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Posted by: bitrunner Sep 18 2003, 01:04 PM

This topic is for any specific questions about character creation/concepts.

Some General Guidelines

Creating A Character

1. Obtain a copy of the latest SR3 core rule book (so that you have all the errata).
2. Turn to the section on creating characters
3. Create a character -OR- pick one of the pregenerated characters

Other Tips

OK, there are some limitations. Basically, let common sense be your guide.

* We only use the base rules. Unless otherwise stated, no optional rules are used. Therefore, things such as the martial arts expansion in CC are not used. Also, while the SR3Comp is an excellent reference and should be consulted for background information, we do not use the alternate point system, edges and flaws, metavariants, shapeshifters, or other special characters.
* Keep in mind that, especially during a convention, time is a precious commodity. As such, we sometimes simplify things in the interest of moving along the story. One of these things is decking - we will sometimes simplify decking down to a roll for finding/penetrating the system, finding/manipulating the file/node in question, and getting out of the system without drawing attention. We suggest that if you want to play a decker, make sure you have other skills that are useful to the team, such as combat skills, technical skills, etc. A rigger/decker makes a good combination.
* We do acknowledge and follow the ruling that characters cannot start with gear that has an Availability higher than 8, or Device Rating higher than 6.

Posted by: Blitz Sep 18 2003, 03:46 PM

If a player is utiliizing the NSRCG, can it safely be said that all characters made for SR Missions must be priority built with only the SR3 book loaded up? (You can add or remove certian books from being available)

Also, how is that dealt with for Magic, Cyberware or Bioware?

Is bioware available? Cultured? What about cyberware that only shows up in Man and Machine and not the core book?

Same thing for adept powers and magic totems/spells that only show up in MITS.

Also for Rigger 3...if you are playing a rigger are the rules and vehicles in Rigger 3 allowed or not?

Can you list which books are acceptable to draw from?

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 18 2003, 05:30 PM

Posted by: Deacon Sep 18 2003, 07:32 PM

Posted by: Blitz Sep 23 2003, 03:58 PM

To be quite honest, the exclusion of SR Companion is enough to make this idea not so attractive to me. I have never, and will never, create a character based on Priority because I think it's a bad system. It's too exclusive and takes away a lot of control of how a character is built. With the points system, there is much more flexibility available for my character's concepts to be realized.

In addition, this would prohibit ANY edges and flaws for any character, and there's the rub. I personally feel that edges and flaws are what gives characters flavor and personality. It helps define what makes them special and what personal faults they need to overcome. It gives roleplayers a basis to which a characters motivation is developed.

If you were setting this game up as ONLY requiring the use of the main book, then I could understand it not being available, but you are allowing all of the core books (MITS, Matrix, Rigger 3, Cannon Companion, etc.) so I cannot see why this book is not being allowed. Just like all those books, you can easily require that people have their little 3x5 cards with the blurb from the book....

Anyway, with that exclusion, I think you are going to lose a decent amount of interested parties. I know that in my group, I've known only ONE player that used the priority system in character gen.

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 23 2003, 04:10 PM

well, there's the old expression "you can't please all the people..."

the point system is an optional system, as are the addition of edges and flaws... it might discourage some players away, but i think we'll gain more new players to the genre as a whole if they know they can buy just the core rule book and create a character that will be on par with everyone else...

for the most part, (yes, there are a couple of exceptions, magic being the biggest) most of the other books are just "toys" that can be added on later as long as you have the nuyen. if someone starts the game and likes it, they'll be more inclined to purchase the extra books and therefore get the toys.

the Companion is just that - something extra with variations on how to do things from the "normal" method.

And, finally, we're planning on concentrating the campaign on the story and roleplaying. if you're the type of person that gets hung up on how your numbers are arranged for your character so that you get the most out of him at character creation, rather than getting close and modifying him slightly, well, i don't know what to say. and characters get their "flavor" and "personality" through the background you create for them and how you roleplay them, not some arbitrary items you picked from a list worth points. If your character is afraid of spiders, and needs to overcome this personal fault or needs motivation, you use ROLEPLAYING...you don't need to buy the Flaw: Phobia, Mild, Spiders... So, i fully encourage players to look over the Edges and Flaws if they need ideas for fleshing out their characters, but they apply these in the character's background through roleplaying, not by spending points...

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 23 2003, 04:13 PM

oh, and while 3x5 cards may be a good idea for a quick reference for the player - the requirement will be to have access to the book provided to the GM. a 3x5 card is not an official reference...

Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 23 2003, 04:22 PM

While I would love to be able to use sections of the companion for character creation, I have to say that I both understand and agree with the good reasons for disallowing it.

1) It's harder to (at a glance) determine if a character built on the point-based system is legal. With a priority based character generation, it's fairly obvious that the full mage with 1,000,000 nuyen in toys is illegal. With the point based system, it is neither simple nor obvious to make that determination.

2) Edges and Flaws would have to be gutted if they were allowed. A lot of the flaws simply don't make sense in a scenario-based environment. The modules aren't (and generally can't) be written to play off the flaws of various characters. So what if you took a high level hunted flaw if it never comes into play? Or an enemy? At a certain point, you'd end up with a shorter list and have everyone on the team take edges and flaws from the same dozen or so.

3) By cutting down on the powergaming that the edges, flaws, and point based generation can lead to (albino Gnome shaman with a starting willpower of 10, anyone?) you also cut down the relative level of opposition the group is likely to face. This makes the game much better in the sense that new players aren't going to be the victim of a bloodbath just because they can't make the numbers dance like a more experienced player. There will still be powergaming, but it's a little harder without the freedom of the point-based system.

I do have a question of my own. What will the geasa limiations/requirements be? Starting with cyberware and geasa allowed? Only certain geasa?

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 23 2003, 05:45 PM

Geasa

Now that is a good question...
First off, remember that a geas should affect your character at some point - otherwise it is not a limitation. So, for the 'Condition' geasa, you should follow the same guidelines that are used for the 'Time' geasa, ie it should affect your character about 50% of the time. So, while you could take 'Only in Urban surroundings' as a geas, this really doesn't limit your character too much, since 75% or more of all scenarios are going to take place in Seattle. So the question becomes one of definition - what is 'urban'...does 'suburban' count? where is that line drawn? It would be better to take a condition like 'Indoors' or 'Outdoors' - but keep in mind that you should not stack limitations either - for instance, taking a geas of 'Only at night' when you are an Owl shaman is kinda cheesy, since you already are taking a mod for this, so you're going to try to work at night anyways...I have also seen someone that took the condition of "Only when no one can see me casting the spell" as a limitation, and then wearing a sustaining focus with Invisibility on it...ah, no...

other than that, the only one i have heartburn with is the Fasting geas...i'll have to think on that some more...

Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 23 2003, 05:58 PM

Hmm... is there a reason Fast Reply isn't enabled in this thread?

Anyway, I was more concerned with "are they allowed" than the specifics. Since I'd probably be using an adept if the question came up, I'd probably just end up with one point of powers geased to exclusive.

Posted by: Blitz Sep 23 2003, 06:08 PM

It is a rare event that my edges and flaws dont balance out. And while I agree that a full and rich background is desireable and encouraged, rarely in events such as the ones you are planning to run here will allow the GM time to read over my background stories. Instead, GM's typically glance over the character SHEET to make sure nothing is over powering and to get a sense of the characters abilities and such. If my character has a phobia of spiders that may NEVER be roleplayed if the GM isn't aware of it and provides a situation for it to be addressed...or perhaps a traumatic event in a former life would cause flashbacks at the sight of magical fire...again..if the event doesn't happen, then the roleplaying aspect is lost.

In addition, what if your character has a special ability, like a mage with unusually fast reflexes, or a human that can see in the dark better than most. Perhaps your character made a valuable friend early in their career who they might want to call on on the future for a favor, or due to years of training and working with a biological toxin, they have developed an immunity to it. None of these can be added to the character through roleplaying alone because they have game mechanics to represent their special assets.

While I can understand not allowing any flavor text books to keep it simple, you ARE allowing all others. Im getting the sense that YOU personally don't like the options or have had bad experiences with people abusing the edges and flaws. However, you are allowing the other expansion books to be used that fall under the same category as the SR Companion.

If this is a game that is designed solely to bring new players into the game then it's definately something I'll refrain from. I was under the impression that it was a way to link up gamers in a truly epic storyline. Not exactly something I would picture for newbie players. I like the game in it's entirety and so with the restrictions you've placed, count me out.

Posted by: Deacon Sep 23 2003, 06:20 PM

Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 23 2003, 06:36 PM

Just add a one or two geasa limit at character gen. That lets those who want them take them without opening it up to abuse any more than necessary.

Posted by: Deacon Sep 23 2003, 06:38 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 23 2003, 08:13 PM

Those edges/flaws which provide some special ability, such as Night Vision for humans, can be replicated through SURGE or other special talents and can be obtained through campaign play...

As for bringing in newbies, well, to be honest, this campaign is part of the marketing strategy for FanPro, just as the RPGA and its games is a marketing ploy for Wizards of the Coast. The point is to keep interest in the game, and therefore attract new blood, who will purchase more books. For those that already are involved in Shadowrun, it is designed to keep their interest level high and continue to play the game, rather than move on to something else - hopefully they will continue to buy product as well. Some people would love to continue to play Shadowrun, but cannot because of geographical limitations, finances, or other reasons - this allows them to continue to participate as well.

While the adventures will be available to be ordered and played with your home group, it is NOT a home campaign - as has been mentioned, Edges and Flaws are, for the most part, something that can provide adventure hooks for your GM and can be developed in a home campaign - this is not something we're equipped to deal with.

Also, as a final note, Edges and Flaws are OPTIONAL, and we do not use any optional rules in order to keep things simple...they are NOT part of the core rules, as many people seem to think.

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 23 2003, 08:17 PM

oh, and i forgot to add...

Posted by: last_of_the_great_mikeys Sep 23 2003, 10:19 PM

Hmmm...you mentioned SURGE, Bitty ol' pal! Are the SURGE effects from Year of the Comet allowed or were you saying that SURGE will happen over the course of the 2 year campaign? If so, I assume it must be equal "edge and flaw" type...no "Hey, I rolled a 6 for advantageous SURGEs and a 1 for detrimental SURGEs. Cool."

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 24 2003, 01:33 PM

SURGE is not allowed during character creation...i was implying that it might occur during the campaign....

We had a scenario in VS that provided for characters to undergo SURGE effects, and yes, it was random - we modified the tables somewhat. The character would make the Essence roll, and for every success, they would receive one random positive and one random negative effect. we did not use the point system...however, with a few exceptions, most of the effects (remember we modified the tables by taking some entries out) were only worth 1 or 2 points, and so they pretty much balanced themselves out...we had also added some of the Edges/Flaws into the SURGE table, such as Night Vision.

my point is that it is something that comes through during game play, on a rare basis, like finding a delta clinic. who knows when a character is going to end up getting wonked on the head and ends up waking up with amnesia - or a photographic memory (or both!).

Posted by: Mark Somers Sep 25 2003, 05:44 AM

As a tactical measure I'd suggest it's best to try - or be seen to be trying, at least - to allow as many of the rule variants as possible, since this is a vehicle to push SR stuff in much more ways than VS was. If used properly and in the correct spirit then the edges and flaws allow so much more character 'life' than the base rules.

It'd be worthwhile at the very least to see how hard it would be to zip through the list and checklist the available edges and flaws, and impose a limit - say no more than 5 points of edges or flaws possibly - to keep things playable. If you allow the point buy system - which I think is more elegant than the priority method - then edges and flaws don't need to balance anyway.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 25 2003, 04:21 PM

The following flaws would probably be inappropriate because of logistics (GMs not being able to exploit them properly, or the flaws not being sufficiently easy to organize or for balance reasons):

Incompetence
Allergy
Bio-Rejection
Borrowed Time
Amnesia
Flashbacks
Compulsive
Phobia
Sea Legs
Sea Madness
Vindictive
Total Pacifist
Dependant
Dark Secret
Day Job
Distinctive Style
Extra Enemy
Liar
Scorched
Cranial Bomb
Hunted
Mysterious Cyberware

Out of 59 flaws (counting Matrix Addiction) you have 22 which you couldn't really use. How special would characters be when they're picking from the same 37 flaws for everyone? Won't you run into the same character flaws over and over and over?

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 25 2003, 05:35 PM

OH MY GOD!!! Someone gets it!!!

seriously, yes, this was one of the primary reasons...i mean, really, if you aren't going to be able to use half of something, why confuse the issue by adding the other half?? I will actually post all the edges/flaws that i have a problem with...next post

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 25 2003, 05:43 PM

EDGES/FLAWS that present a problem, based on experience through the VS system and in discussion with other GMs, online games, MUDs, etc...this is just a sampling and not an all inclusive listing...

Aptitude/Incompetence - This is one of the problem ones...even though it says "It is strongly recommended that the gamemaster consider carefully before allowing any player character to take an Aptitude in any Combat, Magical, or Computer skill, as these can easily disrupt the balance of a game." and we specified that on the website, I was constantly seeing characters with an Aptitude: Sorcery Edge. Aptitude should only be taken once (you can take Incompetent as often as desired, but see further). Remember that this is Edges and Flaws. Having a hermetic mage take an Incompentence in Computer/Decking is hardly a flaw, nor is an Incompetence in ANY knowledge skill or language a Flaw. These must be for ACTIVE skills, and must be somewhat relevant to the character. A mage is rarely, if ever, asked to deck, so Computer should not be used as an Incompetence Flaw. However, a mage is often asked to use Stealth - should this be available as a Flaw? What about the mage that just sustains or locks down a Stealth spell to counteract his Flaw?? it is no longer a Flaw at this point. About the only thing i can think of for a Flaw for a mage would be a Combat skill. For the Edge, there's not much choice left except for Physical, Social, or B/R skills... I'd just soon outlaw this combo.

Home Ground - As it states, gamemasters should approve all Home Grounds...It is something I don't want to mess with. Too hard to administrate.

Allergy - BOY, is this one munchkined!!! I don't know how many street samurai i've seen with an allergy to orichalcum!!!

Blind - As mentioned, this does not affect someone from rigging or decking if they only have nerve damage, not brain damage. therefore, i've seen one or two people that take this flaw and then mount a microcamcorder or two on themselves and have them wired into their brains with a head deck...so they can pay some cheap essence costs to get rid of the flaw, and actually have vision with add-on capabilities such as 360 vision, thermo, peek around corners (just take the camera and hold it around a corner), or other such stuff...

Borrowed Time - GMs are reluctant to kill characters sometimes, because they're afraid that the players will not like them or the game they ran...therefore, players who know this will take this flaw. Also, the GM is supposed to roll 3D6 to determine how many months the character has to live. You're going to follow what the player writes down? what would be needed is something like roll 1D6 for each scenario played - if a 1 is rolled, the character dies at the end of the scenario, but that of course violates the "home rule" goal...

Deaf - see Blind

Paraplegic - need i go into this? Fine for a home game, where the GM can plan for stuff, but we can't remember to write in stuff for a wheelie guy all to time

Quadriplegic - See above - the whole point is to play as a team...this would be very hard to work, at least from a campaign standpoint, and does not engender team play.

Amnesia - Here is another one...how can you expect a new GM every time to control your character with total amnesia??

Combat Monster - a lot of players take this flaw, along with Vindictive. We are trying to engender an atmosphere for the "perfect shadowrun" - no one knows that you were even there or that you took anything until you are long gone. it is hard to do that if one or two people on your team feel the need to kill everyone they come across. this becomes, in the mind of these players, a "license to kill". Gee, Mr. GM, i'm a combat monster, i just HAVE to attack those guards - i'm forced to do it by my Flaw!

Common Sense - Actually, this should be a REQUIRED feature of every character!

Compulsive - Since it is a variable value, the player really ends up deciding...of course they are going to make it a -3 or more!

Flashbacks - Triggers have to be determined at character creation, in concert with a GM. for home use, this is fine, but having a different GM for each scenario makes this difficult, and, like the Hunted Flaw, something that has to be reviewed and worked into a scenario that is only 3.5 hours long...it just won't get used enough to warrant the -4 points.

Phobia - As with Allergy, this is abused quite easily. it is also another Flaw that the GM must try to work into a scenario such as Flashbacks and Hunted.

Sea Legs - I've seen this one abused as well. The player just buys a boat and has it docked somewhere in Seattle - It could even be on a lake, it doesn't specify the ocean, only water. then, every night, the character just sleeps on his boat - it may NEVER leave the dock, and technically, this satisfies the Flaw's requirement of "being on the water".

Sea Madness - even though it says this Flaw should only be taken by characters that will spend time on the water, it is sometimes taken. Oh, but my character USED to be a pirate, it's in my background, and so I have this Flaw...

Total Pacifist - So as to expose the characters to many types of missions, and to satiate the bloodlust of some of the players, we end up having wetwork missions from time to time. Characters with this Flaw would have a hard time rationalizing why they were chosen for such a mission, and may even refuse - now that player has nothing to do for 4 hours...

Vindictive - the "license to kill" Flaw...But Mr. GM, he looked at me funny, now i have to kill him! My Klingon honor demands it!!!

Connected - too broad and open to interpretation. With a home GM, this could be worked out...with a campaign, the player could choose the one type of merchandise to be "electronics" or "weapons"...too broad.

Dark Secret - Supposed to occur every two or three gaming sessions...how many sessions has it been? are you the lucky GM that now has to work this into the 4 hour scenario? Oh and don't forget the other players that are Hunted, have Flashbacks, or Phobias!!

Day Job - the problem with this is that, especially for the -3 Flaw, it pretty much requires you to have a legal SIN. this is totally contrary to the setting of the campaign, where everyone is SINless, having to have thier pasts erased to escape the authorities or other forces.

Dependent - variable, too open to interpretation...the player would have to set the value. And, once again, this has to be figured into a scenario somehow, or it is not a Flaw.

Extra Enemy - enemies are determined through the storyline - not determined by the player.

Friends in High Places - Yes, there are characters out there that have the Governor of Seattle or the head of LoneStar as a Contact...

Hung Out To Dry - this is taken usually by a character that has a Charisma of 1, and doesn't want to have to do any Legwork or deal with Contacts...all they need are the other team members to buy stuff for him.

Bad Karma - This turns out to be a freebie, as some players want to make sure that their character does not earn Karma too fast so that they won't have to retire him...the problem with this concept is that we base the game on TOTAL GOOD KARMA, and not Karma Pool...

Cranial Bomb - Another freebie like Borrowed Time...the player is betting on the fact that the GM won't just arbitrarily want to kill a character...This is a Flaw that is supposed to be worked into the campaign history for a home campaign when the character is first created.

Hunted - This, like others, are hard to manage because the scenarios are written without knowing any thing about the characters. If you become hunted, it is through NPC interaction in the game, not something that was arbitrarily decided at character creation. The flaw is intended to give your GM ideas and adventure hooks for when things need to be done to motivate your character. We do this through the scenarios.

Mysterious Cyberware - pretty similar to many of the other Flaws which really only work in a home campaign. it is too nebulous, and you are depending on the GM that has never worked with the character/player before to come up with a mysterious piece of cyberware should it be detected..then pick replacement Flaws to make up the points. this will just eat up precious time during the short time slot...

Pirate Family - not appropriate in a standard campaign, this Flaw is for use for those campaigns that are going to move around alot, especially ship based teams...

Posted by: Blitz Sep 25 2003, 06:34 PM

Point #1. Your game, your rules. I just find it limiting and against the nature of the world Fasa created and Fan Pro inherited. You've disallowed the majority of the factors that make SR enjoyable to me. I prefer characters with depth and originality and both the points system as well as the introduction to edges and flaws to be one of the main reasons I enjoy spending weeks creating characters vs. the 1 hour roll 'em up character gens of other games. No harm though...I don't like your restrictions so I will not participate. Simple as that. I get plenty of play to satisfy my addiction.

Point#2. I HATE HATE HATE people who find things they dislike about a gaming system and then impose dozens of house rules to correct what they see as flaws. I was involved in two such games...we ended up calling those games Jason Run and Shadow Russ. If you are running your game you can make your rules, but since this is a FanPro sponsored game, you might want to be careful about changing or excluding cannon material.

That brings me to my final point. (warning..rant impending)

Point#3. As an official spokesperson of FanPro by running this official gaming program, you should be more careful before asserting your house rules on the system. You have your right to opinions on the edges and flaws offered in the book, but to take it to this forum is not very business-savvy. You are, in effect, stating to anyone reading that the Shadowrun Companion is a bad book to purchase and tends to throw games into the abhorred "munchkin" category.

Wise up, munchkin's are munchkins regardless of what game or what books you are playing with. You cannot and should not punish good gamers because of fear over bad gamers. SR is one of the games I feel that is very well balanced in it's rules and I, as a GM (unofficially AND officially) always honor any ruling that can be cited in a current 3rd edition source book. ANY SOURCE BOOK.

By making these limitations, you are in essence stating that they are poorly written to allow bad gaming. If you had simply stated that you only want to use 3 main books to keep it simple for newbies, then fine. That I can understand. For you to allow all 3rd ed. books but the SR Companion because it's too munchkiny or difficult to GM, is to put a very negative spin on a book that I think adds wonderful dimension to the game and which, Im sure, FanPro would LIKE to sell to their customers, both new and old.

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 25 2003, 07:38 PM

i'm not asserting any house rules - in fact, we're trying to eliminate them by sticking to the core rules...

when you get down to it, as i've stated before, the Edges/Flaws system is optional - it is not part of the core rules system.

and, i have stated that the Shadowrun Companion is a valuable book to have for the background material it provides. the beginning of the book is, however, all about optional ways to generate characters, and extra stuff you can do to make your campaign "different". I agree that the book adds to the game, but i'm sorry to concede any points that using such rules would be hard to administrate in the type of campaign we're running. we experienced these growing pains already, and debated the pros/cons of edges/flaws till we were blue in the face.

i guess we will just have to agree to disagree. i only hope that you don't impose your views about the campaign on others - let them read this forum and/or try out the campaign for themselves and let them decide...

Posted by: DigitalMage Sep 26 2003, 12:56 PM

Posted by: Adam Sep 26 2003, 01:48 PM

Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 26 2003, 02:11 PM

Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 26 2003, 02:42 PM

http://home.comcast.net/~tinkergnome/Point_Based_Character_Generation_Tally_Sheet.doc is a mockup of a sheet which could be used for the aforementioned purpose. It does nothing to address issues of munchkinized characters, but it (or something similar) would help make it easier to check characters over.

[edit]It looks horrible without the SR fonts installed (France in particular) [/edit]

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 27 2003, 04:47 AM

I'll have to agree with the comment about taking flaws without taking the points for the flaws.

If you're all fired insistant on doing the role-play thing, is it such a burden that you don't get a few edge points for being a roleplayer? Personally, I'd be vaguely insulted if someone felt the need to "pay me off" for roleplaying.

I played a paraplegic character in VS. I took no points for it. I had a blast playing the character.

Posted by: Deacon Sep 29 2003, 08:15 AM

Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 29 2003, 01:42 PM

Posted by: Mr. Man Oct 2 2003, 05:21 AM

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 2 2003, 12:35 PM

now, now...

Blitz is entitled to his opinions...he is fortunate that he has a lot of Shadowrun play opportunities and can be selective in finding the type of game he wants. that is his perrogative (sp?). Many do not have such opportunity, however, and hopefully Shadowrun Missions will be the catalyst they need to get back into the game.

As I said, I only hope that he does not "badmouth" the campaign or force his viewpoint on other potential players - each must make their own choice.

For DigitalMage, Mr.Man, and others, welcome aboard!

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 3 2003, 09:30 PM

I am looking forward to the online play. When can I submit my char for approval?

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 4 2003, 06:24 PM

Online Play:

well, i (God willing) may end up moving sometime around the first of the year, and i'm also planning on getting married...so to be honest, the first online game probably won't be until March or April time frame...

i'm currently checking out some of the options, such as OpenRPG, AO-HELL messenger chats, etc...as well as just developing a custom solution...once i get some finalists, we'll probably put up a poll to see what everyone would feel comfortable with...for instance, if i'm still working where i am now, my firewall blocks AOL/AOL Messenger, so that solution would be out...

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 5 2003, 09:10 PM

Some people have asked about where character creation guidelines would be posted.

All official information will be posted on the Shadowrun website at www.shadowrunrpg.com

I am working with Adam right now on the website - i'm finalizing the info, and Adam is getting ready to make the mods - hopefully this month.

I am also going to try to put something in Games Unplugged magazine, and post information on dumpshock and other online sources...

Posted by: Mr. Man Oct 7 2003, 04:59 AM

Posted by: toturi Oct 16 2003, 02:31 AM

OK, not bad. No SR Comp but no biggie.

Still plenty of RP opportunities... I think I'll join...

Posted by: Rouge Oct 22 2003, 09:43 PM

Moving eh? Now what are the odds of Rich moving close to me so I can bug him? Well, in either case congrats and good luck.

Not quite the subject for an opening post as I had thought, but other than the rumor that WotC dropped VS because Rich would not allow Edges and Flaws I couldn't think of anything to talk about.

Ok it's not really a rumor, just something I thought of when I read the page on what Shadowrun Missions is. Only Rich's friends and other VS players will understand the pains he went through to remove them, some even appreciate it.

Brian
aka: Rouge

"Let the Nuyen earning begin!"

PS: Why does the spell checker have to learn the word 'nuyen' ??

Posted by: Deacon Nov 1 2003, 09:31 PM

Posted by: NeO_ZeN Nov 2 2003, 03:37 AM

@bitrunner

Our group has been utilising the http://www.paltalk.com/PalTalkSite/ program for audio (and video if you have a good enough connection) and text, while using Netmeeting for its whiteboard feature for maps.

At first we had a few problems, with people talking over each other, but once we got used to it we've run 6+ hour games comfortably, with the GM 2,500 kms away.

Gotta love technology.

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 3 2003, 02:43 PM

Thanks! I'll check into it...

as for the Commandos and Shadowrun Missions:
There is some cross-pollenation there. however, SRM is a separate program - it is the campaign setting. The Commandos are the official outrider program for FanPro, so any arbitrations or signatures by a Commando will be treated as though I myself had made the action. They have the option to run SRM missions just as anyone else, and they will get credit for doing so - but if they run a SR scenario of their own making, it CAN NOT be used with SRM characters. Only scenarios which have passed through the SRM approval process and posted as SRM missions will be counted. Along the same thread, i'll mention once again that you DO NOT have to be a Commando to run SRM events. however, if you are not a Commando, then you will not receive any "bennies" for running the event other than that glowing feeling you get inside by running the game and helping the campaign and giving your players the chance to play and grow (plus anything you can weasel out of a convention staff, such as free admission to the con for running x events, etc)...

Posted by: Fortune Nov 4 2003, 12:23 AM

I just want some clarity on one question about these official Shadowrun Missions scenarios. Are these to be made available free of charge (i.e. as pdf files, or whatever) to people that cannot attend the conventions?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2003, 07:31 AM

I'll probably sign on, as I'm a Shadowrun addict, but add my name to the list of those griping about the exclusion of SRComp. Perhaps it's just psychological, but characters created with the priority system have always seemed too cookie-cutter to me; "oh, you're another character with A resources, B attributes, C skills. Go stand in line with the others." (rearrange to taste).
That and I have a long-standing personal love for the 25-point ¥650,000 total
As for uniqueness in character concept, so you make your backstory unique. That's great. That's not going to come out in a four-hour session with people you've never met. In my experience one-shot games get reduced to their most basic elements; your characters are unique because of what they are and what they can do, not who they are. So your streetsam is really a streetsam with a conscience who helps out at the homeless shelter after-hours; unless they roleplay Total Pacifist (and thus create the same problems you complain about when you forbid the flaw), they're just Kid Stealth without the cool legs, as far as anyone's concerned.
Anyway, I would whine and gripe some more, but it's not going to get changed and I'm on board anyway, so I'll be content with this much.

~J

Edit: Keep in mind when investigating alternative options for online gaming that some of us don't use Windows. While you may or may not have to support, say, OS/2, I'd certainly recommend Mac and Linux friendliness, for what my recommendations are worth.

Posted by: DigitalMage Nov 4 2003, 11:21 AM

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 4 2003, 02:07 PM

OK, a couple of answers here:

Cost: None - all scenarios will be free of charge and will be PDFs available for download. Also remember that these scenarios CAN be played at home - there are just a few changes in accounting, such as Commandos cannot claim home games for credit.

Platforms: hey - i'm a computer geek - i still have a C-64 and an Apple IIe! That's one of the reasons why AOL IM is winning right now - it is for all 3 major OSs (including cell phones!), has built in dicebot, and lots of people already know how to use it and have done online games with it...

Guidelines: i'm finishing them up now, along with guidelines for GMs and Event organizers. They will be posted to the web when i finish them and i can get with Adam to post them - he's waiting on me right now

Posted by: Fortune Nov 4 2003, 11:35 PM

Posted by: Buzzed Nov 5 2003, 08:40 PM

What I think bitrunner has been saying is that home games do not count officially for anything.

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 5 2003, 09:06 PM

not really - we're still working things out...

we hope to eventually have a player registration area - the guys over at Commando HQ were excited about doing something, but right now i'm more concerned about getting everything up and running.

we encourage to foster the belief that we're all adults here - if people are going to cheat, they'll find a way to cheat. let's just hope they never sit down to play with me, or when i look at their character and discover that they've been cheating, they'll find that the scenario has been subtly altered with a few 'lasers'...actually, you'd be surprised at the LACK of cheating that will probably occur. at least under VS, there were few actual "cheaters". most had characters that violated the rules because of miscommunications, poor gm-ing, and other things that weren't clearly spelled out...

if people want to run a SRM game at home, that's fine. the point is that only SRM characters can be used. Let's look at it from the various prospectives:

the player: plays a legal SRM character. that character can only be played in SRM games. technically, it is a legal SR character and could be played in any game, but if it is used in other than an SRM game, any karma/loot awarded cannot be imported into the SRM campaign. ie if you just want to use that character to play for "funsies" and not change anything on the character, that's fine...

the GM: the gm can run the SRM games no problem. all the players must be using a legal SRM character. you cannot then write your own scenario and run it with the SRM characters as if it were a legal scenario. if you are a Commando, you do not get credit for running this as an 'event'.

for everyone's edification, Commandos are representatives of FanPro, and receive credit for running events at gaming stores, conventions, and special events. These are public games where they are trying to increase the popularity of the game system (battletech or shadowrun). hosting a game with your four regular players isn't a promotional game - it has to be open to the public and a legitimate event.

Posted by: Fortune Nov 5 2003, 10:39 PM

My point is that, say I start playing with a group that doesn't attend conventions. We make characters according to the SRM guidelines, only pulling them out for use whenever a new SRM scenario is made available. In a few years, I then move to a more convenient locale and start to become a convention regular. Would my (2-year-experienced, but totally legal to SRM standards) character able to be played in those conventions?

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 6 2003, 05:56 PM

yep, you bet, absolutely...

Posted by: Wish Nov 6 2003, 07:10 PM

If Priority is to be in use, Sum-To-Ten should be available. The standard priority system penalizes mundane humans, and any character concept which requires breadth of ability rather than being really good at one thing. Sum-To-Ten is also easy to check, which seems to be the main argument for Priority over Build Point.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 6 2003, 07:32 PM

Sum-to-ten is also not found in any currently printed SR3 book. Which makes it an unappetizing choice at best. If we have to go with an alternate system, I'd rather see the point system put in with a required accounting sheet (like the sample I posted earlier). If you place an extra accounting requirement onto the PC, which makes it as easy for the GM to spot-check as the priority system, I don't see why it wouldn't be a suitable choice.

However, it should be clear that the burden of making sure your character is up to par is on the player.

Posted by: vebor Nov 6 2003, 09:42 PM

Edges and flaws are easy to min/max. Im currently tinkering with them in NSCRG to build the most Kill stuff street sammy I can.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Nov 7 2003, 03:15 AM

Note that while I think the point system would work fine for a campaign such as this, I agree wholeheartedly with the disallowance of edges and flaws. They are easy to min-max, and in an environment where it is hard for the GM to exploit player flaws, almost 50% of the flaws in SR3 are free points.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Nov 7 2003, 03:17 AM

Posted by: Deacon Nov 8 2003, 12:39 PM

Posted by: TimberWolf Nov 10 2003, 02:51 AM

I started Steel back when we got 400K in resources. He was a phys ad and a human. I started with a weapon focus, and a bunch of other minor crap. By the time the VS 2.0 came around, I had a permanent Middle lifestyle, two fake IDs and enough firepower to rack like mad. I also had several skills out the yin-yang. And I sucked compaerd to some of the other people.

So it's quite possible to become a rocking meta and norm. (Troll samurai with an int of 5. Weird, neh?)

Posted by: Goro Dec 17 2003, 02:49 AM

Hello,

I just read Bitrunner's post about "Mission Briefing" being played down in Orlando in January. I think that's great. The sooner "SRM" is up and running, the better. Now that there are actual scheduled SRM events coming up next month, will there be character genration guidelines posted soon?

and thanks to Bitrunner for all his work in getting this campaign going.

Posted by: Casazil Dec 17 2003, 03:53 AM

UM general guidelines are posted at the top of this post.

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 17 2003, 09:06 PM

to be more specific...

we're a little behind on the adventures, which i feel is more important right now to get us up and running...like i've said in the past, if you create a character using the basic rules, 99.9999% of the time you won't be wrong....

i'm working on SPECIFIC guidelines little by little...

i apologize once again for being behind...

Posted by: TimberWolf Dec 18 2003, 03:07 AM

You could farm out the char creation stuff to people. I'd be willing.

Posted by: Casazil Dec 18 2003, 04:00 AM

Posted by: TimberWolf Dec 23 2003, 12:01 AM

True. But what limits on gear? Or do we really want everyone bouncing around with Level 4 tactical computers at start?

Posted by: Fortune Dec 23 2003, 01:31 AM

Posted by: Diggs Jan 3 2004, 03:48 AM

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jan 5 2004, 04:31 AM

As far as I am able to tell from the Shadowrun FAQ, it means any cultured bioware of any sort is banned from character creation, whether or not it is also available in a non-cultured form.

Posted by: bitrunner Jan 5 2004, 02:45 PM

correct - if it has the word "cultured" involved, it is not allowed at character creation...this includes all neural bioware, which is cultured by default, as well as the cultured "level" of "normal" bioware...

Posted by: Diggs Jan 7 2004, 02:47 AM

Ack! Well that kinda sucks

If I recall the FAQ correctly, that is just a suggestion, and IMHO we should ignore it I was considering making a bioware based merc but that is impossible now as he would not have access to the pieces of bioware that are (again IMO) essential to that archetype.

If I might suggest for your consideration (knowing full well that you are the head honcho here and can tell me to bugger off ) that the restriction be only for those pieces of bioware that are available in a 'regular' version, and that those that are ONLY available as Cultured be allowed. This would give a bioware enhanced archetype access to the Synaptic Accelerators (or whatever the Boosted Reflexes equivilant is called )

Just to make you feel better if you need to say no, I shan't run off and badmouth SM if this is shot down I'll most likely just move on to some other concept... Maybe I will ressurect my ShaoLin Troll

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 7 2004, 02:54 AM

He's now going to tell you to bugger off.

~J

Posted by: bitrunner Jan 7 2004, 02:37 PM

hehe, no, i'm actually NOT going to say that...

BUT...remember that we're trying to keep the campaign as simple as possible AND as balanced as possible without jumping forward with uber characters right out of the gate...

because of that, had FanPro put out the errata to say as you proposed, then we'd be doing it that way. i, however, have no control over game content - i have to deal with the cards i'm dealt, so to speak...

in order to keep it simple, it's an all or nothing option then...i opted to keep the power level of the game lower, and therefore stuck with opting for the full statement. imagine the pain in the rump it would be to say, "ok, you can have bioware that is cultured grade, but not cultured bioware like neuralware, etc." we tried that in VS towards the end, and it confused people to no end...

since, unfortunately, not everyone interprets such questionable rules the same way, it has to be cut and dry, so therefore saying "you can't have bioware with the word cultured involved" makes it much more cut and dry.

so, you can't have it at character generation, but that doesn't mean you can't have it once the game starts - you just have to find a beta or delta clinic! hehe (yes, there will be multiple opportunities during the year for that, especially during the first two years - you'll understand why soon enough)

I hope you can understand the reasoning behind the decision...hey, it could be worse! there were many people that thought we should only allow the core rule book for beginning characters, and only allow access to M&M, CC, and other books once the game had started!! Yes, that would have put many people on an even footing, but i wanted to allow for a little more variety with the characters, and one of the side functions of the campaign *IS* to promote the sale of product, so that means "allow more books"...

now bugger off!!

Posted by: Diggs Jan 8 2004, 01:25 AM

Nah... I totaly understand the reasoning, but you can't fault a guy for trying


Mebbe I'll give my merc a try anyhow and hope for a quick trip to the beta clinic in game sometime

Posted by: TimberWolf Jan 10 2004, 11:31 PM

You could always go the cyberware route, then get the bioware when it hits the street. But that might be considered power gaming....

Posted by: bitrunner Jan 12 2004, 02:16 PM

power gaming? not at all...that's actually smart gaming - you would merely be upgrading your equipment to better yourself...

Posted by: Toecutter Jan 13 2004, 07:14 AM

Rich,

Any word on when some form of a Character Generation PDF will be available? Some players and I were talking about this Saturday night after I ran the VS finale for them (Mistaken Identity/Brass Bottle/X), and we'd like to get our ducks in a row before next month.

Thanks.

R. Timm

Posted by: bitrunner Jan 20 2004, 10:17 PM

Clarification: Shamans & Totems

Players that wish to play shaman characters can choose any of the totems listed in the core rule book (pg 163-166) or in Magic In The Shadows (pg 152-163).

You CANNOT play an insect shaman, toxic shaman, or other type of shamanic totem - all of these are listed in the chapter called Magical Threats, which describes NON player characters for use by the GM (that's me and the writers!)

Note that while you can play a shaman of The Adversary, this does NOT automatically make you a toxic shaman, you will simply get the advantages/disadvantages (see pg 160)...

There are more than enough totems to create variety in the campaign. I have already seen a player with a Creator shaman...

Character Creation PDF

Maybe i'm just lazy...i don't know...i know it's hard for most of you to believe, but really, there's not a lot to the character creation system...i'm still working on a PDF, but it is 75% more about the campaign and what Shadowrun is all about...

it really is as simple as following the rules in the core book, sticking to the Avail 8 / Rating 6 rule for gear, no game info from SRComp, no optional rules. just use uncommon sense! if you think it's something that would be questionable or disallowed, then don't do it! I HIGHLY recommend using the infamous character generator, as it keeps you honest with things like skill level costs based on attributes, etc...

those that want to squeeze every little bit out of their new character can certainly come here to read the forums and get answers to FAQ or post a new question...if you have a specific question, or want to have me (or another SR Commando) look over your character, then feel free to email it to me! i don't bite! (well, i do, but it's only 4L)

Posted by: ramax Jan 29 2004, 03:05 PM

I apologize if this has already been answered. In an earlier post, it was stated that we could use materials from MitS. I was wondering if this included the new paths, especially the Magician's Way Adept path and Voodoo (I'm not sure if these are considered optional )? Thanks.

Posted by: Wakari Feb 5 2004, 11:41 PM

I have a few questions.

Are we using the Cyberware and Bioware damage rules? And if so, could you please include the requirements for charting your cyberware and bioware in the PDF you have for character creation so judges can work quickly using them? The rules for people who don't know makes it best if you have bioware or cyberware, but not as useful to have both as you have a better chance to have something damaged.

Are beginning magic characters allowed to start the game with Gaesa? The Adepts can use Gaesa normally to get more power per magic point (I belive the powers cost 75% as much).

So if I created an adept with 8 power points of adept powers for my 6 magic rating, and later in play lose a magic point. Can I take another gaesa on that power point to avoid losing powers?

Can I apply that double gaesa at character creation to have cyberware in my adept at game start (not much; mostly a smartlink and datajack).

TIA

Wakari

Posted by: bitrunner Feb 6 2004, 08:46 PM

OK let's see....

1. Cyberware/Bioware damage rules:
Yes, these rules are used. However, I will say that in order to keep game play as streamlined as possible, I would encourage GMs to only worry about such things if the character takes a Deadly physical wound. Otherwise it will slow down the game too much.

2. Beginning magic characters and Geasa:
Yes, geasa are allowed, but please use some common sense...if I see everyone taking the "Fasting" geasa, I'm going to be upset... I have a perfect passage from another game system that applies to this: "If it doesn't inconvenience the character, it's not a disadvantage" (HERO system). Since geasa are conditions that the adept must follow to use a power, then I would like to think that there is at least a 25% chance that you will not be able to fulfill that geas, and therefore not use the power. It is meant to be a sacrifice in order to take a shorter path to power.

3. Double geasa:
I would think YES. But remember that at creation, you are taking a geas on the POWER - when you loose the magic point, you take the geas on the MAGIC POINT. therefore, BOTH geasa must be satisfied to use the power, thus making it harder (50% of the time you should fail, based on my thoughts above!)
If you have another power covered by the same point of magic, remember that this power effectively has a geas on it as well!
I would recommend not loosing magic points!!!

4. Double geasa at creation:
NO. Suck it up and loose the essence...

5. Magician's Way (Physical Mages)
Yep...play them to your heart's desire....make sure that you read the section carefully and abide by the restrictions!! I would PREFER (note: not a campaign rule, just my thoughts on the game universe) that these characters never exceed a 50-50 split. IE, at start, the character should have no more than 3 points of magic. The character is first and foremost an adept, and should have the bulk of his points in powers, not spells....your mileage may vary...

6. Voodoo
*sigh* yes, you can play voodoo....i recommend that you never play at my table however...i hate voodoo...why can't you pick one of the normal 50 or so totems and play a regular shaman?? jeesh!

For anyone that missed it, i posted a FAQ over in the General Questions area...

Posted by: Regnad Kcin Feb 11 2004, 02:18 AM

I want to build a custom weapon using the Firearm Accessories rules in the Cannon Companion. Can I do that, and if so, what are the limitations. If not,

-Regnad Kcin

Posted by: Regnad Kcin Feb 11 2004, 08:31 PM

Will there be a single PDF document with the current CCG rules? My con organizers are just about insisting on it. It will really help to promote the campaign if we have one. At this point, I don't care it it will change every month, I need something to give players. (I'm expecting a number of types.)

Thanks.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Feb 13 2004, 03:04 AM

Posted by: Adam Feb 13 2004, 04:27 AM

FYI, Bitrunner is out of the country and will be for a couple weeks; I don't think he'll have time to visit the forums until after he returns.

Posted by: TimberWolf Feb 16 2004, 04:20 AM

I know he's out of town, but I will still post this here.

I need a website for char creation rules and for module blurbs. Please?

Posted by: Mark Somers Feb 16 2004, 01:33 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Mar 2 2004, 05:40 PM

Mark has the first part correct - for every point of magic that you loose and wish to compensate for, you must take a separate geas. if you loose three points of magic AT THE SAME TIME then you must take 3 separate geasa, and breaking any ONE of them means ALL 3 MAGIC POINTS are not usable...

during character creation, I'll assume that if you are getting some cyber/bioware implanted, that you would do so in "chunks" of one magic point each, rather than all at the same time, thus incurring the above penalty. this way, you only loose one point of magic for each "chunk" of stuff you got under the knife, and take one geas to offset it. the bigger stuff (for instance, wired reflexes 2) that requires more than one point of essence is going to fall into the above penalty.

is that clear enough??

As for creating your own geasa, you may certainly do so, but it must be approved by a Shadowrun Commando or myself. We'll make sure the geas is fitting and balanced for the campaign and your character.

Posted by: toturi Mar 3 2004, 12:08 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Mar 3 2004, 12:19 AM

For a spellslinger, breaking one geas means that all geasa are broken. For an Adept, breaking one geas doesn't affect other geasa. IIRC, that is.

~J

Posted by: bit_buckethead Mar 6 2004, 06:56 PM

Does the device rating of 6 limitation apply to the MPCP rating of decks?

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 7 2004, 06:09 AM

I don't mind the break one/lose all rules. I can actually see enjoying a situation like that if it comes up - I might be odd, but roleplaying bad luck for me can be just as enjoyable as roleplaying good fortune.

I just wanted to know if I could play a burned-out mage type who's propping up his missing three magic points with geasa.




-karma

Posted by: The White Dwarf Mar 8 2004, 12:58 PM

Will magicians be allowed to use spell points to initiate? To get an ally spirit?

Will aspected conjurors be allowed to do either of those?

If not, can they or other magicians sell back Spell Points for nuyen?

Will characters be allowed to choose to have a SIN?

Will characters who choose to have SINs be allowed to purchase permits tied to that SIN, in order to make it easier to aquire those items which are classed as illegal except with permit?

If they choose to do so, will proper mechanics be in place for the SINless to maintain some benefit in terms of anonymity to counter balance the above advantage?

Is there a limit to the number of contacts you would like each player to have at character creation? To the type of contacts they can have?

Will you be allowing characters to apply the 'used vehicle' quality factor on p.77 of R3 during character creation? (always fun to start off with a beater /grin)

Will any sort of miniatures be used when playing by default, or is it the perrogative of the specific GM in question?

Posted by: bitrunner Mar 8 2004, 03:13 PM

WOW! lots of new questions...i see i'll have to augment the FAQ already!

1. Device Rating limit of 6 on the MPCP?
yes, sorry...but hey, that still gives you a middle of the road deck, which is pretty good basic deck for a starting character...try working for that Excalibur!!

2. mages using spell points to initiate or for ally spirits?
NO. you can only initiate through earned karma. same for buying ally spirits. note that for an ally spirit, you need to have it approved/witnessed by a FanPro Commando or myself.

3. can aspected conjurors do the same?
NO.

4. Sell back points for nuyen?
NO.

5. can you start with a SIN?
NO. All characters are assumed to have had their backgrounds erased - you are shadowrunners. you can certainly say that your character has a regular job during the day, such as a pizza delivery guy, etc, HOWEVER you get no game benefit from it - you do not make enough money to support your shadowrunning (maybe enough to maintain your lifestyle while not doing anything else) or have special access to anything except maybe a uniform and magnetic sign for your car.

if you want to have a SIN or a permit, then you must purchase a counterfeit credstick. if you want to rationalize things, you can say that part of the money you pay for a fake credstick goes into bribes to Joe, the manager at the local pizza place, to tell anyone that checks on you that you work for him.

as an aside, i had one player get arrested during the first adventure, Mission Briefing. His character now has a criminal SIN!!!

6. contacts: you are limited by the amount of money you can spend. HOWEVER, i would hope that you remember that other people are at the table and they should be able to use their contacts as well. if you have 30 contacts, and everyone else only has 2 or 3, then be courteous and only use the best 2 or 3 that you have, so that you don't delay game play trying all 30 contacts (yes, i've seen this happen). i believe that i have guidelines elsewhere about level 2 and 3 contacts. note that Commandos (or myself) need to approve all level 3 contacts, and these contacts should be fully generated characters. Level 2 contacts should have at least a short paragraph describing your relationship, brief physical description, and a short description of what they do or how they can help you. primary stats or special skills should be delineated ie: fixer, Charisma 6, Negotiation 8

7. i'll have to look that up - if it is an optional rule, then no. otherwise, if you want to start with a "beater", then it should have some chance of breaking down, not starting, or whatever else makes the vehicle less dependable in game play.

we don't use "used cyberware" though, so i'm guessing probably not....

8. miniatures: this depends on the adventure and the GM. i highly recommend the use of various Hero Clix figures - i use them myself when the situation warrants. the use of pennies, jelly beans, or other objects are just as valid...

Posted by: bitrunner Mar 8 2004, 03:16 PM

oh, and Crystal Caste has a nice set of "shadowrunner" figures as well, all prepainted...

and of course, for official, paint yourself, traditional miniatures, check out Iron Wind Metals - they took over the Ral Partha stuff i believe...

Posted by: The White Dwarf Mar 8 2004, 11:37 PM

Thanks for the reply. However, this really means aspected Conjurors get reamed. They start with 35 points like other aspected mages, only cant really use them on much. Hermetics could get some eles, I suppose; but Shamans basically get to bond 35 points of foci... yay.

Im not trying to say its fair one way or the other, just that under the given rules-set this is one character idea that wont see much play because of the limited avenue to use its points in. Least imo. Might be something to think about addressing in some fashion.

Ill probably come up with some more questions later, thanks for the prompt reply so far.

Posted by: bit_buckethead Mar 10 2004, 04:39 AM

Posted by: bitrunner Mar 10 2004, 02:23 PM

i sit corrected....

since you can play any of the characters from the basic rule book, you CAN play the combat decker, complete with deck of MPCP 7...

there are 2 reasons why the sample character has this deck:

1) They made a mistake and still haven't caught it
2) They considered that the MPCP is actually a calculated statistic, and not technically a Device Rating or Availability.

The Availability of the deck in question is only 6, so that is consistent with the rules.

As for the Device Rating limit of 6, you could look at it as the fact that the MPCP is really a derived value from the maximum allowed of the four persona programs and their ratings can achieve. Following this logic, you could say that a deck with an MPCP of 8 has an average "device rating" for its persona programs of 6 for each. Yes, you can increase one to 7 or 8, but you would have to decrease some of the others by the same amount to equal 24...

however, you can't buy a rating 8 MPCP because then the Availability would be greater than 8.

So, short answer - for cyberdecks, use the Availability code as the limiting factor - programs should still follow the Device Rating rule (max level 6)...

how's that??

Posted by: simonw2000 Mar 29 2004, 01:01 PM

Posted by: Deacon Mar 31 2004, 09:38 AM

Posted by: trapper Mar 31 2004, 05:49 PM

Decker /rigger character creation question. I have selected a 108,000 programming suite. Is this OK for most game use or should I select specific programs. I realize that decking is to be simplified. I am too new to this game to understand some of the subtile differences in the specifics. I've been doing the role-play thing in other games for years (decades?)

Thanks

Posted by: Kagetenshi Mar 31 2004, 07:07 PM

Posted by: Diggs Apr 3 2004, 06:48 AM

I used to run a Troll PhysAd in my home game. As he was a ShaoLin monk, nearly all of his abilities were tied into his prayer beads.

Posted by: lspahn72 Apr 7 2004, 05:48 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Apr 7 2004, 08:09 PM

That's one possibility. The other possibility is to read the books obsessively until you know just where to look for just about any rule.

~J

Posted by: TinkerGnome Apr 8 2004, 01:41 PM

My wife surprised the hell out of me by asking if I wanted to go to GenCon the other day (she's got some non-gamer stuff she wants to do in Indy). Which lead me to wondering what I should do... and of course SRM is at the top of the list. I'm going to sit down and create a character in a few days and the thought of using skillwires occured to me.

A lot of this I already know the answers to per the base rules, but I really want explicit confirmation before showing up with a character that's going to get pounded for things I didn't know the campaign was doing. I also have some generic rules questions about cyberware upgrades. Here are some questions I had:

1. Are any skills not allowed as chipped? (ie, is Negotations chipable)
2. Is the CED available (up to rating 3 as per the new errata)?
3. Provided it's available, what skills can be used with the task pool? (Social? Technical? Physical?)
4. Are skillsoft program options allowed (following normal rules)?
5. If I want to upgrade the grade of cyberware, what is the cost? Do I sell the old cyber at 25% and then buy the new cyber outright?
6. If I want to upgrade something with ratings, what is the cost? Let's say CyberX with ratings 1-6 costs 1000 per point. I have it rating 4 (4000 ) and want to upgrade to rating 5 (5000 ) is the cost 1000 (the difference in costs) or 4000 (old cyber sold for 1000 new cyber bought for 5000 )?

Posted by: bitrunner Apr 9 2004, 01:15 PM

OK, i probably shouldn't do this because i don't have the books in front of me, but here's my gut reaction and what i recall...

Posted by: TinkerGnome Apr 9 2004, 02:50 PM

Okay, that got most of it, except for two followup questions and a comment.

Posted by: bitrunner Apr 12 2004, 05:48 PM

i'll research the other stuff...

as for skillwires...no, you have to sell back the original skillwires and buy a whole new set...

Posted by: TinkerGnome Apr 12 2004, 05:55 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Apr 13 2004, 12:24 PM

yes, i was talking about the ratings of the skillwires...

as you said (and found the reference in the book!) if you are just doing an MP capacity upgrade, you just pay the difference. this is like adding memory to a computer...

Posted by: Deacon Apr 15 2004, 01:36 AM

Posted by: TinkerGnome Apr 15 2004, 02:08 AM

CEDs are limited at rating 3 by the new errata so it's not as bad as it used to be.

Posted by: bitrunner Apr 15 2004, 12:20 PM

Tinker is absolutely correct! I cried for joy when i read over the M&M errata a month or so ago when it came out...

always make sure you have the new errata. heck, my core rules was so old (original printing) that i went out and bought a new copy so that i'd have less errata to worry about - the old book was getting kind of worn and beaten anyways...

for M&M, i'd seriously suggest that everyone just go and buy a new one - there were significant changes throughout...

Posted by: Abstruse Apr 28 2004, 02:41 PM

I'm creating a Melee/Gun Adept for Missions and had some questions.

You said that geas are allowed to reduce power point costs per MitS rules, but stated something like it actually has to be a disadvantage. What about the "fetish" geas (must be in contact with an item that is either a focus or has three distinct qualities)? If so, what constitutes a "quality"? Does "Browning Ultra-Power Pistol" count as one quality or two? IE Pistol that is a Browning Ultra-Power of just all one thing. How specific do I need to be? A (1)silver (2)pendant on a (3)silver chain? Or do I need to be more specific in the specific type?

Also, what about pistol customizations? Not designs, as those would be a cast-iron bitch to regulate, but stuff like etching, customized handles/finishes, etc? (This again falls under the trying to get my specific gun to be my geas).

I swear I'm not being too munchie, half of these I'm mostly curious about. I was planning on going the typical-for-me silver Gothic cross on a silver chain route...

Oh, one thing I've never figured out, can you use the same item for multiple geas, or do they have to be different items? Or do you have to use different geas on different powers? IE Can I use SGCoaSC for Imp. Ref and Imp. Ability: Pistols, or do I need seperate items, or do I need entirely different geas?

The Abstruse One

Posted by: The White Dwarf Apr 28 2004, 07:15 PM

Well, obviously Im not bitrunner so I cant answer for sure pertaining to SR missions. However, normally the silver pendant on a chain is specific enough, especially if you specify exactly what it is (gothic cross etc). And normally you can tie as many powers as you want to it; its just if you lose it youre out them all then. What you cant do is stack 2 geasea on one power unless its a voluntarily geased power, and you suffer magic loss and have to gease it again. Least thats how I read everything.

Id still like to see a flat yes or no to which categories of skills can be chipped. The rules state "any active skill" if Im not mistaken, but a few threads in the past have brought up some points about that.

Also, Id like to see a clarification on .... *drumroll* ... armor stacking. Some people allow only 2 pieces of worn armor, some allow 2 plus form fitting, and some allow as many as you want (with the whole obviouse thing playing into it). Now I dont expect an answer to what it should be, thats a whole different thing, only to how it will be handled in SR missions. I just dont want to show up under or over dressed.

Posted by: The White Dwarf Apr 29 2004, 10:03 AM

Random other questions:

What, exactly, has to be dwarf/troll modified? Just worn items like armor, clothing and weapons? Obviously vehciles. What about radios? Computers? Lifestyles? Probably need some clarification here to make all the dwarf and troll resource expeditures roughly equal across everyone.

What are the changes to the given figures for ruethenium material needed for dwarfs/trolls? Id imagine its something like x.5 or .75 for dwarf and x2 for troll? The only figures I saw listed were for humans. Also, do orks and elves have different values here?

Is there any method to include the M&M surgical options during char-gen for SR Missions? Normally the GM can opt to include them as edges and flaws, but obviously that wont work here. But it might be something that could have a nuyen value attached to it or something. If not, is there a way to get them later? Note that not all of them pertain to implanted ware, tho most do.

Did anyone bring up gene-tech? As in, can we use it? And will it be full-price only, or will the reduced cost for child alteration or whatever be an option if the background supports it? Also what, if any, stacking issues will be addressed such as calcitonin + bonelacing (sorta seems like it would overlap, but rules say nothing of the sort; across them all just as written or anything different?)?

Posted by: Abstruse Apr 29 2004, 01:35 PM

Genetech = Beta clinic needed = no-no, stated previously I believe.

If we're going straight core rules, anything that needs to be worn or handled by a troll needs to be modified. A troll would have lots of trouble sticking his finger into the trigger guard of a normal Preditor. I may be wrong on this one though...

The Abstruse One

Posted by: TinkerGnome Apr 29 2004, 01:39 PM

The big question, for me at least, is cyberware. Do you have to spend more for a dwarf sized cyberleg? How about a troll sized datajack?

Posted by: bitrunner May 5 2004, 02:14 PM

ok, here are a couple of answers...

Armor: You can stack as many layers as you wish....HOWEVER, only the two highest layers count for protection, and ALL layers count towards Quickness reduction, if any...personally, i'd get some magic undies (formfit body armor) and then a suit of secure clothing over the top for day-to-day ops - special ops of course warrant dragging out the armor.

Trolls/Dwarves: if something affects the whole body or specific physical characteristic, then you have to pay the penalty for the modification. This DOES NOT include cyberware or bioware. Other equipment, such as a medkit, may just have bandages with larger tabs for trolls to open easier, etc, while the bandage itself is still the same size. basically, this "size" difference is supposed to be representative of having a handicap. Imagine a dwarf/troll with fingertips that are twice as thick as yours trying to type on a keyboard. Paying the extra for a lifestyle assumes the higher consumption rate of a troll, as well having all the bathroom fixtures have larger handles and better structural support for furniture.

Genetech: Abstruse is correct...genetech requires beta clinic, so no.

Ruthenium Polymer Suits: once you calculate the cost for a normal jacket, use the standard multipliers for dwarf/troll.

Chipped Skills: pg 295 now says "Active Skills such as Combat, Physical, Technical, or Vehicle skills" - therefore it no longer includes Social skills. Keep in mind that you can still get a Knowsoft which may compliment a relevant Social skill, such as Knowledge: Gang Identification or Proper Japanese Tea Ceremony Etiquette.

Talismans and Geasa: White Dwarf already answered correctly as far as stacking, etc...in your pistol example however, i would rate the Browning Ultra Power as the object. if it had inlaid pearl handgrips and a chrome finish with a special inscription or rune on it, those would count as two features, and you would need one more, maybe if it were hand stamped by the gun's designer or something, making it rare or limited edition. In other words, you buy the stock gun, and then modify it with three distinct features to make it unlike any other Browning Ultra Power pistol. note that this does NOT include standard options that you can purchase as well - having a silencer added is not a feature, it's an option. now, if that silencer is somehow different or unique, then yes. basically, you have to pay something 'extra' on top of the stock items.

M&M options: well, don't have my book handy, but off hand i'd say no, especially if it is under the title of OPTIONAL, which we don't use in SRM...i'll have to get back to you on it, but assume no for now to be safe...

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 5 2004, 05:00 PM

Posted by: Casazil May 5 2004, 06:02 PM

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 5 2004, 07:19 PM

Huh? The classes of Active Skills are (in order of appearance, SR3, p 85-89):

• Breakdown and Repair
• Combat
• Magical
• Physical
• Social
• Technical
• Vehicle

Posted by: bitrunner May 5 2004, 08:04 PM

then there you go...as long as you can find supporting evidence in the book, then you can use it... i merely read the one tiny section on Skillsofts in the gear section...

so, yeah, according to pg 85-89, active skills include social, but magic skills are specifically excluded...

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 5 2004, 08:08 PM

Well, my argument's intent is more educational than anything else. What the campaign director says is (obviously) law, reguardless of the letter of the rules (sometimes the spirit is so much more important).

Posted by: bitrunner May 6 2004, 01:08 PM

well...we try to keep as close to the book as possible...

this Skillsoft argument has been around since 1st Edition. As i've stated, I personally think active skillsofts should only be for combat, physical, and vehicle skills. technical, b/r, and social skills, while listed as active, really require more knowledge than action - if you're diffusing a bomb, it is the knowledge of the bomb and what wire to cut. if you're at a president's ball, you need to know how to dance, sure, but that is a physical skill (dancing) - how you address the son of the baron of monrovia is something based on knowledge.

arguments, i'm sure, could be stated the other way - i'm merely stating mine...

unfortunately, i'm not running a home campaign, and so i have to stick as close to the book as possible, and therefore until an errata or clarification is revealed, social skills may be chipped.

Posted by: Deacon May 6 2004, 07:07 PM

From my experience, skillwires require -so much- investment from a beginning character (probably the only time you'll have the cash to afford the 'wires) that fears about people chipping social skills are easily allayed -- only the dedicated Skillwires user is going to be able to exploit this to any extent. And even then, an enterprising GM can dink with him there...

"Oh, your chip's out of date, etiquette and protocol amongst the Yakuza has changed. Time to blow another 10,800 ."

Posted by: simonw2000 May 19 2004, 09:28 PM

Is it possible to take Shadowland as a contact?

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 19 2004, 09:59 PM

Yep. It counts as a Level 2 contact, though I personally ignore that and give it levels. Target: Matrix, IIRC.

~J

Posted by: simonw2000 May 27 2004, 08:55 AM

Are you allowed to take Dragon for a totem?

Posted by: Cain May 27 2004, 09:18 AM

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 27 2004, 07:55 PM

Hate to jump in here, but the Dragon totem is in neither MITS or the SR3 core rulebook. Dragon appears in Year of the Comet, a book not on the SRM book list, as far as I know (though it might be).

Wyrm appears in MITS, though, so should be fair game.

Posted by: Cain May 28 2004, 03:49 AM

I'll have to double-check YOTC, but there is another part of the FAQ that indirectly answers his question:

Posted by: bitrunner May 28 2004, 11:30 PM

i probably shouldn't be answering this without consulting the books, namely YOTC, but i'll do so anyways...

the rules were made general to allow for new totems that become developed and appear in new product. Thus, if a new Porpoise totem were developed, you could feel free to play it without worrying.

Dragon, however, is a little different. like i said, i'll have to see YOTC to make the final official ruling. if the totem was something that was constructed special for NPCs in the book, is marked Optional, or has something otherwise "special" about it, then it won't be allowed. If it is basically the same as any other "normal" totem, then there shouldn't be a problem. it certainly isn't going to give you any game benefits like having Lofwyr as a contact or thinking that you're going to get any slack from a dragon during a business dealing...

Cain is correct in the latter part of his posting, about "flavor" - you may certainly follow those ideas...however, don't confuse Magic Tradition with Totem...a Tradition is merely how the Totem is "worshipped"...You could be walking with Whale in a Salish tribe and your trappings and ceremonies would be entirely different from a Kahuna that follows Whale. The totem, Whale, is the same, and both receive the stated benefits for that totem, but each follows a different Tradition, which may affect them differently...the Traditions are mostly to assist in roleplaying the shaman more effectively...

Posted by: TinkerGnome May 29 2004, 02:33 AM

There is nothing inherently powerful or unbalancing about Dragon as far as I can see. It gives dice 2 dice for two spell categories and mountain spirits and has some stiff disadvantages.

All in all, I really do like the totem, and was just pointing out that the passage quoted didn't specificly provide for the use of books which aren't otherwise used

Posted by: bitrunner Jun 18 2004, 06:59 PM

Just so you all know...

I found out that I was mistaken on a certain item:

Trolls/Dwarves do NOT pay anything extra for custom sized bio/cyberware.

the relevant posting has been edited/corrected as well...

If you paid extra for cyberware because you are a Troll, you can, of course, take back the difference between the book price and the adjusted price, then divide as normal for starting nuyen...

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 31 2004, 09:54 PM

Are there any rules in SRM forbidding a weapon foci to be purchased as a cyber-spur?

I would ask about dikote but I value my life.


-karma

Posted by: bitrunner Aug 1 2004, 07:15 PM

no rules against that...

...and thank you for not bringing up dikoting a weapon focus...

so yes, you can have a cyberspur as a weapon focus - it is considered to be "deactivated" when sheathed...and you have to have the karma to bind it, of course...

Posted by: Johnson Aug 2 2004, 11:43 AM

Well I have character creation for a team of runner that are starting the SRM on saturday, is there any advise that anyone can give.?

Posted by: Dark father Aug 2 2004, 01:18 PM

My suggestion would be to make a balanced team. To experiment SRM at it's best, a decker and a mage/shaman would be good. For the other players, I would suggest them to pick a gunner/street sam or a face.

Posted by: Johnson Aug 2 2004, 03:10 PM

Well the ideas I have from the runners are as follows.

Ork Samurai - Specilization close quarter combat.
Human Street Mage - Aspected to Minipulation.
Troll Merc - Rebel without a clue. Mr Disorientated.
Female Elf Face - Specialization in jgetting her way no matter what.

There are others but this is what is being put forward to me.

Decker and Riggers are to complex for the new group of players. they ar really green

Posted by: bitrunner Aug 2 2004, 04:40 PM

my concern is that you don't seem to have any technical support in that team....

if you can get someone to play a dwarf technician, he can branch out into either decking or rigging (or both!) later on - that way you have someone that can handle maglocks, sensors, cameras, etc...even if they just have a basic computer skill, they will be able to "turtle" a system to get files if you need them, etc...

also, don't fall into that trap of a Troll being stupid...he may have a low Intelligence - that just means that he doesn't notice things happening around him as much...i'm concerned that your group is very combat heavy. also, if anyone is going to be close combat, i'd go with the Troll. but, if there is one thing i've learned : "if you're in melee combat, you've already done something wrong"...
if you get into a fight, 4 times out of 5, you brought a knife to a gunfight, and we all know what that makes you...that's right, a corpse full of buckshot lying outside of sean connery's chicago apartment (from the Untouchables, for those that miss the reference)

Posted by: Johnson Aug 3 2004, 09:23 AM

No doubt I will convince some to take the Role of the Technician. I have on player who has played before but he tends to Comabt Junkies. I will coax him in to playing a Technical Minded person.

The Troll is not dumb. Just his Merc priorities have been messed with, as he has been in prison under mind minipulation for a crime that he was accused for. Hence the Rebel without a clue.
The disoreinted part is the correctional affect that has been done through the minipulation and as so to say fights the Deamon within, what he can or can't do.

The team look quit handy with thier equipment. But I feel with the discussions I have had with the and thier character concepts. They rather shoot thier way out.
This posses a problem with the SRM 1.

I know the Face will coupe but, I have a concern with the Troll Merc and the Street Sam.

I may have to play down some of the encounters though.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 3 2004, 07:14 PM

Posted by: Casazil Aug 4 2004, 07:05 PM

Ok I have a question. Yes it has been answered once I guess I am looking for a clearer answer.

The question: Can one make a starting character that is of a magical nature and have said character already been through 1 or more levels of initiation?

The answer: No.

Next question: Why not? (please keep reading before anyone decides to go off on a rant or what ever.)

I have looked and while I personally have yet to find in any rule book where it says you can't I would be open to someone giveing me the books name and the page number I need to look up. Now in my own games I know it is a matter of my choice to allow it or not but in SRM's it is by the book rules so this is why I am wanting a book and page number. No offence Bitrunner and company but if it is not cannon then why can't it be done in SRM's?

Ok now why do I want this to be allowed simple I like the concept of a conjurer but to just waste 35 spell points that act as karma sucks. Although 4 level 4 spirit focuses (one per element) would be ok as well I guess.

The way I see it is this you take your priority for attributes and assign your points nothing over a 6. Then you choose to have your character's attributes affected when you choose to go with one of the metahuman races. This is more or less a side effect you have a 6 body which is max then you goblinize to troll and get +5 body +1 dermal body is now 11 (12) wow way over 6 but legal. So instead you have your magicaly active character go through initiation and as a side effect his magic attribute goes up 1 or more points.

Both initiation and Gobliniazition seem to me to be things your character can go through and as a side effect they effect your attributes. Yet only one is legal at character creation why?

Anyway just a thought I had which is all pointless if there is a book and specific cannon that says no you can't. If not then why the more or less house rule for SRM's? Is it not true that SRM's are supposed to be games that use cannon rules only?

Sorry if I misspelled anything see ya.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 4 2004, 07:17 PM

Spell points are not karma. The ability to use them as karma for binding/initiation is an optional rule, and as such is not used in Missions.

~J

Posted by: bitrunner Aug 5 2004, 12:23 AM

yeah, what he said...

and yes, it is canon...

from MITS, pg 58
"The gamemaster has the final say in determining when characters can initiate, but a certain amount of time should elapse between the character acquiring the required Karma and initiating another grade."

as a beginning character, you have
a) earned no Karma
b) have no Karma
c) don't have enough Karma
d) have to interact with a GM at some point for the Avatar. Since this takes up a little bit of time, it will normally only be done outside of a normal gaming session. We will be having opportunities at various conventions/locations for players that wish to self-initiate to undergo the process. if you wish to initiate with a group, the campaign will be sponsoring a few magical groups, each with their own goals and benefits/detriments. if you still feel you want to initiate with a group made of your own rules/strictures, you must have a Commando act as your "patron Avatar". (note that those that play at home and are not participating in the Missions program, per se, can obviously do as their GM allows).

besides, if i allowed mages to initiate as a beginning character, then i'd have:
a) 80% mage player characters
b) the other 20% bitching until their street samurai can have access to a delta clinic and a billion nuyen
c) some smart-ass with an ally spirit that wants to marry it, settle down, and have vampiric shapeshifter babies that have purple fur and will someday live on Mars...

Posted by: Casazil Aug 5 2004, 01:03 AM

Ok so I guess it is cannon now I know but hey it was worth a shot oh well guess if I make a conjurer I'll give him a million and buy those spirit focuses. Purple fur and live on mars you say well if a smart-ass does this I'll be sure to show up to see him/her off one less weirdo on the planet. LOL

Posted by: dokuja Aug 5 2004, 03:30 AM

Posted by: Dark father Aug 5 2004, 01:02 PM

It's possible for a security expert to not be rigged or datajacked. Most systems can be bypassed with a regular electronics roll. But some systems use remote control elements that won't be possible to tamper manually. However for SRM I think it will be possible for you to do most things. Just hope that you'll play with a decker that will be able to do control slave operations when technical operations won't be possible.

For your skills, I would recommend you too to take some electronics B/R. This is an important skill where you want to play inside the electronics components. I would also put some more points in electronics. For your Security systems & devices knowledge skills, if your game master allows it you might be able to use it as a complementary skill for your electronics rolls. And finally for the combat skill, I would recommend taking assault rifle. You'll need your skill points for your technical skills, so I think taking 3 combat skills might be too much. I would then take pistols and assault rifles.

Posted by: dokuja Aug 5 2004, 04:41 PM

Thanks. After reading over the section on Peception and Security Measures in SR3, I'm abandoning Assault Rifle & Whips altogether and using those 6 points to bump Electronics to 6 and Electronics B/R to 2 (bumping Biotech/First Aid to 2/4)

Posted by: Johnson Aug 11 2004, 02:50 PM

Remember to at least have some combat skill even if it is smg or pistols

Posted by: Cochise Aug 23 2004, 11:15 AM

Posted by: Johnson Aug 23 2004, 01:44 PM

Posted by: Cochise Aug 23 2004, 02:37 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Aug 23 2004, 03:22 PM

actually, the sourcebooks provide EXPANSION rules, which provide for extended game play and are therefore intended to be "core" rules. In each of those books, there are those sections marked "OPTIONAL"...

the decision was one of simplicity. First, by saying that all "OPTIONAL" rules are not being used, it is easier for all parties to remember. Consider if you are at a convention and the player says "I use my such-and-such maneuver from JuJitsu to subdue the mage"; the GM responds "Are we using the Optional rules for melee combat??"; half the players will say yes, half will say no, and the other half () will say "i don't know" or "maybe"....
Second, not everyone has a working of the optional rules - some of which modify or seriously change the expanded rules. everyone should have a familiarity with the expansion rules, and that's bad enough to keep up with. you also can't say "well, you can just look it up!" because a) that takes time, something that is precious during an event that must run in a certain time (which doesn't necessarily apply to home games) and b) assumes you have the book. the latter is a problem, because i, for one, am not going to cart around my entire SR library with me to every con i go to - not even a local one. if a player is a mage, then i would expect them to carry the basic book and MITS as a minimum. that way, the GM doesn't have to carry MITS, along with all the other books. Think about it, if you run SRM at a con, and every table you ran never had a mage, that's one more book weighing you down. now add R3, Matrix, and the SOTA books to that...i had 3 tables during Gencon that didn't have a mage, rigger, or decker at them - they were all diverse characters, but none of the above archetypes that required their own book.

however, as everyone knows with the world, rules are meant to be broken, and so at some point, i reserve the right to say "No Optional Rules...EXCEPT for yada-yada-yada"...

Posted by: Cochise Aug 23 2004, 05:16 PM

Posted by: Casazil Aug 23 2004, 09:53 PM

Well from what I see Cochise is correct but then again my copy of the Shadowrun Companion is the old Fasa edition.

So I guess I'd first have to ask do you have the latest printing Cochise?

If not well you just have to remember things have been changed and you may want to get the latest copy.

If you do have the latest copy then it pretty much comes done to what Bitrunner and company will and will not allow in game.

That being the case you will just have to play by the rules and rulings that are given however at home with friends you can do as you please.

I for one would love to be able to make a conjurer and use 35 spell points for initiation but hey it is not my game.

Somethings need to be done to make the game easy for the new players so as not to scare them off because they think they need to buy 20 books to play.

You need to remember that SRM's are hopefully a way to get new players into the game so when you can say "Hey if you liked playing go buy this book it's 30 bucks and your all set to play at home."

That is the message that is trying to be put out there.

At least that is the way it comes across to me if I am wrong somewhere Bitrunner please feel free to to let me know.

Posted by: Cochise Aug 23 2004, 10:25 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Aug 24 2004, 01:19 PM

Shadowrun Missions is partially a marketing arm for FanPro, as is the Commando program. From that perspective, we are supposed to be luring new players into the game, and so yes, one of the tenets is that you only need the basic book to play the game. I stick by that - there is NOTHING that says you have to have ANY of the other books. on the other hand, there are some that are STRONGLY recommended. Another focus is on retaining players and reattracting old players back to the game. For all three groups, beginner, current, and former players, it is stated that if you wish to use something from another book outside SR3, you must be able to provide access to that book to the GM. I've known players that played in VS for 5+ years with nothing but SR3 - most players, however, I have seen decide to go out and purchase the books that pertain to their character.

As for the SRComp, it was used for VS, and believe me, it caused more problems than it was worth...after reviewing it and after much discussion with the top staff and players of VS, it was agreed to not support the book in the SRM campaign. After discussing it with Rob (and also the President of FanPro), (they) understood the reasoning for not using the Companion in the style of campaign that we were running, and did not have a problem with us ruling out that book.

Under VS, it was quite common to have a table of all mages and/or adepts. now, under SRM, i'm seeing exactly the opposite. at gencon, we had tables that had no mages or maybe only one adept...hopefully it will fill out a little so that we have at least one spellslinger at each table, but we're definitely on the better side in SRM than the magic heavy campaign that was VS...

All i can say is that the VS campaign ran for just about 10 years, saw changes through different editions, and numerous new sourcebooks. we have learned a lot of important lessons as to what works, and what doesn't work. but even with SRM, we're not finished, and i'm not naive enough to think that the campaign is perfect. we will continuously tweak the campaign to make sure that we accomplish the goals of the campaign.

If you'd like a more in-depth response as to why certain things are done, feel free to email me and i'll send you an honest response...i think most of you out there - and those that have actually met me - know that i'll do just that. if i don't communicate with the players, then this campaign will fall apart, in my opinion...

Cochise - a personal shout-out - i don't know where you are in der fatherland, but there are a number of SRM players out there, both German and American, and in neighboring countries as well. shoot me an email and let me know where you are and i'll see if i can find anything near you...

Posted by: bitrunner Aug 24 2004, 01:40 PM

BTW -

I saw some characters at Gencon that were a little "off kilter"....

Please remember two things -

Skills / Linked Attributes: When spending skill points, remember that if you exceed your linked Attribute, the skill costs more. Please read SR3, pg 57. If you have a troll with a Charisma of 1, and you want to have Negotiation 6, then it will cost you 1 point for the first skill level, and 10 points for levels 2-6, for a total of 11 skill points, NOT 6!!!

Gear: Remember that you are not supposed to have anything with a Device Rating of 6 or an Availability greater than 8. This is just for new characters - once the game starts, you can certainly attempt to buy a Walther sniper rifle through your fixer, arms dealer, or other channels/contacts. Note that the Device Rating applies to programs, spells, and other "leveled" items. Cyberdecks are a slight exception, as their MPCP ratings are not included in this limitation - the Persona programs themselves, however, are limited to 6.


Other than that, there are a lot of creative characters out there (gee, and all made with the Priority system! ) such as bounty hunters, Desert Wars veteran, B&E specialist...some people i saw put a lot of work into their character, such as having made their own "contact cards" with color photos (of real people!) and short backgrounds on each of their contacts. keep up the good work!!!

ps: overheard a Sun shaman asking "will this adventure be taking place at night??" at the beginning of "A Dark and Stormy Night"... don't worry, his fellow table members shamed him enough already...

Posted by: linei Aug 25 2004, 10:26 AM

Posted by: bitrunner Aug 25 2004, 01:22 PM

yes, that includes credsticks...good question!

Posted by: linei Aug 25 2004, 01:30 PM

oops ... my players won't be happy to hear that

Posted by: Corporate Raider Aug 25 2004, 07:53 PM

linei said:

Posted by: linei Aug 25 2004, 10:03 PM

Posted by: Corporate Raider Aug 26 2004, 04:21 AM

linei said:

Posted by: bitrunner Aug 26 2004, 01:29 PM

just as you can purchase premade cards now with magstripes on them, getting a credstick would be easy...it is the DATA, as you've mentioned, and the forgery created that determines the rating....

yes, the rating refers to the data on the credstick, which in many cases may be nothing but pointers to larger databases, but there is also basic data on there as well, such as passcodes, fingerprint, maybe palm or retinal, but i think DNA would be too big to fit...physical data such as eye/hair color, height, weight, and a photo id and all the stuff you normally have on your driver's license is the kind of stuff on a credstick.

All in all, i would say that a credstick only holds 1 Mp of data...

but this is all irrelevant - what it comes down to is that a forged credstick has a rating. this rating, for beginning characters, cannot be greater than 6. the rating represents how well the credstick, and the data on it, will stand to scrutiny by whatever means are used to check it.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 26 2004, 02:18 PM

An Ebony credstick uses a cellular scan to verify itself.

We can either assume that it needs a matrix connection for very large transactions, or that it has enough memory to store a significant amount of information.

~J

Posted by: bitrunner Aug 26 2004, 04:26 PM

i would say the former...

some of you may not know, but if you try to purchase anything expensive, like a car, and pay in cash, it has to be reported to the government and in some cases they do a quick background check on you. this is to help catch drug dealers and other criminals that have lots of money.

as such, i would think that anyone trying to use an ebony credstick (or silver and gold for that matter) for purchases of 10,000 nY or more would probably involve having a matrix connection and having to wait for cross-checking of databases, including the government (IRS, DEA, FBI), the banks involved, plus some third party agencies such as credit agencies (Equifax, TransUnion, etc)

doesn't mean anything in game terms, except to help rationalize what happens behind the scenes, especially when a fake credstick fails...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Aug 26 2004, 06:07 PM

10k or more? The threshold for an Ebony is, IIRC, a ¥1,000,000 transaction, so I wouldn't think it'd need the full cellular scan for less than ¥100,000, or people would just get sick of the whole thing.

~J

Posted by: Corsair Sep 14 2004, 06:16 PM

I'm trying to build a rigger character, and I have some questions about vehicle customization. I was just going to take a stock vehicle and use the vehicle customization rules.

1) Engine customization: will probably add stress points. Stress points is an "Advanced Rule", which I would be inclined to interpret as optional. No vehicle customization? Yes, but ignore stress points? Yes, but use stress points only in relation with engine customization? Yes, and use stress points as intended?

2) What skill is used to control wheeled crawler drones (e.g. Steel Lynx Combat Drone)? Car?

3) Mini-blimps and Zeppelins, same piloting skill?

4) How versatile is the Renraku Arachnoid walker drone? The description says it can go anywhere a spider could go, but then it also says it's 17cm across. Pretty big spider. and the Shiawase Kanmushi says it is 10cm across, is it even more shneaky ('cause extra-shneaky is good ?

Whew, maybe I should have started a new topic.

As an aside, I very excited about trying Shadowrun: Missions (of course I excite easily...)

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 15 2004, 10:03 AM

OK, some good questions...

1) Stress points - be it cyberware or a vehicle, or whatever, stress points are something that we will not be dealing with in the campaign, at least at the campaign level. those that are using SR Missions events in your home campaign must, of course, check with your GM. I should probably clarify this by adding "for a character or character owned item". There may be times where you will have to deal with Stress Points, but it will be during the adventure and worked in as part of the story - it will be something that does not belong to a specific character. An example of this would be having the team steal a prototype vehicle. As they are escaping, they take some damage, which may cause Stress Points. They may end up back at the Johnson's place with a vehicle that falls apart after they slam the door shut....in this instance, it is used for dramatic effect, and may also be used as a basis of payment - as in, ok, this prototype suffered x amount of Stress Points due to the runners inability to sufficiently protect (or wrap enough duct tape around) it, so reduce their payment by y amount of nuyen.

Also, if, as a player/character, you WANT to use Stress Points to track overall damage to your vehicle, and you enjoy the extra reality this gives you (hey, some people do!), then by all means, use Stress Points - just don't eat up game time to do so - you will be responsible for tracking them yourself.

2) If it has wheels or tracks, you use Car

3) yep, both use the LTA (Lighter Than Air) skill

4) Versatile?? if you mean, as you say, being able to go anywhere, then yes, it is versatile, as is the Kanmushi. When it says it can travel where a spider can go, it means surfaces, not the size of openings, etc. The advantage of these drones is that they can crawl vertically up walls that have a surface the drone can climb. As far as being sneaky (or extra-sneaky), this is handled by the Signature rating - whichever has the higher rating is more sneaky...only if these ratings are the same would i base it on the size of the drone.

Posted by: Corsair Sep 15 2004, 11:13 AM

Excellent, thanks a lot bitrunner. The stress points question was the real sticker.

Posted by: Cranus Sep 18 2004, 03:55 PM

A player of mine expressed interest in playing an Otaku. Is that allowed in SRM?

Posted by: bitrunner Sep 18 2004, 06:23 PM

nope...

besides, playing an otaku would basically suck - there isn't much to do for a decker, let alone an otaku...

no one should be playing a full fledged decker - they need to have other skills that make them useful to the party, such as a tech wiz type character, decker/rigger, etc.

while you certainly can play a full fledged decker, be cautioned that you may become bored and disillusioned with the game because your character will be twiddling their thumbs most of the time.

as long as someone on your team has a datajack, cyberdeck, and decent computer skill (at least 4), and knows which end of a data cable to shove in his head, you have a decker for 75% of what you'll need to do...

Posted by: Casazil Sep 18 2004, 11:08 PM

What about letting someone if they wanted to play 2 characters one a full decker the other some other type that is more usefull?

Then there is no need to farm out the deck work and the player is not bored.

Posted by: Cthulhu449 Sep 19 2004, 01:04 AM

Even if the module does somehow leaves deckers totally out of the loop, my character and I won't complain about risk-free cred and karma.

Too bad about the Otaku thing though .

Posted by: Johnson Sep 20 2004, 03:01 PM

I have found that Combat Decker work well in this instance where they do assist with normal functions, like an extra pair of eyes

Posted by: Donner Oct 4 2004, 09:39 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 5 2004, 04:02 AM

Because it doesn't matter how much fluff you put in about your character being the guy who always took to electronics right off the bat for all his life if your six dice are the same as the six dice of the guy who didn't know an OR from a NAND until last week.

~J

Posted by: Donner Oct 5 2004, 02:57 PM

Posted by: toturi Oct 30 2004, 03:03 AM

Bitrunner, when is SOTA 2064 be introduced into the modules?

For example, if I am running SRMs during which module should SOTA 2064 be allowed?

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 1 2004, 04:20 PM

SOTA2064 is available now...it is not adventure-dependent...

Posted by: toturi Nov 5 2004, 12:51 AM

So to clarify... If I decide to run Mission Briefing for a new group now, they can get to use stuff in SOTA 2064?

Posted by: Casazil Nov 5 2004, 05:26 AM

That is what he is saying or so it seems to me. Just for your info the SRM's are set in 2064 if I am correct so it makes sense that SOTA 2064 is allowed. But hey that is just my view on your question. Anything else you want my wholely unprofessional opinion about? lol

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 5 2004, 01:52 PM

that is correct - if you run Mission Briefing, they can have stuff from SOTA2064 - this is really important for physical adepts!

the intro games (5 in the series) are "outside" of the timeline and can take place anytime for the players during the 2-year story arc. they can be played in pretty much any order, but there is a sort of sense in playing them in the order we've established, especially playing Mission Briefing first since it a) assumes it is your first big break into shadowrunning and b) gives you one or more fixers/contacts (if you don't do a TPS* on the adventure...



(*Total Pooch Screw )

Posted by: Dr. Black Nov 12 2004, 01:29 AM

According to the Missions web page character creation rules:

" Any gear, including magic, cyberware, bioware, et cetera, may be purchased at character creation, provided the Availability is 8 or less, and/or the Device Rating is 6 or less. Also, characters cannot have cultured bioware at creation. "

Note that it says, "and/or" for availability/device rating. If I use "or" then I could have items that are either higher than raiting 6 or higher than availability 8, but not both.

Now, did they mean "and", and not "and/or"?

Posted by: Fortune Nov 12 2004, 06:26 AM

It applies to both. If he'd have just said 'and', someone would have made the case that this one specific piece of equipment doesn't have both an Availability of 8 and a Rating of 6, so it should be legal.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 12 2004, 06:35 AM

Nope, it would work just fine with "and" due to the "or less" conditions. The problem would arise form the items that don't have both ratings (hence the use of "and/or").

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 15 2004, 05:22 PM

to be absolutely clear:

items MUST meet ALL of the following strictures:

1. an Availability of less than 9
2. a Device Rating less than 7
3. cannot be Military grade, as determined by the Legality Code. This covers the following categories: K, L, M, R, W, and Z
4. must be in the currently published/errata'd printings of the approved books

Posted by: Casazil Nov 15 2004, 07:16 PM

um ok less than 9 that's ok that reads 8 or less but greater than 6??????????? I think ya miss type there big guy lol.

Posted by: bitrunner Nov 15 2004, 08:28 PM

where??? i don't see any problems!!!

Posted by: Casazil Nov 16 2004, 05:59 AM

Um yeah sure thing buddy what ever you say.

Posted by: bit_buckethead Dec 15 2004, 09:36 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 15 2004, 11:07 PM

it is on the website - this is a special house rule for the campaign...although i'm seriously considering dropping it...

this really only affects a few items such as titanium bone lacing, wired 3, and a few other things. most everything else already falls under the rules of Availability and Device Rating so you wouldn't be able to get it anyways...so right now, it is just another layer of complexity that is probably not needed...

Posted by: Donner Dec 22 2004, 04:20 PM

More or less reproduced from the General Questions thread: may a starting, magically-aware character have some free (that is, Karma cost zero) Exclusive Force 2 (Karma reduced) or Fetish-required Force 1 (Karma-reduced) spells? At Force 2 or less, the formulae would be legal to acquire, for the most part.

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 22 2004, 06:30 PM

I'll check with Rob, but I'm thinking that learning a spell requires at least 1 point of Karma. Much like a minimum Target Number of 2, no matter what modifiers you have, learning a spell should also cost a minimum of 1 Karma, no matter how many restrictions you put on it...

Posted by: Fortune Dec 22 2004, 07:18 PM

My email to Rob on the subject ...

Posted by: KarmaInferno Dec 23 2004, 06:40 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 23 2004, 08:15 PM

Spells -

Certainly, as Rob has said, it is not unreasonable - IN A HOME CAMPAIGN. Unfortunately, in SRM, you're dealing with multiple GMs that may or may not ever play with that player/character again. What is "reasonable" to one GM may not be reasonable to another, depending on how they interpret the rules. Some are more strict than others.

Now, I could compromise and say "OK, tell you what - you can have x amount of spells for free, concerning these low level spells". But playing devil's advocate here, I've always said from the start that we need to stick to the book as much as possible and not have a bunch of house rules that many GMs may not be aware of - or hate having to print out a four page PDF file for any house rules and/or exceptions we come up with (which is why i'm dumping the no-military equipment rule...it isn't in the book - the Availability already takes care of that...)

So, sorry - no free spells - i'm opting to go with Rob's first answer - all spells require a minimum of 1 Karma.

Equipment -

Yes, you read it right above - I've thought it over and i'm dispensing with the requirement at Character Creation to not have military grade equipment. Just follow the Availability 8 / Device Rating 6 rules. This does allow for a few things, but that is ok - most people aren't going to have them anyways due to cost, essense, etc...

as for rockets, well, that's just the rocket, not the launcher or launch system!

Merry Xmas!

Posted by: Fortune Dec 23 2004, 09:29 PM

Both of those rulings are probably for the best. I only posted Rob's response as a matter of convenience. I did state earlier that it might not necessarily be right for SRM.

Posted by: bitrunner Dec 23 2004, 09:54 PM

no problem...not saying it was an unreasonable request...

we all know there are holes in the rules that can go either way...at least until 4th edition comes out!

Posted by: Regnad Kcin Dec 9 2005, 03:16 PM

I've had some questions from my local Runners about the 4.0 conversion/rebuild/whatever we're calling it.

How is this 4.0 handoff going to work? Is it a straight 400 point build? What happens to the Runner's equipment, both mundane and magical? What happens to certed equipment? Will new contact certs be issued with updated stats?

On a separate note, I've heard some odd news about the license for SR 4.0 being pulled from FanPro because they're totally dicking up the print runs. Any word on that?

-Regnad Kcin

Posted by: the_dunner Dec 9 2005, 04:31 PM

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