern Windows computers, in this case). Currently, it only runs on windows but the guys over at Mono are working like mad to get a C# runtime working for Linux. And since MacOS X has a Linux foundation it will most likely also run on the Mac. It's only a matter of time. But then again, it's gonna take us a while to get this done, too.

This is not definite yet, though. We might still change to Qt or whatever. Right know it just seems to be the easiest and most efficient way of doing it.
If anybody has any experience in working with Qt or Tk/Tcl, please share! None of us have ever worked with this before and therefore we don't know just how complicated it is to write a multi-platform app with these tools. However, I can see myself being killed by my co-workers if I suggest using Java. They have used it before and they hate it with passion.

[Backgammon]

Yeah, where the hell is win 98 in that poll?

[nezumi]

?? How is Java not 'well thought out'? It blows C/C++ out of the water in regards to foreplanning. I've never heard of Mono, so unless you have a lot of confidence in them, be careful. It's not fun to bet on a language doing something only to find it's going to be delayed or cancelled.

I fail to understand how Java is a bad language. It'll be a bit slower than C/C++, but that'll be the case with any language that uses an interpreter. Not to be nasty, but I can't understand why your coworkers hate java, unless they were using an old version (pre 1.2) or they were using it in a way it wasn't meant to be used, or they simply aren't trained to use it. I use it all the time and I really have no complaints; with complex stuff it's a lot safer and bug proof than anything else I've ever used.

I'd be careful about using C#. I don't want to have to set up yet *another* interpreter to use a program, especially if it's M$, which I'm always suspicious of. Obviously, same goes with things like perl, which windows users can't use easily. Probably the thing you can do to make it work best would be to integrate it into a website, either one which people can actually use online, or just an HTML front page which opens up your script, both of which the person downloads. Alternatively, make it in C++ and compile it separately for windows, linux and mac then post the source code for anyone else.

[MrSandman666]

Oops... forgot about good ol' Win98. Any Windows version counts as Windows XP for the purpose of this poll...

Now, I don't want to go into a fight as to why someone thinks Java is good or bad or whatever. I've never used it so I'm not qualified to judge it anyways. I'm just forwarding their opinion. There's no way I'm gonna get them to use that. But another question: I would like to try that out. Do you know of any good freeware/open source Java IDE and comiler?

Before today I haven't heard of Mono either but then again I didn't know that C# was designed to be a multi-platform language either. They're backed by Ximion which is a comparably large company and they're making progress pretty quickly. The Window.Forms module is planned to reach final stage by next summer or so...

A problem with Qt is that it's not for free and we can't each put 1,500$ into a tool like this. After all we're just doing this for fun in our free time.
The thing that really turns me off about Tk/Tcl is that it's a skripting language with a Syntax of its own. That'd be quite comlicated to develop.
And other than those two I haven't heard of any other good cross-plattform libraries (or at least I can't think of any...)

[Adam]

OSX does not have a Linux foundation; it has a BSD foundation.

[Birdy]

C# is not! a better JAVA - it's a cheap, lousy and MS-Only (forget MONO) piece of crap (used both!) If you want to use MS-only stuff, do yourself a favor and use Visual Basic 6.

C++/Qt is doable. Qt is a well-done, well tested library used i.e. in the KDE project. Works on MS-Systems also (check the licence!) Library is, according to a co-worker, Object-Oriented. Lot's of sample code from the KDE project.

TCL/TK (The former the programming language, the latter the GUI-Stuff) is a nice scripting language once you get used to the syntax. Interpreters exist for a variety of OS and the language is OS-independend (don't know wether a WIN-Version exists). There are two books on it out, one by the Author (Osterhoose IIRC) the other by Walsh. I preferred the latter due to better examples. Takes about a month (parallel to normal students work) to get into it once you're used to it.

As for JAVA:

Shoot your co-workers (Phone if you need help...)
Get a good IDE (Eclipes/JDeveloper 9 / JBuilder 8)
Use JAVA 1.3.1 and above
Simply enjoy


Michael

[Adam]

TCL/TK runs on Windows, absolutely.

Another option is Visual Smalltalk, but I've only used programs written in it, never actually developed for it.

[nezumi]

If you want to program in java...

Go to the java website (java.sun.com) and you can find everything. You want the Java 1.3.* or 1.4.* SDK version (these are both J2SE, FYI). Here's the link to the download for 1.4.2:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/download.html

When you install it, the quick and stupid way to program in it is to go to the folder you installed it in /bin. Create a new java file from a text file, renamed whatever.java .From the command prompt type javac name.java, then java name to compile and run.

You may want to use something else to compile, especially once you've mastered the basics of programming the language, but that's up to you.

The API (list of all the classes and how they work) is at:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/index.html (you can also download them, yay!)

With that and a tutorial, you should be up and running in no time flat.


Back to the subject....
What is TCL/TK? I've never heard of it. Depending on the depth of your project, you could also consider programming it in flash (I hear chuckles from the other programmers here...). Apparently you can get Flash Director for free for 30 days, and the program is only a couple hundred dollars (maybe less?) Then you know most people can use it easily. Plus, it's quick and easy, so if you're just doing a stat calculator or something, that might be the way to go. That said, this is obviously only for more basic programs...

[BitBasher]

Sorry nezumi, I am also on the bandwagon for utterly hating java. I vote for C++. I am using XP and CE. Used to keep other OS's but realized I never used them.

[Birdy]

[Kagetenshi]

Gyah! *Hisses and recoils from C#*
There's a reason I named the incompetent NPC decker in my campaign C#. I have admittedly never used it myself, but as a CS major at an engineering school I have heard thus far nothing but hate for the thing.
I hate Java as well, but unless you want to admit that this quiz was just to tease us and you're really just going to support Windows and nothing else, it may be your best option.

~J

[Spookymonster]

OS neutral with a single code-base and easy install? Go Java. The runtimes are already installed on 99% of the PCs you'll be running on. You won't have to recompile for every targetted OS. You also won't have to learn/write any OS-specific code.

Looking for volunteers? Go Java. If you're really just planning on a Wintel solution, C++ has a decent userbase among professionals and hobbyists alike. C# is (supposedly) similar to Java, but it has the stank of Micro$oft on it, which many Open Source programmers find highly offensive. And despite Ximian's best efforts, Mono is not 100% compatable with C#. It also doesn't operate with the blessings of M$, which means it can be shut down at Bill G's slightest whim.

Having said all that, I personally prefer Rexx, Perl, or Java. But then again, I'm a mainframe (T. Rexx) scripting geek :).

[Liquid_Obsidian]

please please do it in Java but the sun one , not the micro$hit , please...

[Tanka]

I once attempted to learn Java. It might've been a really, really bad teacher, or it might've been that it was done in tandem with Oracle. From that experience, I don't like it. Yes, it's multi-platform, but how many people are willing to wait the extra so many minutes to interpret the Java.

In my experience, C/C++ are the best ways to go, both are multi-platform supported, and can be compiled beforehand so front-end users don't have to. If you can find the C/C++ coders to do it, go for it. If not, Java is the best way to go for multi-platform.

I won't even go into PERL... Setting up the damn thing is obnoxiously difficult.

[Adam]

[Birdy]

[Sahandrian]

I was forced to vote XP, because that's what my current computer uses. I'd be using WinME if I had $300 to spend on it...

[nezumi]

ACK!! WinME?? Are you a masochist?!? ME was Gates' last huge joke on users. An OS based on the less secure platform (98/95) with all the obnoxious lack of control and weird settings from the difficult OS (2k/XP). I would go back to DOS before using ME.

[Fortune]

98SE for me, but I voted 'Other' before realising that all Windows products were expected to be 'lumped together'.