Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Caine Hazen Aug 6 2010, 01:18 AM

Ok, the topic has cropped up more than once in multiple threads, so lets get it out here. Why aren't the missions paying you enough? What are you doing with your character and your money? I have heard that sometimes a person walks away almost not breaking even for a mission, why is this? What were the expenses incured? Let's here the examples of what happened here, and see what we can determine by looking at them.

Posted by: TranKirsaKali Aug 6 2010, 02:00 AM

The complaints I have heard have to do more with non Shaman/Mages. They have to do with the cost of equipment and ware. It takes quite a bit to buy good guns, ammo you want, new drones, vehicles, cyber/bio ware, ect. Especially if you are having to spend money to get items to you faster so that it can be done with a face character. The higher the rating on the item the more expensive it is to purchase.

Personally, I have plenty of money. But then the only things I buy foci, clothes, stuff for my shamantic lodge, lifestyle and well clothes. Not that I am a clothes shopper, but dang it real leather and cotton clothes are expensive! Being non technological has it's advantages. Oh that reminds me I need to buy a weapon focus soon! lol need to cut up those spirits that want to hurt me.

Posted by: suoq Aug 6 2010, 02:38 AM

These are notes from a player's point of view. My GM or anyone else can tell me I'm wrong. I may well be. After all, I don't have the modules to see is my impression is correct.

Issue #1: It seems that my Affiliate(s) is paying me much more than my Johnson.

Having recently read the discussion on affiliates (they don't call us, we call them, selling out our team in the hope of something good), I'm disturbed by the whole process.

1) We get a job and negotiate a price.
2) I rat out my teammates, my fixer, and Mr. Johnson.
3) I do this tiny side job that takes no where near as much planning as the main job.
4) I show up the next week driving a Hotspur.
5) No one notices.

Issue #2: I get offered X to do a job and then I get offered 1/10 of X to do the job again after I agree to never do that job again. Some of these guys think they can get away with blackmailing me into doing the second job for nothing, or worse, cry and I'll drive to the scene of the crime and become their daddy. Show me the money because I'm tired of taking jobs because the module needs me to take the job.

Issue #3: I'm a face. I'm wearing Burwick to this meeting. I have a high lifestyle because I want to live somewhere with a dry cleaners. I'm not a ganger, don't treat me like one. There are times I want to call my fixer and explain to him that he's fired for wasting my time.

Proposed Solution(s):
Honestly, as someone doing the shopping, I'd be happy to:
1) Get paid/offered more by the Johnson, consistently.
2) Have an affiliate that will allow me to purchase multiple hard to get items in less than a day. (Buying a new gun and accessories can take over a week because of the dang 1 day interval minimum for every single part. And then someone with a shop has to assemble it.)
3) Or Have an affiliate that will let me purchase an item on discount. So instead of grabbing all the affiliate rewards and I can and hitting the black market for cash, the affiliates would let me buy an available upgrade at black market prices. (get paid more for doing the job, pay to get the Hotspur at a discount if I do the side job.)

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 6 2010, 10:31 AM

Because the only way to get some of the more expensive gear is to start the game with it or rob/organleg a PC for it. Its several books of shadowrun filled with items I can honestly tell a new player "No no, dont plan on ever getting Move by Wire 2 Betaware in play, Missions doesnt put enough nuyen into play to ever make that feasible."

I appreciate the need for controls on growth especially in a competitive group but it denies the cash-dependant character growing and doesnt phase the karma dependant character.

For example, lets say a runner consistently averages 4 karma and 8$ nuyen per run and does 25 runs. The runner now has 200k nuyen and 100 karma. Thats enough karma to initiate or submerge 6 times and have 21 karma put towards the 35 karma cost of a 7th magic or resonance point or bonding cost of foci.
(Calcs: 5 to join a group then 8,10,11,13,15,17 to initiate)

Compare 6 levels of initiation to 'ware costing 200k and I know *I* at least find the 6 levels of initiation/submerging to be more effective both in terms of their increased effect (Centering 6 adding 6 drain dice, for example) and in terms of adding depth to a character. My SRM TM with his 6 levels of submerging might as well wear a cape he gets such oddball combinations of run-altering strangeness. (Mesh Reality echo+Skinlink echo, rawr)

A way to convert karma to money would help alleviate this so there is still a finite reward being given that can be tailored to the needs of the character. It allows 'ware-based characters to become more powerful in a game where magic already scales well and hackers can start with endgame amounts of hacking implants and custom commlinks all clustered together. The only role screwed by the money is the sam really since there is a way albeit difficult to capture drones.

Posted by: Al Kusanagi Aug 7 2010, 04:21 AM

I don't see how it would be game-breaking to allow karma for money since there are already guidelines in place. In character creation, 1CP = 5000ny. The precedent set by gaining/losing qualities says 1CP = 2 karma. Therefore, 2 karma = 5000ny.

Personally, I'd rather have the karma (but I don't need too many new toys as a face), but if someone wants to make the sacrifice, more power to them.

Posted by: Mesh Aug 7 2010, 05:19 PM

Hi, everyone. This is good feedback, and the Missions team is aware of the issues raised about how much nuyen is offered as well as the affiliation system. Season 04 has some great new changes that should keep things interesting and hopefully more lucrative. This is a good time to post your feedback and suggestions so keep them coming and be ready for a fantastic return to Seattle!

Mesh

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 9 2010, 12:59 AM

This is brilliant and clean. I hope this gets added.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Aug 11 2010, 02:22 PM

Gencon is now over so I can hopefully address this.

There are a couple of unique problems missions has with pay because of it's structure. For me personally most of my characters like to maintain a middle or higher lifestyle. They are risking their lives on a daily basis so no reason not to live it up. Granted there is no requirement they live at this level, many people live at the squatter level without real penalty. There is no problem with that but because of the way lifestyles are structured you basically have one option that's just flat superior.

There is a further complication, no matter if a run takes ten minutes or a week it always takes up a week on the calendar unless it takes more then a week at which point it rounds up to two. That means if a run takes an hour it needs to clear at least 1250 minimum to cover lifestyle alone at the medium level. This doesn't even consider ammo, bribes, and specialized gear that might be needed and repairing or replacing any gear damaged or destroyed.

Then there's the actual buying of gear. I really feel that the availability rules, combined with the extended test rules, combined with the downtime dice buying mechanic really create a perfect storm of trouble when it comes to gear buying. Perhaps such difficulty was the intent. The rapid rate of diminishing returns mean that not only are you waiting months for most pieces (either having to go without or pay lifestyle to sit and wait) but you must pay hugely inflated prices just to ensure your dicepool is big enough to actually get the gear.

This and the patently ridiculous costs of even alpha grade ware means that once a non magical character has started play their advancement is pretty well stalled. Vehicles and drones are actually more feasible and software is actually possible if you go through the hoops to get access to a pirated network. Weapons can be got if you have a large enough dice pool as their relatively low cost.

I've had two runs recently where I did not break even Something Completely Different starts with the premise that you have agreed to a stupid job for stupid pay and also taken leave of your senses and agreed to have your memories wiped as part of the stupid job for stupid low pay. Which leads most characters to the logical conclusion that they are being screwed with and I have personally seen it put the most peaceful low impact runners in a murderous mood.

I think Spin Control was another mission that I lost money, not only was the pay insulting for the work required.



Personally I could go without ever seeing another module that wines and dines the runners, tells them how they've never tasted/smelled food like this before or how swanky the digs are or how they've finally made the big time and then offers us 5k for a weeks worth or work and getting shot at.

I would like to see jobs pay a lot more but also involve more risk, more explosions and yes occasionally there should be a job where you don't get paid or you get betrayed or something similar, both should be part of Shadowrun.

Posted by: Bull Aug 11 2010, 06:44 PM

Couple things to keep in mind...

1) Missions players are expected to go on 2-3 Missions per month. Keep in mind that the availability and wait time rules do not mean that you cannot run during thius period. It's just a "Wait time" that represents contacts finding things, shipping things, smuggling it across borders, etc.

2) You are not supposed to be doing major upgrades every couple of gaming sessions. A new gun, maybe, some new ammo, ok. But upgrading Alpha to Beta, or getting Move by Wire? That's a serious step up in the power level, and is something characters should only do every great once in a while. That's something you save for over a long period of time.

Everyone has different views of what Shadowrun is, and how it should be played. This is a challenge that we face with Missions all the time. We have to balance power scale, player power escalation, keeping the runs interesting and occasionally different, and overall hoping that everyone has fun.

Bull

Posted by: Chance359 Aug 11 2010, 07:06 PM

Given how it's easier and more effective (dice wise) for a face type character to look for an upgrade rather than go through your contact, thats time that the face has to spend out pounding the pavement looking for a someones new toy.

I agree upgrading some a piece of ware shouldn't happen every single game session, but the progression should be kept more equal between mundanes (with augmentations), magically active (initiation), and submersions.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Aug 11 2010, 07:07 PM

Except for the fact that going from Alpha to Beta isn't a step up in power level, it is a huge investment that allows you to at some point make another huge investment that will then actually increase your power level. As Wasabi said there's really no argument for limiting character advancement when on the magic side of the house it's easy to initiate/submerge every few sessions. If balance of power and play are the metric that's being sought we're actually failing that metric.

The biggest problem is right now you make a cybered character at start they are the best they are going to be ware wise as you will never see that kind of money again. I think everyone that plays Shadowrun is playing a professional criminal, that's something that's right on the tin. I think most people want to be successful professional criminals and see some growth in their character. After all that's the benefit of a living campaign versus a one shot adventure. Where things break down is if past mission frameworks are used cybered characters are at an extreme disadvantage as while SRM is actually right where it needs to be khamra wise it's significantly underpaying folks.

Posted by: Bull Aug 11 2010, 07:11 PM

Well.. Keep in mind that most major augmentations give more of a stat boost than a single initiation or a single point of magic. Plus, Non Magical characters are buying stats and skills with the karma that mages and technos are sinking into these as well.

Plus, right now, with a group and an ordeal, you're looking at a minimum of 2 game sessions to get the karma to do that. And that will quickly rise to 3 game sessions. Raising your magic rating is likely even more sessions...

And use your contacts, don't abuse your face. That's what they're there for. If you're a face and wasting all your time to save a few nuyen or cut a couple weeks off the shipping time, well.. That's your own damn fault for being the teams personal shopper

Bull

Posted by: Bull Aug 11 2010, 07:15 PM

Lurker: THis is why you raise stats and skills. A measure of a street samurai is not the metal inside, it's the mettle of the man.

Bull

Posted by: Chance359 Aug 11 2010, 07:19 PM

Why should I have any contact but a 1/1 fixer who calls me? I've picked up a decent selection of them from playing missions (love Peace man btw). We've had faces sit at our tables earn more from other players by hunting down gear for them then they did from doing a job.

Since the missions seasons are so short, if I'm going to have any hope of ever seeing gear that will upgrade my character, I do need the face out there beating bushes trying to shave those WEEKS off getting me my new toy. And its never saves me any money.

Posted by: Bull Aug 11 2010, 07:31 PM

<shrug> Conversely, we don't have a "team face" for the Missions I've played in, so we rely solely on contacts for gear. And it's not been an issue in the least.

Like I said, you want the face doing all the work for you, that's fine, but bear in mind the costs and the time associated with that then.

Bull

Posted by: RobertB Aug 11 2010, 07:37 PM

Easily said, but...

Peaceman

Charisma - 3
Negotiation - 3
Connection Rating - 3

Because of both the buying hits and limited extended test rules enforced in Missions, he has nine dice to throw on an extended availability test. Lesse, that's 2+2+1+1+1+1 or 8 hits total. Woot! I can have him get me a Laser Microphone!

I'm not trying to be snide. This is just the reality that we live in with Missions.

Robert (aka Spanner)

Posted by: Chance359 Aug 11 2010, 07:56 PM

I dont want the face doing "all the work for me", I want someone who can actually get me the gear I want for my character to progress. And as it sits right now, it's better for the tables I sit at for someone to bring a disposable face for gear hunting.

Posted by: DWC Aug 11 2010, 07:56 PM

It gets worse, a Charisma 2, completely socially unskilled troll tank with 10 street cred dice backing him up is better at acquiring gear than Peaceman. Loan him someone's Empathy software, and spend 4 karma on 1 rank of Negotiation, and he's better than any NPC fixer in the campaign.

Across the board, the NPC fixers are terrible. They take forever to find things and generally end up with extremely low limits on what they can acquire because of the restriction on buying hits.

Hell, I'll throw it out there.

Assuming the campaign will allow it, for a low, low 30% of list price, I'll offer up my PC's services locating gear. My Availability cap (buying hits) is in the 70s, and I'm getting 5 hits per test for the first 7 tests.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Aug 11 2010, 07:56 PM

Don't forget you could double the cost or so to increase the availability to 10. Excitement!

I have to ask Bull what is your team buying that their getting by on peaceman and others? For me it was a coup to score Ruby someone with both good skills and a high connection rating. She's now my go to gal for a lot of regular purchases but she's still worthless if I actually wanted a high ticket cyberware.

I remember a conversation with one of the writers back in the second or third edition days that the availability system was never meant to be the be all end all of gear buying, you don't roll up to the crime mall and then roll your negotiation against a test and then hang out a few weeks, sometimes there are in game ways to get things beyond the pure mechanic, I would like to see more of that.

Posted by: Fringe Aug 11 2010, 08:32 PM

I think that's part of what the Affiliate rewards are supposed to do...to get you more gear without Availability issues.

With my mage, I'm "rolling" something like 15 dice (Charisma 7 + Glamour (3 dice) + Influence 1 + Street Cred 4) for finding gear (so I can get an Availability 12 item in 4 tests). I usually find the big-ticket stuff myself, and let my contacts find smaller stuff for me so I'm not wasting my time. Or I could get really abusive and pick up an emotitoy or Empathy software...but I don't think that really fits the character. Oddly, 15 dice puts me about in the middle of my experience; I'm about 50/50 between being the team's face and being the assist to someone who has like 20-25 dice.

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 12 2010, 03:33 AM

With a connection rating of 3 Peaceman charges 15% of the purchase cost as commission so if you have him buy something costing 8334 nuyen or higher he costs more than a week of middle lifestyle.

Posted by: Fringe Aug 12 2010, 09:52 AM

True, and I've been tracking that separately on my Missions logs. I haven't used him for anything close to that price, though...probably a factor of 10 less. But (to me) it's not so much the commission as the Availability number usually attached to something that costs that much, combined with the Availability interval of 2 days (SR4A, p 312).

As Robert calculates, Peaceman can't get anything above Availability 8, and it takes him 6 intervals to get even that. But Peaceman is an "average" fixer; 3 is human average in Charisma and skill 3 represents professional competency (SR4A, p 68). Connection 3 is about what one might expect for an average fixer, according to the table on SR4A, p 286. So this is probably the sort of fixer one might expect to be the norm in the Shadowrun world.

What does that mean for finding hard-to-find gear? Find a better-than-average fixer, or expect to pay more for your gear (using the cash-for-dice rule on SR4A, p 312). Or hire a "personal shopper" (as Bull puts it), if you really trust a shadowrunner...

Posted by: jakephillips Aug 12 2010, 01:04 PM

Isn't street cred limited by your charisma? So a troll with Cha 1 could only use 1 street cred in finding gear?

Posted by: Fringe Aug 12 2010, 01:16 PM

Quite right. "The Street Cred dice bonus can never exceed the character's Charisma." (SR4A, p 265, last sentence under Street Cred Uses) Notoriety, however, seems to suffer no such limitation (positive or negative)...or at least I didn't see such a rule.

Oddly, that just gives that troll the incentive to do nasty things to gain Notoriety, just so he can burn off Street Cred (lose 2 Street Cred to lose 1 Notoriety, p 265) and thus reduce his Public Awareness.

Posted by: DWC Aug 12 2010, 01:26 PM

I stand corrected. Forgot about that in my little fit of nerd rage over how useless NPC fixers tend to be.

Edit: I knew there was a reason I wanted to start sacking Street Cred to ditch the Notoriety I got for getting burned by Saeder-Krupp and couldn't remember what it was. That would certainly do it.

Posted by: Aaron Aug 12 2010, 01:43 PM

Wait, you're asking Peaceman, a Neo-Anarchist (and, incidentally, a freebie) for your guns? If it was my character, I'd have spent a few CP on a Fixer (p. 290, SR4A) with a decent Connection rating. At the same Connection rating as Peaceman, that's Availability 18 goods before adding additional incentive. That covers pretty much anything you might need (I suppose you could cry about the Panther XXL or the Mitsubishi Yakusoku MRL, but you could always drown your sorrows in that Rating 3 synaptic booster).

It's Shadowrun: you get what you pay for. Don't rely on freebies.

Posted by: Chance359 Aug 12 2010, 02:08 PM

My point is its not even worth it to buy even a remotely functional fixer as a contact because I face will run circles around him.

Posted by: DWC Aug 12 2010, 02:09 PM

I don't know about you, but I'm not paying an NPC 48k to spend 8 weeks finding me a R3 synaptic booster. The current payscale also won't support spending the 290k that I'd need to lay out to get it either.

Posted by: SaintHax Aug 12 2010, 02:39 PM

Very true. Any good face has a DP of 20 and can get availability 41 items Or, Avialability 21 items in half the time as the fore mentioned Fixer gets Availability 18 items.

No one is talking about the elephant in the room: the problem is the rules are busted. For one, consider how little connection rating does, compared to its fluff and cost. The connection rating should at least add that many automatic successes, but it adds that many dice for very little gain. The pay for missions isn't even bad, but the lack of everything else is what's sucking.

Posted by: Dumori Aug 12 2010, 02:53 PM

Blackmarket pipe line seams to drop the commission as well as the 30% discount. How ever the commission mechanic was not thought though it means trying to get any via a group contact will be costing almost as much as you'd pay for the base-item...

At least the commission should be inplace for say getting a gun off your arms dealer contact it's not like hes then going round looking for other arms dealer to see if they have it ect he'll go to his supply contacts and buy from them for an increase already factored in to the guns price. Also yes a face will beat the shit out of a fixer and cost you less.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Aug 12 2010, 04:05 PM

Actually the pay is that bad, it's just sometimes you can supplement that income through other sources. The problem is when you get offered 4-8k for a mission involving bug spirits or blowing up a major landmark.

Posted by: DWC Aug 12 2010, 10:11 PM

Actually, I'd love to see Connection Rating reduce the Threshold, since that's more in line with the existing mechanics. Reducing the interval might be nice, too.

Posted by: Fringe Aug 12 2010, 10:50 PM

And that would give an actual reason for a PC face to use a fixer. The fixer's full-time job is finding, buying, and selling black market stuff; in a stat-less world, I'd expect the fixer to have an easier time of it than a shadowrunner who is doing it part-time (at best).

Posted by: codemonkey_uk Aug 16 2010, 01:01 PM

Are players supplementing their income by fencing loot (ie, guns/ammo) they picked up on the mission, or only relying on the payments they get for for the job?

I'd figure the typical dead guard has a lot of valuable gear on them.

Posted by: SaintHax Aug 16 2010, 01:16 PM

There's many problems with this.

1. You can only fence gear for 10% of it's value. The RAW state 30%, iirc, but this is a "Mission special".
2. Vulture syndrom...
2a. in an on going campaign, stealing from incapacitated guards, or excessive equipment (such as construction vehicles, etc) can bring unwanted attention. Public Awarness can come into play. SRM can't deal with this.
2b. From a role playing stand point, very experienced shadowrunners stopping to take a 200 nuyen comlink off a fallen opponent is lame. It's doubtful that someone with 200k nuyen in the bank, 100+ career karma would waste time carrying five Ares Predators and 5 basic comm units, but I've watched players do it. It's easy, b/c you don't have to juggle that stuff in real life.
3. Rule 1 (lame) is to prevent problem 2 (also lame), b/c no one has a better solution.

Posted by: RobertB Aug 16 2010, 01:19 PM

From the Missions FAQ:

Can I fence the gear I found during an adventure?
You may sell back items which you find during the adventure at 10% of retail (book) value. If it is damaged, you’ll be lucky to get anything for it, unless it is a very expensive or unusual item. Vehicles, drones, commlinks, and similar equipment can usually be fenced if they have taken three (3) or less boxes of damage, but be prepared to get much lower payout on these items.

and

Can I buy used cyberware or get it from “former enemies?”
Used cyberware is not available at character creation (Second Hand Cyberware, p. 32, Augmentation). Cyberware harvested from former enemies cannot be implanted into a new host and cannot be fenced; we suggest leaving it in the former enemies.


So, you're not getting a lot from fencing stuff.

Robert (aka Spanner)

Posted by: Chance359 Aug 16 2010, 02:19 PM

I mean if you're able to get enough money together to actually improve your ware/gear, that would be unbalanced.

Posted by: Aaron Aug 16 2010, 03:25 PM

Actually, I think you'll find that if you go by strict RAW, looted gear is worth either 10% or nothing, depending on the GM's take. If you take a look at the Street Costs table on p. 312 of your hymnal, you'll see that used is -20%, used in a crime under investigation is -10%, and stolen is -20%. I believe the 10% value rule for Missions was a concession by management to make sold goods worth something, rather than nothing.

Posted by: SaintHax Aug 16 2010, 04:07 PM

Aaron, you are looking at values used to "buy" (that table is addressed in "Street Values" paragraph, which talks about buying loot, and before Fencing) stolen goods. After that, there is a section on Fencing, which states average asking price is 30% normal value. The very definition of "fencing" makes the item stolen, so SR4 has taken in the various variables and given you a nice, easy 30% number. Later they do mention that condition may factor in.

It's not 100% cut and dry, spelled out for you-- fewer things are in this edition than the last. However, it would be simply ludicris to think that SR4 would down grade a stolen panther assualt canon you used in a crime to a 0 nuyen value if you tried to fence it. In addition, if you are of the church of table "Street Costs" applies to fencing loot still; then you'd still not be selling at 10%. A 100 nuyen piece of swag, starts at 30 nuyen to fence. It's stolen, blah, blah for another -30%. The price you get is then 21 nuyen. Seventy % of 30 is 21, which is over double 10% of market value.

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Aug 16 2010, 04:10 PM

In smaller payout missions, it is up to the GM and the player to work out some kind of a contact-related scheme to get some new 'ware. Doing favors for people that sell or implant cyberware can earn a samurai a piece of new gear 'at cost' - 20% of the book listed price or some such. There is nothing in Missions that I know of that states a player can't receive payment 'in kind'. Basically, the low run payouts in Missions shouldn't limit the player or GM's creativity in finding new and other ways to justify high ticket items.

Posted by: Aaron Aug 16 2010, 05:04 PM

That's true, but I'm also looking at the section following it. Specifically, the last sentence of the paragraph that puts the base price at 30%. Then I talk about the GM's take in my post. I'm guessing you don't like the idea of the GM modifying the price of goods sold by PCs with the same criteria as those sold by NPCs, which is fine at a private table, but I can't agree with for a shared-universe type game.


Oh, I don't think it's zero (although I'm sure a fence would take it from you for free), but it might be "not interested." Fences aren't ATM machines, y'know, or Final Fantasy shops; they need to be able to store the goods without fear of arrest or retribution and sell those goods for a profit.


That's exactly the thinking that was one side of the argument when it came up when I was co-coordinator. The other side was zero. Did I mention that 10% was a compromise figure? I'm sorry, I didn't make that clear. Some folks wanted 20%, some wanted zero, so we went with 10% so that players could get something. Maybe you could convince Bull to make it 20%, or 30%, or even 100%. But whether you agree with it or not, that's the history.

Posted by: DWC Aug 16 2010, 05:06 PM

The "payments in kind" are the affiliation tasks, where you take on a side job in exchange for the contents of the mystery box.

Setting that aside, there's a massive logistical problem with your solution. Within the bounds of a 3.5 hour convention slot, there's often barely enough time to complete faction tasks and the primary mission. Expecting a GM to come up with an errand on the fly for all 6 PCs at the table so that they can acquire the thing that they want but can't afford because 1 of them sabotaged the job in exchange for the contents of the mystery box (which he is about to find out that he has no use for) is pretty much an impossibility.

Posted by: suoq Aug 16 2010, 06:38 PM

I would love to see more posts like this. It is incredibly comforting to understand the reasoning behind some things. Thank you.

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Aug 16 2010, 07:56 PM

I don't play at Cons.

Posted by: RobertB Aug 16 2010, 08:17 PM

C'mon, you should specify this kind of thing up front. When we discuss Missions, the default assumption is that we're talking about Missions in a convention environment. Home Missions with time to spare are a completely different animal.

Robert (aka Spanner)

Posted by: Fringe Aug 16 2010, 08:34 PM

And as long as such a "contact-related scheme" is consistent with the Mission and SRM rules, I would think that's fine. And my reading is that's what you're trying to do.

Since I do play my Missions character at cons, though, I would try to document everything I could about how it went down, just to make sure my character is still Missions-legal. Not that I've ever seen a full audit done (in a four-hour slot?), but I do try to look at character sheets when I GM.

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Aug 16 2010, 10:47 PM

Emphasis mine.

If I were to GM at a con, I would want people to let me take a look see at their character sheets and I would scowl mighty heavily on someone that is loaded down with things that don't jive. Back it up with some good documentation or bring a new sheet.

@ RobertB: I was not trying to be flip. I did not realize that talking about running missions outside of cons (of which I ran most of Season 1) was not germane to the discussion. I do see, however, that if most of you do in fact play at Cons, then I am the odd man out. Sorry about that.

Posted by: RobertB Aug 16 2010, 11:09 PM

No, no, it IS germane to the discussion. It's just that if you had stated that you only run home Missions in your post, the reply might have been a bit more specific to your situation, instead of one that addresses the problem in a con setting.

Robert (aka Spanner)

Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 17 2010, 01:26 AM

There's two basic differences between a home game and a convention game.

At conventions, usually:

a) You have a hard time limit.

b) Your players have paid money to be at your table.*

Both, unfortunately, tend to discourage heavily auditing characters.

That said, looking over a sheet and pointing out obvious problems isn't a horrible thing. I'd just tell the player to correct the problem instead of telling him to leave/get a new sheet, though.



-karma

* - sometimes a considerable amount of money, between convention fees, table fees, airline fees, and hotel fees

Posted by: Fringe Aug 17 2010, 01:53 AM

Quite right.

I have, however, seen audits done for other games (Living Forgotten Realms) in the context of a 4-hour slot. It's rare, but I've seen it happen.

Posted by: Dreizehn Aug 19 2010, 11:34 AM

I think the real issue with mission payout (in both Karma and cash) is that if the balance is not just right you end up with a considerable power difference at any given table. In a primarily home based (i.e. static party) this is not an issue; however, in a con environment, where some players come out for 1 - 2 sessions and others are out there pretty much the whole con, it becomes quite easy for moderately more experienced players to totally outshine the newer / less used characters. The obvious solution is to implement something like character promotion. Still, at 99 Karma earned vs. 10 karma earned, you're still dealing with the difference of 10+ runs. Unfortunately, I suspect that we do not have the player base to support a more fine tuned structure (30 - 50 karma break points). All of this does point to something else rather interesting. Given the considerable value of gear and ware, tracking money earned and spent (on non-upkeep) would provide an excellent second metric of relative runner power.

Still, easier these days to just find a face to help you with your gear finding needs.

Cheers.

-Morden

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 19 2010, 12:16 PM

A zero-karma character running TR5 runs with an experienced party keeps the same monetary pace. Its about TABLE rating for pay. TABLES that cant handle a big mission are a problem if PC's need to be of similar skill. In a game built on people being specialists my experience has been favorable when including a new player who can think/roleplay well and do one thing decently. The rest is all about sharing the limelight and payouts shouldnt revolve around folks hogging the limelight or doing something better. Its a game about team effort in my book.

Posted by: CrowOfPyke Aug 20 2010, 08:50 PM

After playing a while and seeing the mission pay in Nuyen.... Wow, it's low. If you don't have a good Hacker, or at least a character capable of doing a decent job at hacking, where you can score some extra cash, you're hosed. The face archetype can get a wee little bit more out of those Johnsons that are hiring you, but not much.

Sure, if you play a "low rent" character as I do, you're fine with a small amount of Nuyen. Also, if you play a Mage or Adept or perhaps even a Hacker who only deals with the world of the Matrix... you're probably fine with a low amount of Nuyen.

However... gods help you if you play a Street Samurai that relies on Cyberware or Bioware. Your character will never advance compared to the other characters. Why? You won't EVER be able to afford upgrades to your systems or new enhancements. Ever.

That being said, ANY time you have a chance to score extra cash, YOU JUMP ON IT LIKE A CRAZED MONGOOSE. Can you steal that car or limo and sell it for 10%? Yes? Then do it! Can you hack the payroll system of that pawn shop you were just in and make off with an extra 2000 Nuyen? Then you friggin' do it. Can you round up the guns of the bad guys you just shot up and sell them for 10%? Then do it. Any chance you have to scrounge up the extra cash, you take it.

It would be nice to PLAY SHADOWRUN, instead of a game of "Hunters And Foragers". Me thinks the mission pay is a tad low.

Posted by: Chance359 Aug 20 2010, 09:17 PM

The problem is that because the return for hording loots is so low, most players see that as the reason to simply try and get more of it.

I would like to see a system were cash = karma was used. Say each karma awarded was worth 5000. There would be both a minimum and a maximum for each reward. Base pay would be before TR was added.

Example:

The Johnson pays you 10 grand (and you get rewarded 6 karma) for completing the mission, Mike the mage and Steve the sam each choose how they will be rewarded. Because they are part of a bad ass team, the choose to run the job at TR 6. Mike choses 10K (+TR) and 6 karma for completion, Steve pick 30K (+TR) and 2 Karma. Each character will not their selected reward on their log sheet.

Posted by: Aaron Aug 20 2010, 09:59 PM

...

Are people really expecting 30k each per job in Shadowrun? Or even 10k?

Go back and check out the Contacts and Adventures book that came in your GM's screen. Check out the payments on the sample jobs. I'll list some of them for reference.

5,000¥ for the team
500¥ each plus up to 300¥ per extra day, plus a contact
1,000¥ each per day
2,000�¥ for the team
30,000¥ for the team
500¥ for the team
40,000¥ for the team
1,000¥ for the team
5,000¥ for the team
2,000¥ for the team

Based on this sample, a shadowrunner should earn 1,605¥ per job (maybe two grand if your table has fewer than six players). From the data, I also draw the conclusion that shadowrunning is supposed to have non-standard and wildly varied (and mostly "low" if I read people's expectations correctly) payments, with the occasional big score. I'm thinking the best way to get 30k for a run is to get a character promoted and then play in a prime-runner adventure.

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 20 2010, 10:07 PM

A TR6 team should be worth more to the Johnson than a TR1 team.

Posted by: Chance359 Aug 20 2010, 10:26 PM

I'd multiply any of those prices by TR at the least.

Posted by: DWC Aug 20 2010, 10:47 PM

Compare the jobs in the GM screen to the ones in Ghost Cartels. The ones in Ghost Cartels are also pretty bush league compared to the things we got asked to do in Manhattan and the money is a lot better.

Posted by: Fringe Aug 21 2010, 03:16 AM

Most of these jobs are negotiable as well, some up to double. (The first one on the list is negotiable to 10k plus a 2k bonus.) Granted, that's actually addressed in each Mission.

With a limit of one run per week, your sample average barely covers a Middle Lifestyle, let alone any expenses that might occur (ammo, repair costs, ritual/binding materials, etc.). Also, a couple of these "runs" are jobs that might more reasonably occur in runners' "off-camera" time.

I think what most of us are trying to get at, though, is that there is a disparity between Karma awards and nuyen awards for most jobs. If there were at least a canon way to trade between Karma and nuyen (even at the 2 Karma = 1 BP = 5,000 nuyen rate from comparisons with character creation and advancement), it might be more acceptable. There is precedent for this in the SRM NYC Character Creation and Transfer Guide, in which characters transferring from Denver to Manhattan could sell Karma points for 2,500 nuyen each at the time of transfer.

If as a GM you envision your players playing lowlives (with Low Lifestyle being what they can afford), be prepared for your runners to look for ways to supplement their income and minimize their expenditures. Treat them like lowlives, and they'll start acting the part, resorting to looting bodies, organlegging, etc., to make extra cash--or even to make ends meet. Or even worse, the runners may decide it's more worthwhile to acquire SINs and sell out; the benefits are greater than Low Lifestyle and the personal risk far less.

What I propose is that:

1. The pay offered should be commensurate with the job. I can see a basic datasteal or the ganger favor going for a few hundred. I could see SRM03-02 Block War offering something like this. But most of the Missions are jobs that should pay much higher. I'll point to SRM03-03 Burning Bridges as a prime example: Without spoiling it, the typical runner response is something like: "You want us to do what? And piss off whom? For what you're offering? Next mission, please!" (Or they look for ways to take whatever isn't nailed down as compensation.)

2. The pay offered should be commensurate with the caliber of runners the Johnson is trying to hire. Better runners give a better chance of success. How to scale this? Maybe scale it by Street Cred (which, for the most part, indicates how much Karma a runner has earned) or by Public Awareness (which factors in Notoriety). Both numbers ought to be easily found by a Johnson, if the runner is getting a call at all. Base pay could scale by the table average. The main problem here (if it's a problem) is that the table of "nearly prime" runners gets significantly more money than the "noob" team for mostly the same job.

3. The pay offered should be commensurate with the caliber of the expected opposition. This is the case with current Missions, usually--the Table Rating typically scales the monetary offer well and sometimes scales the opposition well. It's the base pay that sucks for most jobs.

4. Any, all, or none of these could be affected by Negotiation. Maybe swing the table average of Street Cred or Public Awareness (as in #2, if used) by net hits (or a fraction thereof) in the calculation. It's a bit more math on the front end of the Mission, though.

Posted by: suoq Aug 21 2010, 01:39 PM

I'd like to add that the disparity between the affiliate rewards and the above appears to be even worse. Do the right job for the right affiliate and, at random, you don't care if you get paid or not, because you're suddenly sitting on a stash of unobtainium. Just hope that it's the unobtanium you want and not the unobtainium you had been saving up for and just bought a much cheaper version of. If your affiliation reward is what you want, pay ceases to matter. Alas, there's no way to know in advance what it is or negotiate about it. It's odd, because IF they told me, I'd probably be more likely to do the dang job. I'd have a reason to do the job. As it is, I'm expected to ratout my team, screw my team over, get incriminating evidence against myself, all for "what's in the box". It's Escape from New York with a Wheel of Fish reward system.

It makes little sense to expect to earn 1,605¥ per job, with the occasional Luxury Truck thrown in at random. That Luxury Truck can be dumped at 10% for more than you're going to make in all of missions at that pay rate and living with a low lifestyle.

Posted by: Fringe Aug 21 2010, 02:56 PM

I also love when "what's in the box" is completely useless. If, as a mage, I knew the side job was going to compromise the primary mission and then pay (only me, not the whole team) in nontransferable delta clinic access, I'd tell the affiliate to go frag himself.