Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ General Gaming _ I realized I'm too anal retentive to enjoy CRPGs

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Nov 1 2007, 02:39 AM

I finally realized that I'm too anal retentive to enjoy most computer RPGs, such as Ultima.

Although I typically like the ideas behind a well-developed computer RPG I always am afraid when I'm playing that I'm not being optimal in terms of statistics. I always end up downloading a walkthrough after playing for a day or two and then I freak out when I see that I haven't been very efficient. I end up reading the entire walkthrough and getting stressed out trying to mentally plan out each step the walkthrough tells me to do and then I stop playing the game.

That's what happened to me with that Raymond Feist Sierra RPG, Betrayal At Krondor. It got to the point that I was on Chapter 3 and my 3 party members all had the best armor and weapons in the game even though it was still the beginning of the game. They had most of the good spells, tons of money, because I kept walking around in circles trying really hard to not miss a single bonus. I was reading an extensive walkthrough on the internet and was sweating over missing one or two quests that may have bugged out. Then when I didn't want to start over and spend all those hours again getting the best possible equipment on the possibility that a couple sidequests might have bugged I stopped playing.

That also happend with Ultima Worlds of Adventure: Martian Dreams just now. Somehow my main character seems to have misplaced one of his guns (I have no idea how) and the thought of being sub-optimal made me stop alltogether since I also don't want to take the time to start over and invest all that time in going around killing things again.

On the other hand, "easy" RPGs where they are made to be beaten and are almost impossible to screw up, such as Knights Of The Old Republic, I actually play and enjoy because I know I don't have to play cautiously and just relax and don't think about it when things fail to be totally optimal. The same sort of dynamic applies to things like the old Final Fantasy titles and so forth.

I just noticed this now after years of playing games. It's funny that I feel as though I'm pretty relaxed about my performance in tabletop RPGs like Shadowrun, and I don't necessarily super munchkin or anything, but for statistically difficult CRPGs I mentally implode given a couple weeks.

Posted by: Simon May Nov 1 2007, 02:59 AM

Try playing the two most recent Elder Scrolls games. You'll hate it simply because every choice you make denies you another path as it opens up the one you're on. So much to do. So many ways to play... it's daunting.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Nov 1 2007, 06:49 AM

Although I haven't played Morrowind or its sequel it seems like they're compilcated and detailed enough to stress me out.

I actually liked Daggerfall, though, just because it was impossible to screw up in any meaningful way and I could just play in a relaxed and glib manner.

Posted by: hyzmarca Nov 1 2007, 07:07 AM

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

I don't know about Oblivion, but in Morrowind the plot really doesn't matter. The last time I played I completly screwed up the game by firing an area-effect arrow in a crowded fort and making some very important NPCs hostile, and it just didn't matter. I killed them all, broke the main quest, but then I just added some fun mods, did a little bit of moding myself, and made my own crazy plot. It was fun.

I've also got a great many screenshots of the female character I was playing running around topless (Better Bodies mod gives her breastesses) wearing an ugly stone full-face-covering helmet and doing sexually perverse things with Dagoth Ur.

Posted by: Aku Nov 1 2007, 01:04 PM

oblivions plot really doesnt matter either, and i dont know about many doors being closed in it.. im pretty sure you can do most of the quests without a problem.. some you may need to do in a certain order (because you may tick one character off you need in another, or kill him) but for the most part they werent interconnected...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 1 2007, 01:49 PM

Also remember to do the hard ones before you gain any levels.

~J

Posted by: Kool Kat Nov 8 2007, 06:03 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Nov 1 2007, 08:49 AM)

Also remember to do the hard ones before you gain any levels.

~J

Amen to that... @_@ I have started multiple characters to explore the different facets of Oblivion becuase I didn't want one charater that could DO ALL-BE ALL. I did the assault on Kvatch at lvl 4 with my mage and owned. I did Kvatch with my lvl 12 Samurai and it was a BITCH. @_@ The scaling system is cool but some quests are indeed nearly impossible to beat if you start on them late in the game.

Still the most bad ass RPG I've played though.

Posted by: nezumi Nov 8 2007, 06:52 PM

I have the same problem, especially since I can't look at walkthroughs at work Eventually what I settled on when I got to WRs spot (invested too much time in a game to start over, but clearly my character is sub-optimal) is I whip out the saved game editor. I do it 'fairly' - I only increase a point in one place if I decrease it in another, as though I had initially spent my points properly. For missed quests, I just drink until I forget about them

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Nov 8 2007, 08:52 PM

QUOTE (Kool Kat)

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Nov 1 2007, 08:49 AM)

Also remember to do the hard ones before you gain any levels.

~J

Oblivion's difficulty scaling makes me head explode. It seems to go against every principle of classic role playing games. I mean, the 1st edition modules we all dream about every night while weeping that they're no longer in print such as "Chateau D'Amberville" didn't have five entries for each encounter to edit them based on party level. It just clearly said "For Character Levels X-Y". If your character wasn't the right level you needed a montage.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Nov 8 2007, 10:22 PM

If the encounters automatically scale to your level, doesn't that defeat the purpose of leveling up?

Posted by: hyzmarca Nov 8 2007, 11:13 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

If the encounters automatically scale to your level, doesn't that defeat the purpose of leveling up?

Nope, because equipment also scales to your level. Everything is in leveled lists. If you are at level 1, that crate on the side of the road will contain a sheet of paper. If you are at level 27 it'll contain an enchanted Daedric Daikatana. But its contents are set when you look in it. This even extends to shops.

So you must choose between easy missions and crappy equipment or absurdly difficult missions and a decent equipment.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 9 2007, 01:17 AM

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Nov 8 2007, 03:52 PM)

If your character wasn't the right level you needed a montage.

Involving vampire trainers if you're above the level range.

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

If the encounters automatically scale to your level, doesn't that defeat the purpose of leveling up?

Yes.

~J

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Nov 9 2007, 01:23 AM

The game is still pretty easy.

Check out the speedruns. I've never seen anything as cool ever!

Posted by: Blade Nov 9 2007, 10:16 AM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

If the encounters automatically scale to your level, doesn't that defeat the purpose of leveling up?

Reminds me of 'Final Liberation'. In the campaign there was a map with a lot of sectors to free, some of them giving you access to better unit. So the idea was to first free all sectors then attack the enemy HQ with the best units. But the opposing army was always scaled to match your army.

Sometimes it could matter, for example when you only had weak infantry and faced flying units, you were clearly outmatched. But most of the missions could be done quite easily with just a few units. So you could ignore most sectors, free the sector that gave you access to the strongest unit and then send it alone against small armies that couldn't match his power all the way to the enemy HQ.

Back on topic I don't have such problems with CRPG. I always build sub-optimal "face" characters (a la bards in D&D) and then use strange techniques and AI abuse to get out of the problems it gives me.
The problem I have is that I often feel too limited. Fallout 1&2 were ok but in Morrowind/Oblivion, the quest are too linear and railroaded compared to the possibilities it seems you could have.
It's ok for me to be restricted in games which offer a linear story (the Ultima series come to mind: You're the Avatar, you're supposed to do the Avatar's job (or maybe the baker job)) but I don't like it in games where I'm supposed to do what I want.

That's why I'm curious about Frontier's "The Outsider" which is supposed to offer a wide choice of actions with proper non-scripted reactions.

Posted by: Kool Kat Nov 9 2007, 01:56 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Nov 8 2007, 05:22 PM)

If the encounters automatically scale to your level, doesn't that defeat the purpose of leveling up?

Well it doesn't necessarily scale the MONSTER, it replaces it with something else.

So if you go into the Cave of Unending Death at lvl 2, you'll have Goblins and Imps on your butt.

You go in at Lvl 20. SATAN himself will be there instead.

It's a good system. It guarantee's a challenging fight each encounter instead of just mowing through a pile of 50 goblins with your uber sword of doom.

Just.. sometimes.. the monster it chooses to spawn based on your level is more MACHO than you and that's when it's the suck.

Posted by: nezumi Nov 9 2007, 02:33 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Nov 8 2007, 05:22 PM)

If the encounters automatically scale to your level, doesn't that defeat the purpose of leveling up?

Shroedinger's set of full plate?

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Nov 10 2007, 09:36 PM

QUOTE (Blade)

Sometimes it could matter, for example when you only had weak infantry and faced flying units, you were clearly outmatched. But most of the missions could be done quite easily with just a few units. So you could ignore most sectors, free the sector that gave you access to the strongest unit and then send it alone against small armies that couldn't match his power all the way to the enemy HQ.

That's actually an issue with Sir Tech's Jagged Alliance 2. The equipment that the enemies spawn with depends on game "progress", a variable which is computed from a weighted formula that attaches 1/4 weight to # of soldiers killed, 1/4 weight to something I forgot, and 1/2 weight to cities taken. This means that if you just rush the capital in the beginning of the game all the enemies have pistols and it's actually really easy compared to going there later. People have beaten JA2 with one IMP character going all alone. Rambo time!

JA2 really had problems with the internal tweaking. It seems every time they tried to cheat or tweak they made the game worse, like with the Day 1 Rambo issue. They also gave enemy soldiers to-hit bonuses and enhanced resistance to stun damage which was frustrating and enraging and made gameplay seem really difficult in the beginning of the game when your guys all mostly had pistols and everyone was grenade bait.