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Dumpshock Forums _ General Gaming _ Chopping people up with sabres

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jun 11 2007, 11:52 PM

I grew up in New York City and I am currently in the midst of having my first experience living in a place where machetes are extremely commonplace and carried openly due to dense jungle terrain making them very important multipurpose tools.

Unfortunately, sometimes when people get drunk and belligerent certain individuals go a step further than throwing punches and sometimes assault with rocks or said machetes.

I realized that machetes look a lot like cutlasses in terms of the blade shape and size. Probably the only difference between a cutlass and a machete is the quality of the metal used to make the blade and the presence of a crossguard.

I also realized that for the future if I ever spend time in machete-prevalent places it would probably make sense to study some form of fencing that uses cuts. That's not to say that I'd want to go and machete fence with an enraged individual, but instead it's more having to do with the fact that if you want to have a chance at avoiding something it's really helpful to know how that works. For example, if somebody wants to know how to not be punched injuriously by another person it's really helpful if he's practiced boxing extensively in the past. Moreso than if he just flails around and runs away with the guy chasing him.

I figure that there are probably people here who know about this kind of fencing. I understand that saber fencing is the type that uses the most cutting? I wanted to ask here what my options would be if I ever wanted to take up fencing with lots of cuts as a hobby in the United States. What types of organizations are there? Where are they located? How realistic versus academic do they tend to be?

If anyone has some thoughts to throw my way I'd be grateful.

Posted by: Demon_Bob Jun 12 2007, 01:10 AM

I'm almost ready to suggest metal forearm guards, but that still is probably a bad idea.

There is a Martial Art Form from the ?Philippines? that involes fighting with 2 sticks or blades. It is quick and deadly. Honestly, your best bet would be to avoid getting into such fights. Sane advice from a highly skilled knife fighter I used to know. "Don't fight unless you absolutely have to. Any fool can get lucky, and they only have to get lucky once to ruin your life." He also believed in practicing long and hard, just incase he did have to fight.

If you do study under someone be extremely careful on you you pick.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jun 12 2007, 02:42 AM

QUOTE (Demon_Bob)

What you're referring to is Escrima. I suppose that's an option. I think it's gotten kind of commercialized in the US, though. It probably needs to be evaluated on a place-by-place basis.

I actually spent a couple of years in college at an escrima club. We did a lot of drills with rattan sticks, some forms, some cute things with knives. However, I really don't think that it made me able to attack anyone effectively with a knife. A number of months ago I met up with an old friend of mine who is a martial arts instructor in NYC and who used to be a marine. I'll leave out the long story but basically we ended up sparring each other with rubber practice knives and he completely pwned me. I chiefly fault my lack of "alive" training with blades.

The other thing is that as far as blades go escrima seems to mostly focus on little knives rather than big machete-type knives although that also might just be a function of teaching in the US where small knives are a more likely weapon than machetes. I should clarify that what I had in mind when making this post was more something relating to really big knives (hence my mention of saber fencing, and also my reasoning that on a RPG forum there might be lots of ARMA types) instead of something relating to little knives.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 12 2007, 04:03 AM

If you want to get into fencing, I would recommend a United States Fencing Association affiliated school. Obviously, schools and instructors vary in ability, but the USFA is the premier Olympic Fencing organization in the US.

Olympic fencing does suffer from that fact that it is a sport and its rules are sometimes unrealistic, but it is one of the best ways to learn practical swordsmanship because of the often fierce competition. The point-earning nature of the competition doesn't detract from the experience nearly as much as with unarmed point competitions because if someone landed a point on you with a live blade you'd probably die.

For cutting, you'll want to use the sabre. Competitions with epee and and foil only recognize thrusts.

One of the bigger issues is the right-of-way rules, which encourage both tight defense and suicide offense. Some people believe that their encouragement of defense outweighs the encouragement of suicide offense, others do not. Though, epee competition allows both participants to score double-hits.

"Historical fencing" schools and competitions do exist. These are supposedly more accurate than Olympic fencing. They use more realistic weapons, allow strikes below the waist, and allow the use of the unarmed hand. But, I have no experience with it so I can't say for sure.

There is also "Classical Fencing" which is similar to Olympic fencing with a few minor differences.

Guazabara, a martial art derived from Taino and Jibaro military tactics, is based around the use of machetes, but I can't begin to tell you how legitimate it is because I have no experience with it.

In my opinion, the best way to train to defend against a machete is free sparing with practice blade.

Posted by: Fix-it Jun 12 2007, 04:31 AM

Don't take fencing and think it will help you survive a swordfight.

fencing= a civilized game with a lightweight, blunt metal rod. it has rules, like no kicking, punching, biting, or pulling out your sidearm and shooting your opponent.

fighting with a sword= kick-him-in-the-fork-and-cut-his-head-off. it has no such restrictions.

just as shooting skeet you learn to handle a shotgun. it certainly won't prepare you to go room-clearing with a SWAT team.

EDIT: and where, if you don't mind me asking, are you? Africa? SE Asia? Detroit?

Posted by: Demon_Bob Jun 12 2007, 04:33 AM

Arnis, Escrima, Kali same names different area of the country.

There are slight differences to the style when using different weapons: Larga Mano is based on the Kampilan sword; Espada y Daga literally means “sword and dagger; just to pick two.

Trouble is the Vietnam Tunnel Rat I studied under for a short bit was never big on names of styles. Escrima is mainly with sticks. He used something else when referring to using blades the same length as the sticks. Come to think of it he probably adapted the 'Art' a bit.

I agree if it has been over commercialized you are better off going with something else. Saber Fencing might be worthwhile. If you can find someone with military combat experience that you know and is willing to teach you that would prolly be best. Either way you will need to talk to the instructor and let him know why you want to learn.

Just out of curiosity, can you carry a gun and what are the laws concerning using it in self-defense.

As learning/fighting half-way will be as safe as walking down the middle of a busy road.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jun 12 2007, 06:44 AM

Wounded, where are you currently out of curiosity.

Posted by: pbangarth Jun 12 2007, 02:19 PM

Given their general purpose for hacking/chopping brush and wood, machetes tend to be blade-heavy, unlike swords and knives designed for fighting which are more balanced. Training with a balanced weapon may not help you that much if and when you have to swing a machete.

Both long-distance running and sprinting are good survival training techniques for defending against all kinds of edged weapons.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jun 12 2007, 03:51 PM

QUOTE (pbangarth)

Both long-distance running and sprinting are good survival training techniques for defending against all kinds of edged weapons.

Amen.

Posted by: yoippari Jun 12 2007, 04:22 PM

I would suggest checking out swordforum for machetes, dussaks, messers, and cutlasses. Dussaks are sort of the standard training sword for just about any short, single edge sword/large knife. Classical rapier fencing would be hard to find a place that teaches any practical skills whereas most other WMA schools focus on the practical non olympicized skills.

Khukuri and falcattas are similar in size but the forward curve is much more suited to chopping than cutting. Still the machete's balance might make it closer to a khukuri than a cutlass.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jun 12 2007, 10:23 PM

QUOTE (pbangarth)

Ha, you know, that's actually an excellent suggestion. I should take up track and field and a bizarre combination of sprints with hurdles strewn across the field at random intervals.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jun 12 2007, 10:27 PM

QUOTE (yoippari)

Are there any physical places where I could practice these things with good instruction? Reading on a forum is helpful for investigation, of course, but that's not going to translate into anything meaningful if it doesn't ultimately lead to my being able to practice somewhere.

Posted by: yoippari Jun 13 2007, 03:38 AM

They do exist. About half an hour north of me in Oregon City there is a gourp that trains single hand sword and two hand sword. I think scottish, english, and german styles. You haven't said where you are (that I've seen) so I don't know if there are any local groups. Start with swordforum and http://www.thearma.org/.

There might be a Tai Chi place near you that teaches Jian fighting which might translate into machete well enough. Though finding one that teaches a martial art and not just an exercise might be difficult. I know of one that is almost local to me but too far to drive regularly, so I know they are out there.

Posted by: FriendoftheDork Jun 15 2007, 09:04 AM

You're probably better off studying conflict management and simply trying to avoid fights in the first place than take up fencing. Most self-defence courses suggests running away before getting involved in a fight, especially with lethal weapons!

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jun 15 2007, 03:27 PM

QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)

Just practice on stamina and speed. So that you can run the three or four city blocks at full speed and if they're still behind you, chances are they're winded and such. Much better chances then... or keep on running.

Posted by: yoippari Jun 18 2007, 05:51 AM

In I think it's england you are required by law to try to escape an attacker before using deadly force. If you opt to use deadly force first then you are a aggressor and face legal troubles of your own. I don't think this lets them off the hook, but it does "victimize" them to an extent. I think in Tennessee if an intruder is in your home after dark it is assumed they mean you harm and you can respond with dangerous or deadly (can't remember which but they are different) force.

http://www.rctimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070615/MICRO030401/306150024/1298/MTCN0301

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/10/31/do3102.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2004/10/31/ixop.html

I don't trust most journalism these days but these do support a few legal discussions I've had where people searched more than one page of google results.

I'm curious. Where are you that people are carrying around machetes in a jungle environment.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jun 18 2007, 06:12 AM

I believe that I've PMed you. Did you get a PM from me?

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 18 2007, 06:12 AM

One would assume that if the guy is close enough to chop you with a machete then you can't just turn and run without inviting an attack of opportunity. Nothing is quite as annoying as getting your spine severed at the neck because you decided to run from a machete fight without using a proper tactical retreat.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jun 18 2007, 06:30 AM

I'd recommend buying the local cops a few drinks and asking them. After all, they must deal with betel-nut chewing machete wielding drunks on a regular basis, no?

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jun 18 2007, 09:24 PM

QUOTE (Crusher Bob)

I'd recommend buying the local cops a few drinks and asking them. After all, they must deal with betel-nut chewing machete wielding drunks on a regular basis, no?

How to put this? Sometimes the cops are not very professional in their behavior. Their main advantage over machete dudes is the fact they carry sidearms whereas otherwise handguns are extremely rare. I believe that such a conference would be a lot less useful than a similar conference in the US would be.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jun 19 2007, 06:32 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 18 2007, 01:12 AM)

One would assume that if the guy is close enough to cop you with a machete then you can't just turn and run without inviting an attack of opportunity. Nothing is quite as annoying as getting your spine severed at the neck because you decided to run from a machete fight without using a proper tactical retreat.

That's why you need to take the improved initiative feat so that it'll improve your chances of going before their turn and then do the withdraw maneuver that allows you to get out without invoking an attack of opportunity. Though, paying a few thousand gold for some boots of side stepping will help to, just remember to activate them.

Sorry, I just couldn't help it when you said attack of opportunity, I just thought of dnd.