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Dumpshock Forums _ General Gaming _ Universal RPG's

Posted by: Weredigo Dec 29 2005, 10:45 AM

I've been playing DnD3.0/5 , D20 Modern, and bESM D20, and I've had so much fun with it I got a hold of the D20 conversions for SR. The game runs a lot more smoothly, there's more character modification options, the Combat is quicker (and sometimes more lethal), Hallelujah I have seen the LIGHT.

Who else here plays D20 stuff???

Posted by: Critias Dec 29 2005, 11:29 AM

How the hell is d20 anything "more lethal" than SR?

Posted by: Tanka Dec 29 2005, 03:12 PM

...

More lethal? More character options?

YOU'RE LIMITED BY CLASSES, FOR GOD'S SAKE!

You want to play a mage that can take a hit? Oh, too bad. Armor on a mage = spell failure. HP on a mage is laughable, because then you suck at casting.

More lethal? By the time you have 200 or so HP, you can leap off a cliff and survive. In SR, were you to do that, you'd be a grease stain on the ground below.

Now, unless, of course, you're not using canon rules. In which case YOU SHOULD HAVE TOLD US SO IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Sigh.

Posted by: Birdy Dec 29 2005, 05:48 PM

Actually some rules-subsets (i.e T20) have alternate ways of handling Hitpoints. Those work out resonably realistic

Btw: Didn't they fix the "Dwarfen fighters from the sky" problem around AD&D 2.Ed?

Posted by: Tanka Dec 29 2005, 06:12 PM

Not really.

From DMG3.5, p. 303

QUOTE

The basic rule is simple: 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6.

There's a couple of fluff rules about jumping deliberately, as well as rolling Jump/Tumble checks.

So, basically, the most damage you can take is 120. No matter how high you jump/fall from.

Realistic? Oh hell no.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Dec 29 2005, 10:00 PM

Hallelujah! He has seen the LIGHT!

And the light is from an incoming freight train...

Posted by: nezumi Dec 29 2005, 10:07 PM

Although I seem to recollect there's a constitution roll against instant death if you take more than like 50 points of damage in one go.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Dec 29 2005, 10:59 PM

I don't play the sytem much but it has changed alot from back when i played D&D.

3.5 feels very smooth.

Posted by: Aku Dec 30 2005, 01:31 AM

QUOTE (nezumi)

Although I seem to recollect there's a constitution roll against instant death if you take more than like 50 points of damage in one go.

However, i think that that rule MIGHT be "optional", additionaly, i think theres an "optional" rule to the option, that you modify that 50 based on...something, so that everyone isn't laying down con saves every time a level 20 wizard drops a maximized fireball.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Dec 30 2005, 02:44 AM

Thats hwy i like Shadowrun, life can be extinguished so easily.

Posted by: Adam Dec 30 2005, 07:32 PM

QUOTE (tanka)

...

More lethal? More character options?

YOU'RE LIMITED BY CLASSES, FOR GOD'S SAKE!

Not in the classless variants, of which BESM d20, which he specifically mentioned, is one. [or, rather, can be one -- it has options for both classes and non-class play.]

There have been several "Grim and gritty" d20 variants in the last year or so, as well -- Thieves' World from Green Ronin, A Game of Thrones from GoO.

Posted by: stevebugge Dec 30 2005, 09:19 PM

I picked up a copy of the Fuzion general system the other day, not for SR but for one of the guys in our group who is perpetually trying to create his own game settings. He's got a great imagination and creates really cool worlds, unfortunately he's got the math and statistics skills of a cinderblock so his created games inevitably fail due to nonsensical mechanics.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Dec 30 2005, 10:37 PM

What is this Fuzion game, never heard of it.

Posted by: stevebugge Dec 30 2005, 10:47 PM

It's a generic gaming system, still reading it through. The big draw is that it's only about 50 pages, very versatile, not d20 and under $10 for a bound copy.

Though this link looks to contain the booklet as a PDF free.

http://www.talsorian.com/software/fuzion.pdf#search='fuzion%20game%20system'

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Dec 31 2005, 12:44 AM

I need no more game systems.

Posted by: Tanka Dec 31 2005, 02:23 AM

QUOTE (Adam)

QUOTE (tanka @ Dec 29 2005, 10:12 AM)

...

More lethal? More character options?

YOU'RE LIMITED BY CLASSES, FOR GOD'S SAKE!

True. However, classless in d20 is purely optional. I've yet to actually see anyone use it.

Now, I've had GMs make up a class on the fly based on a concept, but it's still class-limited then.

Posted by: Grinder Dec 31 2005, 11:02 AM

QUOTE (Weredigo)

Who else here plays D20 stuff???

I play Eberron. Very nice setting, though not as good as Earthdawn.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Dec 31 2005, 02:41 PM

Ok i have the 3.5 ravenloft books.

Posted by: Grinder Dec 31 2005, 04:24 PM

I guess one can enjoy every rpg as long as its fun to play and you play it with your friends.

Posted by: Erebus Jan 3 2006, 12:14 AM

I never really thought of d20 as Universal... It tries to be, but I've always felt it was way too limited. I haven't seen BESM d20 though, so keep that in mind.

I generally use GURPs for most stuff these days...

Posted by: JongWK Jan 6 2006, 03:00 PM

For some people here, I'd like to note that d20 != D&D.

I'm having much fun with Green Ronin's True 20 (Highlander Immortals in Imperial Rome, anyone?).

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jan 7 2006, 01:52 AM

QUOTE (JongWK)

For some people here, I'd like to note that d20 != D&D.

I'm having much fun with Green Ronin's True 20 (Highlander Immortals in Imperial Rome, anyone?).

Oh yeah i'm down with that bro, we found some rules on the net once that where immortal rules for WoD.

it was unbalanced but very good games.

Posted by: LaughingTiger Jan 7 2006, 09:37 PM

I play a regular game of D&D and the new rules are neat. They're not anything I would want to mix with Shadowrun.

I'm also in a game of Starship troopers, using the D20 rules. My bad-ass trooper, after several levels, finally is nearing, almost at... 20 hit points.

20.

My gun on burst does 3D8.

It's deadly, deadly, deadly.

The "universal" aspect of D20 is how amazingly modifiable it is. You can tweak the rules to fit just about any setting you want and if you're willing to get into it, it really works. I'm not a huge fan of class-and-level systems, but for certain things, I'm willing to overlook.

And again, D20!=D&D. The two are very seperate at times.

Posted by: Aku Jan 7 2006, 10:29 PM

quote=lauging tiger]And again, D20!=D&D. The two are very seperate at times.
[/quote]

Not really, not any more. DnD is merely a setting (base canon is Greyhawk, i beleive) but everything is now built using the d20 rulesset, however, it varies as much as any other d20 setting.

Posted by: JongWK Jan 8 2006, 04:03 AM

d20 can have very, very different interpretations: D&D, True 20, Mutants & Masterminds, Babylon 5, BESM d20, etc.

Posted by: ash_wednesday Jan 12 2006, 11:44 AM

I have Star wars d20. When did they make SR d20? Is it legit or just some fan who did the conversion?

Posted by: nezumi Jan 12 2006, 04:43 PM

No one has ever made the... game you suggest. Never. You should burn your post for even suggesting it, then burn your hands for writing it and your eyes for looking upon it. I too shall pierce my eyes, just as soon as I post on the drop bear thread.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jan 12 2006, 05:44 PM

QUOTE (ash_wednesday)

I have Star wars d20. When did they make SR d20? Is it legit or just some fan who did the conversion?

his name is appropiate, we should just burn the member at the stake in town square...if not in front of Dante's Inferno.

Posted by: Erebus Jan 12 2006, 06:54 PM

QUOTE (ash_wednesday)

I have Star wars d20. When did they make SR d20? Is it legit or just some fan who did the conversion?

Too be honest, I didn't mind d20 Star Wars. I used to swear by WEGs version, but then I ran a one-shot with d20 and my players really liked it. The key to it was to remember that there are no multi-class restrictions, and to use all the classes in combonations to make the character you wanted...

I don't think I could stomach a d20 version of SR though.... I can't imagine d20 classes doing any justice to the cyberpunk genre.

Just my 2cr.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 12 2006, 07:01 PM

Haha, I can't read your blasphemies as I have already burnt out my eyes. Your repetitious quoting of that hated line does nothing to me.

Posted by: Adam Jan 12 2006, 08:47 PM

QUOTE (ash_wednesday)

I have Star wars d20. When did they make SR d20? Is it legit or just some fan who did the conversion?

To actually answer your question: It's a legit fully-licensed game, published by Wizards of the Coast. They released an original and a revised edition, and a fair number of sourcebooks, but they haven't released any new sourcebooks for well over a year now.

I played in a campaign for about 8 months or so and had a good time, but we messed around with the rules a lot to get the extremely cinematic feel that we wanted, and we outrighted ignored some rules after testing them out once, such as the starship combat rules.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 12 2006, 08:48 PM

I believe Adam is referring to Star Wars d20. Fan Pro has not sold the rights to any other company to make a *spit* d20 version of Shadowrun.

Posted by: Adam Jan 12 2006, 10:04 PM

Ugh. Don't post before morning coffee, Adam. I saw 'SR' and read 'SW'. Ooops.

No official SR d20, although there are some fan conversions floating around.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jan 12 2006, 11:09 PM

I say we burn Adam next at the Stake for making such errors. and we'll burn him before he can have his soy coffee.

Posted by: stevebugge Jan 12 2006, 11:10 PM

QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)

I say we burn Adam next at the Stake for making such errors. and we'll burn him before he can have his soy coffee.

That can only be done using the Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail game system.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jan 12 2006, 11:33 PM

They made a game of that montrousity?

By god the vorpal rabbit....it has stats now.

Posted by: stevebugge Jan 12 2006, 11:48 PM

I'm pretty sure they did, and a board game and a ccg too.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 18 2006, 01:27 PM

I'm a fan of Green Ronin's stuff. A lot of it has the 1st edition feel, but much smoother rules. I like a lot of the old stuff, like the WEG version of Star Wars, although admittedly I haven't played the D20 version. I've been avoiding it like marijuana : afraid that I might like it and it'll eventually turn my brain to mush.

I'm just happy they made a Discworld game, although I'm not a fan of Gurps. Not sure what I'll try converting that to. But it'll be fun!

Posted by: Maltaltin Feb 16 2006, 05:42 PM

DnD is not a realistic game its not and never really was designed to be that way so trying to compare SR a game designed to be life like where every option is at your disposal to a game where you knock down the door to fight the next monster isn't really fair in any sense.

Posted by: danzig138 Feb 21 2006, 09:22 AM

QUOTE (Maltaltin)

DnD is not a realistic game

No, it's not a realistic game. Neither is Shadowrun. What SR is, compared to D&D, is frequently more lethal over a long term (although not as much when compared to low level D&D characters).

The OP didn't restrict himself to D&D though. He also mentioned d20 Modern. d20M is much more lethal than standard D&D. The massive damage threshold is equal to a character's Con, and a failed DC 15 Fort save sends him to -1.

d20M is very adjustable in terms of lethality. The frequent house and 3rd-party rules I see are mas dmg threshold of 10, or Fort DC of 10 + damage, 10 + 1/2 damage. The rule I'm using in my classless SR/d20M-based conversion is MDT of 10 + Con mod + Size mod. Save DC is 10 + damage, and failure reduces you to -1d20 hit points. I'm also using an injury system hijacked from some OGL product. Blood and something or the other, maybe a Modern Disaptch.

The characters begin with hp=Con. They don't automatically gain new hit points unless their Con increases. If they want hit points, they have to spend XP on buying hit dice (raing from 500 xp to 2,000 xp). The conversion is based in large part on the OGL rules for Godlike. Of course, xp spent on hit dice is xp not spent on skills, feats, wealth, saves, etc.

In league with this, I'm using armor = damage conversion, with armor providing a random conversion amount with each hit.

I hope to start playtesting this weekend if my back heals up some. I expect it to be as lethal, if not more so, than the actual SR system. So far, I'm pleased with the base d20 system. It's certainly one of the easier systems to fiddle with.

Posted by: Dranem Mar 12 2006, 05:55 AM

I realize this thread is getting a little old, but figured I'd add in my two cents Canadian in it.

d20 fantasy, d20 modern or d20 future... none of these systems really incorporates a stun track that we use in SR, nor do spells work in the same way. With the d20 system, most classes base spells on a quota (you can only cast x amount of this level spell per day) rather than the open system that SR uses where spell power and how much you can sling depends on how much you can soak from the mana drain of the experience.

d20 also allows you to run nilly-willy even though your near dead (or should be considered dead depending on certain feats) and fight as if you're in full form. That is what makes the d20 system so unrealistic.

Though I think D&D wanted to incorporate drain and overchannelling into their magic system (after all Raistlin killed himself by overchanneling magic), for some reason it never made it to the rules...

If one would to redesign the d20 spell system to be more SR like (not to mention astral which doesn't exist in the d20 system either) then I may be interested in looking at the product. In the mean time, though some rules are big enough to drive a truck through, the d6 system has done SR well for over 20 years, so I don't see the need to change it.

Posted by: mfb Mar 12 2006, 06:10 AM

QUOTE (Dranem)

d20 fantasy, d20 modern or d20 future... none of these systems really incorporates a stun track that we use in SR

untrue. d20 incorporates subdual damage, which is counted up from 0 and compared to your current hp. when subdual dmg > hp, you go down. it is, in that way, better than SR, since subdual damage and hp combine to decide when you go down, rather than allowing you to run around at the equivalent of 9 boxes of each. i agree that the lack of wound mods is rankling, though.

rather than converting d20's magic system, you'd probably want to convert the psionic system (or, if you have Unearthed Arcana, i believe there's a magic points system that works similar to psionics' power points).

QUOTE (Maltaltin)

i'll note that while this is certainly an encouraged style of D&D game, the game itself is just as open as SR.

Posted by: Pierre Mar 13 2006, 10:25 PM

Hi all.

The d20 system have a great potential to determine the difficulty of any task, and the gift system is strong enough to put differences between two characters from the same class. I think it s a really good system for beginners, and for fantasy-like games where combat situation are usually close combat.
Science-fiction game systems should be more focus on ranged combat, which should be more frequent.
But a really good system have percentage and a success margin... (in my opinion)

I've tought Raistlin failed a system shock test.

Eberron is now the ~~canon~~ main universe in production in D&D. And its quite interesting, fun and refreshing. perfect for d20.

Posted by: Ophis Mar 14 2006, 12:49 AM

Eberron is not the canon D+D world, that is still the bag of wank called Greyhawk. Eberron is just the good D+D world, as FR has lost its way due to novel sales...

Posted by: Catsnightmare Mar 16 2006, 02:29 AM

QUOTE (mfb)

QUOTE (Dranem)

d20 fantasy, d20 modern or d20 future... none of these systems really incorporates a stun track that we use in SR

Also d20 Modern also has it's overdamage rule much harsher than D&D. Basically any damage greater than your Con score in a single attack and you must make a saving throw or be instantly killed, no matter your hit points.

Posted by: arcady Mar 25 2006, 10:55 PM

Yeah but... d20 Modern has some horrible unarmed combat rules. Near impossible to hurt anyone, way too unreal...

Further, needing a feat just to be able to hold your finger down on the trigger of a semi-automatic and fire a burst is absurd... Any fool can fire a burst from a gun - although not with accuracy. But in d20 modern you cannot even fire poorly unless you have the feat first. It is simple impossible under he 'laws of d20 physics' to hold down your finger.

Similar such rules abound in d20 Modern.

SRv3 made a better modern day action game than d20 Modern. Strip away all the magic and advanced tech and non humans from Shadowrun and you still have a better modern day game.

On the topic of 'universal RPGs', look to tri-stat or Hero - fairly solid options each. Though I would say that a game system tailored to its settings will generally do a better job than one that tries to handle often contradictory setting and genre needs.