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Posted by: swirler Apr 30 2008, 08:57 PM

http://www.bttfhillvalley.co.uk/ GTA3 Vice City with a Back to the Future Mod
that is nuts

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 1 2008, 04:21 PM

I wish that I too were smart enough to mod software like that.

Posted by: Blade May 1 2008, 05:20 PM

You don't need to be smart... at least for most games. What you need most is time and in some cases talent (or a good team).

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 1 2008, 05:24 PM

Eh, I've been trying on and off to make nice maps using Unreal97 for Deus Ex, but I just can't do a good job. When I look at Liberty Island my head explodes from the complexity.

Posted by: CanRay May 1 2008, 05:47 PM

Can't wait to see what the Modders go with GTA IV!

Posted by: Blade May 1 2008, 09:11 PM

Well UnrealEd isn't that difficult to use, once you got the basics right.
Sure looking at a finished map is likely to cause head explodeness, but it's because you're not familiar with it. I think you can compare that to a complex investigation RPG scenario: for the GM everything is perfectly clear since he created everything and has seen the whole plot grow. Furthermore, the scenario will be adapted to his mindset, things will go logically according to him. But someone else will need to read the plot several times and think about it for a few minutes before being able to grasp it all.
As far as map-making is concerned there's also the fact that you'll concentrate on each element one after another. For example when setting up triggers in UnrealEd (for example : when player gets here, do this there), you'll focus on each trigger, so you won't have any trouble creating them all. You'll also assign name to them to be able to find them when needed. Once all triggers are in place, the map will be covered with lines linking the triggers to the place or object they affect. Someone opening the map for the first time won't be able to understand anything, but the mapmaker will be able to find what he's looking for.

What you really need is time (and patience) to learn how to use the tool then time to create everything, down to the smallest detail. The good thing when working with that generation of games is that you don't need too much "talent": you don't need to be an artist to create maps/models/textures with a decent look.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 1 2008, 09:41 PM

That's a very warm and encouraging thing to say. Thank you very much. Maybe I'll keep on hacking with the Unreal editor when I have the time.

I also agree that nowadays games are in some ways burdened by higher graphical requirements. Someone like Sid Meier wouldn't be able to take a couple friends and code up something like Covert Action today because even if the concepts and gameplay were innovative and solid the grahpics alone would just not be doable.

Posted by: Blade May 2 2008, 09:06 AM

Heh, Covert Action was great! I especially loved the random international threat generator!

Actually, some people still manage to create game on their own, or with small teams. The graphics might not have the wow factor of most recent games (http://www.infinity-universe.com/Infinity/index.php), but the game can be really good and innovative. Just look http://www.tigsource.com/ or http://www.indiegames.com/blog/ to get an idea of what I'm talking about. For example, Mount&Blade, which is really good, even in terms of graphics, was created by a small team (they're now a bit more, but it started with 3 or 4 people and was already awesome back then).
But still it sure takes more skill to do a high-poly model than to draw a simple 8*8 sprite.

Anyway, if you want to do something with Deus Ex and need some Unreal Scripting done, I can be convinced to give you a hand.

Posted by: Ed_209a May 2 2008, 01:15 PM

Seconded.

A current version would be like a mix of Splinter Cell (for the sneaky-peeky/shooty-looty side) and Spycraft: The Great Game (for the thinky-techy side)

Two great games that game great together.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 2 2008, 05:26 PM

Well, for me, one aspect that I appreciated about Covert Action besides for what you guys have already mentioned is also the 80s clothing and references (i.e. some of the terrorist organizations were bigger in the 80s than now, the uzi is the quintessential 80s SMG), which of course at the time was totally organic because those things were still fashionable. Definitely all in all Covert Action is one of the best games in a neat elegant package I've ever seen. I suppose there'd be room for modern revision, too, as in retrospect it seems like storming the bad guys' offices is too easy and too powerful. Sid Meier I suspect gave it far and away the best potential rewards and tried to balance it with severe penalties in terms of time loss if you were captured or if you were hit, but the problem was that as a player I could generally pull it off without getting hit and it was possible to get all the clues you needed to solve the whole case from a single visit to the appropriate organization.

If I were to design a modern revision, I'd make assaulting offices a bit more complex and have a few more realistic issues to balance out how powerful it is.

Nowadays it would be possible to make assaulting more realistic since we've got all these military sim games which have made basic room clearing procedures familiar to your typical gamer, and likewise the AI could be made more dangerous and difficult to deal with. Raids could be more difficult to pull off because of a time limit on the grounds that when you bust into someone's apartment and begin mowing down dozens of people with an uzi the local police will respond, so that the player doesn't have time to check each and every file cabinet. Finally, there could be a Diplomatic Capital talley where the player can only perform so many raids before foreign governments get furious with the US government and create an international incident. Maybe the amount of Diplomatic Capital lost would be less if the player makes a clean getaway, but it would be huge if the player doesn't make it out within the time limit and ends up getting arrested by the local police. Maybe there'd be a Diplomatic Capital penalty for each foreign national killed on such a raid. Finally, maybe if the player creates too many international incidents student protestors picket the CIA office in Washington going on about the School of the Americas or some such and Max Remington is fired for being a liability.



Blade, thank you for your extremely kind offer to help me set up some Deus Ex scenarios. Creating such a scenario is something I've thought of doing on and off for a long time, so who knows, maybe we'll have the chance to work together in the future. After I get competent, I mean. Heh.