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Posted by: bitrunner Jan 16 2004, 02:44 PM

This thread will be for posting information on what I call "Advanced Rules". They are for rules that for lack of a better term are "House Rules". While we try to stick with the published rules for everything that we do, there are just some things out there that are not covered. Not everything will need a rule and can be adjudicated by the GM depending on the situation, but some things I can forsee people wanting to do more than just during one adventure, and therefore there should be some consistency in how GMs handle those situations. Where possible, these rulings have already gone through Rob Boyle at FanPro for his take on the situation. After that, if he doesn't have any specific guidance, then I will make the final determination based on research, common sense, game balance, and the fact that well, I'm just so gosh darned smart!

If you find a rule that you think you will be using a lot, feel free to print out that page / section of the forum. Every so often, I will collect these into a master document for GMs to consider.

If you have any questions, please post them in the General Questions thread and not here - I will be monitoring this thread and removing any posts that are not from myself or a recognized and approved source.

Thanks

Posted by: bitrunner Jan 16 2004, 03:03 PM

Acids and Gel/Capsule Rounds
Dated: 15 Jan 04

The question has arisen concerning putting acid into gel capsule rounds. Rob Boyle has stated that the description of gel rounds supports the fact that the technology has progressed so that the gel can hold almost anything, but that acids would eventually break down the capsule/coating, thus reducing the shelf life of such rounds.

With that in mind, I have developed the chart found below. Anything higher than Rating 15 acid is so powerful that it will instantly dissolve/eat through the gel material. Gel / capsule rounds will only have a limited shelf life based on humidity or other factors of about a year, and any that contain a Rating 1 acid will degrade even faster, with a base time of 6 months - the acid eats away from the inside, and oxidation, humity, and other chemical interactions wear it down from the outside.

Acid Rating........Shelf Life (before acid destroys shell)
Rating 1.................6 months
Rating 2.................4 months
Rating 3.................2 months
Rating 4.................1 month
Rating 5.................2 weeks
Rating 6.................1 week
Rating 7.................3 days
Rating 8.................1 day
Rating 9.................12 hours
Rating 10................6 hours
Rating 11................3 hours
Rating 12................1 hours
Rating 13................30 minutes
Rating 14................15 minutes
Rating 15................5 minutes

Posted by: bitrunner Jan 20 2004, 02:12 PM

For ease of rules lawyers, all caustic substances, nanites, et cetera, will use the same chart. Inert materials such as paint, etc, will last for at least a year.

Posted by: Kax Apr 1 2004, 08:16 AM

Got a rules question about Dikote.
How much do I have to use for different swords, axes and knives? (Is there a list or page for this?)
How much do I use for spurs?
And how do I stop my GM from using Dikoted fang caps on hellhounds?

My thought: reach + 1 units of Dikote (1000nY/unit), for simplicity.

Kax

Posted by: Casazil Apr 1 2004, 09:05 PM

Well while it may seem simple to use reach Kax it does not work. You have to go by size of the surface area to be Dikoted. I can't tell you how much most items will take or how much they will cost. However I do know from Bitrunner that a katana cost 5000 to Dikote so to have a Dikoted katana you spend 6000 . That of course is at character creation in game prices may go up. In being involved with the game at Megacon I also know he charged a player 5000 to Dikote his baseball bat. So if it has the surface area that is equal to either the katana or a baseball bat you can pretty much count on the Dikote costing you 5000 . Given time I am sure Bitrunner will post a chart so as to cover most items that can be Dikoted. Remember though if the item in question can't take excessive heat it can't be Dikoted.

Posted by: Kax Apr 2 2004, 12:31 AM

Thanks, E.O.T.L.F. I can extrapolate from there, I think. Just spurs right now...

Posted by: simonw2000 May 17 2004, 01:41 PM

I have a few questions:

Are the Martial Arts rules from CC allowed in SRM?
Does Orichalcum count as a radical when enchanting? I mean, can you get a -5 TN mod if you use 2 radicals and 1 unit of orichalcum?

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 17 2004, 02:32 PM

The basics that I have heard is that anything which is labeled optional will not be used. As near as I can tell, this definitely covers the advanced melee combat rules in CC, the martial arts in CC, several (but not all) sections of the advanced combat stuff at the end of CC, Edges and Flaws, and probably a few more I'm not thinking of off-hand.

Posted by: simonw2000 May 17 2004, 04:30 PM

Doesn't answer my orichalcum question.

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 17 2004, 05:12 PM

That's because I'm not official and have no clue

Posted by: MooCow May 17 2004, 11:52 PM

Can I have sex with my Ally Spirit?

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 18 2004, 12:30 AM

Only if it's dikoted.

Posted by: bitrunner May 18 2004, 02:07 AM

Martial Arts rules from CC...no, as mentioned, they are optional rules and therefore not used...

Orichalcum...this is (except for the rare exception) the result of an alchemical procedure, and therefore is not a radical...

ally spirits....ally spirits can only be dikoted if they are placed into an homunculus that is constructed of stone or better material - anything less would be consumed by the intense heat and pressure required during the dikoting process. once dikoted, however, ....nah, i'm not touching the second part of that question...

Posted by: Casazil May 18 2004, 06:44 PM

OH MY! ROFLMFAO !!!!!!! GO BITRUNNER GO!

Posted by: Kax May 19 2004, 12:09 AM

Hand-cast metal-matrix ceramic composite compound lingam/yoni homunculus, dikoted... I don't think I should go any further...

Smooth, though...

Posted by: simonw2000 May 24 2004, 01:09 PM

I think you can do it with an ally. See SSG. Make sure that they manifest in metahuman form, though. Otherwise people will start asking questions...

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 24 2004, 01:13 PM

SSG also revealed that it's illegal to do so and you'll get charged with cruelty to animals or somesuch

We are also waaaaay off topic.

Posted by: simonw2000 Jun 17 2004, 09:28 AM

How much does a permit for a spell cost? Way I see it, I'd make it 10% of the cost of the appropriate spell formula based on the Drain Code.

Posted by: bitrunner Jun 17 2004, 03:17 PM

well, for the most part, you don't have permits for spells, you have a license for being a magician. it depends on where you are, and obviously one nation does not necessarily recognize the license of another.

don't know off hand what the cost is, but that's what you're looking for - a license to practice magic.

remember that even with this license, the rules of the UCAS / Seattle is that spells are only legal cast at low force levels. Anything higher is illegal. Exceptions are of course made for healing magics. Also, any injuries or deaths which result from the use of magic are prosecuted as if a deadly weapon were used.

Face it, sometimes it is better to shoot someone with a gun than it is to hit them with a mana bolt, as far as the law and the courts are concerned...

Posted by: sidartha Jun 17 2004, 11:43 PM

It's not that Magic is considered a deadly weapon, but any death from magic is considered to have malice of fore-thought. Manabolt is always Murder 1, there is no self defence plea if you kill someone with magic.
Found in MITS. Magic In The Modern World section. Can't remember what page.



<Edit> My bad. Got home read the book and it actualy says:
"A felony committed using magic is considered a premeditated act. Killing someone with magic is considered First Degree Murder if brought to trial unless it is possable to prove self defence or other mitigating circumstances."
It goes on to say:
"Currently any spell, spirit, focus or other magical effect of force 3 or higher is legally regulated within the UCAS and CAS, though permits may be acquired to use such magic"
which makes sence otherwise only extraterritorial corps could have a ward higher than force three.
All this and more is in 'The Awakened World' pg 11 MITS.

Posted by: simonw2000 Jun 23 2004, 09:28 AM

And remember kids, you can initiate by making an ally.

Posted by: Johnson Aug 2 2004, 12:52 PM

I remember there was a module that involved a missing son who was very "gay" type as he ran away with a free spirit "Fire Elemnetal", and they loved each other.

Well did we get a lot of explanations about that.

Posted by: dokuja Sep 15 2004, 11:59 PM

I have a question about improving a character throughout the campaign.

What are the rules on improving attribute? Aside from paying for the karma, is there an extra cost in terms of time, money, etc?

Similarly, what are the rules on improving skill points with Karma? SR3 mentions something about finding an instructor and making a skill test to determine if the character can learn/improve the skill. How is that handled? And are there extra costs in terms of time, money, etc?

Also, are there any rules for characters building/repairing/manufacturing items if they have a shop in between runs? One of my character is a chemist with a chem shop, can he make toxins/slap patches etc?

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 16 2004, 01:56 AM

Improving Attributes - no, there are no other requirements other than the Karma costs...as much as i use house rules for this in my home campaign, it is not part of the core rules and therefore not part of Missions...

Improving Skills - well, here the core rules are of little help, as it suggests that training be used to slow the progress of characters and add to the roleplaying aspect. Nowhere does it say that this is an Advanced or Optional rule, although it could be argued that the wording leads one to believe that they are optional rules.

As far as Missions goes, you can improve your skills with just Karma for any skills that are present in the core rule book or could be reasonably learned by the character. Special regional skills, new skills that are developed in future products, or other special skills may or may not require an instructor and special rules. Examples of this would be Zero-G Combat Tactics (a special skill requiring special training, facilities, and time/money), Or'zet (the Orkish language in SOTA2064, is only available up to certain ratings and requires training and usually money), or some special Tir Noble fighting style (only taught to Tir nobility or to those found worthy - would earn the skill through roleplaying during an adventure)...

Shops - excellent question! there are, as you realize, few rules for governing the creation of items in the game - shops are there to basically give you the tools and facilities needed for certain B/R checks, rather than suffer the negative modifiers for not having such tools/facilities. this is something that we're working on right now. For now, I would say that you could build anything that is in the allowed books if it is legal for character creation - for instance, you could make your own ammunition, but only regular rounds, not APDS, since the latter is not available during character creation. the GM will have to determine, through common sense, the B/R rolls required and what items can be created - i would recommend a target number of the Availability, and the time to make the item(s) is the Availability as well. the raw materials should cost about 20% of the book value of the item. extra successes can of course reduce the build time as normal. i would also limit this to your B/R skill rating (if you have a Demolitions B/R of 4, you can make 4 grenades) of any item (remember that ammunition is 10 rounds = 1 item). What can be made must be common sense, and should not be abused. just because you can get maglock passkeys at Rating 6 during character creation does NOT mean you can just pay 20% to get the raw materials and crank out 4 or 5 of them and then sell them for profit - this is Shadowrun, you are a Shadowrunner, not a fabricator of product X...if you want to make your own ammunition, or a half dozen tranq patches, that's fine, but try to keep it within reason - and it should be something that you're making for yourself and immediate team members for use during that run - you should not be making them for selling and turning a profit...if i find out that this is happening, we'll revoke the privilege...

so, in summary, here are my suggested guidelines for a GM to follow for now until something official comes along:

B/R skill - determines number of items that can be created
Availability - determines target number for constructing item, and time to do so; note that extra successes reduce the required time as normal
Cost - 20% of listed book cost (without street index) determines cost of raw materials to make the item

items should be limited to low complexity items and consumables. examples of these would be ammunition, grenades, explosives, detonators, non-armored clothing (such as suits, uniforms, etc - base TN is 4, time is 24 hours per outfit, and extra successes can reduce time or increase quality of clothing), entertainment recordings/remixes, most survival gear, food, medkit supplies, and slap patches.

guns, vehicles, magic items, decks, programs, and certain other items have their own construction rules. cyber/bioware is dead out.

electronics are, for the most part, too complex to build in the time allowed and still be dependable enough for use on a shadowrun - if you want to whip together an FM radio, simple comm units, or something similar, the GM will have to make the call.

i was hoping to avoid this topic until some more substantial rules came out...

Posted by: Wasabi Sep 27 2004, 05:04 PM

Posted by: Donner Oct 4 2004, 06:57 PM

Initiation.

I am guessing:

(1) Self-initiation is possible, as it's a standard rule.

(2) Ordeals are allowed, since they are standard. Ones involving die rolls would be adjudicated by the ref.

(3) Not possible to start a Group with other players as yet?

Does the above sound about right?

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 4 2004, 08:44 PM

1) yes
2) yes
3) correct...i'm working on the mechanics right now - basically, forming a group (any kind of group, not just magical!) will be "sponsored" by a Commando. Magical groups are easy, but there will be social groups, policlubs, and other groups as well (including secret societies). Note that the campaign will still have (soon) magic groups that anyone can join that will not require a Commando, just the GMs witness of any dice rolling and accounting - we will have at least 3 groups - hermetics, shamans, and adepts....

welcome to Ron and Margaret!! (for those that don't know, they first started the convention campaign idea for shadowrun long ago with the beginning of Virtual Seattle - kind of our grampa and grandma )

Posted by: Donner Oct 4 2004, 09:20 PM

Posted by: Donner Oct 5 2004, 03:04 PM

And one more, re Exclusive mods to spells. The spirit of the thing seems to be to let these pierce the Force 6 limit at creation, but the wording of the rules does not actually support that in SR3. You can do 2 things with Exclusivity (same argument for Fetish spells, except the value is -1, not -2) :

(1) Reduce the Karma cost and difficulty to learn a spell by 2, but otherwise leave the spell unaltered;
(2) Have the spell function as Force-2 for purposes of Drain power and determination if it's Physical or Stun drain. However, unlike SR1, where the mod was effectively a "phantom plus" to Force, in SR3 you would have to, if you wanted a Force 8 spell that drained as 6, buy it at Force 8 for 8 Karma and then apply the reducer at Drain. So, a newly-created character in fact cannot do that, since Force 6 is the limit at creation, not Force 8.

Is this interpretation correct? In other words, when the game came out, it was Force 6( 8 ). Now, it's Force 8(6 for drain) if you use Exclusive modifiers.

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 19 2004, 05:26 AM

Donner, my .02 nuyen: I see nothing in the rules that lets you start with a spell above Force 6 at creation. With Exclusive for cost you can purchase a Force 6 spell for only 4 spell points, but it doesn't let you get above Force 8.

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 19 2004, 05:54 AM

I'm a Missions GM.
At the end of an adventure, the characters may attempt to purchase items from their Fixer (or Talismonger, or Ares Arms Quartermaster, or ...). I know to make the simple stuff automatic (another 50 rounds of regular ammo for someone with an Etiquette skill). I know to make them roll for difficult stuff (a Kilo of C12 at Availability 10/48 hrs).

Are they allowed to make rolls for "Military Grade" gear (as defined on SR3.274 -- legality categories K,L,M,R,W,Z)? Or is this prohibited outside of special adventures?

Are they allowed to make rolls to locate a clinic that can implant normal cyberware? Do we use the Medical Search Table on MM.143, or something else? Can they try for a Cultured Bioware hospital? For a Deltaware clinic?

I know if they get 1 success acquiring something with 28 day availability, they don't get it till they've marked off four more weeks on their Annual Log sheet. Either they play 4 more adventures before it arrives, or pay a month of lifestyle to jump forward to that time.

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 19 2004, 01:15 PM

Posted by: Cranus Oct 24 2004, 04:25 AM

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 25 2004, 11:51 AM

yes!


(but primarily the former...don't expect to be able to negotiate access to a delta clinic unless a) you're dealing with someone who actually has access to said clinic and b) you are at least of Veteran level of Reputation)

Posted by: Kax Oct 25 2004, 12:28 PM

That's easy - we won't be able to afford useful Deltaware until we're vets anyway...

[thinks] ~mmmm, delta cyberarms... mmmmmm, delta bone lace...~

Posted by: Dr. Black Oct 28 2004, 12:02 AM

Will runners be able to trade/sell/barter for goods and services with each other. This could lead to a bit of an economy outside of the missions. I understand the potential headaches involved. However, if I am in a game (or at the end of one) and someone has an item they are willing to sell/trade/barter with me, how do we go about doing that?

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 28 2004, 12:18 PM

just have the GM witness it if it is something that you cannot normally purchase or obtain during Character Creation.

if someone wants to trade a Predator for a PocSec, i'm certainly not going to discourage, monitor, or track that. Just the big stuff...

Posted by: Dr. Black Nov 5 2004, 06:59 PM

Not sure if this is the right forum to ask this in...And I dont have the book with me.

In regards to Physical Adepts:

Sustenance (sota2064)- 3hrs sleep. 1 Meal a Day. etc. Does this result in a lifestyle cost reduction?

The adept version of expanded digestion (not sure on the name, sota2064 and M&M), lifestyle cost reduction for that one too? I would think so as the Bioware equivalent has a reduction.

Senses - There are some new "senses" and sense modifications from M&M. Spatial Recognizer, Balance whatever(the inner ear one) etc, Ultrasonic Vision, etc. Are they available as Adept powers?

I understand Ultrasonic vision uses a transmitter. I would think that the adept could duplicate everything except for the transmitter(Adept powers of Ultrasonic Vision and High Frequency Hearing would let the adept hear and then see the ultrasound). If that is the case then What would be the essence/nuyen cost of the Ultrasonic Transmitter in the eye.

Kinesics (spelling? sota2064) - Says you get an extra die per level for charisma related tests. Does this include skill tests with charisma as the base attribute (etiquette, negotiation, leadership etc), or only tests specifically using Charisma dice? Wouldnt that apply to conjuring too? (assuming magicians way adept)

More to follow.

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 9 2004, 10:41 PM

Well, I can answer some now, but need the books for others:

Posted by: Dr. Black Nov 15 2004, 06:47 PM

Couple of Questions:

Which mission marks the official beginning of the 2 year story arc?

When will characters be able to initiate?

When will characters be able to join or form groups, secret societies etc.?

Thanks.

Posted by: Casazil Nov 15 2004, 07:23 PM

Just a shot in the dark but as to becoming an initiate I would think just as soon as you have the karma. Which is alot!

As to groups Bitrunner has stated that they are working up some stuff on 1 (or was it more than 1) group we just have to be patient. Secret societies on the other hand I have no Idea on.

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 15 2004, 08:27 PM

Story arc adventures start with SRM01-
the first of which is SRM01-01 Double Cross, which debuted at Gencon 2004.
SRM01-02 and SRM01-03 are currently in edit and will be out soon...

You can self-initiate as soon as you have the Karma requirement met. If you wish to initiate with a Group, you have to wait until the main groups are created (soon) or create your own group through a Commando that will act as your "Avatar" and group sponsor (general house rules for this coming soon also)

Other groups/secret societies: will follow generally the process as above for Initiatory groups. Secret Societies are something that will be created at the campaign level as they are story driven. Policlubs and social groups will be, for the most part, also done at a campaign level, but once you see how they are set up, if you have a good idea for one, you can send it in for approval and you'll need to find a Commando to sponsor the group as the "patron". Once it is approved and sponsored, you can start recruiting other members in-character...

Posted by: Donner Nov 22 2004, 05:31 PM

Rich, a question re the calendars. I understand how they work, in principal. However, does the year change to 2065 in 2005, or at the end of the first year of the "story arc"?

If the year switched with the Real Life Year, I foresee the possibility of having 5 or 6 "blank" months at the end of a year (or more). At the rate at which the Green missions seem to pay, it would use up all of my nuyen just to maintain a Low lifestyle, much less actually save to buy anything. While the next "level" up of missions might pay considerably more, if in RL I cannot *play* those missions (because they haven't been released or because of the difficulty of getting to a con or finding a local Commando), then again I have a Big Blank Spot to pay for.

Would it be legit, if that happened, to simply re-do the calendar and presume that the first mission wasn't in "January"?

Of course, if the year change is mutable, this may be moot.

Posted by: linei Nov 22 2004, 05:38 PM

I think youre question has been answered before in the thread "Lifestyle Costs" ... you may read it http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=5147&hl=

Posted by: Donner Nov 22 2004, 07:00 PM

Posted by: Dr. Black Nov 29 2004, 06:35 AM

SOTA Rules - Are they gonna be a factor for SRM?

Also, I have 3 characters wanting to form a group, start initiating etc., is there a Commando out there who is willing to handle this online for us? Can a GM take care of it?

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 29 2004, 05:03 PM

Dr. Black-

SOTA rules - if you're addressing the rules for SOTA advancement, no we're not, unless it comes up as part of the story arc...

rules in the SOTA books: yes, as long as they don't say optional or advanced or somehow indicated that they are "extra". so, things like the Lockpicking skill in SOTA:2063 are used...

Forming your own initiation group - send me an email or personal message and let me know your area. i'll see if there is a Commando close by or one willing to sponsor you...

Posted by: Donner Nov 29 2004, 06:18 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 29 2004, 08:20 PM

Keep in mind that there will be campaign level groups for those looking to initiate - you don't have to form a group unless you want to or for some reason don't like the main group.

there will be a separate initiatory group for hermetics (including sorcerers and conjurers), shamans (all types) and adepts (mostly combat / stealth oriented adepts). all three groups will have an exclusivity stricture, meaning that you cannot belong to another initiatory group.

Posted by: Donner Nov 29 2004, 09:37 PM

Posted by: Donner Nov 29 2004, 09:45 PM

BTW, it would be nice if each group could have a thread here on Dumpshock. so that members could RP in character. That way, if players chance to meet in RL at cons, their characters might even have a little "backstory" off which to RP.

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 29 2004, 10:25 PM

oh, i'm swamped with editing right now...

my plan has always been to have them done by the end of the year - kind of a Xmas present thing.

i figured between Gencon (when interest in Missions picked up speed) and the end of the year would be enough time to have a lot of people play the intro adventures and gain enough karma for initiation...

don't know about each group having a thread here...i'll have to think about that - there are reasons some groups may not wish to post certain topics!

just to wet your appetites:

* the groups are not connected to the story arc...yet...
* each group will have lifestyle and/or equipment cost reductions
* each group will be totally different from the others...
* player characters will eventually have an opportunity to take part in the leadership and direction of the group
* certain officers in the group may be granted additional abilities by their avatar while serving
* groups will have special opportunities at interactives or other special events.
* anyone in the campaign that meets the criteria can join - this allows those that play in Germany or in the middle of Alabama with no nearby groups to get the benefits of group initiation. Note that "home" groups will have as one of their requirements that you must adventure with someone before inviting them. this should ideally occur during roleplaying.

Posted by: Donner Nov 29 2004, 10:55 PM

Posted by: Dr. Black Nov 30 2004, 06:29 AM

I like what I'm reading. I may be able to hold off a month before joining/initating. Heck, probably have enough karma by then to get a couple of inits.

Posted by: SaintHax Nov 30 2004, 04:40 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 30 2004, 04:48 PM

if the group offered living accomodations and the member accepts the offer...

Posted by: SaintHax Nov 30 2004, 05:53 PM

Posted by: Donner Nov 30 2004, 09:43 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 30 2004, 11:27 PM

there is that too, but i'm looking at the Lifestyle rules in the SSG and working with that...tied in with your second point...

Posted by: Donner Dec 1 2004, 04:47 PM

OK, here's one that would be important to me if I became a Commando/GM, also.

In several places, bitrunner, you've indicated that GMs can take the part of the Johnson and roleplay allowing expenses, or perhaps providing specific gear in lieu of extra nuyen, as a result of negotiations. It may be that such things are cheaper for the Johnson.

All makes sense, well and good. This introduces a sense of reality to the hook scene, but one must be careful not to let it be abused. This then brings up the question of table parity, as follows.

Are Commandos are actually empowered to make this kind of decision in a scenario, or do they go by "what's written"? I know that in many other campaigns, Judges are very reluctant to take that kind of initiative for fear of negative feedback: "so-and-so let his player team negotiate that bennie; our team wasn't allowed to, what gives?"

This might be "Secret Commando Info" or something (although one can GM without being a Commando), but is there a guideline as to what "extras" can be negotiated, or is it all left up to common sense (which tends to vary from situation to situation)?

E.g.: team does a run for Ares. Judge thinks it's reasonable for them to negotiate some APDS ammo, or a military item that would ordinarily be beyond their reach on the streets. A different Judge might think not, with exactly the same players under the same situation. This is especially likely to come up if players try for something not available at creation (say Availability 10, or one of the "forbidden military code letters"), but which makes perfect sense in the context of the scenario situation.

It's the old problem of balance between laying it all out and being prescriptive ("there are some questions you don't want answered") and not laying it out and having wildly different interpretations.

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 1 2004, 06:20 PM

i see your point - i guess i'll have to add that to my list - acceptable "wiggle room" in negotiations...

quickly, what it is meant for is stuff like consumables - ammo, medical supplies, etc that the runners would use in the normal cost of "doing business"...extending this to magic is a little expensive in comparison to this stuff though, so would normally be excluded above a certain price range...if you wanted 1 or 2 thousand in conjuring materials, or 1,000 nuyen in expendable fetishes, that's one thing, but double the cost of the run for conjuring materials is a little ridiculous in most cases...you might as well hire another NPC for that price and get better flexibility (at least from the Johnson's standpoint)...ammo would be regular ammo for non-gunnery guns...

cut rates on medical expenses incurred, or even full coverage, is open...

just about anything with an Availability of 24 hours or less is open...other special equipment would be on a case by case basis - if the team is hired to break into a lab that they know has a keypad lock, and they don't have a sequencer, then they might be able to negotiate for one up to level 6, even if it would normally take more than 24 hours - so i guess tack on the Rating of 6 or less, as an exception for the Availability rule...

discounts on cyber/bioware would be warranted if related to the company that is hiring the runners. IE, if you're working for Rose Croix, and you know it, you might be able to wrangle a discount on some basic (NOT CULTURED) bioware and the surgery costs to implant it after the run is finished...

i figured most of this stuff would be common sense...but then again, i guess not...

being a Commando doesn't add to the Negotiation rolls...

Posted by: Donner Dec 1 2004, 06:26 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 1 2004, 09:30 PM

what's so big about surgery costs?? you get cyber/bioware, you need to have surgery.

Now, as far as SR Missions goes, you have two choices - either pay the flat fee for surgery as per the basic books healing costs, or if you have the opportunity to visit a clinic (during an interactive, through a Commando, etc), and you want to risk it, you can use the full rules for surgery, creating the procedure, etc and take your chances. You might get lucky and get reduced essence on cyberware, and all that, or you might end up with the 2 bad things...

Posted by: Donner Dec 1 2004, 09:42 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 2 2004, 12:12 AM

as for the money curve, well, i'll say this...

don't be planning on getting any betaware or cultured bioware until you've reached "Professional" level - unless you REALLY want it and have saved up just about everything you can, i doubt you'll be able to afford it...deltaware, nanotech and gene therapy won't be available until starting around the middle of "Veteran" level.

# * Level * Total Career Good Karma
1 * Green * 0 - 19
2 * Streetwise * 20 - 49
3 * Professional * 50 - 89
4 * Veteran * 90 - 149
5 * Elite * 150 - 249
6 * Prime Runner * 250 +

Posted by: Rev Dec 2 2004, 02:29 AM

Standard grade cyberware installation surgeries without positive options in sr3 under the m&m surgery rules cost about 16,000Y whether it is a fingertip compartment, or wired reflexes 3. The only important difference is the wound level you will be left with and the cost to heal that.

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 2 2004, 02:55 AM

right, so if Mr. J says:
"Do this little job for me, and my superiors are prepared to offer you a chance to have access to our clinic for 50% of our normal fees for any surgery and recuperating time you need."
your answer should be something like:
"hell yeah, brother!"

that's a base of 8,000 nY worth just for the surgery, and then savings on the hospital costs for the time needed to heal the wound...

Posted by: Rev Dec 2 2004, 04:22 AM

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 2 2004, 03:22 PM

no - otherwise you could have a new character grouped with a bunch of elite characters and end up getting stuff before their time...

as you advance, each character will get pay and benefits commensurate with their reputation.

right now, you're all independent contractors...when you're hired for a run, you're called separately and meet at the gathering site with the Johnson or Fixer. In most instances, you aren't going to know who you're working with...this means you will all be judged and paid individually - normally, the situation should be that you're all grouped around the same rep level, but in those instances (which will become more occurant as players spread out their time available to do missions) where there is a disparity, don't think your character is going to get a free ride by association...yeah, you might get a run where the Johnson/Fixer pays you the same as an Elite guy when you're only Street, but you better watch yourself, because that means the overall challenge for your character might be more than for the other guy...

Posted by: Rev Dec 2 2004, 06:30 PM

Ahh ok. I was hoping it would be that way!

BTW does anybody know where in SR3 there are rules for surgery costs? I was looking last night and the only thing I found was in the healing section it said that the gm would set cost and difficulty for replacement surgery, but it seemed to be talking more about replacing a shot off limb with either a cyber or organic replacement.

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 2 2004, 08:09 PM

there isn't anything canon in the core rules other than on the charts where it tells you doctor and hospital fees...as GM, you are supposed to tell the character how much "wound level" he has sustained from the implant surgery.

without using M&M, i rule the following:
Essence Wound Level from Surgery
0.1 - 1.0 Light
1.1 - 2.0 Moderate
2.1 - 4.0 Serious
4.1 + Deadly

YMMV...

Posted by: Donner Dec 20 2004, 03:23 AM

Regarding the Exclusive modifier for the purpose of reducing "Karma to learn", and target, by 2. This has a minimum of 1 Karma, I would anticipate? Or do the few spells that would be useful as Force 2 exclusives cost only time and nuyen to learn?

Posted by: Fortune Dec 20 2004, 04:22 AM

According to Rob Boyle (when he was answering rule questions), there is no restriction (other than GM common sense) on characters having a handful of Force 2 Exclusive (or Force 1 with Fetish) for no karma cost, even at chargen.

Not that this necessarily applies to SRM though.

Posted by: Donner Dec 22 2004, 04:14 PM

Posted by: OurTeam Dec 24 2004, 07:17 AM