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Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jul 19 2007, 02:13 AM

So, I went ahead and downloaded the extremely detailed character generator-cum-game version of Twilight 2000 as abandonware from Underdogs. Last night, I fired it up without reading the manual and chargen was so intensely detailed that felt like I could trip and hurt myself in a paroxysm of delight. The degree of detail that the game gives to weapons, career paths, nationalities and language (holy crap, you can even apparently make a character whose native language is Gaelic) made me so delighted. I haven't seen anything this cool since 1st edition D&D. But it's also modernistic and tactical with guns and such, which appeals to me as well. Finally, it's post apocalyptic, which is of course pretty 80s/early 90s, so please pass me the Italian-manufactured 9mm sidearm.

Today, I went ahead and downloaded the manual, and as I confirmed the complexity of the rules (AND the inherent awesomeness of a pen and paper chargen program cum video game which you don't even get anymore with all these d20 knockoff games) and the loving detail to the pen and paper rules (not like in Knights of the Old Republic where the d20 love was even simplified to some degree) I decided that there was clearly no greater computer RPG rules-wise that I have seen in an extremely long time.

Now, I feel the stabbing of a bitter regret. That I did not actually ever play Twilight 2000 back when people actually played it/heard of it/didn't bring up pages of Twilight Princess crap when trying to Google the manual. That I will, in all probability, NEVER get to play it because nowadays you're not allowed to have complicated and detailed rules and rollplaying has become the enemy.

Sniffle.

Posted by: Fortune Jul 19 2007, 03:32 AM

When was it made? What OS is it designed to run on? Couldn't you find a copy on E-Bay or something?

Oh, and a linky to the Character Generator (and Manual) would be cool.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jul 19 2007, 04:54 AM

Ah, thought you were talking about the tabletop version at first.
They're coming with a new edition of the game called Twilight 2013. This company http://www.93gamesstudio.com/ acquired the license to make it.

Posted by: Fortune Jul 19 2007, 09:43 AM

Posted by: nezumi Jul 19 2007, 11:21 AM

If you acquired the book 'on the cheap', especially if the company is defunct, you could possibly distribute it and start such a game, *cough cough*. It's not like there's a serious want of roleplayers who like complicated rulesets hanging around DS.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jul 19 2007, 10:58 PM

Fortune: The game was designed for DOS and I actually found it on Underdogs. However, even using DOSbox, I appear to be getting a small but crucial interface problem which may prevent me from being able to complete the game...


PBTHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHT: Considering the game seems to adhere like damp cotton briefs to the tabletop rules I'm sort of talking about both. I mean, I'm sure the rules are even better when you have the flexibility of flesh and blood as well.


Nezumi: Not a bad idea. Maybe I'll look into that when I get back to the US. I heard that the 2013 ruleset had a revised storyline to make it less 80s-tastic (i.e., nuclear war, no Yeltsin) but be that as it may I suppose we could always use the old backstory if we wanted to. Kind of like how someone might use the 1st and 2nd edition SR backstory for more of a Japanese corporate domination feel with the 3rd edition rules if they wanted to have that flavor of game.

EDIT: It says that it's still under development anyway. :/ Maybe it's possible to find the original ruleset, anyway, which is more likely to have glorious tables of enormity.

Posted by: Fortune Jul 20 2007, 02:45 AM

Ah.

Well, at least you inspired me to go and find the RPG books (or at least try). Funny ... I've seen that game around quite a bit in the past, but never actually played, or even read the books (other than a quick glance).

Posted by: Counter Weight Mar 12 2008, 07:26 PM

We're thinking about using the Twilight 2000 setting, or at least parts of it, in a D20 Modern game we'll be running in real life. Looks to be fun, but not sure when we'll get it off of the ground.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 12 2008, 10:28 PM

Why not use the rules? I'm pretty sure that Twilight > D20 modern when it comes to realistic firefights.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Mar 12 2008, 10:37 PM

Maybe they wanted to add in magic/supernatural elements into their game?

Posted by: Counter Weight Mar 12 2008, 11:18 PM

Because I don't have them, but I do have D20 Modern. Add in that my players know how to play D20 Modern, and don't know how to play Twilight 2000 (And have shown little interest in learning yet another system) and the choice becomes clear and easy for me.



Realistic firefights is the absolute dead last reason I'd choose any system. In fact it's generally not even a consideration what so ever. We do a pretty good job of hacking away gratuitous rules, so any system is easily made as "realistic" as we need it to be for us to have fun.

If I wanted strict realism and firearms I'd just stay at work, on the range. (Most of my group is comprised of either people who are in the field of Law Enforcement, many ex Military like myself.) Luckily we find other things in the game fun too.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 12 2008, 11:35 PM

Lots of people (but not all of them) who were in the military or are on the SWAT team or what have you, when I talk about video games, say that they're not interested in them because they already do the real thing. But the way I see it, it's not about a vicarious experience. Rather, it's about the art and science of simulationism. It's about having fun by trying to mathematically model very complex real world situations as best as possible in the context of gaming. You'll never get a totally realistic firefight simulator in terms of a computer game or RPG but the question is how close can we get while still being elegant? Trying to solve that question takes years of attention and thought.

Posted by: Counter Weight Mar 12 2008, 11:38 PM

And appeals absolutely zero to me and my group, which is why we won't be trying it. But if it is fun for you, and your group who am I to stand in your way? I always say stick with what you like.

Posted by: Wesley Street Mar 13 2008, 01:46 PM

2300AD which takes place in the future of the Twilight 2000 world was the very first RPG I ever picked up. It puts to detailed hard science-fiction what Twilight 2000 does to post-apocalyptic warfare. Imagine a future where the French rather than the Anglophones, Chinese or Japanese were the dominate human culture. Character generation was an intense and detailed process with you picking body type (endomorph, ecotmorph, mesomorph), nationality, career (Troubleshooter, Journalist, Corporate Man, every type of warrior be it on land, sea, air or space, Prospector, Texas Ranger, Scientist, etc.), specialties, gear, etc. The aliens, such as the Kafer, were very well thought out and the box set came with a huge map of explored space along with star names and stutterwarp routes. I miss that game and wish I'd never sold it.

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Mar 13 2008, 03:55 PM

The world didn't end in the 80s, Wounded Ronin. The world began in the 80s.

Posted by: Ed_209a Mar 13 2008, 06:57 PM

I would recommend using SR4 in the Twilight 2000 setting.

Shadowrun is designed around cinematic stories of survival starring highly trained people running around with guns and talking people out of stuff.

Twilight 2000 is designed around gritty stories of survival starring highly trained people running around with guns and talking people out of stuff.

Once the cybernetics, magic, and whizbang tech is gone, Shadowrun turns gritty _quickly_.

You could look at it like the entire world is like the Barrens.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 13 2008, 06:59 PM

The cover art from Twilight 2000 is awesome. Look at everyones' hair.

Posted by: Earlydawn Mar 17 2008, 04:22 PM

So, is Version 2.2 of the Twilight 2000 tabletop worth shelling out the cash for? How detailed is detailed? Examples are appreciated.

Posted by: WhiteWolf Mar 18 2008, 02:22 PM

T2K was a great game to play. Back in the late 80s and early 90s a group of us would play some D&D, Traveller (by far the best SciFi game), Twilight 2000 (T2K), and Shadowrun.

One of the things I really liked about T2K was the mind set. The whole game was about survival. Where were you going to get your next meal from, do you have enough gas, ammo, water, etc. The game was also very unforgiving and we had a very good GM, so you really had to be on your toes and work as a team. Each player would have a second character rolled up for each day we would play.

If you ever get a chance to play the game (old version) I would recommend it.

edit: Mongoose Publishing is bring back the old school Traveller rules! For those of you interested here is the link http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=51

Posted by: AJCarrington Mar 21 2008, 04:03 PM

There is a new version of Twilight 2000 coming out (in development):

http://www.93gamesstudio.com/twilight2013/

AJC

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 21 2008, 05:01 PM

The 80s hair guys with caseless rifles aren't on the cover.

Posted by: Wesley Street Mar 21 2008, 05:47 PM

Cheer up... maybe they'll have feathered hair and leg warmers as optional equipment in a future supplement.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Mar 21 2008, 07:16 PM

Uh, yeah, see post number 3 back in July 2007.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Mar 21 2008, 07:16 PM

stupid double post. ugh.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 21 2008, 07:32 PM

It raises your to-hits by 10% if you're using an OICW modified to accept caseless ammunition and re-accessorized with an underbarrel keytar!

Posted by: Kentares Mar 21 2008, 08:49 PM

I GM'ed Twilight 2000 2.2 for several sessions (didnt finished the campaign I planned) before Shadowrun (2nd edition) and the players who liked Mad Max style of games/movies loved that game. It was very fun but some rules needed some tweaking IIRC.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Mar 22 2008, 05:00 PM

We played it once or twice, when it first came out when you were still in 'Europe" and while were were interested in it, medical really was limited. Once you got wounded, you were pretty well screwed. true for real life but sucky for a game.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 22 2008, 08:43 PM

My approach in such a situation as a GM would be to have everyone make a 6 pack of characters so if someone is crippled or killed it's not a problem to keep playing.

Posted by: Spike Apr 2 2008, 04:38 PM

I used to play this ages ago, and I think I had a copy of the game (though, unlike you I couldn't get out of my base to do anything....) on the computer.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I've played every edition of Twilight2000 (and Megatraveller and Dark Conspiracies...all the same basic system), and actually managed to get another hardback rulebook for nostalgia purposes.

One thing I recall, though at least part of the 'bad memory' comes from the asstastic GM was that while shooting people was brutally lethal (though I think at least one edition gave the PC's something like double the hp/health of most NPC's...) was that melee combat was horribly gimped in the damage department. I had a special forces guy that tried to 'stealth kill' a machine gun nest/ambush with a machete. After successfully whacking the one guy five or six times (and getting shot repeatedly in the process) I finally gave up and shot him back.

The one issue I've had over and over again with the GDW system is that you pretty much have to play 'old dudes'. Obviously this was more of an issue when I was a teenager, but even now I'm less than happy that a game tells me how old I have to be to be 'x' competent. Given the generally low skill totals and four year career blocks... (one of the first edition upgrades changed it from four skill points per career to six...)

Posted by: Snow_Fox Apr 15 2008, 02:46 AM

yeah, I had that trouble with the original Traveller, I gotta be how old to have decent skills?

Posted by: Synner667 Apr 15 2008, 07:15 AM

In Traveller, even skill:1 was good - skill:3 would be very good, I've never seen anyone with skill:5

Aeon/White Wolf did something similar, making the skill progression almost logarithmic.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 15 2008, 05:31 PM

What I never liked about t2k (we played 2nd edition) was that character generation was mostly roll based and you could screw a perfectly fine character by just rolling a 1 for initiative but dice based char gen was the standard during that time. The setting is great though and combat rules are imo decent and quick enough to play though the system is pretty lethal after all (not the direct combat as npcs generally die pretty quick but the infections following a wound eventually) which i liked to emphasize the constant threat the players are experiencing as well as stopping too triggerhappy playing styles.

They sell the pdf at drivethrurpg btw and afaik 2.2 is worse then 2.0 so get this edition if you want it (it's cheaper also )

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Nov 26 2008, 05:46 PM

Well, the Twilight 2013 pdf version is out now.

Posted by: Fortune Nov 26 2008, 07:20 PM

Is the new version any good?

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Nov 26 2008, 08:54 PM

I just got it last night so I'm still going over the file and I've never played the original one also so I can't compare. It does have an interesting initiative/action system that uses/calls stuff ticks, ala ticks in a clock as it counts the seconds. The weapons though, they go by bullet for damage which is good. The ranges for hitting are target is actually nice also. The hit location you roll two d6, each d6 are different colours so you get the numbers and look at the chart, I think you need to roll a 1 on one dice and a 4 on another to get that head shot. Armour is important in this game especially where you're wearing the armour, such as a standard helmet has 2 armour value but only covers 50% of the head.
The first part of the book covers how the game world diverges from the real world in 2007. One thing that's the similar for 2008... the democrats have a majority in both houses and wins the presidency. Though the president is a guv'ner from the SW. heh. Anyway, since it diverges it doesn't have stuff like say the mortgage crisis/credit crisis that happened in 2008. In the end though, nukes are thrown, forces are stalemated, resources are depleted, food shortages abound, the US is broken up with conflicting factions such as CIVGOV's (more than one) and MILGOV, and the president tells everyone good luck in his farewell speech.

Posted by: Arcblood Dec 13 2008, 11:55 AM

I ve played twilight 2000 from first print and shadowrun from first print. Both games pretty much destroyed the montyhall factor learned from D&D. Twilight really forces people to work out the short and long term tactics and logistics for team work.
I ususally had to recreate characters every third session due to combat effects. At the time two players let thier hatred for each other bleed into the game cause of previous history from other games( AA, D&D, Battletech, warhammer 40k) Hell a couple of us got really good at using our characters in game skills to provoke them.
The old game just like the new game basically forces teamwork on you if you want to survive. This game really helped our old core group evolve into roleplayers and help me become the G.O.D. of shadowrun for 5 straight years of real time campaign.
Twilight really is fun when you can bring in real life experiences to balance the games skill set. This game is really plausible cause our civilization is really only one generation from the darkages. WHen your group has one army, one gun nut, two farm kids, 1st generation korean, and one machinist. You can really demonstrate what you can a=team together given the time and raw parts. hell screw waterboarding we used an arcwelder and alcohol for our info gathering.
Remember Kerosine, gasoline, detergent and magnesium ribbon makes for a nice thermite package.

Posted by: Earlydawn Jan 4 2009, 05:48 AM

Well, I've been pouring over Twilight 2013 for a month or so, now, and I have to say I absolutely love it. Haven't ran a game with it just yet, but its a solid game for anybody looking for a more simulation-y pen 'n paper. Character creation is honestly as much fun as playing the game seems to be, and they did a great job of making sure that any character concept is both balanced yet fun to play.

Anybody who likes accuracy, realism, and deep roleplaying. Ronin, for example, would probably love it, based on seeing his earlier work on weapon realism in Shadowrun. Check it out!

Posted by: ravensmuse Jan 5 2009, 02:02 PM

Fun story: I got to play T2K at Gencon 2007, run by a friend of my girlfriend's.

The plot was that there was a tanker bearing nuclear material sitting in a mercenary compound and we had to go in and destroy it. The original idea (the one the GM had) was that we'd sneak in and blow the material up, thus rendering it unusable. Us being PCs though, we had another idea.

I forgot what I and the other players were doing (I think we ended up convincing the merc group that we were recruits and had some guys giving us a tour around the compound) while my girlfriend seduced the guy with the keys into a bathroom, where she promptly shanked him, stole his clothes, took the keys, and while we were distracting everyone, drove the tanker out of the base.

Did I mention we were all Russian? It was a blast.

Posted by: Wesley Street Jan 5 2009, 05:12 PM

Cool! Would you mind sharing your thoughts on how character creation works? Is it chart based, random die-roll, or points system-based? As a player of GDW's Twilight:2000 "canon sequel" 2300AD, this game interests me.


I'm a big fan of the "seduce 'n shank" school of infiltration. Well done.

Posted by: ravensmuse Jan 6 2009, 12:32 PM

Congratulate her, not me. We had no idea what she was up to until she said: "I shank him and take his keys and clothes."

This is the same girl that decided that (in Shadowrun) after having pushed the local mob boss's grandma into oncoming traffic, that she'd finish the woman off, screwed that up, and took an orbital out to Tokyo where she went on to take on a job assassinating a fashion model while they were on the runway.

On this note, I think I should run more solo stuff for her.

Posted by: Earlydawn Jan 8 2009, 02:46 AM

You essentially start your character's life from the age of 18 (No matter how long before 2013 that is), and then run him through "phases". Phases determine what skills are trainable and what attributes are boostable. Paths are divided pretty evenly between civie and military options. Some paths also let (or require) you roll on a "Hazardous Duty" table that can either help you or hurt you.

Some other interesting elements of the skill system; degrees (the knowledge skill equivalent) actually add to rolls that are relevant to the skill you're using, so it's viable to build an academic or older and wiser character. Skills also roll against different stats depending on the context. Longarms, for example, lets you attack by rolling against Coordination, but using your longarms skill to maintain your M4 is an element of cognition instead (the INT stat). It's a great system if you like realism - min/maxing isn't as disruptive to the game.

Posted by: Wesley Street Jan 8 2009, 03:30 PM

Ah, it sounds like the new developers have taken the next logical step with the older GDW system. 2300AD character creation works in a similar fashion but it's a little more "old school" and simplistic. Very cool, I'll need to check this new version of Twilight out.