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Posted by: Dvixen Sep 18 2003, 07:56 AM

With Virtual Seattle no longer part of the RPGA network - FanPro has supported the formation of Shadowrun Missions. Characters created for (and approved) for Shadowrun Missions games will be useable at any Shadowrun Missions events at any Convention or other gathering.

Bitrunner - who was the lead for Virtual Seattle - will be heading up this new project, and he will be along shortly to confirm/deny/correct anything I have already said.

Once he has what rules and guidelines he needs for these forums in place - it will open to the general populace. Until then, members may post to already existing threads, but will be unable to create new threads.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 18 2003, 01:27 PM

Here is a question I know is going to come up, even though I have no cares either way. What will the stance be on online play of scenarios? There are some RPGA online conventions which are fairly successful, but some of the campaigns forbid them, etc. I'm just curious about it

Oh, and I'd ask chargen questions, but I'll wait to see the guidelines first.

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 18 2003, 01:33 PM

My goal is to have at least one online opportunity per quarter. I know that there are many people out there that just don't have anyone near them to play SR, or can't get to a convention. Heck, even one of the freelancers is in Singapore, and there just aren't a lot of gamers there, period!

This is a daunting task however, my main concern is getting the campaign rolling. Once that has been accomplished, then we will try the online gaming. My "advisors" tell me that it takes roughly twice as long, so expect to set aside 8 hours or so for an online session...

Also, there will be other online "components" of the game as well. Foreshadowing of upcoming events, and clues to current events, will occasionally appear in the new screamsheets that will appear on the official SR website. Also, i'm hoping that some other stuff can be done online, such as say, decking??

Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 18 2003, 01:57 PM

In the past, I have, off and on, been associated with http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcanisonline/, a Living Arcanis online convention that happens about once a quarter. It's completely fan run, and they tend to do each module as two four hour blocks. If you want to keep the online in official hands, that's fine, as well, but their model might provide some food for thought.

I only played one module of Virtual Seattle, for a lot of reasons (lost interest in SR for a while, it was too hard for our team by a long shot, etc). I'm really onboard with the idea of SR: Missions and want to play as much as I can (mostly homegames, I'm sure, considering the way life works).

One thing that comes to mind is that a rating system for modules would be nice. Much as DnD games put a level limit on their modules (and a sliding challenge scale), some sort of warning about how hard a module is going to be would be nice If VS had this, I'm not aware of it since, after all, I only played one game.

How will tracking me done? Log sheets? Log sheets + certs? A central tracking system?

Sorry if I'm asking dumb questions, but I kind of want to see this campaign succeed.

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 18 2003, 03:05 PM

All good questions...

ArcanisOnline - the Arcanis people do good work...i'll check into it...

Rating System

Player Characters will be "rated" by the amount of total good karma they have earned. There will be four basic categories: Green, Streetwise, Veteran, and Elite. The overall average category of the table will determine the difficulty level of the scenario for that table. If you have 4 Green players and 1 Veteran player, the average is still Green, and therefore some things might be a little easier for the Veteran. For those that have been cursed, like myself, into playing Star Wars Galaxies, it will be like grouping with others in that game - your opponents difficulty level will change depending on the your groups abilities.

Tracking

After completing each scenario, a character will receive a Mission Log sheet. This datasheet will summarize the mission and any critical events that took place, along with any special rewards for the character including special gear, contacts, karma, nuyen, etc. This sheet will help keep a permanent record of the character's progress and subsumes the need for certs, etc. If the character wants to do something special, such as create a magic focus, all rolls are performed and witnessed in front of the current GM.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 18 2003, 03:37 PM

Sounds great!

Are you done with the character generation rules yet, or will we be seeing those closer to Christmas?

Posted by: DigitalMage Sep 22 2003, 04:19 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 22 2003, 05:47 PM

Actually, both methods will be used...

Normally, such activities such as initiation would be witnessed by the GM after the gaming slot.

At larger cons, or during special events, we may arrange for an "interactive", where there will be stations set up for doing such things as one-on-one shadowruns, especially for stuff like decking, and other special activities, such as initiation, designing/building a weapon/focus/vehicle/ally spirit, astral quests, and other special stuff that might take longer than a quick dice roll.

for those that can't make it to a large convention or special event where these activities will take place, the player will have to make arrangements to do the activities through a FanPro Commando or me (online, if possible). If it absolutely has to be done through snail mail, then the player will have to accept the dice rolls made by me, since obviously they cannot perform them via computer or some other neutral agent.

Posted by: paladin Sep 22 2003, 06:02 PM

Will VS stuff, like cash limits/mod and Tyger Teams specifically, have analogs in SRM?

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 22 2003, 08:13 PM

No, we won't need to do that because we'll be handling that from the writing side of things right from the start...if you find a toy that is worth 300,000 nuyen, congratulations! just don't expect to get paid a lot...it will all balance out in the end - if a run doesn't pay well, then you can probably expect that loot will be more substantial to offset that low pay. if the pay is high, then the Johnson probably expects you to not touch anything on the mission, thus cutting down the "looting" factor...

Posted by: Deacon Sep 22 2003, 11:05 PM

I'm not really fond of the 'Tyger Team' concept, as it encourages clique-based gaming. I'd much rather encourage people to mix their tables, include new players when possible, and spread the wealth...

Posted by: DigitalMage Sep 23 2003, 09:30 AM

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 23 2003, 12:51 PM

Tyger Teams -
This requires a few short points to explain:
1. Under VS, there was only one fixer - Claudia Tyger...
2. Originally, there was a limit placed on how much money/loot a character could have obtained from each scenario (100,000 nuyen). this, of course, prevented the character from receiving some items, especially riggers, from being able to keep tricked out vehicles. other items such as facilities were also restricted items that individual characters could not have.
3. In order to allow the characters to access this stuff, the Tyger Team concept was formed - it allowed players that had characters that ran together often to form a team and pool their resources. As long as over half a table was made up of members from the same team, they could use anything the team had obtained (which of course included all the big ticket items mentioned above). Also, loot that exceeded the limit could be taken in the name of the team.

Although there were only about a dozen (registered) teams, and they really didn't get abused, i agree that it tended to be counter to what we want to achieve - the social aspect of gaming...

Posted by: TimberWolf Sep 23 2003, 11:35 PM

This is the general question place, so I ask a general question.


The Mission Logs: will judges be required to print these themselves, or will they be sent to the convention coords for printing and inclusion with handouts in the judge packet?

TimberWolf
A new name for a new campaign

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 24 2003, 01:20 PM

Basically, adventures will be downloadable by Commandos and event organizers from various locations. A ZIP file will contain the main adventure and a copy of the log sheet, both are PDF files. It is up to the event organizer (which may actually be the judge!) to ensure that the materials are distributed appropriately.

So, if you are a judge, and you don't get the log sheets, ask - if they still don't provide them, let me know...an "interactive shadowrun" will be scheduled soon afterwards...

Posted by: TimberWolf Sep 30 2003, 12:57 AM

So, we need a Commando to run the Missions.. ::Sigh:: I guess I'll have to sign up.. Ugh...

Posted by: Fortune Sep 30 2003, 01:31 AM

I didn't think it was necessary for one to actually be a Commando to run these adventures.

Posted by: DigitalMage Sep 30 2003, 12:46 PM

No, from what I understand anyone can run these. But if a Commando runs one they get credited just as if they had run a demo. Also we might get things ahead of schedule but that is really up to Bitrunner.

Posted by: Joe_SmilingMoon Sep 30 2003, 07:08 PM

When (approximately) will the first mod become available? We've got a con in February, see...

Posted by: TimberWolf Sep 30 2003, 11:13 PM

It sounded like you had to have a Commando present on-site (Not necessarily running) to do this. Ah well, I may still do it.

Posted by: DigitalMage Oct 1 2003, 08:51 AM

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 1 2003, 12:59 PM

Sorry for the confusion...

A Commando is *NOT* required to run these events. If at all possible, I would like to see at least one Commando (that knows SR - most are only Battletech right now, but that will change!) at a con that will act as a "coordinator, final judge, arbitrator", etc, but I know that there are few SR Commandos out there at this time...

The only thing that *IS* required is for the person actually judging the event to know the SR rules, be a good GM, and have fun!

As for scenarios, the first scenario, Mission Briefing, will be out by January 1st. We hope to have others out soon afterwards, but that one, at least, will be ready...you will be able to download it on/after the 1st of January...

Posted by: DR.PaiN Oct 2 2003, 06:43 PM

I've recently run a few VS mods for my home crew. How is the difficulty of Missions going to stack up with VS? VS had the hardest mods of any RPGA living campaign. I particularly love the run in the Amazonian jungle that culminates with the Azzie death squad. 8 Guys with Wire 3, Assault Rifles 8, and APDS. As well as a pair of Shaman. How any team can possibly not become a victim of a TPK is beyond my imagination. I also love the bodyguard run with the 9th lvl initiate and the Dragon. Good times.

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 2 2003, 06:59 PM

Well, we are going to try to follow the FanPro approach, which is a back to the streets, old fashioned shadowrun, rather than having tea with lofwyr type stuff...

the scenarios will be able to be scaled for the party level, as before. and, as usual, there is the "stupidity reward" - if the party does something stupid, they should expect to get spanked...hard...

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 2 2003, 07:04 PM

Posted by: DR.PaiN Oct 2 2003, 07:31 PM

I've played a considerable amount of LA, and there isn't a mod that just houses the PCs with anything approaching the Azzie Death Squad. Thats the Death Squad at Tier 1. At higher Karma lvls the shamans are intiates and there are more of them. I believe at the highest Tier in that mod, there are 4 4th lvl initiates, and they come packing great form nature spirits. In addition to the 8 razor boys.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 2 2003, 07:42 PM

Play up an APL on Serpentine Path. I saw a full table of level seven and eight players play through at APL 8. The first fight, five of the six were dead, and the last one severely wounded. And that was just the normal encounter. There's a beast in Grains of Sand which could hand out a similar amount of death, given a few rounds. Not to mention those poor bastards who had a pack of hunting dogs at GenCon 2002 for Assault.

By the same token, I know of at least a five places in LA where they put in instant death items. Generally, attacking town guards will end with you dead. Breaking certain laws will get you dead. Ignoring any warning the module repeats more than twice will get you dead. They just tend not to put in numbers for the NPCs that do it. At least with the death squad you have a (slim) shot

[edit] Of course, I've also seen two LA modules finished in less than an hour (one in twenty minutes) because the PCs were apparently smarter than the writers. Saw that in LG, too, come to think of it...[/edit]

[edit2]Sorry, that third sentance should end "by the end of the first round". Otherwise it's just not impressive.[/edit]

Posted by: Goro Oct 3 2003, 02:14 AM

Hello,

I played VS and I am very much looking forward to SRM (unfortunate acronym, though-haha). Anyway, can you give us any idea when we can expect to see the character creation guidelines ready?

thanks again

Posted by: Goro Oct 3 2003, 02:15 AM

OK, so I am an idiot, I just saw another forum category devoted to character creation. Sorry about that.

Posted by: Joe_SmilingMoon Oct 4 2003, 12:43 PM

We made it through the jungle Run. We had five people, none very experienced, one a complete newbie (and playing the Face straight out of the book)
We survived the last encounter by the skin of our teeth.
Two of our number were unconscious and I was the least wounded with Severe +1 phys and Severe +3 stun. Of course, I was so covered in icky blood and jungle goop that I had to cast a Force 3 Makeover spell afterward... and failed the drain test.
But that's what a Cat Shaman does! Meow, baby.

Posted by: Goro Oct 4 2003, 01:20 PM

Hello,

I have a "general question" for the new Shadowrun Missions campaign concerning the two year story arcs. Basically, when the two year arc is over, will we have to roll up new characters, or will we be able to use our "current" characters for the next story arc?

thanks

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 4 2003, 02:17 PM

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 4 2003, 04:35 PM

bitrunner, in the introduction, it states:

"The first scenario will be called Mission Briefing and will be able to run in 2 hours (in case you need a couple of hours to teach new players how to play SR) or up to 4 hours (for those that already know how to play)."

I am a bit confused about this, did you mean 4 hours for newbies and 2 hours for those that know how to play?

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 4 2003, 05:13 PM

You can run it in any timeframe from 2-4 hours, depending on how much actual play time you need.

For a newbie table, the standard four-hour convention game slot might be half taken up by character generation, leaving two hours to play.

In an experienced table, you can spend the whole four hour time slot playing.

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 4 2003, 06:16 PM

Well, i'm glad to see we're starting to get some activity on here!

Goro asks:

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 5 2003, 09:56 PM

I have a good question about online play.

Let's say someone I know plays Shadowrun but does not have a computer. Can we both play online using my computer in the same session playing seperate characters?

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 6 2003, 03:14 AM

You're right! That is a good question!...

To be honest, i don't think that would be possible...i don't think you can run two separate logins for messenger programs from the same computer, unless you're using XP and flip-flopping between accounts - that would be a pain. i'm not sure about OpenRPG, but i doubt that allows it either.

it's something we'll have to check into and think about...

Posted by: Adam Oct 6 2003, 03:23 AM

Trillian [and I suspect other third party IM systems for other platforms] allow multiple logins using different accounts to the same service without a problem.

Posted by: DarusGrey Oct 6 2003, 06:10 AM

I can confirm what he said about trillian..*hugs his trillain pro*

Posted by: CanvasBack Oct 8 2003, 06:12 PM

Well, I hope this isn't out of place but here it goes...

Since you guys are planning on doing an online gaming option for SR:Missions, has any thought been given to doing a Decker Campaign/Story Arc exclusively through the internet? This would give folks who want to play deckers a fix without the "bogging down" of regular play. It could be done in a way that the Decker Campaign and the regular version were linked, datasteals in one lead to runs in the other, decker contacts in one game might be PCs in the other track and how well they run the Matrix the night before might determine whether or not they have a relavent piece of info for you, heck you might allow a combat decker to participate in both within certain guidelines. I don't know, just something to chew on I suppose...

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 8 2003, 11:29 PM

This could be a great opportunity for FanPro to develope software specifically for roleplaying over the internet. There are already people working on the idea and are dabbling around in making visual aid programs. Someone just needs to take these ideas and mold them into a final product that could quite possibly change the future of role playing.

A market where your books are finally useful online! Who is going to step up to the challenge?

Posted by: Deacon Oct 9 2003, 03:59 AM

Posted by: Deacon Oct 9 2003, 04:00 AM

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 9 2003, 01:03 PM

Before someone else beats me to it...Adam Jury is actually the one that does the website, not Bull...

As for the decker stuff...well, I don't want to say too much, but for those that were involved with VS beforehand, you might remember me mentioning a little about this...

basically, my initial goal will be for there to be some online way to have deckers go to a website and do something (planning on some kind of Flash prog att) that will give them a "password". that way, they don't know what the result of the hack was - they take that password and go to the convention or game day, and when they play the event, they tell the GM that they want to try to hack into the matrix to do some legwork on the target, and give them the password. the gm would then have a sheet with the various passwords for that month, and what they result out to...

BUT, and a big but...that takes money, unless someone out there wants to volunteer their time and energy to working with me on this...i had a programmer working on it here where i work, but he's been laid off, and he never got anywhere past the planning stage, as i was having to teach him the terms and basics of the game so that the look and feel would be there...

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 9 2003, 01:18 PM

A similar idea might be that a "Shadowlands node" could be hosted online and people with Shadowlands as a contact get a passcode to get on, etc. It'd take a bit of effort, but it could provide campaign hints and clues, as well as other Shadowlands type adventure hooks and hints. Maybe even passcodes for corp sites and their security proceedures, etc.

[edit]The upside is that the code would be as simple as a private message board or a board with required registration and approval via the passcode.[/edit]

Posted by: CanvasBack Oct 9 2003, 07:22 PM

Hey Deacon, Thhhhhhhptttt!





I'd volunteer to help you bitrunner but I'm no programmer.

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 9 2003, 10:35 PM

Posted by: Adam Oct 9 2003, 11:15 PM

Bear in mind that, historically, computer game aids for RPGs have not sold particularly well. There are some success stories - for example, Heavy Metal Pro for Classic BattleTech - but also many failures: Most of the D&D-related utilities, the Vampire: the Masquerade set of applications, etc.

I'd assume the best way to get FanPro to seriously consider publishing electronic components for Shadowrun is to approach them with a proposal. I doubt Rob has the time or the resources to query a bunch of independant software houses to see if they'll do some contract work for him.

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 9 2003, 11:44 PM

to my understanding though, Microsoft holds all the licensing options for any Shadowrun related software...i don't know if that means just games, or if it includes gaming aids as well...could be wrong...

certainly, if we don't charge money for it, like something web based, then i don't think it is an issue...the character generator is a prime example...

my company could certainly do the work, but the key ingredient here is money - how much would FanPro be willing to back for such a project? what would be the return on investment?? personally - i don't think we'll see much of anything unless we do it ourselves...

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 10 2003, 02:04 AM

Here is an off-the-wall idea.

Bundle the software CD with the main book, or simply advertise it throughout the books to direct players to a server for download.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 10 2003, 05:57 AM

From the http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/faq.shtml (Under General Rules):

Posted by: Mr. Man Oct 10 2003, 06:50 PM

Since this isn't a forum for actually playing games in, putting it under "Welcome to the Shadows" seems like a mistake (as well as a good way to make sure it stays obscure). Wouldn't it be more appropriate to put the SR Missions forum underneath "Shadowrun"? It certainly deserves to be there more than the Duels forum does.

Just my 2 .

Posted by: Goro Oct 12 2003, 03:36 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 12 2003, 04:03 PM

sorry guys,

this is where the Dumpshock admin wanted to put us - they didn't have to give us any area...we just have to make sure the word gets out...

we can have sub topics btw....

you can certainly address the issue with Dumpshock management, and maybe if they receive a well conceived post from someone other than me, they'll move us...

Posted by: Fortune Oct 12 2003, 11:17 PM

Since this forum (Welcome to the Shadows) pertains to actual games and gaming as opposed to rules interpretaions and other general questions about Shadowrun, it would actually seem to be the correct place for it, at least in my opinion.

Posted by: Mr. Man Oct 13 2003, 04:43 AM

But consider this:

• Welcome to the Shadows is described on the front page (and well-known for): "In character discussions and gaming". AFAIK, the SR Missions forum is not going to be used for actual gaming or IC talk.
  
• Shadowrun Missions is an official Shadowrun product that is distinctly different from the rule books and even the published scenarios. As such, it should get the same positioning (and subsequent exposure) in the forums as SR Duels does.

Posted by: Fortune Oct 13 2003, 06:22 AM

Personally, I think that the SR duels forum is in the wrong place.

Welcome to the Shadows used to be Runs and Run Ideas, which seems to cover this topic as well.

Be that as it may though, I don't really want to get into an argument about it, as I am not an Admin and have no vested interest in this topic's location on Dumpshock.

*Note to the Admins: You might want to look into the fact that the Fast Reply feature is not activated in this thread.

Posted by: Goro Oct 14 2003, 02:02 AM

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 14 2003, 01:34 PM

A legal table minimum shall have a count of three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out.

A legal table maximum shall have a count of eight. No more. No less. Eight shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be eight. Nine shalt thou not count, nor either count thou seven, excepting that thou then proceed to eight. Ten is right out.

The ideal table shall have a count of four to six. You can make up any analogy you'd like for this one...

Posted by: Deacon Oct 15 2003, 10:08 AM

I've always been in favor of a three-person minimum, since that's pretty much the smallest a team can consist of and cover most of the necessary bases. You have a mage, a samurai, and a decker/rigger... there's your mojo, your matrix, and your meat shield right there.

You do have to be careful, though, because there's no backup for anyone, and with doubling up like that, no one's really going to be that superlative at any one thing. Especially if you have a group like a mage/face, a samurai/biotech and a rigger/decker. You've covered all the bases, but it's a pretty thin cover, and it tends not to cover everything all the way.

Eight is a nice number of players, but I'd be inclined to split the table up into two tables of 4, just so I can spend more time per person with roleplaying. With eight, you miss out on that, since your attention goes eight ways... plus, with such a large group, encounters planned for a group of 4-6 can be overrun. Although there's a way around that -- simply scale the encounter so it matches the party's numbers.

But, either way.

Posted by: TimberWolf Oct 29 2003, 01:47 AM

I tried to post a new topic for discussion, and it never appeared. Are topic creation limited to a few people? Or are they reviewed before posting?

Posted by: Toecutter Dec 22 2003, 04:02 PM

Test.

Tactical Computer online

Posted by: Wailer Jan 5 2004, 08:26 AM

Bitrunner, in the CG posting, you mentioned being a little behind on the adventures. Do you have the Commando-Crew writing for Missions, or even /more/ official folk? Also, would you need any help playtesting the runs before they hit?

Wailer

Posted by: paladin Jan 6 2004, 05:45 PM

And unfortunately, real life sometimes intrudes. Writing a module while at a military school with no rulebooks is a royal bi-, er, problematic, to say the least.

Posted by: bitrunner Jan 7 2004, 02:49 PM

Paladin hit the nail on the head...it's mostly RL that is hitting us hard...plus the holidays didn't help matters...

We have a core group of writers right now that are writing the intro scenarios and working on the story arc scenarios. They are, now, Commandos as well...

ANYONE however, is more than welcome to submit a proposal for a scenario - if it happens to parallel something we are doing in the story arc, then i'll send you back changes i'd like you to make to have it fit in. otherwise, i might just make some tweaks or other suggestions and your scenario will stand as is, another thread in the tapestry...I am certainly looking for submissions, and have a couple on the table from people right now...

if you feel that you will write a couple of scenarios a year, and also act as GM at your local hobby store or at conventions for at least 6 times during the year, then you might want to consider joining the Commando program (www.commandohq.com) and get some bennies for your hard work!

Posted by: Mr. Man Jan 7 2004, 03:43 PM

The Commando web site seems very Battletech-centric. Are there plans to add some kind of "Check here to be notified of Missions events in your area" feature for players?

Also, is there any kind of official SRM web site yet?

Posted by: Wailer Jan 8 2004, 12:59 PM

Roger that, Bitrunner, thanks for the info. Any specific area of the expansive Shadowrun universe that you could narrow it down into, even a little? Or are you looking for pretty much anything - but if it happens to hit on something in the Story Arc is just where we'd have to tweak it?

Also, I'm very interested in becoming a commando, but I'm stationed in Germany right now & the closest gaming store I know of is in Munich - about 2 hours on the Train. How large of a convention would it have to be, to be able to run a 'sanctioned' event? For example, if I was able to pull together a couple different groups from the nearby posts & among the German players I know and ran a sort of Shadowrun 'Game Day' or minicon, would that count?

Wailer

Posted by: Wailer Jan 8 2004, 01:03 PM

Wailer again. I normally run a few years behind cannon - Right now we're dealing with the Comet fallout, etc. I've got all the core books & most of the older source, but what would be advised of the most recent stuff to read up on?

SOTA:2063 and the Shadows of: Stuff?

Wailer

Posted by: bitrunner Jan 8 2004, 02:07 PM

ok, some easy questions!

Commandos: yes, they are very BT-centric - right now....however, Clutch, the leader of the Commando program, is very excited about SRM and increasing the presence of shadowrunners in the program...the Commando program is sponsored by FanPro directly - it is their outrider program, and therefore Shadowrun is very important to them... the org DID start out as BT, but i'm sure that by this time next year, they will have changed somewhat. That is where YOU come in... the more players that we can show, and the more GMs that become certified, the more "power" we'll get in the program.

Becoming a Commando: There are Commandos in Germany, Russia, and all over Europe! As long as you host an event and publicize it, and it's open to the public, then it will probably count. Obviously, hosting a "con" for your gaming group in your house doesn't... There are some that host "firebases" at schools, gaming clubs (usually meeting at schools), boys/girls club, Elks lodges, churches, etc...obviously, if you're in the military and host an event on the base or at a local establishment, and can get at least 2 tables going, i would certainly count that a success! And since you're in Germany, you should try to get to attend Ratcon over there - FanPro has a major presence there (in fact i think they sponsor it)

Web site: Well, this is partially my fault...i hope to finish up the last couple of pages for the website this weekend and send them in so that Adam Jury (the FanPro/Shadowrun webmaster) can post them. Remember that unlike VS, i have no access or control over the FanPro/Shadowrun website...

Timeline/Canon: yes, we follow the current timeline as published, so YOTC and Survival of the Fittest (dragon stuff) has occured. However - none of that is really important. Shadowrun, and especially Missions, is returning to a more traditional campaign level. Runners will not be having tea with Lofwyr, doing a datasteal against Zurich Orbital, or traveling through the desert with immortal elves...you WILL be encountering gangs, corporate security, trogs, organized crime, DocWagon, Knight Errant, LoneStar, organ leggers, and things that go *bump* in the night... Obviously, you should buy all the books!! (hey, part of Missions is to promote the product line!)...SOTA:2063 has some new gear and abilities and rules in it, so i would recommend that definitely, as well as the new Sprawl Survival Guide (i like to think of it as Shadowrun 101)... Get those first, and you can get the Shadows and Target series books, which are location backgrounds, later...

Posted by: TimberWolf Jan 10 2004, 11:28 PM

okay, I'm considering being a commando. I even got the stuff for it. But it's been a month or so. Do I have to resend the e-mail, or can I just fill out the form. I'll be doing mostly SRM, but I am a BT player, so I'll do that too. The mini-scenario we have to write for that, will you be reviewing those as well, or are they just stand-alone intro stuff?

Posted by: Fortune Jan 12 2004, 11:18 PM

So bitrunner, when is the 'Mission Briefing' scenario going to be made available online, and where will it be hosted?

Posted by: HelperMonkey Jan 15 2004, 07:16 AM

Hey I'd really like to join one of these online games. How do I go about it? Please post here or send me a PM.

Posted by: Diggs Jan 18 2004, 05:27 PM

There was talk in VS about meta-orgs. Will there be such things in SrM? If so, what orgs are in the works?

Posted by: Backgammon Jan 19 2004, 10:56 PM

I may be particularly dim, but where can one download these missions (once they're written)?

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jan 20 2004, 06:39 AM

Whoops, forgot you couldn't post in the Advanced Rules forum.

Regarding the Corrosives in Capsule Rounds ruling, I have to assume that this does not included nano-corrosives if we somehow manage to get ahold of some?


-karma

Posted by: bitrunner Jan 20 2004, 02:14 PM

to make things easier on everyone, let's just use the same chart for ANY hazardous materials...inert materials such as paint, baby powder, etc will last at least a year.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2004, 10:51 PM

That's cool. So what about my question concerning where and when the Mission Briefing scenario is going to be available?

Posted by: Casazil Jan 21 2004, 05:43 AM

Posted by: TimberWolf Jan 22 2004, 03:02 AM

I asked for the first two scenarios for March, but so far haven't heard anything. Probably because it's at least a month before we're close to the event.


Ah well. Moving on, will there be any sort of tracking system?

Posted by: NOR Jan 24 2004, 07:13 AM

Hope this is the right place to post this.

Anyone got a good link on a Rigger Drone/Vehicle creation tool? Its a major pain outfitting these things by hand and I figured I'd check before I spent the time coding one.

N.

Posted by: Knae Jan 24 2004, 09:04 PM

Posted by: Cain Jan 28 2004, 07:07 AM

Here's another question I had, after examining the "advanced rules" thread:

Will it be acceptable for people to replace the Maneuver Score mechanic for a simple set of Opposed Handling tests?

Posted by: bitrunner Feb 2 2004, 02:02 PM

First, the Advanced Rules thread is to cover things that are not already covered by published rules. These become our "house rules", and hopefully, we will actually in a sense be "playtesting" them and maybe if Rob likes it, it will become published rules later on, and then we don't have to have it as an Advanced Rule anymore...so, the answer to replacing one rule with another is generally going to be NO. We use the published rules...that said - if you're at a table and the GM feels that for the sake of simplicity and time to simplify a game mechanic, and the player doesn't have any heartburn with it, then the GM may do so - the FanPro Police will be elsewhere...

I received a question over the weekend that i'd like to address. The person asked about how to "get involved" with SRM. Well, upon review i found that i did have some information in the Introduction thread, but i'll rephrase it here:

Well, it depends on your meaning of "get involved"...

SRM is primarily a vehicle for running high quality adventures during conventions, game days, gaming store demos, and other public events. We have already had about 5 conventions in January and February that have held the first SRM event (Mission Briefing). While conventions and such are supposed to be the prime focus of the campaign, we realize that many people wish to participate further that cannot attend conventions regularly or don't have many public gaming events nearby. Therefore, we also allow GMs to run the events for their local gaming groups or clubs.

So, as a player, you get involved by creating a character and looking for events that advertise SRM events - if they don’t have any, ask them why!

As a GM, if you wish to run such events for a local group or club, then just contact me for ordering the adventures, run them, and have fun!

If you wish to get further involved, you can submit story/adventure ideas and help write adventures for the campaign.

Posted by: bitrunner Feb 5 2004, 04:36 PM

In order to stir things up, here is a copy of the FAQ that will be on the website:

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
This page contains answers to common questions as of January 1, 2004. We also use the official Shadowrun 3 FAQ.


Magic & Awakened Characters

Are we using the "Focus Addiction" rules presented in the "Magic in the Shadows" book?
Yes. Note that two sixes on the magic loss test are automatic success, two ones are automatic failure, and everything else is up to the dice.

Can mundanes use sustaining foci?
Mundanes cannot use foci of any sort. All foci must be bonded to per SR3, p190, which states "This requires a magical ritual". If you don't have any magic, you can't do the ritual; therefore you cannot bond to, activate, or deactivate any focus directly.
However, a mage could cast a spell with a mundane as target and place a sustaining focus on the target to sustain the spell. The target has no control over the focus, though the target can terminate the sustained spell by breaking contact with the focus.

How does a mundane use an Anchoring focus?
Mundanes cannot use an anchoring focus directly because they cannot bond to it. However, mundanes can be the targets of the spells based on the trigger condition (drinking for the healing potion or a detection spell for other types), but they are not the user and they are not bonded to it. For clarification, use of an anchoring focus is placing a spell into it and then taking the drain when the spell is discharged. This is different than activating it, which can be done by just about anyone or anything that meets the trigger conditions or detection spell requirements.

Is there a range to sustaining foci?
There is no range associated with sustaining foci as long as the caster is physically present when he casts the spell and places the focus on the target. After that, the target can literally go anywhere in the world and the spell will stay up.

Can a sustaining focus be used to sustain different spells? What about different targets?
Sustaining foci can be used for different spells, but they require rebonding to change the spell they will sustain. The caster does not have to rebond a sustaining focus if he is placing it on a different target as long as he is using it for the same spell.

Can I summon Elementals before the adventure starts?
Yes! You may pre-conjure Elementals before an adventure begins unless the adventure specifically forbids it. Simply deduct the conjuring materials as appropriate and make the rolls in front of the GM. To save time at the table, you may attempt to summon up to half your Magic rating, pre-adventure. Failed rolls have the usual result. Once the adventure starts, you may certainly attempt to summon more Elementals, up to the normal limit. If you had any Elementals carried over from a previous adventure, remember that your Charisma limits the amount of Elementals you may have at any one time.
Note that this also applies to Shamans that wish to have watcher spirits that last for long periods of time. As per rules found in MITS, a character can spend either 1,000 nuyen or 1 Good Karma point for every week he/she wishes the watcher to remain around, for whatever reason. Also note that just like Elementals, a Shaman (or Hermetic) may only have a number of watcher spirits equal or less than their Charisma attribute, which do not count towards regular Elementals. If a mage or shaman spends enough Karma to have the watcher survive the intervening time between adventures, then they carry over to the new adventure. Otherwise, you may not preconjure watchers - you may certainly take the time to do so once the adventure begins.

What kinds of magic characters can I play?
You can play a shaman, mage, aspected magician or adept as shown in the core SR3 rules. These are described and expanded slightly in MITS.
For the Path of the Shaman, you may play a traditional totem shaman that follows Animal, Nature, Mythic, or Idol totems as outlined on pages 152-162 of MITS or any of the totems in the SR3 core rulebook. You may also choose to be a shaman of Wilderness or Urban paths, as found on pg 16 of MITS. Elemental, Ancestor, and Pantheism shamans are not allowed as player characters.
For the Path of the Mage, you may play a traditional hermetic mage as presented in the SR3 core rulebook. Hermetic mages which follow Hermetic Schools or Elemental Mages are also allowed, provided they follow the additional guidelines for magical traditions (see below).
The Paths of Wuxing, The Wheel, Toxics, and Awakened Oddities such as Psionics are not permitted to player characters - they are for adventure NPCs only.

Can I play a druid or other magical tradition from Magic in the Shadows, pg 24-26?
Yes! You may decide to follow a magical tradition to add further "flavor" to your character (only open to full or aspected magicians, not adepts). There are, however, a few restrictions. You may still follow a tradition which follows one of the proscribed paths above, but you do not gain the ability to access such a path. For example, you may desire to follow Egyptian Magic traditions. This tradition states that magicians are pantheistic shamans, however, Pantheism is not allowed. Therefore, you could follow this tradition and use the suggested Tools and Trappings, but would not receive the benefits normally associated with this tradition. In Hawai'ian Magic, it states that some kahunas have the ability to summon salamanders rather than spirits of man. Since other Paths which normally summon salamanders and similar spirits are not allowed, this aspect of Hawai'ian Magic is also not allowed - the rest of the tradition may be followed normally.
Traditions which deal in injury or sacrifice are plain out. These traditions are Aztec, Black, and Hindu (Kali only - others such as Vishnu allowed).

Can a mage who is astrally perceiving and using spell defense for people or objects protect them in both the Astral and Mundane world at the same time?
Yes. It is possible for an astrally perceiving magician to affect both the physical and astral world at the same time, since the magician exists in both the worlds at the same time and interacts with both worlds at the same time. You do not have to split dice to cover an object or person in both worlds.

Are ally spirits allowed?
Yes, ally spirits are allowed -- but you must submit the formula/proposed ally to me and then it will be reviewed and eventually returned with the required resources/rolls etc and your next GM can provide witness...

How do I find a mage instructor to teach me a spell?
You'll have to find an instructor through interacting with other players or contacts, or will just have to go to Seattle University. Keep in mind that if you can only find legal instructors, like the ones at Seattle University, they will only teach you a spell up to Force 2 -- anything higher would be illegal...

Can shamans or other mages who can't summon Elementals benefit from someone else's Elemental to help them learn spells?
No, due to the fundamental differences between shamanic and hermetic mages, a shaman may not use an Elemental to learn a spell. Shamans do receive totem dice for learning spells just as they do for casting. Hermetic mages, including hermetic aspected sorcerers, can benefit from someone else's Elemental.


Cyberware & Bioware

Can I upgrade my cyberware?
Presuming that the item in question has not been damaged, you may sell back cyberware for a flat 25% of its retail value (book price; taking into account alpha or beta mark-up, if any) when upgrading cyberware. Remember, if you upgrade from 3 points of "normalware" to the equivalent in alpha grade, the alpha only takes 2.4 Essence points off, but you DON'T get the excess back-- you simply have a 0.6 point "hole" which can be filled with something else at no further Essence cost until the "hole" is exceeded.
Cyberware above alpha grade is normally only available through adventures.

Can I buy used cyberware or get it from "former enemies"?
Used cyberware is NOT available at character creation. Presuming that the item in question has not been damaged, you may opt to purchase used cyberware from a Street Doc or Chop Shop contact - don't forget to figure in the Street Index when calculating the price. On the flip side, if you have a similar contact and have come across some cyberware recently that is "no longer in use by the previous owner", you can expect to sell it for 20 - 25% of its retail (book) value. Just remember: when selling, you collect on average 20-25% of retail value - when buying, you must figure in Street Index.


Equipment

Can characters purchase customized weapons and armor as described in the Cannon Companion?
Yes, as long as it is only one or two modifications, don't sweat it - and you don't even have to make any rolls if you're doing it at character creation... anything more than that will require the staff to approve it...

Can we buy credsticks (fake IDs) as listed in the core Shadowrun 3rd Edition book?
Yes! We follow the normal availability rules for credsticks.

I have a fake ID credstick. Can I buy equipment with it at retail value, instead of Street Index value?
A fake ID credstick does allow you to purchase items as a common citizen. For example, if you have a SILVER credstick Rating 4, then you can safely purchase anything up to 20,000 and/or that requires fingerprint identification. The legality of the item must also be taken into account. Getting a handgun legally requires a permit, and that requires defeating a Rating 6 reader, which you should roll in front of a judge and have them sign off on it.

Also keep in mind that credstick transactions ARE TRACKED. In other words, a Rating 4 Silver credstick is designed to give you the background you need to pose as a common Middle lifestyle sarariman. If you buy items exceeding the lifestyle appropriate to the credstick, then you will be investigated by Lone Star. For more information, read more about credsticks in the World View section.

Does the security armor I just took from a guard fit me? If not, is there any way to adjust the armor to make it fit?
The description for security and military armor mentions that the armor is designed for ease of movement for the individual. The weight of the armor is further dependent upon the Body attribute of the wearer. Therefore, the armor comes in standard "sizes" based on a character's Body attribute.
Security and military armor consists of hardened plates over a jumpsuit arrangement. Making it larger would leave gaps in between the plates in certain areas, thus defeating its protective value. Making it smaller would mean that the plates would be overlapping in some areas and rubbing, etc, so you would have to make the plates smaller. This latter step will require an armorer, who will charge you the same cost as if you went out and bought the armor through a fixer.
Armor that is less than security armor is made of semi-flexible fabrics and has less stringent sizing requirements, and therefore secure clothing can be tailored to fit within the same metatype to any Body size. If you're a troll or dwarf though, you have to have the clothing from another similar metatype.

How many square meters of ruthenium polymer does it take to make a bodysuit?
Use the rules under the Dikote listing (M&M, pg 91). For a normal human: jacket 1.5 square meters, full suit 2.25, and long coat 2.75.

Does the "Zoe Second Skin" line of armor use the Form Fitting body armor rules?
While it is not listed in its description, the "Zoe Second Skin" line of armor should use the same layering rules as Form-Fitting body armor.


Vehicles & Drones

Can a starting rigger make any customizations to their vehicle before they start playing?
Yes, if they have the nuyen and with some restrictions. As always, you have to abide by the Availability of 8 and Device Rating of 6 limits for character creation. Also, if the vehicle has like a dozen or so mods, then the campaign staff will want to look it over. Getting a van and adding a popup turret is one thing, having a Bison with amphib ops, underwater ops, mine layer, torpedo launcher, enviroseal, satcom unit, blah blah blah, and of course the armored beer refrigerator is a different matter entirely...

Can a character use a "Mechanic" contact (and pay nuyen) to have the work done for them if they don't own a Vehicle Facility (ex.: adding weapon mounts requires a vehicle facility).
Yes, they can do this if one of their contacts is a Mechanic. However, at character creation, you would not have to pay the install charges, just as a street samurai doesn't have to pay surgery costs for cyberware. More info will be available concerning the exact skills and skill ratings that a "Mechanic" contact will have.

Will any vehicle sporting visible weapon mounts have Lone Star run your license plate for a permit?
Not necessarily. If you're unsure, then please contact the staff with the specific situation.


Miscellaneous & General

Can I fence the gear I found during an adventure?
Presuming that the item in question has not been damaged, you may sell back items which you find during the adventure at 20-25% of retail (book) value. If it is damaged, you'll be lucky to get anything for it, unless it is a very expensive or unusual item. Vehicles, drones, cyberdecks, and similar equipment can usually be fenced if they have taken three (3) or less boxes of damage, but be prepared to get much less payout on these items.
If an item is obviously "hot" or very expensive or rare, you might not be able to fence it - at least not until someone has found a buyer for it. The fixer or fence will probably have you hold on to it, so that no one comes looking for it at the fence's house...

How do I keep up with all the latest news and get all the neat stuff?
Pop on over to www.dumpshock.com and check out the forum for Shadowrun Missions. By visiting this forum, you can get up to the minute (almost literally!) information on Shadowrun Missions events, rules, and other important information, as well as a forum to talk in and out of character with others in the campaign.
You can also sign up and create a player account on www.commandohq.com . Once you’ve created an account, you can sign yourself up with FanPro Commandos in your area or in areas that you are willing to travel to in order to play Shadowrun Missions. When the Commando hosts an event, you’ll get an automatic email notice to let you know what is going on. Your local Commando is also the one to talk to about any metagaming events or things you’d like your character to do between adventures.

I’ve got a neat idea for an adventure, but it involves a new piece of equipment that’s not in the Shadowrun rules. Can I use it?
Yes, we do allow "literary license", in that you can bend the rules or invent new stuff for your adventure. Beware of doing too much of this and, please, keep balance and fairness in mind. "Your-PC-can't-do-that-but-my-NPC-can" can be very frustrating for players. Who knows? If you’re stuff is really cool, it might eventually end up in a published sourcebook!

Can I use Karma Pool between adventures to learn spells, customize vehicles, etc...?
Yes, as per the core rules. However, you must declare AT THE START how many Karma Pool dice you are using for each action. If, after a month (game time), you have not succeeded in the action (ex.: learning a spell), then you must pay a month of living expenses. Now you have two options, go back and do some shadowrunning, or continue to learn the spell. If you continue with your studies, you only have Karma Pool left if you have not yet used them. Otherwise, they have NOT refreshed...

All these rolls are made, as usual, in front of the adjudicating GM...

Are any of the "Target" books approved?
At this time, the Target collection of books (ex.: "Target: Awakened Lands") are for background material only and therefore not eligible for character use. The abilities *MAY* become eligible for game play at a later date.

Am I allowed to have a DocWagon Contract? Do I have to have a False ID before I can get one?
DocWagon is certainly available to all characters - but beware the shortcomings of this service!

First, opening a contract with DocWagon requires that you file a tissue sample with them. Sure, it's kept in a nice safe vault protected by bonded guards and mages - how many of you out there are paranoid about ritual sorcery?? Second, consider that the contract requires that you have a sealed band wristphone on your person at all times. You NEVER take it off - if you do, that means you've ruptured the band, thereby alerting DocWagon that you are in need of medical assistance. And these bands are constructed so that DocWagon personnel can read information off the band without removing it by using simple hardware. I'm sure that DocWagon representatives are the only ones that have this equipment though. Third, and probably the most important for shadowrunners: DocWagon will not respond to calls on extraterritorial government or corporate property without permission from that controlling authority. Once you step onto that well manicured lawn in front of the Aztechnology pyramid, well, I think you can figure out the rest...

It is not tied in any way to your credstick, a membership card, or any other outward sign other than the ubiquitous sealed wristband. DocWagon is a true capitalistic corporation - as long as you keep paying, they'll keep taking your money.

Posted by: Kax May 2 2004, 04:56 AM

Bitrunner, has there been any work done on an official or 'official' list of Dikote area values for weapons?
If not, do you want me to do one with measurements of real weapons and we use that?

Posted by: Abstruse May 2 2004, 08:25 AM

I've got a rules question for you involving Matrix runs if and when they're done in detail...

Which method of using attack programs will you be using? On the Idiot's Guide to Decking thread on the main board, an issue came up as to whether you roll the program rating (program attacking by itself) or your Computer skill (use the program like a weapon to attack). Which ruling is Missions going to use?

The Abstruse One

Posted by: bitrunner May 5 2004, 01:13 PM

According to the book, you use the rating of the program, plus Hacking Pool....

that is what we'll be using if such comes up

Posted by: Deacon May 6 2004, 07:15 PM

The real problem with Dikote is that any such list compiled would probably not be available to the player at the time of character creation. (I know you're asking, "What! Who In Their Right Mind Doesn't Read The Dumpshock Forums?" Or something to that effect. )

Generally we'll just have to trust people. If a GM spots a discrepancy (like a player assuming that the 100cm^2 of dikote you get for one unit is a square meter and not 100 square centimeters... I've run into that a lot), then they can point out the discrepancy to the player and either charge them the difference or disallow dikoting on the weapon/item.

Posted by: Kax May 14 2004, 07:37 AM

>The real problem with Dikote is that any such list compiled would probably not be available to the player at the time of character creation. (I know you're asking, "What! Who In Their Right Mind Doesn't Read The Dumpshock Forums?" Or something to that effect. )


Heh. I'm the player involved, in this case, so no problem there.

>Generally we'll just have to trust people. If a GM spots a discrepancy (like a player assuming that the 100cm^2 of dikote you get for one unit is a square meter and not 100 square centimeters... I've run into that a lot), then they can point out the discrepancy to the player and either charge them the difference or disallow dikoting on the weapon/item.


Works for me; I'll go with that for now.

Posted by: simonw2000 May 17 2004, 01:44 PM

Posted by: Eyeless Blond May 18 2004, 07:33 PM

Posted by: bitrunner May 19 2004, 01:06 AM

oh, i totally agree - if only the Hacking Pool were determined somehow by the Computer skill, it would be more palatable - the whole point is that the decker is modifying the utility "on the fly", represented by allowing the Hacking Pool.

however, we have to make sure everyone is on a common ground, and the easiest way to do that is to do things by the book. even after 3 editions, the rules are not always perfect, and cannot simulate everything (melee combat is a prime example)...and so, them's the breaks!

Posted by: Kax May 19 2004, 01:50 AM

On the Shadowland Node - if someone could host/set up a Wiki with a password front end, it'll work like the books do...

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 20 2004, 02:10 PM

Okay, I'm thinking about doing a combat decker and am curious on how much non-game time we're expecting in a game year (two years of campaign play, right?). Are we looking at runs that take up a whole month at a time and thus we're probably not going to be able to spend 20 days of downtime programming that new drek-hot program and still play all of the modules (It's looking like 10-15 modules for the two years of the campaign, it seems, but I could be 200% wrong on that one.)? Or are we looking at modules in the 1-2 week range?

I assume that different runs will take different amounts of time, but in what size "units" are we going to track that? Days? Weeks? Months?

Thanks

Posted by: Dark father May 20 2004, 03:02 PM

I think that this campaign will allow downtime for personnal things like programming or B/R. Like I told to my players, if we play scenario SRM00-01 in june and SRM00-02 in july, in game there will be the same 1 month span between the 2 missions. So on your mission calendar, if your last game was played 2 months ago, I would say that your character had 2 months of downtime. I will need confirmation on this however.

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 21 2004, 01:06 AM

Super bonus question! Can deckers start out with the source code for their programs or just the object code?

Posted by: bitrunner May 21 2004, 11:47 PM

ok, i'll try to explain this...

1. on the average, a shadowrun will take place over a weeks time. one shadowrun = one week.

2. there are four game weeks in a game month. therefore, you can go on four shadowruns in the same month and only pay one month of lifestyle expenses.

3. you can do other things like programming or B/R, etc at the times specified in the books. anything that takes less than a day is a freebee.

4. one game year = one real year. anything less does not necessarily match up. this means that, in DFs example, if you play SRM00-01 in june, and SRM00-02 in july, in real life there is one month between them. in game, however, each player must decide (and of course players must realize that they each have different schedules and therefore must have a suspension of disbelief when comparing who played what and when) for themselves when those runs occurred. one player may want to save money and decide that his character did both runs back to back. another player may decide that his character, a mage, needs to learn some spells and take care of some other business before the second run, and therefore takes the rest of the month off. however, come december, everyone's calendar will close out for the year.

5. the campaign only ends when player interest, FanPro, or staff can no longer support it. the Story Arcs last two years. over two years, we'll be telling a story - think of it like covering a trilogy of novels spread over the two years. after that, we'll start a new story arc.


tinkergnome - i'm on the road and don't have the books with me, so you'll have to wait on that one...i'm assuming that you're asking because it doesn't say either way...i'm inclined to say that deckers would start with the source code for any of their programs that are of a level equal or less to the character's Computer skill (or applicable specializations)...

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 22 2004, 12:55 AM

Given that Matrix gives a discount for purchasing object-code-only versions of programs, I think it's canon that you do get source.

~J

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 22 2004, 03:33 AM

Thanks, Bitrunner. Playing a decker is significantly easier if you can count on a fair amount of downtime, and if there are only, say, 10 weeks of Shadowruns in a game year, you've got a good bit of time to play with. Considering a good agent program can take you a year of solid programming, that's a good thing

Following up on those questions, I am curious about the proceedures required in order to steal programming time on a host. There are huge benefits to doing so when programming, but it's one of those things not explicitly laid out in the books. If it's just going to be one of those "module opportunity" type things, that's fine with me, otherwise, you'd need to publish some guidelines for it in the campaign rules.

Also, are program options allowed for programs and skillchips? Not that I intend to use them anytime soon, but I'm curious.

Kagetenshi, I managed to track down the passage you reference (Matrix, p 94, second paragraph under Buying Programs) and you're dead on. I hadn't noticed that one before

Posted by: Abstruse May 22 2004, 07:32 PM

About the mainframe programing time, I had the exact same question come up with my decker player yesterday. Basically, you deck into the system, Validate Account, jack out, then just log back in and start to work until your 1d6 x (number of sucesses on Validate Account operation) days are up. Then you repeat the process. Don't know how that'd work for Missions though as you'd have to have some way to monitor the decking into the system ("Yeah, I hacked a Red host and got a Superuser account on the mainframe to do programing on. And I get 12 sucesses and rolle a 6, so the account's valid for two and a half months. And it's on Renraku's system, so I can automatically log on and do anything I want in their system. And Novatech's. And Saeder-Krupp's. Yeah.")

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Eyeless Blond May 22 2004, 09:47 PM

Simple solution: have the rolls done in front of a judge. Unfortunately this may be a problem in that the judges will have to come up with good, possibly uniform hosts for every corp that the players will want to infiltrate, which will require a significant amount of extra work for you guys.

Posted by: bitrunner May 26 2004, 01:19 AM

actually, no...we are working on a campaign project (called "Mission Briefs" for those that are interested) that will be a resource for GMs that will include just such information...it will make a GMs job much easier. Writers can also use it to simplify thier work, as standard NPCs such as corporate strike teams and major fixers will be included and can be referenced.

our priority though is the adventures, and work continues on those...

so while for now it may be difficult to convince a GM to work with you on decking into Mitsuhama's mainframe, please be patient and remember that as the campaign grows and we develop more information, you'll be able to do more and more and really make such avenues as decking worth while...

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 27 2004, 01:30 AM

Decking is always worthwhile, if only for the data searches

Anyway, I noticed while digging in Matrix that programming options (ie, stealth, etc) are optional. Are we allowed to have them?

Posted by: bitrunner May 28 2004, 11:32 PM

unfortunately, you used the key word - optional...if so, then no, they cannot be used...

options, yes
optional, no

sorry...

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 29 2004, 02:36 AM

No problem. It never hurts to ask, after all. Oh a side note, it should balance out since IC options are presented in the same section and are optional as well

It does make programming suites a lot less useful, though.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond May 30 2004, 07:32 AM

The one that gets to me is that the rule allowing deckers to give up a Hacking Pool die to supress IC, and the rule that allows you to use hacking pool to increase DF at a 2-1 ratio are also optional. On paper, the lack of those rules seems to make Matrix overwatch really, really tough to do, although at least being able to run in Masking Mode will help a little.

Posted by: bitrunner Jun 2 2004, 08:15 PM

removed a post...was not relevant to the discussion...

and, EOTLF, you must have been confused, because i never said anything regarding the issue in question - i believe the player answered you - i had no problem with the solution....you guys just talked yourself out of it...

Posted by: Deacon Jun 23 2004, 01:06 PM

As I'm the guy working on Mission Briefs, I can tell you that any only-decking runs I create for Briefs will use ONLY the SR3 rules. I have access to Matrix, but the player going on the decking run may not, and therefore to avoid complications I will use the basic rules.

I apologize in advance to those players who really like Matrix, but it's a decision made for the inclusion of the greater number of players, and not just the ones with the 'decker book'.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 23 2004, 01:09 PM

Will you include things like paydata that players who do have access to Matrix will be able to use? I feel that a better paradigm would be to only require the use of SR3, but allow players using Matrix to get a little bit more out of the decking.

Posted by: Dark father Jun 23 2004, 02:05 PM

One of the first scenarios has paydata specified, along with the value of each paydata point that you get. It's not the incredible price by point as in the Matrix book, but giving this information help deckers get a little something more.

Posted by: Deacon Jun 25 2004, 02:51 AM

When I figure out how to integrate the Matrix rules so that they can be used in a module or a Brief for a GM who may not have the book, I may use that.

Demolition Run had things for a decker to do, special rewards you could get if you play a decker and think outside the box.

Posted by: bitrunner Jun 25 2004, 12:58 PM

exactly....where/when we have sections that are targeted towards deckers, we'll try to include as much info as possible, including things like paydata value...

and Deacon is right - the adventures or briefs will try to stay within the core rules as much as possible, but occasionally we may develop something that requires the Matrix book - those sections will be outlined as such, so that the GM/players will know beforehand. if it is a minor section (a paragraph or two), we can just add the text directly from the book as a ready reference...(citing source, credit, blah blah blah)

Posted by: Deacon Jun 26 2004, 11:05 PM

I am developing a Brief for a decker, in fact... a small investigation that can be done by one or two characters, if a full group doesn't show up to play. A decking run will be part of it -- in fact, probably half of it.

Briefs are a better place in which to do this sort of thing, because I can also do an investigation Brief which doesn't require a decker -- and therefore if one isn't at the table, the GM is covered.

Posted by: Dark father Aug 9 2004, 01:52 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Aug 9 2004, 05:23 PM

no, no, no...

time is subjective for EACH person...

while that person had to spend 2 weeks mending that wound, the others in his group can go on to do 2 more shadowruns during that time, if they so desire...

if they all journey again next time, their calendars (probably) won't mesh - this is where a slight suspension of disbelief comes into play...

the calendar is simply an aid to keep track of how many shadowruns can be performed combined with time intensive stuff like customizing a vehicle or creating a magic focus during a single month of lifestyle expenses and/or during a year. if someone is getting deadly wounds a lot, they are not going to get to participate in as many runs as someone that does not get injured. also, if a mage character spends all their time creating magic items, then they are not going to have as much time to adventure, which will slow down the Karma faucet for them, hence they will not be able to continue making foci...it helps keep everything in balance...

Posted by: Deacon Aug 11 2004, 11:26 AM

One of the interesting things about this campaign is that you do have to keep track of healing times for your character. If you run out of time for the year, well, looks like it's time for another character to play while the first is healing.

Provides a nice healthy incentive not to go out and risk your hide on stupid stuff, if you're just going to lose a month and a half in healing, time which could be better spent on other, more productive things.

It's our answer to the Time Units of other, similar campaigns... And there are ways to maximize the benefit one gets out of their time spent, already in the game, which is kinda nice as well. Gives people reasons to get sleep regulators and dope themselves up with Long Haul (while trying to avoid getting addicted, heh heh... 'cuz once you're addicted, you're out of the campaign, or so the rules on the http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/missions/players.shtml say).

Posted by: Cthulhu449 Sep 6 2004, 10:32 AM

Just to check because I am not sure I totally understood the exchange:

Non-commandos can run Missions for players and give out sanctioned record sheets when the run is completed? If this is the case where do you retrieve the record sheets and other accoutrements you need. I assume you just use the missions that are downloadable off of the server, correct?

Thanks for clearing up my poor comprehension. I'm just happy if I'll be able to run missions for my players that we may be missing while we are all at college and such and still be able to advance the characters at the same time.

Posted by: linei Sep 6 2004, 10:38 AM

These record sheets are included with the downloadable adventure packs.

The packs consist of
A: The adventure itself
B: Player handout for the adventure, record sheets, mission summaries ...

Just go, download one and see for yourself ...

Posted by: linei Sep 6 2004, 10:41 AM

By the way ...

as I understand it, only the introductory adventures will be available for public download. All other adventures will be to be requested with the Campaign Director.

Can anyone tell me, where / how we will find out, which adventures are available for requesting ?

Posted by: Cthulhu449 Sep 6 2004, 10:42 AM

Thanks linei. I had one downloaded, but I guess in my quick scan I didn't notice the record sheets. Also wasn't sure on the information page what "commando credit" was. I thought that might be the ability to give out sanctioned karma and such. The help is much appreciated.

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 7 2004, 04:54 PM

OK, back from the hurricanes this week!

I see that everyone has been active while i was gone. Linei has answered the questions nicely...

First of all, Yes...only the first five demo adventures will be available through the website. All story arc adventures will need to be requested through me...the first adventure, SRM01-01 Double Cross, will be available to the public shortly...

although, of course, right now everything seems to be going through me, since they have been having some wonky problems on the main site that don't allow downloads of the first 3...#4 and #5 will be released to the public soon.

Commandos and Shadowrun Missions:

First of all, let me start by saying that these are two separate programs, for the most part. there is nothing anywhere that says that you have to be a Commando to order, run, or otherwise officiate the games. We understand that there are many areas that do not have a Commando that can run games, or that can commit to the time or travel necessary to do so - we have groups playing SR Missions all over Europe, Australia, Canada, and South America, as well as several other countries and regions around the world. As we said, you can play this campaign at home, and still be "official" as long as you don't use your characters for anything else (ie play in a "home brew" adventure). If someday you are lucky enough to attend a convention where SRM events are held, or you move to an area that has another active SRM group, you can jump right in with your character.

So, why do we talk about Commandos?? Well, Commandos are the official "outriders" for FanPro. They have the authority to make rulings in the field or witness any special activities as if it were coming from me - they are my direct representatives in the field. Consider them like circuit court justices and i'm the Supreme Court. Normally, anything you need you will be able to get or resolve through them. I post all the adventures to the Commandos first. This is a) a privilege of them belonging to the program and b) allows them to look over the adventure, playtest it, and send me any corrections/problems that they happen to find so that i can make the changes before releasing it to the general public. this is why you have seen so many people talking about an adventure, such as Dark & Stormy Night, and yet you can't play it....don't feel bad, it is just that you probably don't have a Commando nearby that is running it. Believe me, this is a great example - after running it a few times at Gencon, the author and the other GMs got together and came up with ways to improve it - it's twice as good as it was before! this does NOT invalidate the earlier groups that played this adventure however - we just made some changes in format and some descriptions to make it "scarier"...the goals and outcome and karma and all other awards are the same...
Also, Commandos have the privilege of acting as contacts for special gaming and metagaming activities. For instance, when the time comes, if you wish to start your own magical group, the rules state that you must search for an Avatar - in our case, this will be a Commando - you must have a Commando sponsor any player created magical groups (note that the campaign will have overall magical groups that anyone can join). Later on, we may allow player Shadowrun Teams, which will be similar to Guilds or PA Halls of the online games and will allow you to have big ticket items such as shops (the B/R kind such as vehicle, electronic, etc), safehouses, etc. Once again, you'll need a Commando to sponsor and manage this for you and your group. At conventions, Commandos will be required for running certain interactive events or other metagaming events.

So, you can see that while you don't need a Commando to play and enjoy the game, having one around may become useful in the future. The good news is, with today's virtual world, you STILL don't have to have a Commando in your backyard to do a lot of the stuff above - you just need to have access to one...if you live in Germany, and want to form a magic group with someone in New York, Boston, and Miami, and can find a Commando in Dallas that is willing to sponsor you, then have at it!

The game is, after all, meant to accomplish two things - sell FanPro/Shadowrun products (so buy stuff!!) and play the game and have fun....My job is to encourage you to do the former, while ensuring that you receive the latter...

Posted by: linei Sep 7 2004, 05:08 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Sep 7 2004, 05:16 PM

You sure you don’t mean facilities? If shops are big-ticket, I fear for how much these runners make.

~J

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 7 2004, 07:20 PM

uh, yeah, facilities...

on the serious side, runners should be making an average of 2,500 nuyen as Green characters, and progressively more as they advance and their reputations grow...check out the SRComp pg 100 for examples of what runners should expect to earn for various shadowruns...we use that as a guide for Green runners, and in most cases, bump it up a little....we also award a little bit more in the demo adventures in order to get players hooked because we know that most players have at least one thing that they really wanted to buy during creation, but couldn't due to limiting factors, and this helps them jumpstart their goal. karma is the same way. by and large, the story arc adventures will follow closer to the guidelines, and karma will be on average 2-3 points per player before individual awards.

story arc adventure listings...good question...

now that i think about it, what i'll probably have to do is have adam whip up a page for the story arc adventures but instead of downloading the files, it opens up a form that can be filled out and submitted to me - that way, i get the info i need in the format i want as well...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Sep 7 2004, 07:39 PM

Keep in mind that that means that runners will have to spend no more than 5k average over the course of a month to afford a Middle lifestyle.

~J

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 7 2004, 08:55 PM

of course! and that is where the beauty of the calendars comes in....players can choose to have their character do more than one run in a month, thereby saving money on lifestyle - and if they are smart and don't get hurt, they can do up to four....

that makes runners want to do more runs, turn down less runs, etc.

it also keeps the campaign from spiraling out of control (hopefully) by having characters all living luxury lifestyles as starting level characters...

remember, the campaign is supposed to be more "street" level at first, meaning that the average runner should be able to afford Middle lifestyle - a simple yet clean apartment with dependable power in Renton or Auburn...the runner has little or no reputation, why would a Johnson pay outrageous sums of money for them??

characters should NOT be able to do four or five runs and then go out and find a delta clinic and get Move-By-Wire systems implanted, or having mages run off and making level 5 katana weapon foci.

simply put - monetary rewards are easy to adjust upwards in the game, but much more difficult to pull back down, so as long as the characters are at an average level in terms of money/living expenses for their reputation level, then we're on track...

Posted by: Cthulhu449 Sep 8 2004, 07:02 PM

Couple of quick questions:

Does a Commando need to witness programming rolls if there isn't any theft of host time and stuff like that? Can players use the rules for programming together?

and

This is another odd and perhaps stupid sounding question, so forgive me, but in SR00-03 what should one do about the paydata and the downloadable smart frames if the dice say the player managed to get them and then sell them? The monetary value of these seem a bit beyond the scope of the other players' rewards, and even if split could interfere a bit with the "street" feel of the game already. Thanks for your time.

Posted by: linei Sep 9 2004, 08:56 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Sep 9 2004, 08:58 AM

All it takes is one Connected e…

No edges or flaws! Brilliant. Yeah, that works.

~J

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 9 2004, 10:42 AM

guys - if it has a Fence Value, that means that i have considered the ramifications of such...so sure, if the character manages to download the smart frame (remember that you have to have enough active memory to do so - programs are transferred into/out of active memory from offline storage) then they can certainly fence it. It is, for the most part, commercially available software that is sold to corporations - sometimes slightly customized for a certain company or system.
yes, it is a lot of money - but this also reflects that information and data are where the real money is at in Shadowrun...there is a small percentage of deckers out there that are good enough to get these files at Green level, and at higher levels, they NEED this extra loot to make up for the lower cost of the job if they are to break even.

keep in mind that the Fence Value is the maximum value that you are going to get - it is based on approx 20-25% as per Linei's post - so i've made it easier for GMs by calculating it before hand. this gives the GM the "ballpark" to know that is the max they should be able to get, barring a truly exceptional roll. you can certainly get less for it...otherwise, Linei is correct about locating the fence, etc...i've just precalculated the fence value...

lastly, i've posted elsewhere about sometimes getting "easter eggs" of higher money/karma values in the earlier adventures to help some characters get a "jump start"...

Oh, and don't forget you still need the CD Key to activate the smart frame once you've installed it - without that, it is basically worthless...

Just kidding !!!!

Posted by: Gremlin1000 Oct 2 2004, 10:32 PM

This has probably been asked a hundred times, but since I can't find it anywhere I'm gonna make it 101.

I get the impression that some of the missions will be run online. How do I get involved with these since I can't get to any of the RL events?

Posted by: Dr. Black Oct 5 2004, 04:25 PM

I have a few questions that I have not seen answered.
(doesn't mean they haven't been, just that I haven't seen them)

Seeing as how SRComp is not being used, I gather the standard Award system for good karma in a "moral" campaign is the norm. However, as was detailed in SRComp, different character "types" have vastly different needs as far as nuyen and karma. Example:

Mages and adepts are karma sinks(powerpoints, initiation, foci, spells, adept abilities, etc). Whereas riggers and deckers and sammies require very little karma, but cyberdecks, programs, and vehicles/drones are pricey. Not to mention Delta Grade Cyberware.

Have you/are you considering a more flexible award system to accommodate the different needs of the various character "types".

I the past I played in campaigns with a cash for karma/karma for cash rule and even amoral campaigns. They were very successful campaigns from the standpoint of character development. I understand that the goal is to get more people playing shadowrun and purchasing the materials. I also understand that "role playing" is more of the focus for the shadowrun missions. However, if long story arcs are to be developed (ala Survival of the Fittest) then character development is going to become important as well. Id vote for some form of cash for karma/karma for cash rule or a more flexible award system.

I frequently play awakened types and find it nearly impossible to get enough karma to do even 1 tenth of what I desire with them. This was especially true in Survival of the Fittest. Netting over a million nuyen is nice, but I played an Adept who had very little need for cash. As the party ran off to their respective contacts to purchase/upgrade with new toys/cyberware, my character took a little vacation, then sat in his apartment and waited for the next run. (he is not two dimensional by the way, he is actually very politically active. The gov't he worked for tried to eliminate him after a nasty run wherein he learned to much. He has some very well developed enemies and works against them whenever possible)

I understand you reserve the "right" to include any optional rules, I would strongly suggest doing so in regards to this issue. It may be one of the reason there are so few magic using types sitting at the table for these missions.

Posted by: Casazil Oct 5 2004, 06:03 PM

And here I am with a physical adept with a million starting cash looking at it and saying man I need more money go figure.

Just a thought but man wouldn't you just be deadly with a level what 3? 4? weapon focus for that million.

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 5 2004, 06:03 PM

online games - yes - coming soon in November. I'm shooting for Veteran's Day weekend, and i'm firming up plans now. Plan to see some announcements soon.

Dr. Black - Well, I certainly understand your point. And you are correct about the campaign being a "moral" campaign. Right now, adventures are awarding a base (before RP awards) average of 3 points of Karma. When all is said and done, the overall average should be about 4.5 points of Karma. Note, however, that we've also drastically cut the monetary awards as well. We pay based on the level of the table. Higher levels command more pay. For this we use the payment bases from the SRComp.

With this said, there will be opportunities from time to time to earn an extra point of karma here or there. there will also be campaign level magic groups, which will make group initiation costs available and give you other benefits. and, in the future, there will be other special activities for mages to accomplish their goals.

keep in mind, however, that magic is supposed to be rare - and therefore there should not be that many magic types around. I'm actually pleased with the balance i'm seeing now. unlike VS, where I've actually seen a table of all magic active characters, SRM usually only has one mage or shaman at the table. adepts are a little more common. It certainly makes an adept that pays for astral perception more worthwhile, plus opens up some other opportunities...

Posted by: Cranus Oct 5 2004, 10:26 PM

What sort of details for online games do are you going to provide? I am curious as it seems that I'm the only one who's interested in running SRM (as home play) in my area.

Posted by: Dr. Black Oct 6 2004, 02:52 AM

Posted by: UPTD Oct 8 2004, 04:27 AM

I got Fox as a contact from mission briefing. During Double Cross, I said I would like to spend time with Fox getting to know him better, talking with him, and doing other social things. My GM didn't know if I was allowed to have Fox as a level two contact after that. Should I get Fox as a level two contact, and if not how can I?

-UPTD

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 8 2004, 01:02 PM

First of all, keep in mind that Fox is actually rather "hands off" when it comes to runners. Go and read the fiction piece on the main website under the World View section to see how Fox handles runners. From that, you should be able to conclude that it will be very difficult to make a stronger connection with Fox. You're gonna have to really REALLY shine for Fox to go out on a limb for you.

Also, elevating a contact from level to level takes more than just some time between adventures. It involves a lot more. Yes, time helps, as does roleplaying the relationship. It may be possible in the future to do so, but i would say that at this stage in your career, if Fox is nice to you, he needs something from you.

Posted by: UPTD Oct 9 2004, 09:50 PM

One more thing. Why doesn't finger have A.R. B/R? Its kinda bugging me that most corps use Assault Rifles, and he dosent have the skill to make them.

-UPTD

Posted by: Fortune Oct 10 2004, 01:25 AM

Maybe he has a pathological fear of Assault Rifles stemming from the childhood trauma of seeing his favorite grandmother's cat being brutally assassinated by 32 go-gangers all firing Ares Alpha Combat Guns on full auto.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 10 2004, 05:01 PM

Seems to me that corps would use SMGs more. The nice ones that scream "professional", not the cheap ones.

~J

Posted by: UPTD Oct 10 2004, 07:36 PM

DocWagon HTR uses assault rifles, I assume Ares would have Ares Alpha's handy. Renraku has whatever they want. Aztechnology has assault rifles handy. I can see how the standard gaurd would have an SMG, but most corps still use assault rifles for anything other than the standard gaurd.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 10 2004, 07:58 PM

I really doubt most guards would have grenade launchers. Keep in mind that it's mostly the corp's stuff that's gonna get blown up if they get used.

~J

Posted by: Kax Oct 10 2004, 11:52 PM

That thought points to the use of semi-auto or burst-fire battle rifles rather than SMGs or assault rifles - collateral damage.

The important thing for a writer is, do we go for exciting (lotsa bullets, most will miss) or effective and low-collateral-damage (few bullets, but each is effective)?

SR normally goes for the lotsa bullets, as it's based (as far as I can see) on USA Army doctrine: drown them in flying bullets, 'cos we don't train the grunts for marksmanship.

But I'd rather face a bunch of guys with SMGs or assault rifles than a pair of guys with battle rifles, especially if they have APDS ammo - which they will... Of course, the PCs won't last as long, so it's better to be nice and try and drown them in metal.

But to the question; a corp should be using, by preference, the SMG or AR they make themselves. Elite units will use the best gear they can find. Be wary of theYamatetsu troll using a Barrett as a battle rifle...

Posted by: Donner Oct 14 2004, 01:13 AM

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 14 2004, 12:56 PM

yes - i'm saying that the adventures say in them that the GM can award up to 3 points of additional Karma to individuals after the adventure's team award is given.

what i DON'T want to happen is to have these 3 points given out automatically, which was a problem i saw frequently in Virtual Seattle. Karma was handed out like candy, and so players, on average, were earning between 7 and 10 points of Karma PER ADVENTURE!!!

your point about being "professional and ghostlike" are spot on...that is how i play and write shadowrun...

Posted by: Donner Oct 14 2004, 02:29 PM

Thanks for the answers-- incidentally, there are a few questions in the "Play..." and "Advanced Rules" threads, also.

Posted by: Donner Oct 14 2004, 02:53 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 14 2004, 06:27 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 14 2004, 06:41 PM

Runners are criminals, pure and simple.

Also, how big were the personal rewards, and what were the runs? 5 doesn’t seem unreasonable at all for a base, though 9 is somewhat high.

~J

Posted by: Casazil Oct 15 2004, 12:21 AM

With all the new books that have hit can we get an updated list of the books that are allowed in SRM?

Posted by: linei Oct 15 2004, 08:08 AM

Well, the rules about Reputation (from Mr. Johnson's Little Black Book) are used in "A Fork In Fate's Path". And the new Quick Resolution Decking Rules (fromt the same book) are also mentioned in this adventure.
So I suppose, GMs are encouraged to use these rules in Mission, right ?

Posted by: linei Oct 15 2004, 08:23 AM

Thinking of it, along the lines of the 'Karma'-discussion above:

Are we GMs supposed to implement the "Players awarding Karma"-Option (also from the MJLBB) in SRM sessions ?

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 15 2004, 12:37 PM

you used that word! "option"...

No, we will not be using the optional Player Awarded Karma rule.

Shadows of Europe - A location book, so not usable during Character Creation. I'm still reviewing it, so as to whether or not it can be used in the game is unknown.

Mr Johnson's Little Black Book - As with Sprawl Survival Guide, there is a LOT of good information in here that both the player and GM should read. We will be using the quick resolution rules for decking/rigging. We will be using the Reputation rules, with some slight modifications to fit the campaign (more on this later).

SOTA: 2064 - Everything in this book is available, including during Character Creation (except for Optional rules still, of course). This includes the new adept abilities, spy gadgets, etc. Please note that Availability limits still apply. We will not be having a Resource Pool (or whatever it's called) for spy gear. Also, note that those that played Double Cross can spot some interesting information in the book as well...

Posted by: Donner Oct 15 2004, 02:44 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 15 2004, 08:11 PM

we ALL lost touch with him...i haven't heard from him at all - he's seemed to disappear off the face of the earth...

he's probably no longer a Commando, since the program periodically culls the herd, and if he didn't respond to any emails, he got booted...

Posted by: Dr. Black Nov 15 2004, 07:46 AM

Umm, I just wrote this long post, new topic, and it failed to show. Are we allowed to add topics? Or only replies?

Posted by: OurTeam Nov 15 2004, 08:47 AM

New topics are moderated. The moderator (bitrunner) has to approve it before it shows up. Sorry for the confusion.

Posted by: Dr. Black Nov 15 2004, 06:38 PM

When will A Dark and Stormy Night be available to non-commandos?

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 15 2004, 08:33 PM

it was tweeked along with the other demo adventures and i'm just finishing up with the comments back from the Commandos - i'll be sending it to Adam and then it'll be in his hands...

until then, once i send it into Adam, until it is posted, i'll make it available to whomever emails me...and asks nicely!

Posted by: linei Nov 16 2004, 09:50 AM

Is there a logo or something like that for SR Missions that could be used for posters for conventions and the like ?

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 16 2004, 01:44 PM

the logo is the one on the website...just right-click on it and save the picture...or email me...

Posted by: linei Nov 16 2004, 02:14 PM

So it's just the Shadowrun logo, nothing special for Missions, right ?

Or am I just to stupid to see it ?

Posted by: linei Nov 21 2004, 10:09 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 22 2004, 09:22 PM

as for the logo, i'm talking about the "blue" Missions logo that is on the page where you can download the adventures in the box on the right hand side of the screen...

as for a word on requesting adventures, i guess you could choose from a selection of four letter words....in other words, i'm still working on them - taking a little longer than I thought...

Posted by: linei Nov 22 2004, 09:46 PM

ok, now I found the logo ... seems I'm really too stupid to find that one on my own ...

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 22 2004, 10:18 PM

decker poser! decker poser!

Posted by: Donner Dec 1 2004, 03:50 AM

Question about the old "Archetype, vs book example, versus rules section" errata for the "Magic Theory" skill.

One Archetype has "Magic Background"-- which doesn't exist, as Background skills derive from Actives, so Sorcery Background and Conjuring Background, yes. "Magic Theory" went poof after 2nd Edition, AFAIK.

So, do we presume that only the Backgrounds exist or is there a "Magic Knowledge" Skill of some sort?

I presume that Backgrounds at (Active -3) is in use, since that's not technically listed as an optional rules, though grammatically the rules do include the word "may" in the sentence about implementing it-- then go on to presume that everyone will. So, if one has Demolitions 5 (the rulebook example), does one have Demolitions Background 3?

While I have you regarding Skills: how are you handling "Special" skills (e.g. Hobbies like Cooking, Singing, etc.)? One could just agree with the GM what they link to, but for improvement, etc., it would be good to know.

The old Shadowbeat had rules for a lot of this, but it is technically a 2nd Ed. book (though I suppose, since it has not been replaced/reissued, it could be used in 3rd Ed. also).

Thanks for your time.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 1 2004, 04:18 AM

There is a listed Sixth World Magic knowledge skill.

Really, Knowledge skills are limited only by your imagination. If you can think of anything, then it is likely to be a valid skill.

In your example, the dude with Demolitions 5 would have Demo Background 2, not 3.

SR2 'Special Skills' are considered Knowledge Skills in SR3.

Posted by: Donner Dec 1 2004, 05:13 AM

Posted by: Fortune Dec 1 2004, 05:45 AM

In Shadowrun, Active Skills can easily be defined as 'Normally useful in the course of a typical Shadowrun skills'. Most other skills will fall under the catch-all Knowledge category.

Knowledge of Wines is a skill. I think Elven Wines could easily be a specialization of that skill. A case could also be seen where a character knows absolutely nothing about any other kind of wine, but is an expert at the rarer Elven variety, and is specialized in the crap that comes out of Azania.

Not all knowledge skills have to be useful for the character all the time. A fair number should be fluff to round out a character and make him more believable.

Posted by: Donner Dec 1 2004, 02:12 PM

Posted by: Fortune Dec 1 2004, 03:41 PM

Ok, take for example, the Knowledge Skill of 'Sixth World Sports'. This would be a broad category which would enable the character to know the general info regarding various sports being played. A specialization could be taken in 'Urban Brawl', which would mean that the character was quite knowledgeable in that sport, but still has a general background in the others.

Then we have the Knowledge Skill 'Urban Brawl'. This skill would enable the character to know the ins-and-outs of Urban Brawl, but would not really be of much help in puzzling out the rules for Combat Biking or Cyberhockey. A specialization of Urban Brawl might be a specific team, meaning the character is basically a fanatic over that team, knowing every trade and stat line for the various players, but still granting a fair overall knowledge of the game as it relates to the league.

It isn't a really important distinction in the course of a normal Shadowrun, but it helps to define the character better in the eyes of both the player and the GM.

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 1 2004, 04:09 PM

Fortune is correct...the "Magic Background" skill comes from the "Sixth World Knowledge" grouping of skills and is all encompassing. It is different from the Sorcery Background skill that is based on the Active Skill. So, what is the difference??

Well, while not spelled out clearly, the intent is one of scope. This serves for covering your Wine and Elven Wine skills as well.

For instance, if I say:
"While perceiving, you notice a strange astral 'knotting' around the door..."

Now, you want to know what that is. I ask you if you think you have any applicable knowledge skills to recognize this. You tell me that you have Magic Background. Bob, sitting next to you, has Sorcery Background. If this is indeed a spell, but something new, I might give you, with Magic Background, a TN of 5, but for Bob, with Sorcery Background, a TN of 3, to reflect his specialty level of knowledge - yours is more general, and therefore you may or may not have heard of this new spell. Bob, who reads Spellslinger's Daily, watches the Magic Channel all day, etc, probably will hear about this spell sooner than most people.
For both of you, the number of successes will determine just how much you know. Ironically, if you happen to be lucky, and/or have a higher skill level, you may actually know more about it than Bob. If you have a skill of level 6, and roll 2 successes, but Bob only has level 3, and rolls 1 success, then you both know what it is, buy YOU know more...

The same goes for Elven Wine, or just Wine. Taste a wine, roll Elven Wine - the best you can hope for is either a) nope, i don't recognize this - it's not Elven wine, it's swill! or b) yes, this is Elven wine, and by the number of successes, you can tell from who/which vineyard, what vintage, oak barreled, aged, and what foods it goes good with...

As for your other question about Singing, Dancing, and other specialty skills. Well, Dancing could fit under Athletics I believe...I also agree that the performance skills such as Singing, Painting, Sculpting, Oration, Writing, etc should all be active skills and based on an Attribute such as Charisma (Oration, Singing, etc) or Willpower (Painting, Sculpting) (note that i'm just throwing this out - not necessarilysaying that painting should be willpower).

Posted by: linei Dec 1 2004, 04:15 PM

Posted by: Dr. Black Dec 6 2004, 06:39 AM

Bitrunner,

I recently completed 2 days at Gencon Socal were I played 5 missions. Yes, that was 20 hours of Shadowrun Missions in two days! Brings the total to 7 missions for me.

I have some questions and commentary.

How many missions are planned for the main story arc. I was thinking a minimum of 24 missions for a 2 year story arc. That would give 1 run a month, which is typical. However, a commando said you were planning 6 missions per year.

Also, is the pay scale going up? I just finished SRM01-02 and 03 and the pay was pitiful. I agree with the slow growth concept, but if you have a middle lifestyle its no growth. BTW, my character was Streetwise in both of those missions, but it didnt seem to change the rate at all.

Also, I am hearing from the GMs (including commandos) that the missions lack GM flexibility. They are very scripted and we have run into several situations that were not covered by the missions. The GMs were reluctant to be too creative and had to difuse situations in order to stop us from going outside of the bounds of the scripted mission.

Example: Harvest Time

Posted by: Dr. Black Dec 6 2004, 06:47 AM

Almost forgot,

A special thanks goes to Grendel, Blue and Ecclessiastes (sp) for their great story telling and GMing. I thoroughly enjoyed the missions as presented by them.

Grendel has to be one of the best GMs Ive ever played with.

Blue did a great although Cockneyed imitation of Saint James. And she had a cold! Also, she rolled well with the constant changing dynamic of the team.

Ecclessiastes had about 3hrs of sleep and no prep time, and yet Forced Recon was one of my favorite runs. Still wish I could have taken the Monowire.

A big thanks.

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 6 2004, 06:00 PM

we're still trying to strike that balance...

with that many missions under your belt, you should be able to start drawing some higher pay based on your reputation...

to be honest, "pay charts" were not included in the adventures for the con, so you may have fallen a little bit on the back end...

as a general rule, we discourage looting. It will be very clear in an adventure if you are supposed to "loot" or not. Generally, the concept of a SHADOWrunner, as you know, is to get in and get out...without evidence of you being there...depending on what you steal, you're just pissing off the target corporation more - do it enough and they'll retaliate. there is an unspoken rule that if the runners don't kill personnel or don't steal non-mission related items or do collateral damage, that they just chalk up what they DID loose (prototype, the scientist you extracted, etc) as a cost of doing business...if you exceed that too much, then they get pissed...

the other thing to remember is game balance....sure, if you could get ahold of monowire, it would pay more than what you would make in a year of shadowrunning...realistically, once the stuff is mounted, it should be difficult to safely remove, or else there would BE NO MONOWIRE because as soon as the corp installs it, someone is gonna swipe it!

It's difficult to put in a challenging team, or in some cases, you want to put in a team that is "impossible" to beat, because you don't want the runners to get into a certain area (and the mission does NOT require them to go into that area) and yet the team manages to come up with something off the wall and knocks out the guys and then everyone in the game has Ares Alpha combat guns and light security armor.

i don't know, to be honest with you - in a home game, it is a lot easier - in a living game, it is really hard...what i CAN tell you is that the adventures (with the exception of one or two, Double Cross is definitely linear, but for a purpose) provide more of a framework for the GM to work with, thereby giving the players a little latitude and wriggle room to do stuff - I will edit the current selection to ensure that the GMs are aware of this, and where the wiggle room stops...

also, you can be rest assured that you can 'loot' anything that you could normally get through character creation - anything with device rating of 6 or less, and an Availibility of 8 or less, and non-military, can be freely 'looted'...most of this stuff, the GM will have a "Fence Value" already computed for him/her in the adventure - if there is no "Fence Value" listed, then for some reason, we don't want the characters to have it.

Remember the spirit of Shadowrun, and the fact that we're not running an amoral campaign here...the goal is to have everyone be able to maintain a certain level of lifestyle depending on their rep. At this stage, the average player (playing 7 missions by now is NOT average) should be able to maintain Low lifestyle with no problem, and those that have strong negotiation or charisma skills (which can bargain for more money, fence goods for more money, etc) should be able to afford Middle lifestyles most of the year...as you progress, you'll start to see that brass ring more and more...

If anyone does have any suggestions on how to handle the situation, send me a private message or email...

Finally, glad you're having fun!

Posted by: grendel Dec 6 2004, 11:46 PM

Thanks, Dr. Black. The GM team at GenCon SoCal had a great (if tiring) time. Hope to see you all next year.

Posted by: Ecclesiastes Dec 7 2004, 12:33 AM

I'm glad you enjoyed the game Dr. Black.

And a big thanks to OurTeam for loaning me his notes!

Posted by: Dr. Black Dec 8 2004, 06:16 AM

Just reread my post, seems a bit negative. Let me see if I can add something constructive.

I fully agree with the acting like a professional, not a thug concept. Meaning, we are not there to knock off the guards and see how much loot we can steal. That would lead to the obvious consequences of the Corps either hunting us down or turning it over to Lonestar to hunt us down. However, In all 5 of the missions I played at Gen Con, there was only one potential fatality. (docwagon employee, HTR I think. We did break his wrist band though, and someone may have put a trauma patch on him before we ran for it) Given that we tend to leave the opposition alive (something the corps should appreciate) it only makes sense that we strip them of their weapons, radios, armor etc. I tend to think the Corps would overlook the theft of the items and be thankful that we took out their employees using non lethal means.

When I say GM flexibility, this is one of the things I am referring to. The GMs should have the ability to evaluate the merits(or lack thereof) of each team of runners on a mission and adjust mission outcomes appropriately. When I mean adjust, I am referring to the use or disuse of third party intervention (lonestar, sec guards, strike teams) as a means to allow or disallow runners to take certain actions as well as the inclusion/or not of optional portions of the run. If they are causing a high profile scene then lonestar or a strike force or HTR team showing up quickly would make sense. Additional unnecessary combat takes a great deal of time and should rule out other portions of the run that may be lucrative (in cash, goods, contacts and or karma). Runners who have maintained stealth, professionalism and kept the body count down should be able to complete more mission objectives, follow up on additional optional objectives, and collect more resources.

Something to be avoided is the extremes that some runners were allowed to go to in Virtual Seattle. I applaud the Missions team efforts in keeping more rigid controls on what is allowed in the Missions setting. This allows for better game balance. However, it may end up with all runners progressing more less the same. I believe this may reduce individuality, but hopefully over the long run that will not be the case.

Perhaps a non mission specific set of rules or guidelines for GMs to follow, as well as a branching, or more branching, decision tree for each mission. I say "non mission specific" because then they only need be guidelines that can be followed for all missions. A branching decision tree for each mission is harder to write, however, it allows for many more outcomes for each mission, many more ways of achieving the mission objectives, and time permitting more optional scenarios that could result in more resource rewards. This ultimately creates a more flexible environment that should please players as well as GMs. (GMs I spoke with desire more flexibility as well) When I say flexibility, think of the flexibility allowed a GM in a One Shot Adventure.

Of course, this should still fit in 4 hours. Which I believe can be achieved if a team is more prepared, more professional, engages in less combat, functions better together, does not overly plan or waste precious time. Basically, if they don't waste time then they can do more and earn more. This should result in players designing characters that are more flexible, being more knowledgable about the rules and their characters, being more familiar with how to be a professional shadowrunner, and not act like a thug, etc.etc.

I hope that was constructive. Either way I'm hooked.

One group of new players that I played with did go and purchase some SR books at the CON after playing a Missions game. So it must be working.

DB

Posted by: Dr. Black Dec 8 2004, 06:28 AM

Two other Items.

I did notice how it is virtually impossible to negotiate additional pay out of the Johnsons/fixers. In 5 missions I was only able to negotiate some expense reimbursements, and the potential offer for access to some wares(which no one took him up on interestingly enough). There was never an increase in the actual fee as a result of negotiations. Now, my character is Charisma 6 with Etiquette 6, Negotiation 6, Phsycology 6 and Kinesics 3. All the non missions runs I have played or GMed always involved a little negotiation and if the rolls or roleplaying was sufficient it resulted in a shift in pay - as would be expected in a negotiation. I always operate under the concept that the Fixer or Johnson intentionally low balls the pay in expectation that it will get negotiated up.

How many missions per year are we looking at. Rumor said 6. Is that correct?

Posted by: linei Dec 8 2004, 12:19 PM

Posted by: the_dunner Dec 8 2004, 02:12 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 8 2004, 03:50 PM

who said i was sane to begin with??!?!?

okey dokey...i WILL say that most of the demo adventures certainly are non-linear and provide for multiple paths to reach the common goal, or even open ended to where you can have more than one outcome.

the first story arc adventure, as i've already stated, is a little heavy handed in the deus ex machina department in order to work it into the SOTA2064 book.

the second and third, which debuted at this con, although well received, i think are the focus of your comments, and i've received comments back from the GMs as well - these adventures are being tweaked now before being released again...

as for negotiating, the others have it pegged...I have designed the adventures so that it is difficult for lower reputation characters to negotiate extras or more money - those with higher skills and more reputation should have an easier time. with that said - and with the skills you mentioned, i can only assume what the others have said - either you had bad luck or the GM was not flexible...

I think the GM flexibility thing is definitely an issue. I think that most of us remember the problems from VS, and that they see that we're trying to keep a tight rein on things so that they don't blow out of control. however, as i mentioned above, we are trying to write the adventures so that they are non linear and have multiple paths to do things. for example, the adventures should have 3 ways of getting something done - the magic way, the matrix way, and the mundane way. if you have a tech wiz in the party, they are going to try to do things that way - if you don't have a tech wiz, you'll never know that this option was available more than likely. How you get from Point A to Point Z is certainly up to the GM, and the adventures obviously cannot cover everything - they instead (and it is written as such) say that "here are some common scenarios that the runners may attempt". As long as a GM is comfortable going "outside the box" and keeps any "looting" to a level commensurate with that in the given scenarios, and the "spirit" of the adventure is maintained, then the GM can roll out that flexibility. However, i think most are cautious about doing so. It will just take some time, but until then, i'll try to add to the GM section of the website more information about flexibility.

for those that haven't read this section of the website, here is what is already there that adresses the flexibility issue:

Posted by: Dr. Black Dec 8 2004, 11:54 PM

Bit,

From what you have said, and what I observed/played I would guess that the GMs were being cautious about additional pay, looting, etc. That is a good thing. I think perhaps all this discussion is good for the GMs to know how much flexibility is reasonable and in keeping with the Missions design concept. Certainly settles many questions/nagging issues in my mind.

As for my rolls? Who knows, with Kinesics 3 and 6s in every else I figured I should have walked all over them for negotiation/etiquette situations. We role played allot in those areas, and to be honest, I dont remember rolling as much as roleing. As the face, though, I felt it my responsibility to come up with some additional perks for the team.

Thanks for all the responses.

Lastly, I want to see the Missions be as fun to GM as a one shot adventure is. I *distinctly* got the feeling that those were more fun for the GMs and that might translate to more fun for the players as well. And fun is what we are all after.

DB

Posted by: Ecclesiastes Dec 9 2004, 12:00 AM

Dr. Black, I don't even remember anyone asking for more money in the game I ran. In fact, out of the three missions games that I ran, only in one did it get mentioned and all the other players told the guy who asked to keep quiet (which I couldn't help but laugh at).

Posted by: linei Dec 9 2004, 12:09 AM

Posted by: Ecclesiastes Dec 9 2004, 12:17 AM

I wouldn't bother giving them a hint. If they don't remember it isn't our fault. I just thought it was great when I had one guy ask about it (the street sam) and the other players (ya know... the ones with the social skills) told him they were getting enough already.

Posted by: Dr. Black Dec 9 2004, 02:58 AM

Ecclesiastes,

Don't get defensive. I am not attacking anyone in my posts. Being the face character I always ask and try to negotiate where possible. The run with you was Forced Recon and as you explained the more info we acquired the more we would get paid. That kind of put the damper on the whole negotiate for more pay concept. In restrospect there may have been an opportunity to negotiate for more pay at the end of the adventure, and I started to make the usual stink a face makes about needing to get paid more. You explained the pay scale and the amount we got and played that we were being well compensated as we completed most of the goals.

To me, that is negotiating. You did not have me make any negotiation rolls to see if Lyle was going to pay more, so I figured it was not negotiable. Perhaps I should have pressed the point and demanded that we roll negotiations. Of course you only had 3 hours of sleep and no prep time. I had been playing for 12 hours that day and was pretty tired. I do not blame you. I am merely inquiring the powers that be and explaining my experiences so that Missions can be the best it can be. Afterall, this is supposed to help keep player and GM interest in the game system and continue to sell materials.

GMs, if the players start to negotiate IC about the pay, have them roll for it, or if they negotiate IC well then skip the Rolls and make a decision on whether extra pay or compensation is warranted.

DB

Posted by: Ecclesiastes Dec 9 2004, 11:06 PM

I wasn't defensive, sorry if my post came off that way. Its all good.

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 10 2004, 03:37 PM

i will say that GMs should go by the guide that excellent ROLE PLAYING obviates the need for ROLL PLAYING...

IMNSHO, you only need to be rolling if you as a player are not suave and/or quick witted in real life enough to sound good.

and yes, i have had players that have negotiated through role playing successfully - whereas if they had rolled, they could have botched it...

also remember that as a GM, you can modify the target numbers based on the player's role playing as well - if the player talks a good game and is very convincing, you can apply a modifier to the target number to make their rolling more effective. Keep in mind that you still don't need to tell the player the real or adjusted target number.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 10 2004, 05:59 PM

So a good actor/smooth-talker can play a Troll with Charisma 1, no Etiquette, and Uncouth and get by?

~J

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 10 2004, 07:29 PM

MAYBE!

the point i was trying to get across is that if a player has a character with a high charisma, but the player does not in real life, then you have the dice to fall back on - however, role playing should be encouraged...

now, with that said, it is theoretically possible for a character with a Charisma of 1 and no etiquette to be able to roll a very high number on a skill test - that, however, is only one success - he can also roll Karma Pool dice to augment that test...and once again, could roll really high...is it going to happen? not likely, but that chance is still there. HOWEVER, the GM should be taking this into consideration.

if a Johnson and said character are negotiating, and the character says
"Look, wanker, i'm puttin' me butt on da line here and i knows dis is a tuff nut to crack - you know my rep - i'm gonna git da job done, or you can hump me ma! so'z ifn you want me to be on dis team for da fire support i know, and you know, dey are gonna need, i'm gonna need some up front money for a few supplies.."

now, if i'm the GM, and a character says that to me, and he's playing a troll with gunnery skills, a Charisma of 1, has no etiquette or other social skills, and his background says he's uncouth (because we don't use Flaws of course), then, the first thing i'm going to do is turn around at the table and try to keep from laughing my own ass off, and then i'm going to turn back and tell him that the Johnson seems to have a slight smile break his otherwise business-like exterior for a split second, and then tell him that the Johnson will agree to a small percentage up front for such expenses, maybe 20%...i'm not going to make him roll any dice for it...

on the other hand, if the player says "my character says to the Johnson - hey, i'm going to need some ammo for this run, you cheap bastard! We're going to need some money up front, say...1,000 nuyen?" then i'm going to have the character roll for it...

back to the first guy though, keep in mind that there's going to be little or no wiggle room for further negotiation - the player impresses me, he gets a 'cookie'...

along with that - later on the same troll goes to a party, and needs to get in without an invitation. the player says to the maitre d' "excuse me, sir, but i believe that i've misplaced my invitation. i know that i had it right here wrapped around this certified credstick for 1,000 nuyen". now, in this case, he's not acting in character - the character, in fact, is trying to act - this is definitely going to require a skill check...

so, i stick by my original answer...MAYBE!

Posted by: Donner Dec 12 2004, 12:41 AM

Posted by: Fortune Dec 12 2004, 01:38 AM

I, on the other hand, find it silly that every single Shadowrunner in SRM should be squeamish when it comes to wetwork.

Posted by: Donner Dec 12 2004, 04:05 AM

Heh, well, in a game where we play orcs, trolls, dwarves and elves who gad about in a magical world wearing dusters, using cyberware and smgs, and essentially play freelance, fringe criminals who hire out for corporate espionage, "silly" may be in the eye of the beholder-- which makes your point as valid as any.

I prefer to think of the ones who actually assassinate the opposition as being in-house. If you're going for "no survivors", you may as well use your really well-equipped hit squad.

It all depends on the flavour you want. It's quite possible to play a home SR campaign where you're all "stone killers", or "amoral professional and/or angst-filled pros from Dover", or whatever, who collect Bad Karma.

However, this is a multi-area campaign for public consumption, designed to highlight the system and let as many people as possible cooperate in fun play.

I don't think that too many professional wetwork people play well with others, unles you want to do the "Whole Nine Yards" gig, which is just as silly. Frankly, it would be better for my bottom line if my "team-mates" didn't survive, either.

So, since we suspend disbelief and play in this terrific fantasy world, we can also choose to suspend disbelief and, for the sake of escapism, play shadowrunners who are cool, crisp, professional, nova-dangerous-- but draw the line at profiting the way that the scum that are usually after them do.

Perhaps not "heroes"-- but not just one more group of scum. The Sixth World has plenty of scum around already.

Or, to put it another way, not every group of Shadowrunners is squeamish about wetwork-- and we may end up having to go after the ones who like it too much.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 12 2004, 04:37 AM

I think people should be allowed to play their characters they way they like. If everyone in SRM is required to think along the same lines as far as wetwork (or anything) is concerned, it seems to me that this would stretch the suspension of belief to the breaking point. Forcing everyone to think along the same lines is, as i said, silly, and detracts from people's fun, and the game as a whole.

The fact that we disagree is a sign that not every player (or character) thinks, or even should think the same way.

It shouldn't have to be an either/or situation, where people are either ultra moralistic or 'stone cold killers'. There is some middle ground ... quite a bit in my opinion.

As for 'Bad Karma', that is just a poorly implemented idea. The less said about those rules, the better.

Why would a Corp use its own in-house team for assassinations? There is still the possibility of a screw up, and deniability would be top priority in this type of work.

If, as you say, we end up going after the ones that like it too much, isn't that still wetwork in and of itself?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 12 2004, 04:38 AM

I personally find the concept of a moral Shadowrun campaign to be absurd. Morality belongs in the characters IMO, not the campaign, though I admit it is more difficult to make provisions for players whose characters walk on certain mission offerings.

~J

Posted by: Donner Dec 12 2004, 05:32 AM

Which is better: to end up having players walk because they won't play murderers, or to have them walk because they can't play murderers?

Better not to have them walk, period, so give options. When your scenario has Mr. Johnson give the characters their assignment, killing the target is better given as "only one of the options" (and in my opinion, the one used by the ones who just aren't good enough to get the job done otherwise).

The concept of "moral" Shadowrunners is not silly at all. Check out the huge amount of "rebels against the unjust ruler" fiction in China, Japan, Europe and, within the last couple of centuries, North America. People who have extraordinary abilities and who are very deadly, who can kill (and often end up doing so)-- but who do so not for simple personal profit, but for a moral and usually unavoidable reason.

You could easily think of them as Shadowrunners. Outlaws against "The Man"-- is that not what Shadowrunners are portrayed as being? They do the corporations' dirty work, but that's because they prefer to live marginalised, rather than become corporate wage-slaves. And there's a strong theme, in the source material, of Shadowrunners as "Street People" or the new "Heroes of the People", not simply as a bunch of cybered-up urban thugs.

Anyway, this is likely one on which we'll just have to agree to disagree. Coming full circle, I'm glad to support a campaign that lets the characters be pros at corporate espionage, without forcing them to play contract killers. I'm, sure that there will be plenty of opportunities for us to be tough metas and cap some of the opposition along the way, without it being the raison d'etre.

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 12 2004, 05:13 PM

Keep in mind that this thread is for Questions about the campaign...

there are certainly plenty of threads over on the main Shadowrun forum for discussing this, and how some people think the game has evolved from its roots, etc...i don't want to get into that here...

with that said, I realize that there is a variety of player types out there. therefore, from time to time, there will be a mission that will require a little "mayhem", whether it be a wetwork mission, a "de"construction mission, or something else that requires a big show of force and violence. You will always be able to recognize these from the blurb alone so that you'll know what to expect.

the focus, however, is on the 'typical' shadowrun - the characters are supposed to be shadows, ghosts, unseen and deniable assets that penetrate where others cannot and get out without leaving a trace. basically, most of the missions will revolve around corporate espionage. but why do we do this?? why don't we just use the same skills to break into jewelry stores?? well, you certainly could use your skills that way, but the spirit of the game is that you are helping to ensure that the corporations remain balanced. you are a small cog in a big machine. the governments are, for the most part, ineffectual at controlling the corporations. the Corporate Court only gets involved with major disputes. your jobs as shadowrunners is to stay in the shadows! low profile individuals that help the downtrodden (if you came from the streets) or keep the corps in check - you don't want to let one corporation get too strong, or else it will suppress choice, freewill, and all that good stuff.

that's why soon, in the story arc, you'll be hired by forces (not necessarily DocWagon!) that will want you to do runs against Rose Croix - why? because you can't let them get so powerful that they scrub DocWagon out of Seattle.

As shadowrunners, you're part of the checks and balances that keeps the free market alive. You're just like special ops units and spies that governments don't talk about; the ones that they use to send into other countries to destabilize the economy, promote dissention among the people, and in some extreme cases, assassinate problematic opposition leaders.

it's your professionalism that keeps you from devolving into common theft. you are a cut above - your skills are offered to the highest bidder, and you'll work for money, sure. but there is a difference between taking a job for a drug dealer that requires you to go and rough up some homeless guy that can't pay for his drugs. working for the faceless corps is normally a 'victimless' crime. if you get in, steal a datafile, and get out without having to kill anyone or destroy anything, then you're not 'hurting' the corps - they've already figured it into the price of doing business. but if you go too far, take more than you're supposed to, kill a valuable scientist, etc, then you've started to impact their bottom line, the moral of those that work around them, etc.

it is definitely a fine line that shadowrunners walk, and sometimes it is a moral one. and not to get all mushy about it, but exploring that conflict and moral dilemmas that arise is what the game is all about - what can you as the player learn from the decisions you have your character make??

that is what we primarily mean about playing a "moral" campaign...read the novels - you'll see that conflict, the moral dilemmas, and how the characters come out of it - you're protagonists, unlikely and unwilling heroes sometimes, but it is there for you to read. they don't rob liquor stores in the novels - yes, you're criminals, by definition, but it is a matter of perspective...

...and that's my 2 opinion...by printing this out and taking it to the local coffee shop with $2, you can buy yourself a cup of fresh hot coffee!

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 12 2004, 05:30 PM

The fundamental thing here is that they do the corporations' dirty work. They're only "against the Man" in the most hypocritical of senses.

As long as options are given for people to be cold-blooded killers (and better yet, for "moral" Shadowrunners to be on a team with the cold-bloodeds and have to determine what they're going to do about it) and they're not punished for it outside the scope of in-game consequences (for instance, not getting docked karma just because they don't take the non-violent route), I'd say things are fine.

And I think I will print that out and take it with me to the coffee shop, just to see what they say

~J

Posted by: Donner Dec 12 2004, 06:02 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 12 2004, 06:16 PM

But on the other hand, if the mission specs say "under no circumstances may this be allowed to be discovered" and someone stumbles on something they shouldn't have and you go with a weak and unreliable solution like Alter Memory or just threatening them a lot instead of killing them, or better yet setting up a situation elsewhere where a lot of people (one of whom is the stumbler) get killed in an "unrelated incident", the team should hose their rep and karma.

In some situations, violent solutions call too much attention. In others, nonviolent solutions are too damn unreliable, and that unreliability is going to hose your rep far more than gunning everyone down. There's more work for cannon fodder than for someone who can't be counted on to get the job done.

~J

Posted by: Donner Dec 12 2004, 06:55 PM

I agree with this example. It would pose a severe moral dilemma for shadowrunners who wanted to avoid killing.

Of course, one could say that, unless the scenario forced this scene, the runners had already hosed the situation somewhat by not being ghostlike enough on their covert mission. The example is a bit general, though. If some guard burst in and you stunned him or her immediately, and you presumably have your faces covered or disguised, and the guard therefore only knows that somebody was in the facility, with no clue as to what happened...

A lot different form having your naked faces on camera while your hands are in the cookie jar, but frankly your career is likely over then anyway, so why compound it with murder?

I agree, however, that the situation you describe could come up. That's where the runners, if they don't like murder, make one of those life-changing decisions, if they don't have the requisite magic or other methodology to erase memories. And that decision may well be, "Oops, I blew it; Shadowrunner is not what I'm meant to be--- I'll end up having to kill too many people, 'cause I'm no good at this". So stun the guard and run like hell.

Or they can just geek the guy and start their fall to the Dark Side-- oops, wrong game. I mean, they end up becoming the monsters that much of society unjustly says that all Shadowrunners are.

Posted by: Dr. Black Dec 12 2004, 07:02 PM

Its funny that we are talking about not being killers, about not being involved in combat situations, when the majority of the game system is designed around very deadly combat.

SR3 Book - Look at the skill web/ err skill lists. Mostly combat skills. What chapter follows the skills chapter. Combat. Then Vehicles, with mostly rules on vehicle combat. Magic is well balanced, as is decking. Legwork/face type duties barely get mentioned. The gear section has alot of guns, heavy weapons, grenades, rockets/missiles, grenades, explosives.

Much of the artwork throughout the core books shows someone in combat, or sporting some heavy ware.

Canon companion is all about combat. Rigger 3, just look at the cover. Man and Machine, same there.

If Missions is supposed to represent what is espoused in the books, then alot of combat is gonna happen. However, it seems that we are to suppress 75% of the printed material and focus on stealth, legwork, face duties.

How many runners have you played missions with used nonlethal weaponry? There is a short list on purely nonlethal weapons. Otherwise its Gel rounds or capsules with some ridiculously expensive chemicals. Have you seen the number of lethal ammo types? (standard, explosive, ex explosive, APDS, AV, Glazer, Mercury, Incendiary, Hollow Point, Tracer, etc.)

Most the people I have played with over the last 7 missions carried lethal weaponry (that includes their ammo choices). It just happens that we rarely entered combat and so far only 2 NPCs have died as a result.

Its a hard pill to swallow in the missions campaign that we are to be invisible and not engage in lethal combat when that seems to be the focus of the main book, core books, and many supplements.

While I agree with Bitrunner, and the Robin Hoodish moral concept, it does not seem in keeping with the written materials.

DB

Posted by: KarmaInferno Dec 12 2004, 09:02 PM

What RPG out there does NOT have most of the rules revolving around combat?

It's the nature of combat itself - it requires more structure than any other part of a game, regardless of genre or setting.

Heck, I play Spycraft - if there ever was a game that stresses NOT fighting MORE than Shadowrun, that one's it. And yet they have detailed man and vehicle scale combat rules taking up most of the meat of the rules.


-karma

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 12 2004, 09:25 PM

remember that now there is a distinction between Karma and Reputation...

while Karma is used in determining one's Reputation, it is not the only source - you can add to Reputation directly, and there is Negative Reputation as well...

some of the Missions adventures already written deal with adding to a character's Reputation score directly and/or giving them "Infamy" points....

Also, remember that most combat is there as a last resort. it is like insurance - you have the weapons, and the skills, but hope you never have to use them...

Since this is NOT the RPGA, we no longer have to depend on having combat - for those that remember, or were a part of the RPGA, their writing guidelines made mention of having a certain formula for adventures, which included one minor combat or puzzle, and one major combat. In Missions, the goal is that you can complete the run without ever having to fire a (deadly) weapon. Narcojetting a guard to get past is one thing - that doesn't count - killing him is another...

A good example of what we're shooting for here (pardon the pun) is what happened in a recent running of Mission Briefing. The team had one character standing at the mouth of the path leading to the building, all by himself - he got hit with just about everything. And in every instance, he kept his cool, and his professionalism - no matter what i threw at him, which was everything but the drones and the Halloweeners, he stood firm - until the police arrived to investigate some strange reports. Even then, after getting the drop on the cops and disarming them, he never fired a shot (he was not stupid enough to kill the cops) but instead took off running and left the mission, rather than endanger it further...a minor slip, but he stayed in character through the whole game and every situation. Even with Rolando, who tried to draw him into a fight, he held his professionalism...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 13 2004, 12:13 AM

There is, for a careful runner, no meaningful difference nearly all of the time between Narcojecting that guard and killing him or her.

That includes the cops.

~J

Posted by: Gremish Dec 14 2004, 02:00 AM

Ok how exactly do i get involved in one of the running campains or missions here i been looking around and cant seem to find a clear answer.... i ben playing SR for 2 years ect as a GM ive loved it but ide like to PC a little bit so here seemed like a good place to start =) TY for anyone who answers

Posted by: the_dunner Dec 14 2004, 02:14 PM

Take a look in the "Play Shadowrun Missions" forum in this thread. People tend to post events that they're running there.

Alternatively, you can check out http://www.commandohq.com/CurrentEvents.asp and see if any Fanpro Commandos near you are running an event.

Other options are:
A) See if there's a gaming convention in your area. If there is, have them get in touch with bitrunner, and he'll try and get them set up with the adventures to run.

B) Same as A, only do it at a game shop.

C) Sucker one of your buddies into GMing, and get him to download the first few missions
http://www.srrpg.com/missions/

I couldn't figure out where you were located from your profile, if it's in the Ohio/Michigan area, drop me an PM, and I can get you some more specific info about events I have scheduled.

Posted by: TimberWolf Dec 15 2004, 01:43 AM

If you're in the Mid-Michigan area, let me know, as I am trying to get a table of the first few at CARP and we have a group who wants to play.

Posted by: Donner Dec 20 2004, 03:19 AM

Posted by: Gremish Dec 20 2004, 09:40 AM

Im from michigan =) droping PM now =P

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 20 2004, 10:59 PM

Posted by: Kax Dec 21 2004, 04:40 AM

Posted by: Deacon Dec 22 2004, 09:28 AM

Posted by: Elbandit Feb 28 2005, 12:22 AM

I am gearing up to run Shadowrun Missions for my home group and I am seeking the Campaign Information Package that was mentioned in the player handout portion of the modules. Can someone point me to the location to download it?

Mostly I am trying to figure out how to fill out those SRM Player activity Logs.

Thanks!

Posted by: Dark father Feb 28 2005, 12:58 AM

Most information is available on the SRM section on the shadowrun website at http://www.srrpg.com . If you have any additional questions about the logs, feel free to ask here.

Posted by: Elbandit Feb 28 2005, 01:21 AM

Well I was hoping that the Campaign Information Package would out line the game for me similar to the RPGA packets. However here are the questions that instantly pop into my mind:

What determines if the table is Green, Streetwise, Professional, Vetern or Elite? Is it based on thier Karma Pool?

Can Shadowrun mission runners operate as a team and keep a team karma pool?

I noticed on the sample Shadowrunner activity log there was an entry of healing. How long does it take to heal? Is it based on the core rules and the rolls rounded up? Or is there a set time?

I presume only one activity can be performed each week.. such as healing, creating a formula for a new spell, is that true?

Posted by: Dark father Feb 28 2005, 03:27 AM

Posted by: Elbandit Feb 28 2005, 03:49 AM

Howdy!

Thanks for the answers, I am happy to see the table level in the other modules.

Got an additional question. Can you seek more than one piece of equiptment at a time in a given week?

I may be thinking too hard about the Activity log but it seems like there is a more to it.

Posted by: linei Feb 28 2005, 08:41 AM

As for Team Karma, consider this:
If you plan on doing SRM strictly according to the rules, so that characters may be used later for playing at conventions or the like, team karma might not be allowed there.

Posted by: SaintHax Feb 28 2005, 09:40 PM

Posted by: Elbandit Feb 28 2005, 10:28 PM

Many thanks SaintHax!

You cleared up my confusion. I was apparently thinking about this too hard. Darn RPGA memories!

Posted by: bitrunner Mar 1 2005, 05:31 PM

SaintHax is correct....and remember, you can't use those four letters in that combination here!

we're running the simpler, kinder campaign...

Posted by: bitrunner Mar 1 2005, 05:27 PM

as for the table rankings, here is the info you are all anxiously seeking:

Some NPCs may be adjusted based on the composition of the player characters at the table. To reflect this adjustment, a value known as the Table Rating (TR) is used. The TR value can be used to increase the number of opponents, various attributes, skills, or pools, or whatever else is necessary to pose a challenge to the player characters. It can also sometimes be used to determine the pay and other rewards for an assigned mission (so that Prime Runners aren't getting paid 1,000 nY to do a mission)

The TR value can be determined by the predominate makeup of the table’s characters, or by finding the average of all the characters by adding up their Total Career Good Karma and dividing by the number of players. Then consult the chart below to determine the class of the table based on where the average Karma fits.

The TR value is based on the following:

TR Class Karma Range
1 Green 0 - 19
2 Streetwise 20 - 49
3 Professional 50 - 89
4 Veteran 90 - 149
5 Elite 150 - 249
6 Prime Runner 250 +

Posted by: TimberWolf Mar 1 2005, 11:25 PM

So THAT's what that's for. I thought it was the average skill level of players... Oops. So, my table would be green, then, because they were all new characters.... Okay. So I need to fix that on my player's log sheets next time I get the chance...

Oh, and where do I send the Event Summary Report? I know there's an address, but for the life of me can't remember where it is.

Posted by: bitrunner Mar 1 2005, 11:28 PM

you can just post it to me online - just type it in so that it looks like that form - you can just put the "number" for the questions...

for instance (a very short version):

GM Name
GM Address

# Players

Player Handouts: 4
NPCs: 4
Overall Adventure: 5

etc.

Posted by: bitrunner Mar 1 2005, 11:26 PM

yeah, for instance, if the average Total Career Good Karma for the table is 25 points, then the TABLE is considered Streetwise - note that you could have GREEN and PRO (or higher) players at the table....

from that, the pay for the adventure could be TR * 1000 nY per player, so the players would each receive 2,000 nY for their pay...when facing an NPC that has a Karma Pool of TR, that NPC has a Karma Pool of 2.

(note that sometimes things might be based on an INDIVIDUAL's TR, rather than the groups - there might be a time when someone is paid solely on their Reputation, which would be used as if it were TCGK (there are some out there that have gotten higher Reps than their TCGK rating!) or a particularly nasty NPC is scaled based on the highest person at the table)

Posted by: Mr. Man Mar 16 2005, 12:41 AM

So when will SRM be converting to SR4?

Will all of the existing modules be converted over?

Posted by: the_dunner Mar 16 2005, 01:41 AM

Magic 8-ball says:

Ask again later, future is cloudy.

Posted by: Rieal82 Mar 16 2005, 03:40 AM

Whats this about SR4??

Posted by: linei Mar 16 2005, 08:01 AM

http://www.shadowrunrpg.com

Posted by: walks-in-blizzard May 24 2005, 01:33 PM

Hello everyone, i'm new on this board and not a native speaker.

Please tell me where to send an email to get the runs not available on www.srrpg.com.

I've already send one mail to bitrunner, but i just read that he's out of business or somethin' like that.

Posted by: linei May 24 2005, 01:39 PM

Posted by: Elve Jul 5 2005, 11:26 AM

Since I cant oopen a new thread in this forum...

What can I do to receive the Missions Adventures?
I have written 2 mails already with the points mentioned in the threads around here, but I got no answer...

So what else?

Or can anyone around here just mail them to me? (then PM)

Thx

Posted by: linei Jul 5 2005, 11:57 AM

You may download the first four adventures at the http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/missions/downloads/.

All other adventures have to be requested.
Answers to these requests may take a while as the post of Missions Coordinator is in a state of flux ... kind of.
Just hang in there ... you should get an answer ...

Posted by: CrystalBlue Jul 5 2005, 05:20 PM

I know this might sound a bit stupid, but could you look over my character here and tell me if I'm getting things right. I'm using the core rules, MITS, and CC to assemble this character. Please let me know if I'm doing something wrong, as the rules listed in the chracter generation topic were a bit fuzzy to me.

Human Fox Totem Shaman
A - Magic
B - Attributes
C - Resources
D - Skills
E - Race

Bod 4, Qui 5, Str 4, Cha 3, Int 5, Wis 6
Pistols 5, Unarmed 3, Sorcery 6, Athletics 4, Stealth 3, Etiquette 3, Biotech 3, Submachine Guns 3.

Physical Camouflage 6, Nova 6, Manabolt 4, Physical Mask 4, Deflect 4, Double Image 4

Browning Ultra-Power with 4 full clips, HK227 with 4 clips, 2 Ares Light Fire 70's with 4 clips, 3 concealable quickdraw holsters, Secure Clothing, Secure Vest.

Posted by: the_dunner Jul 5 2005, 05:36 PM

Looks mostly fine. You still have around 10K to spend on lifestyle, and you'll need to flesh out your two free contacts.

Posted by: Casazil Jul 5 2005, 08:16 PM

10,015 to be exact to spend on lifestyle, car (public transportation sucks), how about a melee weapon?, some magical gear although a magical library is out for now, silencers? for your guns, Smartlink system and goggles for you, Gloves no need to leave those pesky fingerprints behind.

Just some thoughts cause ya can't really keep the money (at least not all of it).

Anyway as is your character looks good and adds up with room to spare hope to see you in the shadows soon (at least as long as we are on the same side lol).

Posted by: Fortune Jul 6 2005, 02:30 AM

If you aren't interested in Conjuring, you might be better off with a Sorcerer (who can still be a Fox Shaman).

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 6 2005, 02:37 AM

No Projection that way.

~J

Posted by: Fortune Jul 6 2005, 03:43 AM

I understand that. It was merely a suggestion based on the minute amount of info we have about the character in question, in case the Player wasn't aware of that option.

In return for losing Projection (and Conjuring), he would get more Spell Points and a different Priority spread.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 6 2005, 04:27 AM

I assumed you would, but if the player hasn't already considered that option they might not be aware of the full scope of its drawbacks (or advantages, to be fair).

~J

Posted by: CrystalBlue Jul 6 2005, 12:09 PM

Hehe. Please explain what you're talking about. Because I don't know. I am a sorcerer, but I didn't know that those options were avalible. I use the NSRCG, so I just picked what I could.

Posted by: Fortune Jul 6 2005, 02:10 PM

A Sorcerer uses Priority B (25 Build Points) for Magic, but can only cast spells. Actually, he can use most of the other Magic skills (like Enchanting or Aura Reading), but does not have the ability to use Conjuring or Astrally Project (although he can still use Astral Perception).

Sorcerers receive 35 Spell Points at chargen, instead of the 25 given to full Mages.

Posted by: CrystalBlue Jul 6 2005, 02:32 PM

But I thought I read that non-full mages could only go up to half their magic value in the force of their spells. Or did I read that wrong? Anyway, would I still be able to fight and defend myself on myself astrally? I know I can only percieve. But I know there will be times I'll be screwed over by astral beings or other mages like that.

Also, I was under the impression that I had to put spell points into spirits to summon them. If that's the case, I'll be hard-pressed if I'm a full mage to actually have some versatility.

Posted by: Fortune Jul 6 2005, 03:32 PM

Posted by: CrystalBlue Jul 6 2005, 04:57 PM

The way I took the definition of aspected mage was to mean a mage that had much more versatility, but could never reach the magic power of a normal mage. Hence why they get 35 spell points instead of 25.

I think I'll stay with full, though. I don't like the idea of limiting my abilities in the astral plane. Having astral projection helps me get places I need to be.

Posted by: SaintHax Jul 16 2005, 11:56 AM

Being Aspected has nothing to do w/ power. An Aspected mage can become more powerful than a full mage, or less, depending on the characters. An Aspected Mage is a specialist b/c he's forced to be one-- he can't do as many magical skills as a full mage. A full mage, by contrast can spread himself thin across many magic skills or specialize in one area while enjoying the benifits of additional magical talents.

So, it's not a difference of power, but a difference of approach.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 16 2005, 01:13 PM

Nope, Aspected Mages are just cripples. They have been born with part of a "magical limg", so to speak, missing and the idea that they're still just as worthwhile as people is, of course, utterly absurd.

~J

Posted by: CrystalBlue Aug 1 2005, 12:33 PM

Alright. I planned on running SR Missions at my local group. But I have a big problem. Most of them might not know what SR is. I don't want to teach them 3rd Edition, only to have to switch to 4th Edition a week later. Isn't there a primer or something that 4th could release before Gen Con that'll at least let me make simple characters?

And how will SR Missions change once 4th Edition hits? Will the old missions still be playable? I doubt it, as they'll be before the crash and the new rules will be hard to translate.

Posted by: linei Aug 1 2005, 12:40 PM

There is - to my knowledge - no access to any SR4 rules as of this time.

SR Missions will continue to use SR3 rules until the end of the current campaign - sometime next year IIRC.
The next SR Missions campaign - IF there'll be one - will use SR4 rules.

Posted by: CrystalBlue Aug 1 2005, 01:04 PM

Alright. Although, it's a little disapointing to hear that SR missions might not have another campaign.

Posted by: grendel Aug 1 2005, 07:59 PM

There are definite plans to continue SR Missions under SR4. Currently we're looking at generating a new story arc beginning where SR4 begins as well as publishing new guidelines for character generation that conform to SR4 rules. I can't say yet whether or not there will be conversion rules for taking SR3 missions characters into the SR4 missions.

Posted by: Dark father Aug 2 2005, 12:55 AM

Thanks for the info, I'm really looking to that!

Posted by: Toecutter Aug 23 2005, 07:36 PM

Grendel,

As a player of VS since 99, I want to tell you that SR:M is dead in the water for many players in my circles if you don't allow for a conversion. I realize the time-line jumps, but I'm sure the creative folks at FanPro can come up with something

Posted by: Skalchemist Aug 23 2005, 08:48 PM

Edit: Sorry, posted in wrong forum by accident.

I live in Hamilton, Ontario. At Gencon last week, I played Shadowrun for the first time since the early 90's, and enjoyed it greatly. Are there any GM's running games within reasonable driving distance of Hamilton interested in another player?

BTW, kudo's to the GM (if he is reading this or not) who ran "Mission Briefing" for us. Well done.

Hans, a.k.a. Babylon the very recently created Shadowrun character.

Posted by: Wintermancer Aug 24 2005, 01:22 AM

Bah, I'm a tard--deleting this because someone already answered my question before I actually got the question out.

Posted by: grendel Aug 24 2005, 03:23 AM

I'm sorry, Toecutter, SR4 mechanics are just too different to allow a conversion between editions. However, returning SR:Missions players will be allowed to transfer their karma from their 3rd edition character to their 4th edition characters.

Posted by: PlainWhiteSocks Aug 25 2005, 12:07 AM

My concern is less about the game mechanics and more about the character concept / background. Would it be possible to recreate a character in SR4 and apply the good karma gained from the SR3 Missions thus keeping the background, concept and general flavor of the character? Maybe have a Commando eventually look over the character and give some sort of blessing.

This might be an easy pill to swallow than starting completely from scratch.

Posted by: grendel Aug 25 2005, 12:10 AM

Yes, the world of Shadowrun hasn't changed. The mean streets of Seattle are the same under 4th Edition as they were under 3rd edition. There will be some differences, of course, because of the new method of character generation as well as some limits on availability for starting equipment. But your basic 4th Edition character resembles your basic 3rd Edition character in many aspects.

Posted by: toturi Aug 29 2005, 01:20 PM

I am posting this as feedback. I have just run Double Cross and after I ran the scenario as I normally do, I allowed my players to read it. This is the opinion of my group: We are disturbed about the high frequency of NPCs whose stats are "as good as you need him to be" that are nowhere the level of Ultimate NPCs. These virtual ultimate NPCs and blanket rail-roading statements like "no way the PCs can discover X" detract from the gaming experience.

There are so many ways to screw up this scenario for the GM but as the scenario states that the plot will not be derailed, then the PCs no longer have any control over the outcome of the plot. It simply boils down to working towards a predetermined conclusion.

Posted by: the_dunner Aug 29 2005, 01:38 PM

It's hard to answer your feedback without introducing spoilers, but --

Yes, Double Cross is a railroad. No question about it. I had a very similar reaction to yours the first time I read the adventure. Decisions were made for the sake of the story arc that the first arc adventure would be a railroad.

It's my opinion that a well-run railroad can still be a fun adventure for both the players and the GMs. However, they aren't my preferred adventure style either. I don't feel that any of the other adventures in the SR3 arc are quite so forced, nor do I plan on introducing SR4 adventures that use that approach.

Posted by: Dark father Aug 29 2005, 03:14 PM

In a story-driven campaign, it's normal that some things are staged and forced. The runners take place in a larger scenario, and the writers must find how the runners will witness the events that unfold. Presenting story elements while the runners are direct witness isn't easy. "Railroading" is the simpler way to shove down story elements down players' throat. If not, there's indirect witnessing, but that's less interresting for the campaign. Without railroading, we would cross our fingers that the players will choose the right choices, and as an experienced gm, this is a very wrong thought to have...

The solution? There's no easy solution. Some players prefer learning about the history, appreciating more indirect witnessing. Some prefer taking place in the events. But in a campaign such as SRM, the later is more frequent, and fun in the end. I think some railroading might be the price to play.

Posted by: DAMBoy69 Apr 20 2006, 08:09 PM

Had a quick question or two:

When do you deal with buying stuff, research rolls, paying lifestyle bills, etc. Do you do it at the end or beginning of an adventure, or both?

If you fail to acquire an item, for example Availability 9 and miss the roll, how long do you have to wait to try again.

Noobie questions, thanks.

Posted by: linei Apr 20 2006, 08:42 PM