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Posted by: Synner667 Aug 4 2008, 11:49 PM

I've been enjoying RPGs as a Player and a Ref for 20+ years and I've been involved with many RPGs.

I've still got almost all the RPGs I've bought over the years [and bizarrely, my house has much less room than I remember it to have - connected ??]...
...And sometimes I'll flick one open and have a read.

And often find myself engrossed in RPG books from anything upto 20 years ago...
...Sometimes reading rules and thinking of new ways to apply those rules in a different way, and sometimes just remembering a time when those rules or sourcebook were used.

Anyone else re-visit old rules and/or sourcebooks and using them again ??
Do they seem archaic, or fresh and usable ??
Do you think differently about them, than you did in the past ??

Just thought I'd ask...

Posted by: Dumori Aug 5 2008, 12:26 AM

I've found old RPGs make you shake your head at how stupid some parts are or you're amazed why that idea never caught on.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Aug 5 2008, 02:08 AM

I'm a big nostalgia junkie. I love re-reading old Dragon magazines, not necessarily for game info, but just for the sheer pleasure of it. The old AD&D stuff has that certain something which a lot of newer RPGs seem to lack, at least from my point of view. But I suppose every generation feels that way, whether it be about RPGs, movies, music, etc. I was toying around with the idea of playing old AD&D modules using Basic rules. However, I am not at all familiar with Basic D&D, so I don't know how feasable this would be. I got the idea after speaking with a bunch of old gamers; they raved about how Basic had the terrific fantasy "feel" of Advanced, but without all the detritus (as they put it).

Posted by: shadowfire Aug 5 2008, 03:54 PM

i have looked at some of the older rpg and said to myself, " why is this not around anymore"?

For instance, Space: 1889 by GDW. One of the better Steampunk games out there (even beating the Gurps steampunk source book) and it was created back in the early years of role playing. (late 70's early 80's).
Another game i always wanted to try was the one that got Raymond E fiest Started writing in the world of Midkemia; By midkemia press.

Posted by: the_dunner Aug 5 2008, 04:46 PM

Space: 1889 is http://www.heliograph.com/ I know a lot of there books are just recompilations of original GDW books, but I'm under the impression that they're also producing new material.

A few of my old favorites, that I miss are Torg (which is tied in with the whole WEG mess), Dark Conspiracy (which has been rumored to have a revised edition in progress for years), and Chill (also rumored to have a revision in the works for years).

To me, it's almost equally amazing which games have survived for 15+ years.

Posted by: Synner667 Aug 5 2008, 05:07 PM

Yah...
...Chill and Dark Conspiracy are both due "sometime soon".

Torg has been repackaged as Torg v1.5...
...With Torg v2.0 late in its delivery.

Looking at them, I do find it interesting that they were ahead of their time, and suffered for it [same with Space:1889].

Tho, with GDW dying as a company, not much could have been done.

I imagine the licences are owned, with people waiting for the right time to try and re-publish material...
...And I guess they could use lulu.com for printing and distribution [I think RedBrick, the people with EarthDawn, do it this way].

Posted by: revaddict Aug 5 2008, 05:49 PM

Hey, Synner,

It's good to see some other old-timers around here! (I've been a gamer and ref for about 27 years now.)

I know what you mean about digging through your old games. I've gotten rid of some of mine in recent years, but it's amazing how long I held on to them. And there are some I just can't part with.

My AD&D books just make me chuckle. I can't believe I once thought that was the greatest game ever known to mankind. A few years ago a friend of mine tried running a game using those old rules. I found that AD&D is, for me, kind of like tic-tac-toe--it's fun when you're young and it's brand new, but after moving on to more sophisticated games, why go back to it?

The biggest laugh I get out of the AD&D books is that there's a random table for EVERYTHING. It's interesting to see how rulebooks years ago used to hold the ref's hand constantly, whereas today there are fewer provisions for random events/items/monsters/treasure.

Still, I can't help but feel a streak of nostalgia as I dust off those old games. (I'm planning to run a game of Twilight: 2000 in the summer of 2010 for all of my old gaming buddies.)

Great topic, by the way!

Paul

Posted by: VagabondStar Aug 5 2008, 05:53 PM

http://www.youtube.com/user/pugknowspro


This is kind of neat. most of the reviews are of newer games - but there are some reissued and rehashed games on there, too.

Posted by: Caine Hazen Aug 5 2008, 07:03 PM

mmmm... I need to get a group to do Amber again. I miss the Amber days of college

Posted by: Adarael Aug 6 2008, 06:25 AM

Skyrealms of Jorune. A wonderfully atmospheric, incredibly detailed, imaginative, lovely game with a ruleset that could politely be described as "horribly schizophrenic."

On the plus side, it's really easy to convert to the Earthdawn system!

Posted by: tete Aug 14 2008, 06:56 PM

Games I started with (I had played RPGs before but the mid 90s was when it became a hobby)

AD&D 2nd Edition, Traveller: The New Era, Dark Conspiracy, Shadowrun 2e, and GURPS 2e

later in college I would pick up Dark Ages Vampire, SLA Industries, Deadlands and D&D 3.0

Posted by: Alex Aug 15 2008, 05:09 AM

I still fondly remember the first RPG I ever played. It was a "choose-your-own-path" book based on Forgotten Realms. It had two bookmarks (character sheets), an interesting story (to a 14 years old anyway) and the corner of the pages had a picture of a d12. (You "rolled" the die by flipping through the pages.) It got me started in RPGs.

My favorite old game was probably AD&D since we played with a huge group in college.

And then my friends introduced me to the awesome that was SR2.

Posted by: paws2sky Aug 15 2008, 12:58 PM

I was digging through my old gaming books last night (looking for a curiously MIA M&M sourcebook) and I came across Beyond The Supernatural by Palladium. BTS was a modern day occult horror RPG. Interestingly, its the same world that Rifts Earth would become. One of the first RPGs I ever bought too. I didn't get to GM it very often, but I had a ball making characters and brainstorming adventures. I even found some of my old characters tucked in the book. Terrible system. Fun setting.

-paws

Posted by: deek Aug 15 2008, 01:32 PM

I'm trying to remember an old Palladium (I think) game I had. It was only one book, but the setting was King Arthur's Camelot. I remember reading through it and loving it, but misplaced it after a few weeks and could never find it or a copy to re-purchase...

It was a fairly thick book, too, 350+ pages, I think. Anybody know it?

Posted by: tete Aug 15 2008, 03:13 PM

Pendragon?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendragon_(role-playing_game)
Thats the only king Arthur setting I know of

Posted by: shadowfire Aug 15 2008, 03:32 PM

palladium never did a camelot setting other than a england book (which has camelot in it) for rifts as far as i know.

Posted by: deek Aug 15 2008, 06:03 PM

Yup, that's it, Pendragon. Thanks!

Posted by: Casazil Aug 15 2008, 08:36 PM

I have been told of a game that was called B Movie? at least that is what the person who told about it said the name of the game was.

In the game you are actors in a movie and you play out the sceens if at anytime you need time to change, fix, or think things out you call for a film break.

Anyone know of this game be by the name B Movie or another name?

Posted by: Ed_209a Aug 15 2008, 08:46 PM

Doesn't that summarize the entire Palladium line?

Posted by: tete Aug 15 2008, 11:30 PM

Your looking for this http://www.playbmovie.com/

I think...

Posted by: sunnyside Aug 16 2008, 12:21 AM

Paranoia 2nd edition was made of pure win. I don't know about 1st edition or the new XP edition but they should good too.

The other edition has been declared an "unproduct" and should be avoided unless you can't find a different edition.

Posted by: Suppedo Aug 16 2008, 01:09 AM

I remember a few:

Car Wars
Ardhuin
Top Secret
Every D&D version
Boot Hill
Gamma World
MechWarrior
Paranoia
Traveler
Star Frontiers
Champions
Every Shadowrun version
Twilight:2000
Cyberpunk
Dangerous Journeys
Warhammer
HarnMaster
L5R
Dark Sun

I played D&D the most, and enjoyed Shadowrun the best.

Posted by: paws2sky Aug 17 2008, 02:34 AM

Yeah, more or less.

-paws

Posted by: BookWyrm Aug 27 2008, 08:01 PM

Yes, Palladium's system can be daunting, but it's worth it.

I've played a couple games of Car Wars, using (of course) HotWheels or Matchbox cards. Very Cool.
I've played ONE game of Paranoia. REally didin't care for it.
Tried to get into Twilight:2000, it just didn't click.
I still have fond memories of playing a couple of Claydonia games.
I had some old TORG books a while back, but I traded them when the line ended originally.

I'm with Suppedo. AD&D was fine staring out, but I get the most enjoyment out of Shadowrun.

Posted by: DMFubar Aug 27 2008, 08:45 PM

I was never big on the Palladium system other than Ninjas & Superspies (a must have if you love martial arts). Thinking back on my favorite old games, I can see that I really leaned on modern/sci-fi games.

My favorites included Cyberpunk 2020, Millennium's End (by Charles Ryan, modern day with most realistic combat simulator I have ever seen), Battlelords of the 23rd Century (only sci-fi game I ever played that had NO space combat rules), the original Traveller (though I have been looking at Mongoose's version lately), Runequest (original version) and all versions of D&D since the Basic Red Box except 4E.

Funny side story on Millennium's End. Recently, my car was broken into and my laptop and the bag it was in was stolen. A few hours later, the local sherriff's department called to say that he had located my stuff. But he needed to talk to me about one of the items found within the bag. Inside were all of my shadowrun books, and a folder with a set of documents called BlackEagle/BlackEagle Employee Field Guide (or soemthing close to that) and it contained modern day military techniques and tactics, basically stuff that spec ops teaches now. The deputy, a former Ranger and current member of the local SWAT unit wanted to know why a civilian would have a need for such information.

I laughed as soon as he told me the title and knew where he was going with his questioning, so I explained it was from a rpg that had gone out of business in 2000, but the techniques worked with any modern style rpg. He was still not understanding (I think the RPG part had him confused), so I also explained that my gaming group is made up of members of my paintball team, and those tactics work really well for the scenario games we go to. He was happy with this explanation, and I got everything back except a digital camera. Poor guy was really worried as to why someone with no military background would want such information. Of course, made me wonder how many watch lists I was added to after all of that. Heh.

Posted by: Wesley Street Aug 28 2008, 01:34 AM

Rifts and Palladium in general ruined me on RPGs for a long time. I will say that I truly miss 2300AD and I wish that would be reprinted or brought back in its original form.

Posted by: Black Jack Rackham Aug 28 2008, 12:12 PM

I have a very nostalgic place in my heart for PSI-World. To this day, I pull out the old books (of which I have every one) and try to figure out how to get my regular groop interested.

Some of my other old game loves,
Call of Cthulhu (still going, I know, but in the early days, scared the hell outa me.)
Top Secret
Early Champions
Paranoia
Warhammer FRP
Villains and Vigilantes (my first foray into superhero RPGs, Gads how I remember the random superpower generation of this game...)
Recon
and almost everything already mentioned.

Mark

Posted by: bofh Sep 1 2008, 02:29 PM

Sure.

I packed up all my gear about 10 years ago and got ready to sell it. Didn't get a good deal so I just kept it in boxes. Fast forward to November 2006. My wife can't stand boxes kicking around the house. Either put them on shelves or get rid of them.

So I finally gave in and started unpacking my gaming gear with an eye towards selling it off.

I'm going through my stuff; D&D, AD&D, AD&D2e, CoC boxed, Paranoia boxed, oh look, Shadowrun 1st and 2nd. Browse. Universal Brotherhood, yea that was cool. Denver boxed set. Yea, I think I'll put Shadowrun aside; unpack 35 or so books to the shelves.

Over the next couple of weeks I read the 1st and 2nd ed rules, browsed the adventures. Rigger Black Book, Street Sam Catalog.

I dropped in on rpg.net to start cataloging the books I wanted to sell. Found dumpshock and then started searching for books. eBay, Titan Games, Troll & Toad, and Dragon's Trove and I have the rest of 1st and 2nd and most of third as well as all the paperbacks.

I decided there was just too much 3rd to assimilate and with 4th recently out, I went with that. I played 3rd and a year ago started running 4th.

So yea. I do read the old books

Carl

Posted by: Voran Sep 6 2008, 10:50 AM

I've lost many through the passage of time. Stuff my mom threw out when I was in college, etc. Stuff that's outta print now and only really found online rarely.

The one game I really really loved, and wished would come back was Star Frontiers. Sure d20 tried to bring something similar back via Alternity, but I wanted Star Frontiers.

I was a big Champions fan too, never kept up to date with it past whatever they were printing mid 90s or so.

I'm still a big fan of Marvel Superheroes and DC RPG system. I've still got characters built for the games, though I never get to play them anymore.

Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 7 2008, 05:51 AM

As I sit here in my game/computer room with double rows of book selves of nothing but my collection of RPing books.

Empire of the Petal Throne
Chivalry and Sorcery all iterations
AnD all iterations up to 3rd
Traveller all but the latest iterations
BattleLords
GURPs and its Traveller iterations
Shadowrun and its iterations
Bunnies and Burrows
Monster, Monster
Morrow Project
Gamma World
Metamorphosis Alpha
Phoenix Command and variants
Harn and its many iterations
DnD
ChainMail
Champions
Space: 1889

It has been a long time of RPing games for me.

WMS

Posted by: Synner667 Sep 7 2008, 10:46 PM

Some lovely titles remembered

Just to let you know...
...Star Frontiers is apparently now "freeware" and some kind soul has put the rules, some scenario's, updates, etc http://www.starfrontiersman.com/

Posted by: crash2029 Sep 9 2008, 07:59 PM

One of me favorite games of yesteryear is Spawn of Fashan. I never could figure out quite why it never really caught on. I mean the rules aren't that much more complicated than the Unified Tax Code.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 20 2008, 07:51 AM

...OK was just doing some rearranging around the flat and came a cross a bunch of old RPG stuff. Along with the original D&D, AD&D, Original Shadowrun, and SRII there are a few "gems":

...Space Opera by FGU. This is a game that was ahead of it's time for it really required a PC (of the computer variety) to manage a campaign before PCs became a reality for the average person. I ended up using a slide rule, a 5 function calculator (y'know one of those cheesy TI ones with the red LEDs), and a Jeppsen pilot's Calculator to figure out hyperspace times and TISA fuel consumption. Then there were the starship and character combat systems that make SRIII look like Tunnels and Trolls (see below).

...Chivalry and Sorcery (FGU again). Written my medieval re-creationists with doctorates in abstract math. Chargen involved tables for just about everything as well as quadratic equations. So "realistic it was totally unplayable. Only used it for the fluff.

...The aforementioned Champions (the original 1st printing Blue cover version that looked as if it was typeset with an Olivetti Underwood Manual typewriter) Still one of the most fun games I ever played. Also have the updates and sourcebooks including Champions III - the "Super Supplement" and the first Enemies

...Fantasy Hero: Champions meets D&D.

...Space Hero: Champions in Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaace......

...Danger International: Champions Meets James Bond.

...Villains and Vigilantes: FGU's foray into the costumed hero genre, Actually one of the most playable games they ever published.

...Traveller: the original boxed GDW one including Mercenaries, High Guard, Merchants, and several issues of the Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society.

...Star Trek the RPG (FASA): Played only a couple times as rules were kind of like SR Matrix rules.

...Call of Cthulu the Chaosium one, the only one.

...Runequest: Chaosium's Fantasy RPG which was far ahead of D&D. I always liked the way you improved skills (same mechanic as CoC above)

...Tunnels and Trolls (Flying Buffalo): A real oldie but goodie. Simple dice mechanic, more sensible armour and magic system, colourful spell names, and so much fun. Like SR, a game where the more 6 siders you had, the better.

...and finally, the first RPG I ever played (and still like) Beasts Men and Gods: A small press publication that unfortunately had only limited distribution. Like T&T it had armour absorb and magic point system as well as a pretty good combat mechanic. Mages could wear armour though depending on the discipline, it increased the risk of a spell backfiring (a spell could still backfire even if the mage was unarmoured). There were also some very interesting classes including a hybrid thief-mage called the Shadow Mage and a Warrior Priest. BM&G also had an interesting Chargen system that pared up related attributes like Strength & Con, Dex and Agility, which shared a common control die that was rolled first and added to a 2D6 roll for each attribute. Hence for example, a fighter character wouldn't have a huge disparity between Strength and Con as could happen in D&D. Unfortunately the game did not survive on the market long enough to allow for any supplements or updates.

...ohh and one more, Car Wars: OK not a true RPG but in a way your vehicle was the character as you had to custom design it. Also have Sunday Driver, Truck Stop (18 wheelers and buses), and Autoduel the Champions/Car Wars crossover

Posted by: Fortune Sep 20 2008, 11:42 PM

Another game that deserves mention, at least in my opinion, is Dream Park. Interesting concept, and easily able to handle many different gaming styles (sometimes even at the same time ).

Posted by: fistandantilus4.0 Sep 21 2008, 10:42 PM

Damn I loved Tunnels and Trolls. It's been so long since I'd seen anyone else acknowledge it's existance, I was beginning to wonder if I'd dreamed the whole thing.

Take that you Fiend! "Colourful spell names" indeed.

Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 22 2008, 12:05 AM

I liked Monster, Monster made by the Flying Buffalo who made T&T.

Nothing going in and destroying a village of humans, getting points for creative destruction too.

WMS

Posted by: Remjin Sep 22 2008, 02:29 AM

Heck, I sold off and got rid of a lot of books for various games over the years... robotech, various D&D stuff, a lot of random garbage and what-not that I got into for whatever amount of time for sundry reasons. I've settled down into a few games that I still buy for, on occasion, even if they are no longer produced...

I still keep Hero System (4th edition and now the 5th ed. revised, a sprinkle of 3rd, but none of that Fuzion stuff) and all my Shadowrun stuff (1st ed. and on), Cyberpunk (1st and 2020). I bought into d20 modern to try and get some of the D&D nuts to maybe play something different, but I also have a bunch of D&D since 1st Ed. advanced came along. I mostly keep that stuff for nostalgia than any actual use anymore. I also have Tribe 8, from Dream Pod 9, which was a fun game, but no one wants to play that one anymore.. and started a GURPS collection just to offset the Hero stuff in assumed scale.

A lot of memories with Traveller, a disaster of a Villains and Vigilantes game, several Mechwarrior games.. but as a whole, I have to say I wasn't too adventurous on getting a lot of games. I've dabbled in several mentioned above, but can't say I've been big on most of them. =)

Toying with Savage Worlds lately because someone wants to run a game of it. Its so simple that its almost a great way to start a pick-up game or introduce new people to roleplaying as a hobby. I mention that as its absorbed Call of Cthulu, Deadlands, and others... heck, I think its based on old Call of Cthulu, isn't it?

Posted by: apollo124 Sep 22 2008, 05:32 AM

I bought way more books than I ever played games of, just because I liked reading the books. Played a lot of AD+D 2nd ed when I was in the military, I introduced my D+D pals to Shadowrun.

My first gaming was D+D, closely followed by Top Secret S.I. and the F.R.E.E.lancers add-on (superpowers). Loved the Marvel Super Heroes game, especially the Ultimate Powers Book. Got my butt kicked the one time I played Star Fleet Battles (shooting the enemy with the rear torpedo launcher is not a smart thing to try your first time out). Got my butt kicked my first time out in Mechwarrior, too.(Jumping an 80 ton assault mech onto the top of a 2 story apartment building is also not a smart thing). Got a lot of the Star Trek RPG books, and a weird one called Tripping the Night Fantastic, or something close to that. It was a pretty funny setting with supernatural stuff happening in the modern world, puns everywhere.

Posted by: SinN Sep 22 2008, 06:18 AM

Thats just Dirty.....

Posted by: psychophipps Sep 29 2008, 10:11 AM

My favorite old skool game from my misspent youth is Synnibar. "Why is one of the most reviled, dissed, and generally disdained RPGs of all time your favorite RPG?!?", you ask.

Because no matter how bad my own adventure and/or game ideas seem after I look them over a few days or weeks later, I can always open one of Synnibar's two books and say to myself, "Self, at least your ideas don't suck as much as this shit that managed to get published and sell enough copies to make a second edition."

Posted by: paws2sky Sep 29 2008, 01:53 PM

Which is a really sad statement, when you think about it. :crazy:
In all seriousness, I know several people who enjoyed the game, but I could never get into.



I loved that skill improvement mechanic.



Fuzion: The Original "gives you cancer" game system. Champions: New Millennium, gave me Gamer-Rage.



So, what you're saying is that Synnibar is the uglier-than-you-friend you bring to the bar to make yourself look more attractive?

Wait, it had a second edition!? WTF?

-paws

Posted by: SRJunkie Oct 1 2008, 06:31 AM

Anyone ever take a look at Aria : Canticle of the Monomyth. Talk about unreal. Was probably the most in-depth system I've ever used. So in-depth it was too much. Probably why it was never going to succeed. You could spend a week creating a character (or their family tree) and then you'd forget you had to actually have stats.

Another fun game I used to play was TMNT from Palladium. There's something about playing a nefarious toad-man haha.

Posted by: paws2sky Oct 1 2008, 07:56 PM

Not sure if I mentioned this before (and too lazy to go check), but...

Speaking of mutant animals, does anyone remember a game called Justifiers?

-paws

Posted by: Catsnightmare Oct 14 2008, 01:29 AM

Oh yeah! I've played a little bit of Justifiers. A friend had the booklet and ran a few games for us back when I was in high school. I liked it but could never find a copy of my own.

Posted by: pbangarth Oct 14 2008, 02:25 AM

Anyone remember Bounty Hunter? Not the current Runescape online thing but the RPG with one manual?

Posted by: paws2sky Oct 14 2008, 07:46 PM

Sounds vaguely familiar. Do you remember what was on the cover?

-paws

Posted by: pbangarth Oct 14 2008, 10:55 PM

Damn, my copy of the book is stored in Toronto, and I'm 4000 km. away. If memory serves me, it's a futuristic / cyberpunky person looking left, holding a fancy handgun up James Bond style.

Yeah, like that's unique.

Peter

Posted by: paws2sky Oct 15 2008, 01:01 PM

Hmm. Not what I'm thinking of.

I think the cover I'm thinking of was for Palladium's Rifts Manhunter.

-paws
PS Damn, I was really into Palladium during the 90's, I guess... *shudder*

Posted by: The Exiled V.2.0 Oct 18 2008, 07:37 AM

All the time. Examples:
- Empire Of The Petal Throne
- Talislanta
- HoL
- The Morrow Project

Posted by: eidolon Oct 18 2008, 03:18 PM

Oh yeah. My favorite game next to Shadowrun is still AD&D 2nd edition, and I have an old Top Secret box set around somewhere. Also a huge fan of Alternity, and I'm always up for good game of Rifts.

Posted by: paws2sky Oct 20 2008, 08:27 PM

All this Rifts talk is giving me the sudden (irrational) urge to dig my Palladium books out of storage.

-paws

Posted by: Kingboy Oct 23 2008, 07:11 PM

Now I know what to blame...

Posted by: paws2sky Oct 23 2008, 07:13 PM

Yep.

-paws
PS Kingboy: I'll take that as a not interested, then?

Posted by: Cain Oct 24 2008, 01:42 AM

Everyone's already mentioned the other games I played from that era, so I'll only list two that I remember, but never got to play:

Marvel Super Heroes (The FASERIP version)

and

Bunnies and Burrows.

...

(What?)

Posted by: paws2sky Oct 24 2008, 06:29 PM

I have that sitting on my bookshelf, actually.

A buddy of mine and I had a huge blast with that back in middle school. There was a book they out for it called Ultimate Book of of Powers (something like that) that took the whole random roll character thing to a new level of silliness.



Okay, now there's a game I've never player or owned.

-paws

Posted by: bofh Oct 28 2008, 09:51 PM

I got a copy of B&B from Ken at a con

Carl

Posted by: Wesley Street Oct 29 2008, 05:11 PM

I may have missed this but has anyone ever here ever played Spycraft 1st Ed.? Is it any good? Recommend or no?

Posted by: kanislatrans Nov 1 2008, 03:23 AM

We had a lot of fun with Robotech and Marvel Superhero's over the years.
Rifts was ok, but putting a character together took forever( that and I like to play low key characters likeO.C.C. scouts and the rest of the crew was into full cyborgs and glitterboy armor.)
I really liked twilight 2000. if I remember right it had a good combat system and very realistic.( to the point where we spent half the game brewing fuel for the vehicles.)
I played one game of Runequest.( Fell through a ceiling, broke my legs, crawled to a ballista to shoot some monkey thing, missed, died. )

Posted by: SincereAgape Nov 22 2008, 10:37 PM

Old Shadowrun, specifically Shadowrun II and all of the adventure modules they published. Dragonlance "Dragons of Autumn Twilight" D&D 2nd edition, Legend of the Five Rings 1st Edition, and Vampire the Masquerade and their well written City Sourcebooks line which includes "DC by Night" "Chicago by Night", "New Orleans by Night."

Back in 7th grade - 9th grade a large group of kids and I ran paper and pencil Vampire the Masquerade and we split the GM duties amongst three people, each one running their own city utilizing the city sourcebooks. Good times good times.

Posted by: Remjin Nov 23 2008, 05:07 AM

Funny you should mention it like that... hehe, PLAYED it... yeah, like a few others, I bought a bunch of it thinking, "Hey, d20, can't be hard to get players for this..." so I've never played it. =) I liked reading it, it was fun, but it suffers from the usual d20 stuff... class, levels, prestige classes, etc. Not bad, really, if you like that style of play. I think it would have been fun, but the group I was in at the time wasn't good for it, and the group that is would rather play Hero. =)

Posted by: Icepick Nov 23 2008, 09:14 PM

I'm surprised no one as mentioned 7th Sea, back before the d20 version came out.

Posted by: Fix-it Nov 23 2008, 11:50 PM

Rifts, and I was actually looking back at 3rd edition rather nostalgically. I miss cyberdecks, and the days when a wireless relay was fancy.

Posted by: paws2sky Nov 26 2008, 08:59 PM

Funny you should mention that one. I was just exposed to 7th Sea two or three weeks ago (I'd never player or picked up a copy of the books, even) and now I'm rabidly trying to find more material for it - I've been busy reading everything I can find.

The game system is quirky... it seems like its trying to be "rules lite," but doesn't, IMO, have a sufficiently unified game mechanic to pull it off. Still, its pretty simple compared to some other systems. I just had to dig into it more than I would have expected to pick it up.

-paws

Posted by: Barenziahlover58 Dec 24 2008, 10:32 PM

The old D&D wasnot to be taken serious, also it have no DM manual so the DM was able to change rules freely and add rules freely. Star Ace and Time Master roleplaying games where greast games. Traveler,Space Master and Space Opera where great science fiction game. Star Trek from FASA was also good. Common sence needed to be use in gamering. Let say in Traveler than 20 megraton H-bomb goes off 3 feet from you there is no need to have than rule system say you are dead. I believe the newer generation are ruin by video game.

Posted by: Barenziahlover58 Dec 24 2008, 11:00 PM

I have once the GameScience version of the Empire of the Petral Thones but some christian threw it away. It have spell which most game back then or today have like one Goddress of Sexual Lust have afew spell that make than man too old to get it up get it up againt, spell to help than woman get organize. It have spells to to potect books,scolls and other way of writeing from harm and ageing.
I have C&S which is than great fansy game.

Posted by: Morrigana Dec 24 2008, 11:36 PM

DnD 3E and 3.5E: They could have used a LOT of improvements, but they were actually pretty good. You could end up pulling campaigns you'd never dream of with some systems.

Call of Cthulhu: The Chaosium original is still the horror game.

Call of Cthulhu d20: It wasn't bad, but the fan-made Resident Evil game for its rules was actually excellent. The attempt to convert that system to the Chaosium one failed badly to capture the same feel.

Posted by: hobgoblin Dec 25 2008, 08:16 PM

heh, maybe if one could claim that video games foster a drive to abuse quirks in the logic of things.

to me it seems to be just a echo of everyday life, where people can get millions payed out by claiming they where not warned that coffee could be hot...

Posted by: Wesley Street Dec 29 2008, 05:43 PM

Well, I found old 2300AD manuals for sale through Amazon retailers, dumped a little over $100, and I now have every piece published for that game system. I went through the rules this weekend and I was surprised at how easy they were to grasp. The game is chart driven, especially in char gen and combat, but it's also not a game that fixates on combat and min/maxing. Yes, there's a system for man-to-man, vehicle and starship combat (including a separate hex-based table top game which I'll probably buy later) but it's obviously not the focus, unlike D&D or Shadowrun. 2300AD pulls its pages from movies like 2001 or books like CJ Cherryh's Merchanter-Alliance Universe. Hard science-fiction, unlike space fantasy or space opera, places equal importance on exploration, diplomacy and general problem solving as it does trigger pulling. In one of the side bars it even states "this is a 'role-playing game' not a 'roll-playing game.'" So if a player says, "I walk up to the guard and shoot him in the head" and if there are no extenuating circumstances, he accomplishes it. I like that. I also like that it's expansive enough that a player could be a farmer on a backwater colony, a corporate troubleshooter, or a starship captain (or one of a fleet of captains!).

And, like its predecessor Traveller, it's one of those games where you can die during character generation. God, I'm excited to play this.

Posted by: Wesley Street Dec 29 2008, 05:50 PM

Interesting. I've bought all the Spycraft 2.0 materials and PDFs as well as some of version 1 adventures and there's a distinct vibe of interest in playing the World on Fire setting in my game group. One guy already rolled up a character and we haven't started yet! I can understand how a class based system would turn people off as it limits freedom of choice. But I think, sometimes, it's good to impose artificial limitations, especially if you play in a group where the players want to do a little of everything and you end up with a very "mayonnaise" team, rather than a group of specialists. One of my quirks as a player is that I simply MUST play the opposite role of the majority of the team. I can't stand being yet another hired gun/sword.

Posted by: Adarael Dec 29 2008, 08:45 PM

In my case, that's because I'm still playing 7th Sea.

Posted by: Remjin Dec 30 2008, 01:00 AM

We never have the mayo problem... the thing about freedom is that people tend to do all sorts of things when they don't feel like they have to do something conventional. I get tired of stuff like, "oh, dang, we need a cleric or we'll suck" because all these roles are built in. Most of the time, with a more open system, people tend to specialize and choose certain areas they're good in, and they're not limited by some odd rule that says if they can fight, they can't be smart or know anything else. So instead of the typical Hired Gun, Name X, you get Maximillian, the Firepower Guru that's a gunsmith that is constantly making new and interesting equipment, with an odd penchant for using the Tarot to try and foresee his future that is also quite the scholar on the mythical, etc. And he has the basic essential skills like first aid and other basics that make sense. He's not the medic, but he'll do in a pinch.

I'm not against class systems. Like you say, the artificial limitation is sometimes entertaining... but as a whole, I like more open systems because it lets people play what they want to play rather than HAVE to play what you're told is needed.

*shrug* Just my 2 cents, no more... not particularly articulate tonight.

Posted by: Wesley Street Dec 30 2008, 04:35 PM

I mostly agree. The one thing I'd like to add is that, using your example, if an adventure requires a cleric and no one wants to play one the DM shouldn't be running that adventure. Same with magic-based Shadowrun missions where every player wants to play a street samurai. The DM/GM needs to be flexible enough to provide an appropriate challenge to his players, not ram-rod the players into the game he wants to play.

Posted by: Remjin Dec 31 2008, 10:30 PM

I agree with you as well... but some of that depends on the game. Some require more of that "required classes/skills" than others just from the perspective of how the game is built to work. I have a SR game right now that has no magic users, so I don't impede them with a lot of magic stuff or shaft them on a regular basis because they don't have one. Then again, we're not exactly playing the usual Mr. Johnson hands out your missions game, either. Then again, as I hear it, they're just all happy to be able to play Shadowrun instead of the usual d20 stuff. =)

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 1 2009, 08:37 AM

...the first RPG I played was not D&D. It was a sort of homegrown small press system titled Beasts Men and Gods. One of the games creators was a college buddy of mine. This game had lots ofnice features like armour components, a spell point system which allowed mages and priests to recharge their mana by resting rather than casting that one magic missile spell and being useless the rest of the day. Mages could even wear armour as it just affected their casting success and there were no limits on what weapons one could or could not use as long as you had the strength and agility to wield them. Spell failure could be quite interesting as well and all mages were subject to it.

There was also more parity in hit points between the different classes (pretty much every character started with the same at first level). There was also a stun rating which is where one first took "damage" before going into avtual hits so again characters at low levels had more survivability which made the game more interesting. The chargen system was well thought out in that related attributes used a "control die" and then you rolled 2D6 adding the total to the control die number.

Of course there was no marketing machine like TSR had so the game only had a local appeal where I lived. I still have a copy of my rulebook.

Posted by: Remjin Jan 1 2009, 10:38 PM

All sounds like things that have been incorporated over the years but must have been quite the "wow" at the time, I bet. Always cool to hear stuff like that. Too bad it didn't go anywhere, it sounds like it could have been quite the game for the era.

Posted by: Wesley Street Jan 2 2009, 06:57 PM

I can see, in terms of game balance, why most high-fantasy games prohibit mages from wearing armor. But from a "real world" standpoint it strikes me as being really silly. Though I do think that clerics should only be allowed to use blunt, non-edged weapons. Because http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(club)#European_Middle_Ages can crack skulls but not draw blood.

It's too bad Beasts, Men and Gods never took off. It sounds like it had some real thought put into it.

Posted by: Jeremiah Legacy Jan 2 2009, 06:57 PM

I remember that book. It took me almost 6 months to track it down back in my younger days. Found it in a small second hand bookstore.

They kept making things for Marvel's system up to the late '90s, if I'm not mistaken.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 3 2009, 08:53 AM

..well the balancing factor was the more armour a mage wore, the higher the percentage for spell failure. And this didn't jsut mean the spell didn't work. There was a table of different (and some quite unpleasant) effects that could befall the casting mage. The game also had a critical hit/miss table and that was determined on how far from the base hit value needed (+ or -).

Another nice feature was that any spellcaster could create a temporary, charged, or permanent magic item. The mechanic was well thought out in that for each type you needed to know the specific spell for so many levels (and had to successfully cast it into the item). There was none of that nutty memorising spells each day. Spells had to be targeted, so a mage generally had a decent "missile bonus" but a pretty mediocre "attack bonus" (melee) If one so chose to, he could increase his melee attack percentage, of course at the expense of experience used for improving magical abilities.

All success tests were d100 rolls and damage was based on d6s (for example a greatsword did 3D6 damage + STR damage bonus).

Enchantments to weapons added 5% per level and +1 to damage. Any kind of spell could be imbued into a weapon as a secondary effect provided it made sense. For example I had a preistess who could charge her blade with a sunbolt spell that came in very handy against undead.

One cool class of magic the game had was a hybrid theif-illusionist called the Shadowmage the spells were very subtle but when used correctly could lead to some very interesting outcomes.

This was the only game in which actually enjoyed playing spellcasters as the system was simple yet incredibly colourful and they were not so hamstrung at lower levels.

Posted by: shadowfire Jan 3 2009, 03:37 PM

sounds a bit like palladium fantasy. In that game a mage could wear armour, but the more metal armor the mage wore the harder it was to channel magical energies. kind of like wearing tin foil to bloke EMP or ECM.
As i understand it, it works that way with rolemaster classic as well. except here it is more about the mage being in contact with the world around you and it is hard to do that if your wrapped up in a full suit of metal. You can still do it, but you have a high chance of spell failure.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jan 4 2009, 04:14 AM

heh, rolemaster. the game that penalized a magican for carrying around anything more then a blanket and some food.

still, those critical hit tables are a colorful read. welded to the inside of a metal armor if hit by a max crit lightning attack, anyone?

Posted by: shadowfire Jan 4 2009, 05:28 AM

I think the way my friend runs the game and what rules he changed or leaves out fixed all of the things that people joke about when it comes to rolemaster. For instance, i think he allows from magicians to wear leather jerkens since they are basically thick leather vests. I just wish the difficulty in learning a spell list was easier.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jan 4 2009, 06:27 PM

i pulled out the basics box i have here, and it seems my recall is as bad as its old.

clothing and armor is not counted when it comes to calculating carried items, altho they present their own mods on a different part of the table.

also, the safe limits where a bit higher then i recalled. one should be able to carry around a kid or small animal with little impact.

Posted by: shadowfire Jan 4 2009, 06:55 PM

They recently put out a set of new books that my friend was weiry to get, but was happy about when he did get them and looked through them. It seemed they fix some of the problems with the classic system and the layout is more clear. The rules, for example, of how much weight a person can carry and how far you can move are a lot more concrete and understandable from what they were once upon a time.
But like i said he did change a few rules here and there and does not use every rule every time we do something. Like how much we are carrying only comes into play when it counts; like climbing a cliff side or something.

Posted by: InfinityzeN Jan 15 2009, 04:29 PM

I have a *VERY* extensive collection of RPGs, both modern and classic. One of my fav old gems is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuneQuest3rd edition. I have every book for it (and 2nd edition which is compatable with only minor work) and have run several extensive campagns. The game was massively ahead of its time, with its core system (called Basic Role-Playing) still heavily in use today in such games as Stormbringer, World of Wonder, Call of Cthulhu, Superworld, Ringworld, Elfquest, Hawkmoon, Elric!, Delta Green and Nephilim. Pendragon uses a modified version of BRP.

Another is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_Magica, which I have several 2nd edition, the 3rd edition core book (the one made by White Wolf, which everyone hated), plus every book for 4th and 5th edition. This game has to have the *BEST* magic system of any RPG I have ever seen. Plus it uses a Troupe style running system that lets all the players run games, have several characters (1 Magus, 1 Companion, and lots of Grogs), and give input. It even makes the characters Covenant (their home) into a sort of jointly controlled character that grows and develops with time. Actually designing the groups Covenant in the pre-play session greatly effects how the game will feel.

Also have Traveller (you can die in character generation!), several editions of Call of Cthulhu, Hero system, Paranoia, etc. Got lots of really only games from 20+ years ago that only had the main book come out for.

Posted by: MiloSimpkin Feb 9 2009, 02:43 PM

Unfortunately when I was at Uni I had to sell a lot of my old RPGs for survival purposes. Still I have managed to pick up a few of them since on ebay and have been loving re-reading them. The ones that particularly still grab my attention are:

Judge Dredd - A lovely Games Workshop boxed set that really encompasses the feel of the world and with a system that still holds up pretty well today. I'm thinking of converting it over to WFRP 2 or Dark Heresy to play with in the modern age. Wish I still had a copy of the companion with the Judge Exorcists or the Shuggy Hall Brawl adventure from White Dwarf.

Price of Freedom - Very dated in the setting and the rules are more wargamey than I would like, but still I love it. The cloest thing I have ever seen to Red Dawn the RPG. Go Wolverines!

Top Secret SI - Love it to pieces. One of the RPGs I cut my teeth on. Managed to get the original set along with FREElancers and FREEamerica. While I wouldn't ude the system I have approached my RPG group about playing in the FREE(x) world using Wild Talents.

Honourable mentions go to Chill (I so want the next edition to come out), Masterbook (My go to generic system and with sourcebooks for Necroscope, Indiana Jones and Species), Golden Heroes (Fun pulpy supers) and Dragon Warriors (Still waiting for my NSFLGS to get in the rereleased stuff for that).

Posted by: Adarael Feb 9 2009, 05:31 PM

Dude. Chill. WOW. That's a blast from the past indeed.

I haven't thought of that game since like, 1989 or 1990...

Posted by: InfinityzeN Feb 9 2009, 07:16 PM

Chill... damn, what was the last version of that? I'll have to go dig through my boxes of really old games when I get home.

Posted by: Lindt Feb 14 2009, 09:22 PM

I loved Alternity. I still claim it had quite possibly the best mechanics system ever. A d20 +/- any other die (depending on difficulty).
I miss 'In Nomine' a lot too. Mind you these both pale in comparison to how much I miss the ADnD version of Planescape. I keep saying it was just so far removed from normal that it had to be its own game...

Posted by: MYST1C Feb 15 2009, 12:51 AM

I read some Alternity material once - quite good, indeed. I'd love to see the Star*Drive campaign setting resurrected somehow (Dark Matter has been re-published as a d20 Modern setting).

I've got every book of that game ever published in German - though we got the translation from the French original, so our In Nomine Satanis is still a gory satirical over-the-top "Superheroes from Hell" (or Heaven) fun-RPG, not that serious dark fantasy stuff SJG made from the license...

Posted by: Synner667 Feb 15 2009, 01:15 AM

Alternity was the latest scifi from TSR [at the time], and suffered as part of the general change that SR went through - when they trimmed all the various campaigns to get to what we have today.

I loved Planescape, though I converted the material for use with other RPGs...
...It was like medieval cyberpunk, and I think Eberron has some of its spirit and 'feel'.

Maybe someone will do Planescape v2.0 and run it as a fan-based product [even though it's still owned by WotC], as they did with Dark Sun [which is another great AD&D conversion/campaign].

Posted by: Synner667 Feb 15 2009, 01:19 AM

If I remem correctly, the original creators of Judge Dredd RPG redid it and tried to get it published, but couldn't.

Golden Heroes has been http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Heroes

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 15 2009, 11:34 AM

i think star*drive showed up in d20 future, but was really lacking in detail...

Posted by: lordnth Feb 15 2009, 01:57 PM

I know of another game like that.
The Late Late Late Night Horror Show by Stellar Games out of Toledo, OH Game even featured a "Hostess" that looked like Bride of Frankenstien but talked like Elvira.
Book and Company are long OOP.

BTW that Justifiers game meantioned a few pages back? They were sued by Stellar Games. Seams thier game "Expendables" had the same planet exploration setting. Good luck finding any old booklets. Good luck finding either.

Lucky for me my gaming group consists of quite a few old time gamers. One was a manager of a hobby shop so he has lots of old RPGs. And my father and I were collectors from way back. So every few months/years we vote on what next game we play. Each player that wants to submits a written summary of the game he/she wants to run and we vote. Funny there are no games submitted that are newer than 8 years old... Fun but makes finding that old sourcebook you had lost or never gotten a pain now.

Other games I have that I reread every once in a while;
Legend of the Five Rings
7th Sea (shame the GM ended that game after a short two year run...but that lead to me running SR3)
BubbleGumCrisis (Fuzion system -too bad I can't find that website that converts BBC into SR-)

Old games I always wanted to RP
GURPS
Ironclaw (Sanquine Productions)
Big Eyes Little Mouth RPG

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 15 2009, 03:22 PM

im not sure gurps or BESM classify as old

and ironclaw can still be ordered directly from sanquine...

Posted by: lordnth Feb 15 2009, 09:22 PM

Came out shortly after highschool for me. While I'd like to think that it's not old, BESM -like me- is getting old.

Posted by: Synner667 Jun 16 2009, 11:15 PM

Just finished reading a Traveller: The New Era novel ["To Dream of Chaos"] and it's really got me wanting to have a look at my old copy of the rulebook, and how GDW handled a civilisation destroying Virus...
...And then see what I can do with that information.

Posted by: pbangarth Jun 17 2009, 07:12 PM

I vaguely recall a t-shirt at a Gencon, years ago:

"I survived Traveller chargen!"

Posted by: Bob Lord of Evil Jun 18 2009, 11:28 AM

Bond...James Bond.

Or more precisely, James Bond 007 RPG by Victory Hill Games. Great system, holds up very well even today. One of the coolest gaming moments was when everyone in our group showed up in Tux's and the ladies showed up in formal gowns and we played all night to the wee hours of dawn.

D&D of course, Rolemaster, Marvel, Fasa Star Trek, Pendragon, Twilight 2000, MechWarrior.