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Posted by: Aaron Nov 6 2008, 09:19 PM

I'm in charge of the "D&D Club" at a local middle school. I do this with something of an agenda: I want to try to help form the next generation of gamers into people I'd like to have at the table. I'd like to give them a list of six or seven Gaming Virtues, if you will, something to teach them. I've come up with Teamwork, Role-Playing, and Generosity so far, but I'm not married to those ideas. I'd like some help brainstorming, if you'd be so kind.

So, what virtues would you like to see in a young gamer with whom you sit down at a table? Brainstorming rules apply.

Posted by: Stahlseele Nov 6 2008, 09:22 PM

Conserve Ammo, don't trust an Elf, don't deal with Dragons!
Sorry,i had to ^^
as for a real example: It's not "Good Roleplaying" if your Characters stats don't meet up with the Expectations of the rest of the Group or the Requirements of the World!(Known as the Stormwind Fallacy to some)

Posted by: Ryu Nov 6 2008, 09:34 PM

Story-Telling, Heroism, Realism

Posted by: Fortune Nov 6 2008, 10:09 PM

Bathe regularly!

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Nov 7 2008, 12:10 AM

Simulationism, Chaotic Neutralism, Backstabism.

Posted by: Caine Hazen Nov 7 2008, 12:33 AM

Do not touch my f-ing dice.
Do not randomly pick up my character sheet or books.
Get off my damn lawn... err gaming table

Although personal space should be taught as part of it all... too many gamers who have no social training whatsoever, and need to learn that there are certain limits that need to be placed out there. Usually a strong dose of respect between gamers will lead to better teamwork overall.

Also make sure that you show all the kiddies that PnP is not MMO-ing. Although there are monty haul campaigns out there, it should not be expected that every gaming session is "kill it and take its shit" night.

Oh, and remind the little bastards that they need to f-ing tip in on the pizza and drinks at the table, damn mooches

Posted by: hyzmarca Nov 7 2008, 02:20 AM

Respectful understand of the other players' comfort zones.
In other words, thou shalt not play lesbians and have your characters make out. It's just weird.

Posted by: Ryu Nov 7 2008, 05:20 AM

Creativity

Posted by: Critias Nov 7 2008, 07:56 AM

In order to keep it middle-school-friendly, I'd suggest picking "Gamer Virtues" that can help continue to sell the program to the school administration. Emphasise that gaming teaches teamwork and problem solving, thinking outside the box, alternate conflict resolution systems, the importance of working together to achieve a common goal, the ability to understand and process probability (by way of dice rolling), supports good reading comprehension and communication skills...junk like that.

Sell the sizzle, not the steak. Or, in this case, not the face-shooting and corpse selling.

Posted by: Cantankerous Nov 7 2008, 10:49 AM

Role Playing isn't for girls only. Challenging the Stormwind Fallacy I see RPGs as primarily idea vehicles. Sure, don't handicap yourself for no reason other than to handicap yourself, but if you want to play Frodo, play Frodo, don't worry about whether or not he's min/maxed. Have fun! THAT is what RPGs are about. They are NOT competitions.

Other than that, I'll second Ryu. Those are great, except instead of realism I'd stress reasonability. Dragons aren't realistic.

Selling it to the school admin is easier when you DON'T stress the combative aspects as much as the creative ones. The fact that RPing promotes creativity and thinking outside the box and acceptance of differences...most groups are massively multi-racial for instance.

Isshia

Posted by: Ryu Nov 7 2008, 12:42 PM

Yeah, I wasn´t quite satisfied with "realism" myself. Reasonability is better. Maybe "consequence" would work?

May I suggest "tolerance" for the accepting differences bit? It should definitly make the top-list under some name.

From our last game: "attention". (´Nuff said.)

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Nov 8 2008, 12:58 AM

Critias wins this thread.

Posted by: Cantankerous Nov 8 2008, 08:50 AM

You have a gift for stripping away the fat. Consequence, Tolerance and Attention... those three really WANT mention, in that wording. Well done.


Isshia

Posted by: Ryu Nov 8 2008, 09:54 PM

Thanks

A first attempt:
Attention, Cooperation, Tolerance
Role-Playing
Creativity, Heroism, Consequence


Attention - Focus on the game, even if you have much interesting small-talk to do. Bother to learn the rules you know you´ll need.
Cooperation - Focus on everyone having fun, work with the GM and everyone else to create a good story
Tolerance - Focus on the parts of the game you like, and ignore the others. Whatever keeps you going through the night is true for everyone.

Role-Playing - Who do you want to be today?

Creativity - Use stereotypes as stepping-stones to uniqueness only.
Heroism - The good guys may sometimes finish last, but they should give fate their best shot.
Consequence - Try to create a world that is internally consistent. A suspension of disbelief can only go so far.

(Very idealistic altogether, I certainly have my weaknesses on that list.)

Posted by: DocTaotsu Nov 8 2008, 10:03 PM

Consequence is one of those things you can play up to make this sell well with the administration. You can highlight that a big part of gaming is an exploration of the choices people make and the places that takes them, for good and bad.

As noted it's also a vital part of making a game. Actions with no consequence make for exceptionally boring gaming in my opinion.

Perhaps you should also prepare a handout for parents "We Aren't Worshiping Daemons in the Sewers: The Untold Story of Gaming"

Additionally, you should never, and under any circumstance, give them a link to the Dumpshock forums. Between the "Ballistic Troll Baby?" to the "Bunraku Sex Parlor" thread I'm fairly certain someone will be assembling a pitchfork and torch brigade in no time


Heroism is another good one. Not everyone will agree with that as a virtue but it's certainly something you need for a vaguely school sanctioned game (And in my opinion is appropriate for middle school gamers). The time will come for you to explore darker themes in gaming but the forum to do that (without causing a huge stir) is probably not via a school associated program.
It's also my opinion that there isn't nearly enough heroism in the world (plenty of cynicism of course). It's certainly a virtue worthy of being fantasized about and pursued.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Nov 10 2008, 02:16 AM

Creativity is essential, and I like consequence.

Gaming also taught me probability, but YMMV

Posted by: Ryu Nov 10 2008, 05:09 AM

I like math in gaming, too, but I do not think it´s a virtue, it´s more like a vice.

Posted by: Cantankerous Nov 11 2008, 10:40 AM

So I take it we aren't going to try to add-vice to the virtues?

Isshia

Posted by: Ryu Nov 11 2008, 01:56 PM

We´d need to sneak them in under Mr. Johnsons watchful eyes - not an easy task.


Optimisation - You really should learn some math, and get the most out of your limited ressources. ("I don´t need charisma, I´m a babarian.")

Performance - Try to do the best for your team. (Or someone else might steal the spotlight)

Teamwork - There is no "I" in team. (But there is one in "I take the loot". Go figure.)

Posted by: Critias Nov 11 2008, 06:19 PM

All my years of calculating TNs, playing with goofy dice, working out shooting phases in miniature wargames, and learning the odds of succeeding at various and sundry acts of swashbuckling derring-do (and/or shooting motherfuckers square in the face) are the only reason I squeaked by with a passing grade in my general studies/math requirement, back in the day.

You'd be surprised how much of a basic grasp of probability will stick with you, if it's an aspect of your hobby for long enough.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Nov 11 2008, 08:18 PM

Math is great in games. I feel like my gaming-based grasp of probability is more hands-on than that of someone who took a stat course.

Posted by: Platinum Dragon Nov 12 2008, 01:24 AM

As a side-note, if you're half-decent with numbers, probability courses are a breeze once you've handled dice for a few years.

There's one to help sell it to the faculty: real-life experience with probability and statistics.

Posted by: Ryu Nov 12 2008, 05:35 AM

I fully agree that math belongs on the sell-sheet for RPGs, and I have used it to sell RPGs and tabletops to parents. I do however not think that it is a gaming virtue - the gaming effects of math are usually a bit annoying. For actual play, a developer that can do math is sufficient.

(And there is even more to learn than probability - a firm grasp of the law of diminishing returns, the first basics of a differential analysis... My first advanced math game was Diablo2, IIRC.)

Posted by: fistandantilus4.0 Nov 12 2008, 06:08 AM

Agreed. My wife's been amazed how much gaming has helped her math skills, and speed, in general.

As for Virtues, I'm amazed that everyone's neglected one of the most basic and important:

Improvisation

Posted by: Ryu Nov 12 2008, 07:12 AM

Maybe we are not creative enough


Creativity - Use stereotypes as stepping-stones to uniqueness only. Work with what you have, instead of always trying the same approach.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Nov 13 2008, 12:51 AM

Really? As a rule my characters are all strictly cliches exaggerated to the point of self-mockery.

Posted by: Platinum Dragon Nov 13 2008, 01:12 AM

We noticed.

Posted by: Aaron Nov 14 2008, 08:58 PM

Since y'all helped, I thought you might be interested in v1.0 of what I came up with: http://pavao.org/GreatVirtuesofaGamer.pdf

Keep in mind that the original is intended for a 5x8 index card, and the PDF is stretched to fit a letter-sized sheet.

Posted by: DireRadiant Nov 14 2008, 09:19 PM

It's not just for Gamers!

Posted by: Ryu Nov 14 2008, 10:05 PM

I like. Are the participants supposed to score themselves? What with the teaching to take responsibility and all?

Posted by: Aaron Nov 14 2008, 10:46 PM

The way it works is the kids write the date in the first available row, and put a circle in one of the boxes on that row that corresponds to one of the virtues at the start of the session. Then they keep the card to remind them what the virtues are and what they mean. At the end of the session, the GM (I've got a couple of adult GMs helping me) puts an X in every box that corresponds to a virtue that the kid, in the GM's opinion, lived up to successfully. If there's a circle and an X in the same box, the kid gets to choose one of the prize dice I provide. Of course, you don't get to circle the same virtue if you've done it already until you hit all of them.

Bonus Karma if you can tell me from whence I lifted that particular system.

Posted by: Hocus Pocus Nov 15 2008, 04:32 AM

well being gamers the prerequisite for all of us is that we are virgins, don't bathe, geeky nerds, go "duh" when women talk to us, shut ins that live with our parents still. Since we all share those qualities those should be a given

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Nov 15 2008, 05:44 AM

Wow, that looks good.

Posted by: Ryu Nov 15 2008, 05:49 AM

Well, it reminds me of

Posted by: Aaron Nov 15 2008, 12:05 PM

Hm. Things can be done with that, I think, but no. That's not it.

And by "things" I mean "interesting and potentially nifty but a bit complicated for a teaching tool." But now you've got me thinking.

Posted by: Blade Nov 17 2008, 09:19 AM

Whenever you say "Virtues" and "Gaming" together, all I can think of is:
- Compassion
- Honor
- Valor
- Humility
- Honesty
- Justice
- Sacrifice
- Spirituality

Posted by: mog Nov 17 2008, 04:07 PM

Abuse of L5R is dangerous for your health, your Daïmyo can help you to stop. Definitely............

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Nov 18 2008, 02:39 AM

*cues some Ultima MIDI tunes*

Posted by: Ryu Nov 18 2008, 12:40 PM

I have asked - the original source is not a game. But very inspiring.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Nov 20 2008, 03:20 AM

You're saying the Ultima virtues were taken by Richard Garriot from a non-gaming context and then applied to Ultima?

Posted by: Platinum Dragon Nov 21 2008, 02:14 AM

Pretty sure Ryu was referring to:

Posted by: Ryu Nov 21 2008, 02:06 PM

I was commenting on Aarons source, but I do think that Garriot had a solid base in the code of chivalry, and likely other sources.

This project has a very strong spiritual aspect. The participants construct role models for gaming, and the system rewards them if their role models behave according to virtues. The path of the righ, real-world style.

Posted by: Aaron Nov 24 2008, 08:02 PM

Actually, Garriott based his system on Hinduism and The Wizard of Oz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtues_of_Ultima

I based mine on my own concept of gaming and the (non-facetious) feedback I got here and from my blog. =i)

Posted by: Icepick Nov 25 2008, 04:23 AM

I would hope people would look for something like a set of core values of gaming. That would be a good place to start.

I have no idea what they should be though.

Posted by: Aaron Nov 25 2008, 01:53 PM

What do you think of the list I compiled from the comments here?

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Nov 26 2008, 01:34 AM

Wow, I just wasted like half an hour reading that carefully and following some of the links.

Posted by: Platinum Dragon Nov 26 2008, 01:37 AM

http://xkcd.com/214/

Posted by: Ryu Nov 26 2008, 08:25 PM

Vice or Virtue? No matter what, I feel the pain/goodness. Thanks!

Posted by: Platinum Dragon Nov 27 2008, 03:47 AM

You're welcome.