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Dumpshock Forums _ General Gaming _ What's your D&D alignment?

Posted by: emo samurai Sep 9 2006, 08:13 AM

This is provoked by my GM telling me that he and almost every other person were neutral evil, since they only cared about themselves. I told him that I was pretty good, since I voluntarily tutored a stroke sufferer in order to help him read again. He told me I was chaotic good, and I kind of agreed. I believe that society should exist to protect the interests of the individual from the interests of survivalism, both petty and institutional.

What about you?

Posted by: Dranem Sep 9 2006, 08:17 AM

Shadowrun doesn't bother itself with combersome alignment systems...
Think you're posting in the wrong forum.. but this could raise a whole lot of debate - and has been covered a few times over at WOTC's D&D Forums.

[edit] (instead of adding another post) I doubt one action can make or break an alignment.. There are some 'Alignment Generators' on the Internet, I know of 3 myself, that ask you 20-50 questions. Depending on the D&D Edition, you can often get opposite results. And some are quite biased in their questions/answers - because they correspond to what the generator's author considers good, evil, lawful or neutral... not necessarily what it may really be.
But as Critias explained, real life rarely follows an alignment system, so I wouldn't go around touting it.[/edit]

Posted by: Critias Sep 9 2006, 08:54 AM

Somewhere between CN and NE, mood dependent. And that's the biggest issue with "alignments" in D&D -- as written, their lack of flexibility. Very few people are good all the time, or evil all the time.

So, you helped a stroke victim, for instance, and as such you're supposedly CG. Whoopty shit. How much of your time and money have you given today? How many bums have you walked past lately without forking over a dime (and then spent money on games, for yourself)? When was the last time you broke an innocent man out of prison, protested an unjust law, or robbed from a wealthy banker to feed a homeless family?

I've worked at summer camps for sick kids (for about eight years), I've literally helped old ladies across the street, I earned my Eagle rank, I've volunteered to fight floods, helped put out a forest fire, saved the life of a stranger after an accident (at personal risk), volunteered for several months to paint a soup kitchen, and taught children basic outdoors and woodsman survival skills for free (using my own vacation time). I've stood up for my coworkers against an unfair boss, I've broken company rules to do what's right for a customer, and I've worked more double shifts to cover for someone else than I can count. Golly, aren't I a good person? NG, maybe? Yeah, Neutral Good works.

But, wait. I've also cut people off in traffic, had sex with other men's wives, called people stupid to their faces, insulted a fat guy for his weight, lied to get my way, shoplifted, brushed past homeless people, and been seven different shades of petty, vengefull, wrathfull, spitefull, lustfull, and bitter. Oooh, Evil. NE, probably.

Y'know why?

Because I'm not an alignment, and neither are most people. I'm a human being, with my own mood, feelings, and changes of heart and maturity level. Almost everyone's done some good and some bad in their life -- people that are genuinely "good" and "evil" are, by far, the exceptions rather than the rules.

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Sep 9 2006, 09:48 AM

QUOTE (Critias)

But, wait. I've also cut people off in traffic, had sex with other men's wives, called people stupid to their faces, insulted a fat guy for his weight, lied to get my way, shoplifted, brushed past homeless people, and been seven different shades of petty, vengefull, wrathfull, spitefull, lustfull, and bitter. Oooh, Evil. NE, probably.

And I needed to be taught a lesson? LOL nice to see the pot calling the kettle black is the favorite past time of DSers.

But I do agree with you, aligments are silly. I have done many of the same things in the past. Most of them were court ordered to start but I kept going because I was enjoying it. Like helping feeding the homeless. After my 1000 hours of community service was dine I kept going, I guess it became habit.

The giving money to homeless people is a bit of an oddity. Sometimes I do it, sometimes I dont. One night while sitting in my truck in DC a homeless guy asked me for 50 cent, I gave him about $10 in change I had in my cup holder (its funny watchign a homeless guy try to give you money back, he kept saying it was too much). Then the next day a guy asked me for a dollar and I laughed at him.

I always help old people, not sure why, but I have a soft place in my heart for them I guess. Wether its crossing the street, getting somethign off the shelf, putting their air conditioners in their windows when summer starts, breaking company rules to make sure they get fair treatment. Little kids to, thats like 10 and below.

Everyone else is hit or miss, depends how I feel at that moment.

I wont go into my evil side, it seems that people are a little too sensitive about those things around here.

Posted by: warrior_allanon Sep 9 2006, 01:58 PM

i have to say i'm predominantly true neutral to chaotic evil. I say this because usually i'm of the "life's a b!%*# and then you die" mentality but then something will actually tick me off and the depths of my darkness start to show.

Posted by: emo samurai Sep 9 2006, 03:53 PM

Hmm... You seem to think that I don't want ambiguous answers, but this is good.

Plus, there's plenty of ambiguity in even Critias's answers. Were the men neglectful bastards whose wives were too cowardly to get away from? Were those people you called stupid just stupid, or were they otherwise repugnant? Same with the fat guy. And is it better to passively-aggressively talk about them behind their back than it is to tell them it to their faces? Homeless people... hard time with that.

As for your good works, did you really care? Did you have sincerity in your heart? Because that's pretty much a crux right there.

I'm getting a bit deep in here... This is good. I think an SR board is the perfect place to ask about alignment because of the ambiguity.

There aren't really many visible homeless people in my town, but I don't think we should kick them out of parks. Maybe I should volunteer more.

And could you link to some alignment generators?

Posted by: eidolon Sep 9 2006, 04:16 PM

What the fuck? I go to sleep for a few hours and this becomes the Wizards forums?

Posted by: emo samurai Sep 9 2006, 07:08 PM

What's an alignment thread like on WOTC? Is it as ambiguous as this? Because ambiguity is a lot more fun.

Posted by: eidolon Sep 10 2006, 03:14 AM

Try it sometime. There's a "new' thread on it at least every five minutes. (New in that some dumbass didn't see the one three threads down.)

There are a few regulars there that have some interesting ideas on it, and of course there are a few regulars and non-regulars that have some downright idiotic ways of handling it. It's as ludicrous as trying to discuss religion.

And yeah, some threads are ambiguous. I don't think "ambiguous" is the right word for your OP though.

Also, if you're actually all that interested in it, I would suggest studying it a bit more. It can be quite a bit deeper than "I tutor a kid". (It doesn't have to be of course.)

The main issue you will see crop up with D&D alignment when it comes to discussion about it is that a lot of people don't ever actually seem to grasp that alignment (and the forces involved) are real forces, with real effects on the world. A lot of people will try to apply moral relativism to it, and it breaks down. Then, they complain that it's "a straightjacket" and "dumb and broken", when really, if they would just pay the fuck attention to what they're reading, there wouldn't be any problems. But hey, there are morons in any hobby.

(This isn't to say you can't play D&D treating alignment/good/evil/etc. as relative concepts, just be prepared for the game to stop making sense and start having all kinds of problems and stupid questions.

Posted by: Critias Sep 10 2006, 08:48 AM

Or, at least, you have trouble treating alignment like that in a standard D&D game. There are a few settings with their own rules for that sort of thing, that I much prefer -- Thieves' World, Conan, etc. But, then again, I prefer darker/lower fantasy settings, so it shouldn't surprise anyone I'd rather run around Sanctuary than Waterdeep.

Posted by: SpasticTeapot Sep 12 2006, 06:00 AM

Alignment: Shadowrunner.

"It's not wrong if you're shoplifting from Wal-Mart."

Posted by: emo samurai Sep 13 2006, 10:22 PM

No, SpasticTeapot, it isn't.

Posted by: SpasticTeapot Sep 13 2006, 11:33 PM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

No, SpasticTeapot, it isn't.

Woah. Someone agreed with me!

Note that I do not shoplift from wally-world. The local stores have crappy stuff.

Besides, I'm not done with my RIFD-burnout device yet, and I still need to make facimilies of WalMart reciepts.

Posted by: nezumi Sep 14 2006, 01:50 AM

QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)

QUOTE (emo samurai @ Sep 13 2006, 05:22 PM)

No, SpasticTeapot, it isn't.

You mean a big, tin foil envelope? Or the powerful magnet? I regularly burn out my stolen security tags (they practically leave them lying around at k-mart, and they're worth less than a cent a piece).

Posted by: emo samurai Sep 14 2006, 03:14 AM

Let's team up and form a RL shadowrunning team!

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Sep 14 2006, 03:58 AM

Actually what some shoplifters do is get those decorative bags from large chain stores or those "birthday" bag lazy people use to "wrap" presents instead of wrapping papper. They then wrap the with aluminum foil, then put it into another bag. Basically its a 3 layer bag with foil in the middle. THen they drop stuff in the bag and when they walk through the security scanners it doesnt go off.

Posted by: nezumi Sep 14 2006, 02:47 PM

QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)

They then wrap the with aluminum foil, then put it into another bag.

I correct you only because I once thought this would work too.

You cannot make a faraday cage out of aluminum foil. You must use a ferrous metal like tin.

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Sep 14 2006, 08:09 PM

I didnt say I do it. I say it because thats what I have seen. Dont forget you are not trying to block high wattage radios. Your lucky if the radio signals coming off these security sensors go more then 2 feet. Any metal will stop such a low output.

And if you need to make it out of a ferrous metal, why did the NSA spend millions to wrap the building in copper mesh?

A Faraday cage is generally made of copper mesh that is then grounded.

Sensors are a tricky object.

Once when getting ready to go through a metal detector at a court house, I forgot to take my belt off. The officer standing there told me to just put my hand over the belt buckle and walk through. I did and the alarm didnt go off. Just shows these security devices arent wattage devices.

Posted by: nezumi Sep 14 2006, 08:37 PM

QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)

And if you need to make it out of a ferrous metal, why did the NSA spend millions to wrap the building in copper mesh?

Because I didn't understand what ferrous meant

I meant conductive. However looking it up, aluminum is a good conductor, so I guess I"ll have to simply have to rely on the fact that Cray said you can't make a faraday cage out of aluminum foil and leave it at that.

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Sep 14 2006, 09:04 PM

All a Faraday cage does is basically intercept the radio waves hitting it. Then it turns to electricity (its a bit more complicated then that) and the ground lead drains that electricity to the ground. Thus making the radio signal so weak its virtually non exsistent.

Chances are when people try to use the foil bag they dont close the top. That opening would be enough to allow the signals to still get in and out. The foil bag would rely totally reflecting the signals and not intercepting and draining off.

Cray is technically correct that you arent making a Farady cage as described by the construction of the shoplifters bag. But is wrong when saying you cant make a shielding device out of aluminum foil.

Some car antennas are made of aluminum, if they couldnt intercept radio signals and then conduct the electricity to the radio you would get static the entire time.

Posted by: emo samurai Sep 18 2006, 04:16 AM

So... alignment?

Posted by: Oracle Sep 20 2006, 09:47 AM

I think most people are "neutral". Me too.

Posted by: Witness Sep 20 2006, 10:27 AM

I don't really know. Sometimes chaotic, sometimes lawful. Often neutral. Occasionally good. I think this is why I found the D&D alignment system to be a bit limiting and ultimately unnecessary.

Posted by: emo samurai Sep 20 2006, 01:20 PM

Most actions aren't good or evil, really, just daily "take care of yourself and business" type actions.

Posted by: eidolon Sep 20 2006, 01:53 PM

As usual, the most likely outcome of a forum thread regarding this topic is to discover that most people don't understand the D&D alignment system.

Posted by: Witness Sep 20 2006, 03:23 PM

QUOTE (eidolon)

As usual, the most likely outcome of a forum thread regarding this topic is to discover that most people don't understand the D&D alignment system.

Probably not.

Posted by: emo samurai Sep 20 2006, 05:37 PM

Examples? I think I get it pretty well.

Posted by: Witness Sep 20 2006, 05:55 PM

I suspect he's getting at the fact that alignments might not be meant to be totally rigid, but more of an inspirational guideline- a general destination rather than a specific route, so to speak. An aspiration more than an attitude.

Or something like that.

Posted by: eidolon Sep 20 2006, 06:33 PM

Alignment is circular. Too many people see it as being a straightjacket, an unachievable standard to which their characters must aspire. This misunderstanding is often the only thing motivating a persons dislike of the alignment system, which is sad.

I have a lot of writing about this, but sadly it currently resides on another machine. If anyone is still interested in it at a later date, and I can remember to, I'll post it. Right now I don't have the desire to rewrite what I've already got.

Posted by: Lagomorph Sep 20 2006, 09:38 PM

I'd be interested to see what you've written about the subject.

Posted by: eidolon Sep 20 2006, 09:56 PM

When I get finished unpacking and the machine is up and running, I'll be glad to post what I can find.

That's assuming my machine still runs...we had the MOVERS FROM HELL.

Posted by: eidolon Sep 25 2006, 10:34 PM

The following linked threads at WotC contain a lot on my views on, and ways of handling, alignment in D&D. Just as with any set of viewpoints, this one is malleable, and thus may not currently be exactly as you'll see here.

I still don't have my machine up and going, but this ought to be enough to satisfy the...one request.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=546431

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=547340

(I'm Slyde Shadowdart.)

Posted by: De Badd Ass Sep 25 2006, 11:28 PM

QUOTE (eidolon)

What the fuck? I go to sleep for a few hours and this becomes the Wizards forums?

What he said!

You can go to http://neppyman.irulethe.net/dndwho/ to learn your dnd alignment. After that, you should discuss your alignment on the WOTC Wizards forums.

If you want to talk Shadowrun alignments: how about hero, villain, and mercenary ?

Maybe you prefer Samuri, Ninja, and Ronin?

Posted by: Ophis Sep 26 2006, 12:19 AM

We all know that alignment has two axis.

So I'm Ronin Hero(or hero ronin I suppose).

Actually thats quite a cool scale.

Posted by: De Badd Ass Sep 26 2006, 12:59 AM

QUOTE (Ophis)

We all know that alignment has two axis.

DnD uses a 2 dimensional alignment scheme. I think the Shadowrun universe is more complex than DnD. I imagine a runners alignment as a vector in an n-dimensional space. A n-dimensional space can have as many parameters as there are ways you characterize yourself, and a vector has both magnitude an direction.

In other words, Samurai is an alignment (Yeah! I said it! OTOH: if you compare the SR4 Street Samurai example to the one in SR3, and you will see that while both follow a code of honor, the SR4 text is toned down compared to SR3). Mercenary is also an alignment. Mafioso, ditto. Yakuza, Ninja, Eco-terrorist, ditto. Mentor spirits, yeah.

Add to that a description of your commitment - the magnitude of your alignment vector. Are you a Ninja wannabe, a weekend warrior, or an assassin with 15 kills. I guess shadowrun already uses street cred and notoriety to measure your "runnerness". I guess you could also use something like essense as an inverse measure of your sammyness

Posted by: hyzmarca Oct 6 2006, 10:30 AM

What do you mean that my Paladin can't use the Hand of Vecna? Am I supposed to run around with a bleeding stump?

Posted by: Text-chan Oct 16 2006, 09:36 AM

I suppose I'd be close to true neutral, even if I don't achieve it, I strive for equality in all things, with perhaps a bit of a leaning towards my own beliefs in the matter of justice... Lawful neutral, perhaps? Shit, I need to go back and read those descriptions again.