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Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 21 2010, 03:39 PM

There are rules for used vehicles in Arsenal. +4 Availability, -20% to -50% cost.

They are not listed as 'optional' rules, but they do tend to require GM adjudication, as the 'quality' of the vehicle is variable based on the GM's whims.

Can we get used vehicles during downtime? Maybe with a flat box of "damage" that needs to be repaired per 10% off? Or should this really be handled at a table?




-karma

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 21 2010, 04:09 PM

In a non-Missions thread, I remember discussing this a little. It would be nice to have more clear rules for Used.

Buying a used car and fixing it up is fair, so boxes of damage work well for that. The rules (IIRC) actual mention irreparable boxes of damage, though?

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 21 2010, 05:18 PM

They mention them as possible, as is the Gremlins quality applied to the vehicle, but all that at the whim of the GM, depending on the level of discount.




-karma

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 21 2010, 06:04 PM

Yeah, it's flexible to a fault. It might be fun to sit down and quantify the discounts on Gremlins (1-4), reparable damage, irreparable damage, etc. Rigger 3 had things like this, but probably not too useful in this situation. :/

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 21 2010, 07:36 PM

Heh. I'm personally trying to get a cargo helicopter, because my rigger has equipment transport needs above and beyond most runners.

I did have opportunity to grab a "corporate helicopter" in a Denver mod, but the GM ruled that since it wasn't statted out we couldn't keep it.

I'm tempted at this point to say "I get there by casting Levitate on my motorcycle and have an Air spirit speed my trip".



-karma

Posted by: Bull Sep 21 2010, 07:51 PM

Simply put, don't buy used.

*sigh* Seriously. Cracked warez, used cyber and vehicles, character creation of stuff... It all bothers me, because it often smacks of players simply trying to "cheat" the system (i.e., get more for their money). The cost of an item is a balancing factor in some cases (Though as I've stated before, one beef I have with SR4 is they screwed that all up by reducing some of the prices for things like Cyber). I know not everyone's doing this just to cheat the system, and sometimes it even makes sense, but... The rules aren't really designed to cover these situations well.

That's not an official rule, BTW, just my personal opinion of the situation. Runners make plenty of money, unless you're only playing one or two missions a year, and then, well... Hey. You're only playing one or two Missions a year.

However, unless the rules are clear-cut, I'd say avoid them. Anything that requires GM discretion should probably fall into the same category as "optional rules", because if I really wanted something used and wanted a hefty discount on it, I'd "Shop around" through a few different GMs at Origins or Gen Con next year, see which one was the biggest push-over (i.e. gave me the best discount) and then bought it.

Bull

Posted by: DWC Sep 21 2010, 08:13 PM

Does that mean you're pushing towards eliminating the rules for Ordeals and Group Initiations? Much like spoofing lifestyle and all the ways of saving nuyen on purchases, they're just ways of reducing the cost of becoming more powerful.

Posted by: Bull Sep 21 2010, 08:50 PM

*sigh*

Ordeals probably should be. THeyre something taht should be roleplayed out, and should be something meaningful to your character. That's not usually possible in a normal Missions setting, and not something that should be done simply as "Downtime Bookkeeping".

Magical groups should have some pretty specific and hard to follow strictures to them, as well as dues.

And that's really what it comes down to. There needs to be a solid trade off for the reduction in price. Monthly Upkeep and a chance of it breaking down for used tech. Monthly upkeep and strict dues for Magic Groups. That sort of thing. You should never get "Something for Nothing". Everything should have a cost, one way or another.

Bull

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 22 2010, 03:06 AM

I personally hate it in RPG writing seeing half-formed rules that conclude with "Your GM decides the numbers."

Of COURSE the GM decides the numbers. A GM decides to use or not use every number in the game.

But that doesn't mean you should use it as an excuse to not finish whatever rule you're writing.

It often just strikes me as laziness.

Anyhow, thanks, Bull. I'll figure out some other way of getting my character's gear from place to place.



-karma

Posted by: DWC Sep 22 2010, 03:13 AM

Or just steal a helicopter. They really are everywhere.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 22 2010, 03:15 AM

Well, if you really need a cargo helicopter of your own, you're not a shadowrunner anymore.

Posted by: Wasabi Sep 22 2010, 04:43 AM

You need the cargo helicopter to steal the Bulldog Van, duh...!!

Posted by: Redjack Sep 22 2010, 06:45 AM

Given that this is shadowrun, my players tend to burn IDs and vehicles (if not get them blown up) at the drop of hat. They've pretty much given up buying and *appropriate* for most runs anymore.

Posted by: Wraith235 Sep 22 2010, 06:35 PM

some ordeals I dont see as something to Remove from the hands of a players

Sacrifice
Geas
Thesis (if they have the dice to buy the hits)
meditation (hand full of attribute based extended tests)

things like
meta planar quests
and the Magical threat one (dont remember the name)

I honestly believe these should show up more often in missions .... now Im not saying every mission .... but more than a 1 in 25 (Referance to Denver)


I know there are more out there but they are escaping my mind ATM

Posted by: Fringe Sep 22 2010, 08:05 PM

Meditation is all but impossible under the current SRM implementation of Extended Tests. From Meditation, Street Magic, p. 51:

I'd have to design a character specifically to complete this ordeal (at least in SRM), since each dice pool is the sum of two attributes and each threshold is the product of two attributes. It's also interesting that higher grades allow more slack time for the ordeal, thus possibly making the ordeal easier to complete.

Posted by: Dantic Sep 23 2010, 01:30 AM

I disagree. If you look at Shadowrunners, at their core, they are "black ops" mercenaries. I am sure that there are plenty of small time, real world operations that have their own, small, cargo aircraft.
The vast majority of aircraft operating worldwide are also either leased, or are well beyond their first owner.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 23 2010, 03:06 AM

They're not little PMCs, though. They're just crazy private investigators, cat burglars, murderers, and so on. I was using a little hyperbole, but that's kind of my point: if you have your own cargo helicopter, you *are* more like a little PMC. You need an infrastructure for something like that, in a way that van doesn't.

Besides, I don't really believe there are ragtag gangs of hyperspecialized operators with their own air support out there. Anyway.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 23 2010, 04:06 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MVonyVSQoM






-karma

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 23 2010, 02:28 PM

Exactly, KarmaInferno. It's the movies.

Posted by: Fringe Sep 23 2010, 02:37 PM

And that's why we resort to Levitating a sniper.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 23 2010, 05:49 PM

High end runner teams in the fiction have air support all the time. T-Birds, Helicopters, sky's the limit (bad pun).

I feel that this is very supported in the fluff, and for once the fluff is all we're talking about.

Posted by: Neurosis Sep 23 2010, 05:50 PM

Yes going for Grade 1 it is ALMOST LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 23 2010, 07:50 PM

*shrug*. I've never read any of the fiction, because it's lame. If it's in the canon, then I'm sorry for misleading anyone. It just seems to me that maintaining a (giant cargo) helicopter means hundreds of man-hours of maintenance, safe landing pads, secured/secret hangars, fuel, etc.; vastly different from having a van. Fixed-wing aircraft are even worse.

It's one thing to beg, borrow, or steal these awesome vehicles, especially for temporary use. It's another to just have your own plane. I was mostly kidding, and I hope no one was insulted.

Posted by: Dantic Sep 24 2010, 01:15 AM

I'm not insulted, I'm just providing some support for the basic question that was asked here, that used vehicles, and in particular, used aircraft are not only far from rare, but are in fact quite commonplace.

Perhaps you are over estimating the size and scope of a basic cargo helicopter. You stated above, "a (giant cargo) helicopter.

For example, the CH-46/BV 107-II is a versatile and venerable cargo helicopter. It has been around since 1962 and is less than 15 meters in length, with the blades folded. This bird was manufactured in both civilian and military versions.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 24 2010, 01:36 AM

Perhaps, but 15m is *big* compared to normal consumer van; that's part of my position. The listed Cargo Helicopter (Ares Dragon) is Body 22, while the Hughes Stallion ('can be fitted to carry cargo, but it slows the vehicle down') is still Body 14; Body doesn't translate well to size, but they're certainly biggish, and the *only* chopper seriously for cargo is 8 Body bigger than the next one. I'm certainly no expert, but it is also my understanding that aircraft, especially helicopters, require significant maintenance.

So, I'm going to be serious and amend my earlier joke: if you have a cargo helicopter, you're in a whole different class of mercenary work than *other* shadowrunners who don't. Obviously, you're still a shadowrunner as long as you're performing deniable missions in small, ragtag teams of ex-special-ops, gentleman thieves, trust-fund thrillseekers, and mutant monsters.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 24 2010, 05:18 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr_CJL1YQRc



Alternately...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMq59GCaIfw


-karma

Posted by: Mata Tabi Sep 29 2010, 02:08 AM

Perhaps taking a que from the (lowered) fenceing rule in the Missions rules, it could be a flat percentage off, as well as a set modifier to the vehicle. Keeps from disallowing a written rule, and moderates the outcome.