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Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 8 2010, 09:47 PM

This has been touched on before, but having (finally) read through the Unwired rules, I'm confused as to how things actually work. This: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=31758 is the previous thread on the topic.

As Wasabi explains in that thread, it is simply not possible to be a shadowrunner who uses software with Registration. That thread covered how, for an established character, you can deal. To summarize:

If you have pirated software, you can patch it for a not-too-crazy price, since it's a matter of a few days to find the pirated patches and you only have to pay 10% of the difference between your current degraded version and the full power version, which is even at rating 6, only 1600 nuyen a month. While annoying, this is not unreasonable as an upkeep cost.

The question is: can you start with pirated software? If not, what are you intended to do? So far as I can tell, it is necessary to either have pirated or self-made software. You definitely can't start with self-made software at character creation. If you can't start with pirated software either, this means that you can't play a hacker at character creation (although I suppose you could make a character who is a "hacker" with no programs, then spend the 2-3 days and 9600 nuyen ASAP after your first mission, but this seems really silly if that's your only option).

I do know some GMs will just ignore the "HEY GUYS I HACKED YOUR SYSTEM FIND ME RIGHT HERE" trail that Registration leaves, but I don't think that really addresses the issue since it means that your ability to function is dependent on a GM bending the rules for you. Or is this one of those things that every GM brushes under the rug?

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 9 2010, 12:56 AM

You can spend lifestyle to crack and to make your own software.
All between-runs tests are resolved by buying hits at 4:1 so a dicepool of 12 dice gets 3 hits between runs. (and 15 dice would also get 3 hits)

Your options as I can see them (from the cheap seats as a fellow player) are:
1. Buy a bunch of lifestyle and crack software using that lifestyle. (Between runs may mean you can do it before your first run, ask your GM)
2. Use Registered software at the penalties for using Registered Software
3. Get a copy of cracked programs from a friendly PC hacker and maybe offer to help with patching them.
4. Buy a bunch of lifestyle and code your own software using that lifestyle. (Between runs may mean you can do it before your first run, ask your GM)
5. Buy the cracked software [EDIT: This option added]

I have played with a Hacker in CGL Demo Team GM'd games for years and its never come up with our hacker's registered software so I dont think many GM's know of the rule. Now that my team has to sink nuyen into lifestyle for code-yourself programs we'll get legal (since I just noticed the rule) and afterwards it won't be an issue so I personally suggest asking your GM about doing option 4 using lifestyle bought with starting nuyen.

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 9 2010, 01:11 AM

There's been some "can I do X before starting play" questions, like researching a spell or whatnot, and the answer is generally no.

I don't think there's much point buying legal software then cracking it - you're really always better off pirating it, since the end result is the same, you don't have to crack it yourself, and you don't have to pay 10 times as much. Are there any advantages I'm missing?

3 and 4 both look like sensible options after starting gameplay. There's also 5: just pay the 1600/month and 2-3 days to keep your pirated software up-to-date. The only issue is that none of these are by strict mission standards legal to do before gameplay starts. Now, if you can start out with pirated software by paying the pirate software price out of your starting nuyen, maybe while working on coding your own software as an ongoing way to save money, that's no problem; otherwise, I'm confused as to how you are intended to make a starting hacker PC.



There do seem to be a fair number of rules in Shadowrun that everyone knows are stupid, and that a lot of people don't even know about because every GM ever houserules them away. Missions sort of brings them to the surface with the "by-the-book" rules standards.

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 9 2010, 01:15 AM

'Generally no' and 'GM discretion' or close cousins.

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 9 2010, 01:22 AM

Yeah - I myself would most likely be playing Missions-rules Shadowrun at Con games, so I am very hesitant to make a character who explodes in a puff of code without GM discretion, since I won't necessarily have met the GM before or have a chance to discuss the logistics of software piracy.

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 9 2010, 01:31 AM

Meh, worst cast you skip hacking in game 1 and then take care of it. I fail to see how pregame lifestyle expenditures are unbalancing but whichever. Its not a character explosion but yeah, it could suck for a session. Of course, if there is a runner at the table already with the programs, hey... ka-CHING!

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 9 2010, 02:07 AM

Eh, Hackers can't really do anything too wacky with it. Mages totally can, though - making your own foci is very good.

Are there rules for "skipping" weeks in game? I assumed it was that every mission was a week. Now that I've read some threads on here, it seems like you can pay the Lifestyle cost, not do any shadowruns, and have "spare time" for stuff like building foci or writing code?

Posted by: DWC Aug 9 2010, 02:16 AM

That is correct. You can spend time doing stuff other than working. Regardless of whether you're healing, searching for a piece of gear, writing a program, or shooting people in the face for money, every 4 weeks, the lifestyle bill comes.

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 9 2010, 02:20 AM

Ah, nice. That does certainly make stuff like Enchanting and Software more attractive.

Posted by: Bull Aug 9 2010, 02:58 AM

Seriously, I hate the fact Pirating Software and Enchanting rules exist. Because players just look at them and go "Look, cheap options".

My suggestion, pay full price and cope.

Bull

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 9 2010, 03:13 AM

The problem with the full price software is actually not the price, Bull. I also wouldn't mind just paying full price and getting non-degrading software that works. The problem is the very harsh penalties you get for trying to shadowrun with Registered software - see the first part of Wasabi's post that I linked.

Posted by: RobertB Aug 9 2010, 02:32 PM

Bull, I think folks are looking for something more concrete than your opinion. (And I don't mean to disparage your opinion as I can see how cheap options with small drawbacks can be a problem.) As the new Missions coordinator, you have the keys to the kingdom so to speak. If there's nothing official that prevents starting characters from having cracked software (purchased and downloaded from a Warez site group contact for 10% of retail cost), please state that directly.

You can then go on to say that you plan to update the FAQ, change the rules, or whatever at a later date or when the new Seattle Missions season starts, but I believe folks are looking for a clarification now.

I will point out that while you ponder these thoughts, there's a general consensus that Missions pay too little which hampers the development of tech characters (Hackers included), and that the modifier for registered software is 1/EACH registered program used. That number gets very large, very quickly.

Robert (aka Spanner)

Posted by: BobChuck Aug 9 2010, 07:00 PM

Hackers would absolutely love to be able to pay full price for thier software and never have to worry about it degrading or needing to patch it. I think that's great, and I would be very happy if a Missions Hacker could do that and not get auto-busted by LoneStar before the end of the first session.

Unfortunately, under current rules, that's exactly what happens.

It is impossible for a Hacker to actually use the "standard" software (the full price, no maintenence version listed in the book), because, as has been mentioned several times, that software is Registered, which means it leaves behind a trail that gets easier to follow the more it's used, and that trail cannot be spoofed until they have already started looking for you.

If a Hacker makes 10 or more checks that uses any of his registered programs, the Tracking roll to find him (assuming he's been noticed) is zero, and accurate to within something like 5 meters. And since this is a Hacker, his ability to physically evade capture will be rather small. Thus, unless things go perfectly, the Hacker will be caught.

And not just caught after one session, but caught even before the first run really gets underway, during the setup + information gathering part of the mission. At minimum, this prevents the team from getting the information they needed and removes the hacker from the game for that session. He's also got a good chance of being slapped with a Criminal SIN and/or tossed in jail (thus removed from the game). All because he used the basic, default, recommended software and got noticed once.

it's ridiculous to the point of unplayability; it's easy to ignore in home-run games, but it's in the book, so it applies to missions.

Non-Technomancer Hackers are almost completely unplayable long-term by the rules as written in Missions.

Fortunately, its' easy to fix; just say that hackers can modify their software so as to not leave a Registration trail without actually breaking the Registration (so they aren't stuck paying 6000 or more (100 * Software_Rating 5 * 12 programs) each month, in addition to lifestyle costs). Make it a logic + hacking (1 hour or 1 day) skill check to set up a fake account with false Registration. Heck, make them have to do it every month. But let them use the stuff in the book without getting auto-busted.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 10 2010, 02:25 AM

Why is data search + browse illegal?

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 10 2010, 02:37 AM

Because of location - Shadowrunners cannot plan a run without info kept in at least one private node. (Floor Plans, Personnel Records, The Johnson's phonebook, etc)

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Aug 10 2010, 02:38 AM

I agree with Bull that the pirated software rules just need to go away. I also agree with the OP that the registered software rules from unwired are one of the few head bangingly bad things in Shadowrun that pretty much get ignored by everyone because they don't make a whole lot of sense and literally do make some portions of the game unplayable.

On the other hand it's a shame that pirated software is the only way to get software readily on demand and the only way that skillsofts are actually viable post SR4A. (oh hey, software that costs more then a car for a single license!)

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Aug 10 2010, 02:38 AM

My first double post, neat.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 10 2010, 02:50 AM

Ah, so it's the Hack + Exploit into the information node which isn't the final target? How does the final target know that "other" node was hacked and know to go check the access to it?

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 10 2010, 03:30 AM

Analyze can be set as a simple action to scan twice per pass as a simple action. Agents get 3 actions. Its not an extended test but against a non-TM (Read: Runner who needs programs) its only a matter of time before the IC/Agent gets lucky and gets his six hits on Rating+Analyze (+Home Ground Program Option, if it has it) and then the track program begins. The runner may or may not notice the IC. The runner has to use a simple action to see what the IC is doing once noticing what the IC/agent is doing and then starts its track. Track takes 1 pass per test and can only be countered AFTER started and with 9+ hacking programs it rolls 8-12 dice and needs a single hit.

There are also rules for checking for back doors. If you'd like more info on that holler.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 10 2010, 03:34 AM

So does the node track and trace everyone who subscribes to the node and does a data search + browse? Or did it only do the one where the player did it?

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 10 2010, 03:42 AM

It scans for any unauthorized access.
Anyone using a stealth program and having hacked in is discovered as a non-legitimate user if the IC gets a hit on Matrix Perception and asks "Do they have a Stealth Program."

If the hacker makes a fake account as a legitimate user it can still be discovered and in some cases requires things like a matching entry in a Personnel Dept file (so another node to hack) and even biometrics (if commlink does not send signal do not grant legitimate access.)
See p65 Unwired for deeper detail.

All of this means even if only intruders are tracked anyone wanting something protected will be an intruder and usually subject to track. Look at the IC in Spin Control. Its a good example.

Posted by: DireRadiant Aug 10 2010, 03:53 AM

That's all fine for the final target system, but why would there be all that happening on the preliminary legwork nodes where you are doing the general data search + browse?

Basically, this kind of security setup cannot be on every single system. Especially the ones where you may just be looking up simple data to prepare for a run.

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 10 2010, 03:59 AM

Simple data not under lock and key sure. I want to know if the library has a book on Aztec Sacrificial Customs and I want to see if an apartment near the Mark is up for rent. those don't. Checking the news doesn't. Trying to get anything deeper means using Stealth and stealing the data from under its password protection.

Why spend all that money on a Nexus and not buy at least a rating 3 agent with rating 3 analyze?

Posted by: BobChuck Aug 11 2010, 01:00 PM

The problem is that every piece of software has to be either:

Standard: Full Price, no maintainence, Registered
or
Pirated: 1/10th price every month, degrades unless payed or patched

Pirated software is broken, has issues as a concept, and probably needs to go away. Having the ability to quickly buy programs you need is good; having them stick around for a full month is bad. If the piracy rules were simplified so that you could pay 1/10th the price to get it instantly and have it only last one week before automatically erasing itself, things would be fine. That's usable, fair, and provides a way of covering holes quickly (at a price).

Standard is the way most people posting in this thread (including the guy in charge of missions, apparently) would prefer to use software most of the time. Unfortunately, Standard software is either Registered or Cracked.

Standard Software, even common-use programs, if cracked, degrade just like pirated software, so not really usable.

Standard Software that is not Cracked is considered Registered. Every time you use Registered Software within a node to do anything, the threshold to track you (default 10) decreases by 1. So when you break into a corporate server to gather information prior to the job (a fairly standard part of most runs), every action you take leaves behind a trail that any IC, Agent, or Spider can use to follow you.

Browse to locate the information, Edit to modify the logs to say you weren't there, Stealth to not be noticed, everything is leaving a trail, so the check to find you is going to be trivial - maybe not all the way down to 0 threshold if you are careful, but almost certainly something they can do within 3 seconds. If anything spots you even once, you have mere minutes until LoneStar arrives at your location in force. Odds are good the IC/Agent/Spider will also engage you in matrix combat of some kind, to slow you down further. And, of course, most hackers aren't exactly known for having good Meat-based stealth and evasion abilities, so if LoneStar can pinpoint their location and arrive before the hacker gets away, he's already caught.

Registration needs to go away.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 11 2010, 02:03 PM

I'm not sure, concept-wise, why Pirated software costs nuyen anyhow.

Time and effort, yes. Risk of legal smackdown, yes. Buggy code ith no developer support, yes.

Money? How many current day software pirates pay a damn thing for their illicit product?




-karma

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Aug 11 2010, 02:27 PM

Well it's presumed that unlike now where you can throw up a torrent in a country with lots of legal loopholes copy protection has gotten both more effective and responses to piracy have gotten more severe. That means that the only people who can maintain pirate networks are the sort who are going to charge to use their services.

Posted by: Chance359 Aug 11 2010, 07:16 PM

My hacker has used pirated software several times, mostly for the benefit of the group (skillwires, emo softs ect). In a Missions environment, which only last 3 or 4 months in game time I can afford to buy pirated ware over the legit stuff each time I what I have has degraded and I'll still come out ahead.

Posted by: RobertB Aug 11 2010, 07:41 PM

You know you can purchase the patches from the same pirates who sold you the original software, don't you? Why pay for the whole package again?

Posted by: Chance359 Aug 11 2010, 07:42 PM

I haven't yet, I'm just saying I would.

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 12 2010, 03:22 AM

Where is the cost of a patch for a program?

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 12 2010, 11:28 AM

Free if you are still Registered, 1/10 the price difference between the degraded version and the full version if it's cracked or pirated.

Posted by: RobertB Aug 12 2010, 01:34 PM

From Unwired p94, first paragraph at the top of the second column:

Program updates and patches are also available on underground file sharing networks and may be located in the same way. The cost for program patches and updates (which restore the degraded program to its full rating) is 10 percent of the difference in street cost between the program’s current (degraded) rating and its full rating. All programs, updates, etc. from an underground file-sharing network have their copy protection cracked, if they ever had any to begin with.

Emphasis added.

So I was just asking him why he would keep paying for the whole program at a rating 6 when it's even cheaper to pay for the pirate patch from 5 to 6.

Robert (aka Spanner)

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 12 2010, 04:16 PM

Wow guys, thanks a ton for that... I'm sick to death of patching programs and never been able to find that passage!

:-)

Posted by: Wasabi Aug 12 2010, 04:16 PM

(Dupe post)

Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 12 2010, 07:48 PM

Ya know, it'd be really cool if you had the power to just say "we're not using the pirated software rules, it's too much of a headache in an ongoing campaign."

Oh, wait...


Yoooo kan doo eet, Bull! Do eet!




-karma

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 12 2010, 07:59 PM

Hehe. Isn't this whole thread about the unplayability of not using the piracy rules?