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Posted by: Fuchs Apr 7 2009, 06:32 AM

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/253848-wizards-coast-puts-stop-online-sales-pdfs.html

So, in a nutshell, a few people pirated the PHB2, and WotC decided to pull all PDF sales. A rather stupid move, in my opinion, I was a frequent customer of 3E material. I guess I'll simply stop purchasing WotC stuff then, and move my money elsewhere for my d20 needs.

Posted by: imperialus Apr 7 2009, 02:15 PM

A seriously boneheaded move on Wizards part. This is probably going to destroy more than a few PDF retailers, and give their customer relations yet another kick in the balls. Seriously, what was wrong with the Watermarks on the PDF's? Obviously this is how they caught the guys that pirated the material in the first place... All this means is that there will be a 1 or 2 day delay between when the book is released and it's up on pirates bay since the seeder will need to scan it first.

Either that or someone will get their hands on the PDF's that are sent to the printer and put those up like they did with the 4th ed corebooks.

I mean really... if Hollywood, the Music Industry and the Computer Gaming Industry combined haven't managed to 'crack down on piracy' what hope does Wizards have?

Posted by: Issmir Apr 7 2009, 05:23 PM

Depends - do they have access to ritual magic?

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 7 2009, 08:20 PM

Ba-dump-bump!

Ironically, I saw a little while ago that Palladium Books will begin producing PDFs in the near future.

What a wacky world we live in.

-paws

Posted by: Chrysalis Apr 7 2009, 08:23 PM

Hell must be freezing over. I know where I am moving if the greenhouse effect continues.

Posted by: BookWyrm Apr 7 2009, 08:35 PM

Let WotC make thier mistakes. It only hurts their sales and profit margins.

Posted by: Malicant Apr 7 2009, 10:05 PM

But it looks good short term for investors. Would be nice to know some actual figures, but if pdf sales don't resume, they will sell much less stuff. A lot of pdf sales go to people who already have dead tree books, some simply refuse to buy books that weight more than a notebook containing all books ever published. And some people are simply pissed of by that move. If Wizards were Sony, they could get away with blatantly insulting their customers. Alas they are not Sony, so this stunt will cost them.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 7 2009, 11:12 PM

It's not just sales they're stopping -- which would be understandable, if misguided -- but also distribution. That means that if you've legitimately purchased a WotC PDF from an online retailer, you can no longer access it. Hope your hard drive doesn't crash!

The distribution part is the seriously boneheaded move. Stopping sales is one thing, but robbing customers that have already paid you money of their product? Bad karma from that.

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 7 2009, 11:17 PM

I am just glad that Catalyst is different.

Posted by: Malicant Apr 7 2009, 11:29 PM

They are not different, they simply are not in the same situation. Yet.

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 8 2009, 12:00 PM

Then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sony_BMG_CD_copy_protection_scandal.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 8 2009, 01:19 PM

apple is the new sony

Posted by: Malicant Apr 8 2009, 01:31 PM

They still kinda got away with it.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Apr 8 2009, 04:11 PM

Meanwhile, DrivethruRPG is giving away free downloads of White Wolf's Exalted main book. I guess if a company is to take advantage of another company's choice, now is the time. I was just given the heads up about this from a friend, so I'm kinda curious about the game system.

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 8 2009, 04:23 PM

Paizo is offering a 35% discount on all Pathfinder PDFs until the end of the month:

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 8 2009, 05:09 PM

Didn't they do something like that when 4.0 came out? Exchange your old D&D books for copies of Exalted? *shrug*

-paws

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Apr 8 2009, 06:06 PM

aye, they did. well, looks like they're doing it again. persistent aren't they.
what I do like is that paizo is offering the discount on pathfinder pdf's as Fuchs mentioned above. I just saw that on their forums. A lot of companies are trying to take advantage of WotC's decision it appears, good marketing standpoint.

Posted by: Malicant Apr 8 2009, 07:03 PM

Once WotC realize how stupid they were doing that and that everyone is making fun of them, they will never ever make a single pdf, just so they have not to admit to the mistake.

It's quite a cool time right now, unless you care for 4E.

Posted by: Vermithrax Apr 9 2009, 01:32 AM

Maybe we will get lucky and Hasbro will sell off the D&D IP.

Posted by: Alex Apr 9 2009, 03:16 AM

But who would do it justice?

Posted by: deek Apr 9 2009, 01:25 PM

The community would do it justice. There would be plenty of bickering to start, but at some point early on, someone would "rally the troops" and take the lead and have a following of enough people that want to help on the project to make it viable. There are obviously going to be forks where disagreements happen, but even if it turns out to be similar to open source software development, having a handful of quality versions of DnD is not going to be a bad thing.

Not that I foresee something like this happening, but honestly, who knows the game, any game, better than the people that are spending hours upon hours running and playing it? Unlike Shadowrun, DnD 4e doesn't need the metaplot. So you are reduced to just the ruleset to play with...

Posted by: AJCarrington Apr 9 2009, 02:36 PM

Even more to the point, who could afford it?

AJC

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 9 2009, 02:51 PM

With the OGL, D&D effectively was put in the hands of the community in all but name. Several fans and corporations are doing their own version, based on the OGL/3E rules.

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 9 2009, 03:10 PM

Bullshit. If anything, fans would end up making twenty different versions of Dungeons and Dragons and declaring jihad against all others.

Fans think that it has to include this thing and that thing and those things, even though none of them will ever agree on what exactly this that or those things are! Further, such versions would probably include so much legacy material that it would make the game either nigh unplayable or unmarketable and please only the people who created it in the first place. And a new audience? I figure small interest in the strange, gibbering Frankenstein creature of clunky and highly specific rules from the 1970s. The rpg hobby has moved on.

Heck, how many legacy systems there are out there right now, each trying to be "old school" DnD? Labyrinth Lord and Castles and Crusades are the two I can think of offhand. What about the holdouts who still play Brown Box? Or go Brown Box and Supplements I & II or just I? What about Greyhawk? Do you continue past there? Or loop it all together and stick Unearthed Arcana in there as well? Would you bring back THAC0? Racial level limits? Elf as a character class? How about, as Wesley's topic down thread mentions, female characters that are only allowed 18/50 strength? Where do you place the arbitrary line and say, "no further."?

And you think Harry Potter slash fiction discussions are razor edged? Try a discussion between 1e and 2e DnD players. Don't even think about tossing anyone post TSR in there, they're liable to get shot. How about the myriad versions of 3.*? How much say would they get in this new system? How many people would line up to kick the 4e fans in the stomach while they're curled in a fetal ball crying?

In my opinion, 4e is a game that's easy to teach, that's easy to play and easy to add legacy material to as you go. I realize that my opinion is highly subjective and think that most the edition warfare is either elitist poo-poo'ing or nostalgic vitriol, but despite rules changes its still a game that follows the e3k rule: explore, kick in doors, kill monsters, kollect treasure. Anything beyond that was bullshit that people added on in their own campaigns or came from a rule set that was advertised as being able to do anything, any genre, any game! but didn't actually succeed. I think that Dancy needs a kick in the teeth for trying to sell that particular load...

I've been trying to avoid this whole pdf issue because I knew it would devolve into people taking pot-shots. Is this Sony stupid? Yep. I've spent the last couple of days looking for something that would shed light on why they'd make such an obviously wrongheaded decision, but have thus far come up blank.

If the popular conspiracy is right and this is all a smokescreen while they create their own pdf sales service, there are much better ways to have gone about it. If it's because the lawyers are freaking out over pirates...Wil Wheaton actually answers best: "the people that are going to steal are going to steal regardless of what I do to try and stop them. The best way to compensate is to be open, honest, and try to provide things that you can't get by stealing it online."

WotC had better start frying up some crow but quick or this is only going to get worse. They at least need to stop scrambling around trying to justify it because they're looking like the Keystone Cops. My opinion? This ain't some evil scheme - "never attribute to malice that which is probably stupidity" - this is Lawyertron 500 gone buggy.

Posted by: deek Apr 9 2009, 04:12 PM

But that's the point. In this day and age, just because some game is published by XYZ and can be bought at Barnes & Noble doesn't mean its better. I'd easily accept twenty different versions of DnD and all the bickering. If they are all being actively developed and receive input from the community, then we all win.

I may like version B and you like version C, but seeing neither of us have to shell out $$$ to play it...again, we all win. We get to play a bunch of different games without investing money and then we pick the one that fits our style best and go with it. And if you then get involved and become in part a developer, then we all win again, because its constantly being improved. And I guarantee a good game will still be a good game if its not coming out on hardcopy.

There are so many rpgs out there that sound intriguing or I'd like to play or run, but I'm not gonna shell out more $$$ and take a chance on a dud. But if it was all free...it'd be a different story...

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 9 2009, 04:51 PM

We already have that. Not just all the D&D versions done under the OGL, but the myriad of houserules just about every gaming group uses for their D&D. The OGL made sure that D&D is in the hands of the fans.

As far as input from fans goes, Paizo's Pathfinder is a year-long beta test for their new D&D system. In a few months we will see how much input we had on that projec, when the finished rulebook comes out.

Posted by: deek Apr 9 2009, 05:10 PM

The uphill battle that we, as gamers, have, is that table top games are not all that popular. Its a niche market. So unlike, say linux using an open source model, there are much fewer people using, developing and frankly, interested in rpg rules and settings. I mean, its not like we are going to see an explosion of new people getting into rpgs in the next 5-10 years.

I wish it were different, but there's a substantial investment in time to run and participate in an rpg...and the trend from technology, hobbies, games, even just day-to-day life is smaller, faster and instant gratification/feedback. Something that print publishing is fighting against very strongly...

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 9 2009, 06:11 PM

Made sure that the 3.* version of DnD is in the hands of fans.


Are you kidding? Pathfinder is the exact result of what would happen if fans were allowed anywhere near a rules system. Changes that would benefit the game withdrawn because THAT'S NOT DnD.

The only things that have changed with Pathfinder is that they've got some better art, they've upped magic users abilities, given fighters a token or two, and added flight to the skills. They haven't solved the issue of increasingly huge and overcomplicated stat blocks, taking forever to create NPCs, all of the problems with multi-classing (why thank you, I will take one level of Fighter for a whole bunch of free armor feats...), melee classes being shit weak in the higher levels, hell, how complicated epic play is...

And the more they change and the more they tweak, the less compatible with book standard 3.* it becomes. Funny.



This is way too pie-in-the-sky for me, sorry. Maybe I'm weird and traditional and I'd rather buy from a company that has money and time to stress test a system and bug check it and write some books for it. Not to mention that if the only game in town was free...believe me. Someone would come up with a way to generate revenue from it. Either the ransom system or 'donations' to keep the author in business.

It's great that fans can hack together a system and run with it. It'll continue to be great for the "old school renaissance" that I'm constantly hearing from grognards. Have fun with it. I'm playing 4e and having fun with it.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 9 2009, 06:26 PM

Look, I'm not trying to start, or in this case continue a fight, but this getting way off topic.

You don't like pre-4e, we get it. There are plenty of folks who would like to take try their hand at taking the clay that is 3.x and turning it into something interesting. There are people who like even older editions, as have been mentioned.

So what if these groups disagree on what's best? It is all personal opinion. You know what they say about people and opinions, right?

Let's try to get back toward the original topic, please.

-paws

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 9 2009, 06:38 PM

Never said I was a pre-4e hater, or my closet wouldn't be packed with pre-4e material I'm just saying that WotC isn't the devil everyone thinks they are. No big deal.

I'll gladly get off the topic though and continue to say that WotC is being incredibly dense about all of this.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 9 2009, 07:04 PM

You havn't a clue what you're talking about.

They reduced wizard, cleric, and druid power levels (fewer spells per day except for cantrips, polymorph SEVERELY nerfed, most of the save-or-dies and save-or-sucks SEVERELY nerfed, etc); fighters are significantly better between the dramatically increased combat abilities (weapon and armor masteries) and the fighter-focused new feats (such as the Critical feats that can do things like stun the enemy every time you crit); the huge and overcomplicated stat blocks are all caster stat blocks, and with fewer spells per level and fewer overpowered spells, those aren't as much of an issue; there are streamlined NPC creation rules and tables; I and a lot of other people don't see that as a problem with multi-classing; see Fighter above; Epic play is not part of the core rules and Paizo has already said they're most likely going to completely scrap the current Epic rules.

Being a 4E fanboy is fine. Just please don't make statements that have no support about a competing product.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 9 2009, 07:19 PM

Sorry if that came off harsh. Just tired of seeing people argue "which edition is best" over and over again.


Agreed.
What gets me about it is that it seem totally out of the blue. WotC material has been pirated for... well, a long time.

The idea that they're launching a PDF service is interesting, but... Seems like they're putting the cart before the horse here. If they're doing this, it would have made a lot more sense to have a launch date for the service, wouldn't it?

-paws

All this vaguely reminds me of a story I read not long ago. There was this band out of... Norway, I think. Pretty niche, regional at best. Their new album comes out and they sell a very, very small number of copies (like less than 1000 copies). On a whim, one of them goes out to see if the album is being file shared. He finds a tracker site that says the album has been downloaded from a major p2p network (pirate bay, I'm guessing) thousands of times (like over 200,000 times). They freak out and start talking legal options. After pursuing it for a while, they discover that the tracking site was bogus. You could enter just about anything into the site and it would produce grossly inflated numbers. Whoops. After more research, they actually get a good number. Turns out their album has been downloaded only a couple hundred times. So now the band is mad and embarrassed that they're not being distributed.

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 9 2009, 07:26 PM

You and me both. Try going to every forum and hearing, "WOTC IS THE DEVIL!!!" repeated ad naseum and you'll see why it's hard not to say something from time to time.


And that's what bothers me. There's absolutely no precedence here. You've been pirated? Congratulations, that's what happens on the internet nowadays. In fact, you've offered lots of things for free. Now it's a problem? Since..?

Again: lawyers or critical overreaction to something that has nothing to do with pirates that they're trying to cover-up.


Exactly. Would they want to cut out the middle man and make direct money from pdf sales? Of course. Everyone wants as much money as they can get without having to pay someone else to do the transaction. But this is beyond rationality and veers strongly into tinfoil hats.


Heh, the very definition of eating crow.

Zurai, I'll look into that. I'm going by information I've pulled from other sites. Jeeze, calm down.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 9 2009, 07:34 PM

Internet? Man, I remember getting (poorly) photocopied books from friends back in the late 80's, before most folks had even heard of the internet. Heck, my dad even copied stuff for me at work. We didn't know crap about copyright law back then (nor did we care).



See also: Damnatus, the 40k fan movie that got scuttled by Games Workshop after it was finished! These folks spent years on this thing. They had no desire to make money from it. But some little bit of German law said that they couldn't surrender their creative works, so... GW said, no you can never release that... yup.

(Care to bet whether or not that movie is out there somewhere?)

-paws

Posted by: Malicant Apr 9 2009, 09:13 PM

Actually, Damnatus was shot down well before filming began... they just had a major miscommunication. Which sucks balls big times.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 10 2009, 04:32 PM

if of two minds on this subject...

1. the people that do the hard work needed to create these things need to be compensated for their time.

2. the copyright system is clearly out of date, as it was created back when one needed a very expensive press to make duplications. now, a $200 laser printer can do much the same work, based on a pdf that costs less then one cent to duplicate if one consider the energy cost of recreating a bunch of magnetic field states on a spinning ferrous disk. it was also set up to handle arguments between wealthy owners of said presses, not millions of individuals.

basically, the ones that are screaming loudest here is not the "artist" but the middle man, the ones that have their business model made obsolete by the steady advance of technology.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 10 2009, 04:37 PM

Really? Hmm. Not what I got from their (very sporadic) newsletters. Maybe something was lost in the translation to English?

-paws

Posted by: AJCarrington Apr 10 2009, 07:16 PM

I was under the same impression as well.

AJC

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 12 2009, 03:50 PM

Four thoughts:

1. Digital media is the future of publishing. Anyone who says otherwise is a Luddite. Removing yourself from that model is shooting yourself in the foot.
2. Internet piracy is impossible to stop. However, monetary losses due to piracy can be worked around and should be factored into the publishing model. It's clear that WotC did not do this.
3. While I'm not on board with the whole fan-film thing (mostly because if I was going to put a lot of work into a project I'd like to get some sort of financial compensation for it and perhaps sell it down the road), smart publishers need to acknowledge the gray area that is fandom and not crush fan enthusiasm. Paramount used to toss cease and desist letters left and right but they've since realized that, while yes, fan films technically infringe on IP, it's these same fans who are the company's biggest supporters. In Japan (which has stricter copyright laws than the United States) one of the largest otaku events is the summer fanzine expo where students sell and trade manga that utilizes copyrighted characters. And somehow Kodansha and the other publishers and the students have managed to create a sort of symbiosis.
4. This is the kind of stuff that keeps IP lawyers employed. Unfortunately, those lawyers use the same measuring stick across industries. Entertainment is not the same as manufacturing.

Posted by: AJCarrington Apr 12 2009, 10:38 PM

Good points. Not to sound too "fanboy-ish", but I'm interested to see how CGL's newly announced PDF availability thru FGLS works out. In particular, I like the way they've tried a different approach, rather than simply offering "discounts" for the next couple of weeks. Time will tell how successful it will be, but I like the fact that they're trying to take a different approach.

AJC

Posted by: Browncoatone Apr 13 2009, 05:10 AM

The future is not PDFs. The future is selling access to digital 'books' that can not be downloaded and are so thick with background art and such they make it difficult, if not impossible to print them out on your home printer. Sure, you'll be able to make a screen capture of each page of every rulebook and sourcebook to make your own PDFs - go for it, I dare ya! but since the cost of subscription will be so low it won't be worth the time and effort to do so.

I'm sure there will still be some limited runs of physical books mind you, but as the wi-fi thing continues to expand and people continue to embrace personal electronics capable of accessing the net from virtually anywhere, the demand for physical books will diminish considerably.

The business model I foresee will be not unlike a Netflix subscription. You'll pay a monthly fee for access to the material and this access will be tiered like Basic Player's Access: just the player's handbook in DnD terms, Basic GM's Access: just the 'core' rulebooks, and Full Access: all rulebooks and sourcebooks plus weekly gems like adventures, notable NPCs, game maps, inspirational artwork etc. And like a Netflix subscription, no downloads, so once you stop subscribing you lose all access.

Posted by: Dumori Apr 13 2009, 11:55 AM

You do know that any file that can be read can be copied and likely more efficently than print screening. Also if one requires net acess to play pnp RPGs then you've lowered the market shear you have acesse to. Plus the net can mess up so of it goes down I'm a session you can't get any rule books thats asking for me to screen cap all of the pages that Ill use regualy.

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 13 2009, 12:27 PM

No offense meant Browncoat, but were you agreeing or disagreeing with Wes? I couldn't quite make it out from your post.

And even if everything went all digital, I would still print out my books in order to put them up on a bookshelf. But I admit that I'm weird like that.

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 13 2009, 01:01 PM

FYI, I'd still buy hard/softcover RPG books. I like to read the things on a casual basis (and you try taking a bubble bath or sitting on the throne with a MacBook on your lap!). But when I'm writing or running a game, digital is the way to go. Quick reference makes for efficiency.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Apr 13 2009, 02:26 PM

Monthly fee to access the books? Oh heck no. I want the physical books and to buy my copy of the digital which I can access whenever I feel like it. I'm a dinosaur from the old age and I hate this pay by month subscription idea. If that's the wave of the future, the future stinks horribly.

Posted by: Browncoatone Apr 13 2009, 03:30 PM

I'm sure there will be hackers out there that will make a go at cracking the cyber defenses of such a system, but I doubt that there will be much demand in pirated copies when paying for it legally will be so much simpler.

I like having a physical copy myself, and that's why there will always be some print copies. However I don't see the print copy continuing to be the primary means of distribution.


I've heard that before. How many people pay a monthly fee to watch movies on TV, or play music on their MP-3 player? To you and I who (I'm guessing here) are old enough to remember before the internet was a household word the idea that you wouldn't have access to your source material except through an electronic gizmo does rub against the grain. But remember also how we had to truck it down to a public library and mess with Dewy to find some dusty tome on [insert obscure topic here] only to find the library didn't have one and we had to "order" it from a larger library somewhere else? Now we generally skip the library altogether and go straight to the net. Younger generations don't even remember a world without the internet. As the i-phone, Blackberry and associated technological monstrosities become more common- and they will (remember when only pimps, stockbrokers & drug dealers had pagers?)- the idea of subscribing to online services for a small fee will become a given. Having such an apparatus without online services will be like having TV without basic cable or a cellphone without a custom ring tone. Once the cost of distribution is cut and the level of piracy reduced to nearly nothing the price of the material will be considerably lower while the producers of the material will see substantially more profit.

My Netflix subscription runs like $15 a month (I think- I'd have to ask the wife) and the movies I watch through this service cost millions, some hundreds of millions to produce. Do RPGs cost more than a fraction of that to produce if you cut out the cost of printing? Would a DnD player pay $3 (another guess) a month to have access to all the published material for DnD at his fingertips? Think about it: no more "I can't play a sorcerer because I haven't bought the Player's Handbook II" or "I can't take the [enter feat name here] because I haven't purchased the Forgotten Realms Setting sourcebook".

The change will be not just how you get the material, but what material you get. It won't be like buying a book but rather like getting HBO. You'll be subscribing to the DnD channel. The material will be constantly updated so your copy won't ever be out of date. You'll have access to all the maps, all the art, probably even music and sound effects- everything you need to run your campaign for a single low monthly rate.

Of course, I didn't say everyone would like it, just that the current business model of pretending computers don't exist and continuing to print and sell books like it's 1975 ain't going to work. A new model will evolve and we'll either evolve with it or the pencil and paper RPG will go extinct.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 13 2009, 04:44 PM

sure, if one can have a single reader to access all the data, maybe with a built in offline cache, just in case...

something like a kindle scaled for page size (or maybe the rpg companies should start to retool their books for kindle and similar? i know mongoose sells pocket versions of some of their books) could maybe work...

Posted by: SpasticTeapot Apr 13 2009, 05:01 PM

That's a false dichotomy. A movie is something that is watched once and absorbed - paying a one-time fee to see a film has been the de facto standard since the days of Edison.

Subscription-based music is similar - you listen to a song, you get bored of it, you get a new song. However, the huge majority of people still choose to buy their music outright through the iTunes music store or, as I choose to, on plain old CDs.

A Shadowrun book is a reference source, functionally similar to an encyclopedia - you'll be looking at it repeatedly for years. Unlike subscription-based and continually updated sources like Lexis-Nexis, the content you buy will remain static outside of a few error corrections.

Besides, it takes one guy with a saw and a really good batch-feed scanner to turn a whole text into a .PDF.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 13 2009, 05:53 PM

one thing just came to mind. what about people that want to play previous versions?

under a subscription model, will they be out in the cold when a new version comes around?

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 13 2009, 06:21 PM

Judging from the way WotC handled it, yes.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 13 2009, 06:32 PM

Most likely.

-paws

Posted by: Browncoatone Apr 13 2009, 07:37 PM

Because http://www.britannica.com/ doesn't publish an online subscription service or anything.

Posted by: Necro Sanct Apr 13 2009, 07:45 PM

Say if a genie snapped it's fingers right now and all the printed books in existence disappeared while every company to release a gaming product converted to a digitally encrypted hacker-proof subscription system. It would depend on the company and what they own for the specific game system. Some would have their whole catalog up while others would only have their own releases for the editions they offer. Perhaps over time companies that have worked on the same system would band together to offer their customers all the material for a system. Those companies that would not go about that model would only give customers the option to require multiple subscriptions to have all the cross material.

Now in the real world we have no such thing to make that happen. That leaves us with stopping production of print, which I do not see happening, for a similar digital model. Books are slowly phasing out but I do not see them ever being truly replaced. Newspapers on the other hand are a completely different thing and most likely it will not be long before those might disappear altogether with how some of them are even shutting down outright.

SpasticTeapot points out that they are "reference materials". They are hobby books plain and simple. Most printed reference material is usually something you pay an extreme price for to actually increase your own personal monetary gains beyond that cost. One of my biggest issues of these "reference materials" is the price point of them. Going over a list for printed hardcover material always confuses me from a quick glance at the price. I do not have the hard numbers behind all the factors so I give the publisher some sort of benefit of a doubt there. Most hardcover releases end up being anywhere from $0.10 to $0.20 per page with the average per page being $0.19. WotC has $0.11 (Player's Handbook) to $0.19 (Martial Power, Arcane Power, Manual of the Planes, FRPG, and Dungeon Delve). Catalyst has $0.10 (4th Rulebook) to $0.20 (Augmentation). Those numbers are all over the place for the various types of books that a company puts out and makes the reasoning for the costs even more befuddling.

Anyway enough of the venting about per page pricing. I enjoy nice artwork and all the fancy layout of most hardcover books like the next person. I wish there was a cheaper stripped down version similar to the Dummy line of books. At the end of the day it is the rules that matter to me as a customer especially in today's crap economy. Less focus on the extra flash for the books would open up more options for publishers in the digital realm. A small subscription fee or perhaps a per release code for web module unlocks added onto the book cost for extra stuff beyond the book like npc databases, adventures, stories, artwork, maps, and so forth would be nice. It would possibly become easier and cheaper for a company to mass produce this extra material to expand the world we play in while keeping people actively on staff. It might even mean that due to the lower timeframe involved, with such things as slaving behind book publishing software/proofreading for a few months to get everything laid out properly for just 1 release, books could be released more often. Since the price would be lower it could even bring more people into the community as they would not be on the fence as to if they want to pay $30 to $40 for one book that sees limited use.

Posted by: Chrysalis Apr 13 2009, 07:46 PM

Most reference sites are subscription only. Everything from dictionaries to journals.

Posted by: deek Apr 13 2009, 08:38 PM

I think the scary thing for some of these publishers is that once they get to a point where they offer a stripped-down version of a PDF, they are then going up against anyone else out there that can put out a solid ruleset. They no longer are offering the bound hardcopies that make us think they are "better" or more official. Obviously there is still IP for the setting and the like, but the rules are fair game.

Get someone out there with a better ruleset and it doesn't take long before you trade one PDF for another...

Posted by: Freejack Apr 13 2009, 11:42 PM

I subscribe to the O'Reilly Safari web site. It's about $400 a year for access to all their and several other publishers' books electronically. I started when it was $325 and they had a bookshelf model (30 slots, books take 1/2, 1, or 2 slots, can't remove a book for 30 days). Since I purchased about $600 in computer books a year, I figured it was a good value and it was. Since I was a consultant, I had access to anything I needed to admin servers and paid extra for 30 slots so I'd have access to programming or more fuzzy texts (like Advanced Unix Programming vs a reference book like PHP Cookbook).

It's going up in price again (about $43 a month) to the point that it's not worth continuing (the model is changing to unlimited access to all books). They've reached the price point where the cost of keeping up on my book collection is about the same as the subscription cost and I'd rather have the dead tree copy. Plus my computer books are still pretty current so it won't be a big hit to the pocketbook to pick up the books I still want.

But I liked it because I could find things a lot quicker than on PDF (much better search engine). What I'd really like is a similar index as in Microsoft help stuff. An index but also the ability to index the entire PDF. It'd make significantly easier and quicker to find stuff. Even on my 2 Gig ram Mac, it's lightning slow to search for things.

Carl

Posted by: Alex Apr 14 2009, 01:51 AM

The company I work for has opted for a system that allows us to search pretty much every engineering or inspection standard in existance - not just the current versions but all previous ones as well.

If a game company came out with a similar service, I would use it in a heartbeat.

Posted by: SpasticTeapot Apr 14 2009, 04:00 PM

Yes. It's continually updated. Most books aren't.

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 14 2009, 04:50 PM

Plus it's a 200-year old institution with a staff of 100 and 4,000 regular contributors.

I could see this being plausible for WotC as they're the 800-pound gorilla of the industry, owned by the second largest toymaker in the world. As for everyone else? It's a niche. The only way I could see a Netflix-style market working for everyone would be if every RPG publisher signed on to the project and with your $25/month membership fee you had access to every and any RPG book you wanted. Netflix only works because it's hard to find DVDs they don't carry (other than porn, obviously).

Posted by: Browncoatone Apr 14 2009, 08:02 PM

But this is fiction, it's much easier to write than an encyclopedia.

Computer technology is a big equalizer in things like this. My father-in-law is a lawyer. He once told me about the hard days when he first started his private practice how the big law firms could basically bury a small practice in paperwork rather than go to trial because they owned a computer. Back then there were only mainframe systems and only big companies could afford them. So the big company would slam the small practice in court with motion after motion putting its word processing software to devastating and decisive use while the small practice had to respond with typing each counter-motion out manually each time.

Then the game changed. The personal computer became available and the small practice could throw motions almost as fast as the big boys.

Once you remove the need for physical publication the cost of producing the material goes down. Then add the ability to profit from offering supporting material that would rarely if ever make it as published material and you create a situation where the authors of the material can keep busy making weekly additions to the product without requiring the customer to purchase 3+ manuals at $40+ a piece just to play. Makes it easier to sample the game.

Really what I'm suggesting is the 'RPG' will stop being a 'book' and become a combination of electronic core documents coupled with a weekly or bi-monthly electronic magazine that will introduce extra material and the ability to search those archives for the material you need at the moment. This will transform the RPG industry from the 'movie' model, where the authors spend a year producing, publishing and distributing a physical book in hopes that enough people will buy it at $40+ to recoup the costs of production and maybe see a bit of profit, to the 'TV' model, where the authors keep working all year adding little bits to the grand tapestry of the game while profiting from subscriptions for access to their work.

That, or everyone better get used to World of Warcraft.

Posted by: Adarael Apr 14 2009, 08:47 PM

You can't hear it, but I laughed myself hoarse here.

Perhaps what you mean to say is that fiction is usually less time-consuming to research than an encyclopedia? It sure as shit isn't easier, especially if you want it to be of decent quality, internally consistant, and fun to read as well.

If that's not what you mean, you are just plain mistaken.

Posted by: Browncoatone Apr 15 2009, 12:02 AM

No, I mean that making shit up is a hell of alot easier than having to research and footnote the facts.

"The Ratman army conquered the Free City of Dorkiness in the 3rd year of the Reign of Klondas the 2nd."

See how easy that was?

Posted by: hyzmarca Apr 15 2009, 01:36 AM

I'm sorry, but that's just impossible.

Everyone knows that the Miragian Ratpeople where brought to near-extinction by Klondas I's ethnic cleansing campaigns. According to Abjorned Tales Volume III page 194, the surviving Ratman population numbered around 7000. Even with Ratman breeding rates, that isn't enough time to build an army capable of handling Dorkiness's million-man-strong legion of Battlewizards.

Posted by: Byron Apr 15 2009, 02:26 AM

Quickly glancing at the first post or two I'm just going to say that to be honest, who here actually thinks their not going to rescind this policy within a year?

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 15 2009, 03:02 PM

The great thing about this model? The ability to get fluff retconned! It'll be like the supreme soviet issuing their monthly historybook revisions, except nobody will know it's happening except the people who care enough to make a big stink about it.

Excuse my cynicism, I am actually rather in favour of moving to electronic distribution. I just feel that unwavering optimism takes us places we're best not going.

Posted by: Chrysalis Apr 15 2009, 09:15 PM

I don't think they will rescind their policy within a year, or when the fandom forgets about heir being a service retracted. To be honest, all I can think of is "Pride before the fall" and my own personal continuation "too much pride to ask for a hand." Favourite sin of mine - pride.

Posted by: Browncoatone Apr 15 2009, 10:45 PM

I didn't mean that everyone would be happy about it, or that the full potential of such an idea will be realized, only that the idea of selling a game by selling a book idea will not persist in a 21st century world.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 16 2009, 03:08 PM

http://blip.tv/file/1996369

now im wondering how to apply the concept of drm as platform lockin into a SR game. i can actually see rival content corps supplying cracks for their competitions platform, using it as a marketing tool. "see, theirs can be broken! by switching to us, your content is safe, however!"...

hmm, runner teams hitting the company servers developing the latest drm systems, so as to plant a back door developed by a rival corp?

Posted by: Mäx Apr 19 2009, 02:57 PM

Never expected to see this kind of naive thinkink in a shadowrun forum, monopoly systems like that wuold raise the price trought the roof.
Only reason netflixs is that cheap is the fact that it has to compete with online piracy.

Posted by: deek Apr 20 2009, 02:59 PM

Netflix competes with Blockbuster, brick and mortar video rental and On Demand...I think piracy factors into the cost, but its not a direct competitor.

There are only a handful of true monopolies and only two I can think of off the top of my head: mouse traps and pinball machines.

So, I do agree once distribution costs are cut, then the price drops considerably and the hassle to get pirated copies is not worth just buying the content. The problem with RPGs, is demand. There's just not enough to create the huge volume that makes these price models workable (e.g. Walmart, iTunes).

I'll venture to say that if the price of a hardback RPG book were to be half the cost it is today, you would not see the volume of sales grow significantly. I could be wrong, but I don't see more people getting into table-top gaming just because the books are cheaper. The best a company could hope for would be more existing players buy the book (online or hardcopy) rather than most groups sharing the content. I've been in very few groups that everyone had a ton of books and most with at least half the players having none.

So, the real question would be, is there a price point, online or hardcopy, that would entice those players to actually buy a book. If not, then it really doesn't matter cause you will be selling about the same books regardless of price.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 20 2009, 06:43 PM

I can answer that, for me at least.

$30 is the most I'll pay for a new hard copy book. I don't know why, but when I see a book above that price, I tend to just automatically put it back on the shelf. The only reason I own the SR4 core books is that I get a rather nice discount at my FLGS and I frequent Half Priced Books religiously.

For regular books in PDF form, I have to admit I'm not a huge fan. The printed layout doesn't really work well for on-screen reading - I just can't sit down with a PDF and absorb the information like I can a book. The main reason to get them is to search for keywords. As a general rule, if I see a PDF priced for much more than half of the printed cost, I won't consider buying it.

Now, I do like the $4-ish price tag on the mini-PDFs like Digital Grimoire. I would like them to be a bit longer - a solid 20 pages of actual content would be very nice. Also, that would put it on par with the magazines I occasionally buy.

-paws

Posted by: deek Apr 20 2009, 07:02 PM

Yeah, having some shorter, low price (~$5 range) mini-PDFs are appealing, but then they'd really need to produce more of those and more frequently. Volume goes up, quality goes down because you are producing more in less time. But it would work.

I guess I am looking at my own gaming table and the GM (in this case, me) has bought 6 books and have PDFs for all of those plus 3 more. I share all of them with my players and I think one or two other people have bought a hardcopy core book. Now even if the PDFs were only a dollar, I have a hard time thinking anyone but me is going to buy it.

I used to not be a fan of PDF books...but I read so much at work on my computer screen, that its not even a second thought reading on-screen. Laptops are cheap, so if I need a more comfy chair to settle down it, that's easily resolved. But, my computer chair is pretty comfy too...

Posted by: Lordmalachdrim Apr 20 2009, 10:11 PM

Personally I really dislike PDFs since they're a pain to read though (for me at least) and they're slow to find what you want once you know the book fairly well. As for their usefulness at the table...well they're of no use to players at my games since I don't allow laptops at the table (gamers have a horrid habit of doing everything but paying attention when they have computer access).

As for WoTC stopping sale of PDFs well it sucks for anyone who's bought a e-book from any of the affected companies and even more for anyone who's a fan of an out-of-print game (Alternity, Gama World, AD&D, etc.) since given their prior actions regarding these items I doubt they'd make them available on their site if they do sell them in-house.

Posted by: Zenfar Apr 21 2009, 02:11 PM

When I heard about WotC dropping PDFs I decided to go out and buy PDFs from other companies. That and I use pen and paper RPGs to spark my imagination for what could be done in computer RPGs, with 4th edition D&D it seems like a computer RPG in print, more like a computer RPG design document than an actual game.

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 21 2009, 05:10 PM

I strongly agree with this in theory but in the case of CGL or Crafty Games, which are very small shops, there are only so many editors to go around. But like I said, I strongly agree and it seems to be the system that Crafty Games has set up for Spycraft 2.0. The core rulebook and World on Fire setting book are dead tree, everything else is a $3 mini-PDF supplement (new weapons, new factions, new player classes, etc).

In my land of unicorns and puppies I'd love to see a Shadowrun 10 page mini-PDF released every other month and have it cover... something in the Shadowrun world. It wouldn't have to be much. Say the island of Sri Lanka, a space station, or a few new weapons or vehicles. Or critters or sample NPCs. Or rules for starting a rock band a la Shadowbeat.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 21 2009, 07:14 PM

An update for the Kingdom of Hawai'i would be choice.

-paws

Posted by: Zenfar Apr 21 2009, 07:27 PM

This would be a very cool product especialy if it had high production values. When tablet PCs become cheap and common the PDF will be all you ever need or want.

Posted by: Lordmalachdrim Apr 21 2009, 07:43 PM

I'll disagree with you there, I love the smell and feel of a real book.

Posted by: deek Apr 21 2009, 07:45 PM

Give it another 20 years...paper publishing is dying...

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 21 2009, 08:46 PM

What people are saying and what they're doing are two different things.

I worked in a print shop at a fairly large medical company for years. You heard a lot about how the company was going green, blah blah blah, but man... we printed tons of documents every year. Literally. Most were distributed in our building. (Though a few were sent off-site.) We printed dozens of 500+ page manuals every month.

The print industry might be taking a beating right now, but that's mostly because more people are printing their shit in-house. Why pay a 100%+ markup to a printer when you can lease a high volume color or black and white printer for a fraction of the cost?

-paws

PS I too love the smell of a real book.

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 22 2009, 12:59 PM

I work for a mid-sized, publicly traded technology company. As a money-saving measure I suggested our parent corporation quit publishing physical documents. Now we've gone the route of electronic newsletters and all of our product support documentation is downloaded through our websites and intranet. We do get a handful of customers who ask us to send them a physical document. We suggest they take the PDF to Kinko's. If we didn't do it this way we'd have to print up a new batch of expensive docs every time any upgrade was made (which is weekly).

I love real books too but, in my head, there's a difference between an RPG book (which is a glorified instruction manual with higher production values) and a "book"-book. You won't see me with my copy of Street Magic on my lap, a cup of tea in my hand, a pipe stem in my mouth and mumbling "hmm, I see" to myself. I get in, get what I need and get out. If I had some sort of palm device with all of my manuals and guidebooks in one place that I could carry about with me I'd be a happy camper.

I also hate tea.

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 22 2009, 01:23 PM

With a big 24' widescreen I can read PDFs as well as a book, and they are easier to use when preparing a session - and much more portable.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 22 2009, 01:50 PM

Good to hear that some companies have the backbone and good sense to commit to this sort of thing.


I know what your problem is, you forgot your smoking jacket and high back chair!



I hate coffee, personally.

-paws

Posted by: Zenfar Apr 22 2009, 01:54 PM

We will see thin tablet PCs for under $400 that have a screen that does digital ink, lcd, and multi-touch. Maybe by the summer but defiantly by next year. They will be based on the NVidia Ion platform and be able to play video at 720p or better. They will also work for gaming and other multimedia applications. You either adapt to the future or you fade away...

Posted by: the_dunner Apr 22 2009, 05:13 PM

In fairness, when I started as Shadowrun Ebook Developer, I wasn't working on developing any other Shadowrun projects. So, there was another "editor" added. That's since changed, so I'm splitting my time between PDFs and print work.

So, currently, there are four Shadowrun PDF exclusives available.

The first was Digital Grimoire, at 18 pages. Almost all of the content was rules.
The second was Bad Moon Rising, at 37 pages. This one's a scenario.
The third was The Rotten Apple: Manhattan, at 30 pages. This is entirely game world information, without game mechanics.
The fourth is SRM3-00: Everyone's your Friend, at 27 pages. This one is a scenario, and it's free.

There are several more projects that are in progress, including monthly Shadowrun Missions scenarios (at $3.95 each), among other things. But, they're all well over the 10 page size that you explicitly mentioned. (Generally, I target 20-40 pages when developing a PDF-exclusive.)

However, this begs the question -- do you think we're not charging enough? At 20 pages and the $3.95 price point, it's about 20 cents per page. I'll be blunt and admit that our margins on these are extremely thin. I'd love to charge more, but I don't think the market will bear it. (I acknowledge that the production costs for a PDF are lower than print projects, but the sales numbers on PDFs are in now way comparable to print releases.)

Would you rather see smaller PDFs at the same price point, or would you rather continue to see 20-ish page products at a higher price? (Note: We won't necessarily be making either change in the short term. I'm just asking for an opinion.)


Consider buying a netbook (c. $250). I have a 8.9" screen netbook that goes everywhere with me. It's got 120GB of storage, which is dramatically more than is required to carry a complete Shadowrun PDF library along with a broad range of reference materials. Adobe Acrobat starts in less than 3 seconds. It takes a couple seconds more to load up a PDF. If I turn the image sideways and go to full screen mode (built in function of Acrobat), I can hold the netbook like a book, and use my right hand on the pageup/pagedown keys to flip through the book. At 1024x600 on a 8.9" screen, I find the gaming books extremely readable. Netbooks are also now available with 10" or 12" screens, typically with the same screen resolution. I find the 12" ones unwieldy for holding like a book, but if I could find a good deal on a 10" screen, I'd give it some serious consideration.

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 22 2009, 06:02 PM

Definitely understood.

I also think there's a serious misconception among many gamers about the creative studios behind RPG products. Many gamers, subconsciously or not, equate RPGs with the TSR/WotC company model which was/is the 800lb. gorilla of the industry. That kind of staff power allows for rapid-fire product release which isn't a realistic expectation for a smaller studio, but the 1980s/'90s mentality of "throw everything at the wall until something sticks" hasn't faded yet. I remember the end of the TSR days when it seemed that a new campaign setting was being released bi-monthly and without a concern for quality, need or desire. Some were hits but most weren't. In fact I think they're still doing this, though the packaging is prettier. I can't imagine how a small studio could flood a market with mediocre product and expect to remain afloat.

This is also true of any business. Volume home builders can crank out a neighborhood-sized vinyl village whereas a spec and custom home builder can only realistically build a handful of homes a year. And you can always see the difference in quality.


I think the formula is little more complicated than determining price by the number of pages. For example, Crafty's PDF-exclusive Spycraft 2.0 releases are all around $4 and they're all around the 5-8 page mark, not including legalese or covers. I think they make up the difference by releasing often and this keeps the players coming back. My opinion would be to release more, shorter PDFs on a regular basis than release fewer, longer ones on a semi-regular basis. For example, Digital Grimoire could have been split into three shorter PDFs for $4 each: perhaps 6 pages of new traditions, 6 pages of new spells, 6 pages on spirit or other rules. Regularly released, very short PDFs would also be an opportunity to break from the metaplot and explore what else is going on in the SR Universe without having to devoting the time to developing a new storyline.

The downside of this model is that CGL would need to be releasing on a very predictable, very regular basis. But it would be like comic book fans who go the shop every Wednesday. If the second Thursday of the month was "New Shadowrun PDF Release Day" I think it would generate serious buzz and also be something unique and trend setting.

20-40 page PDF-exclusives are fine and the prices are definitely reasonable but should be the exception, not the rule for PDF-exclusives. But that's just my opinion and I'm sure there are factors that I'm not aware of.


Now there is something I could put on the wedding registry.

Posted by: Lordmalachdrim Apr 22 2009, 07:00 PM

Please keep PDF releases to a minimum. I'm probably in the minority here but they're a pain to read, and a pain at the game table. You either have to pay a second time to print out what you bought (either at a kino's or on your own printer) or use it on a laptop and I've found having laptops (or other computers) at the table a real pain in the but because gamers seem to focus on everything but the game when they have access to their files/internet and it kills the flow of the game.

Another problem I have with them is files are so much easier to lose (delete, corrupt, and so on) then any book I've ever had. I've got game books from 88 that are sill in good shape and see regular use.



Again this is just my opinion and from what I've read I seem to be in the minority, but I thought I'd just throw my thoughts out there.

Posted by: deek Apr 23 2009, 01:18 PM

You (Lordmalachdrim) are probably in the minority on DSF, but I feel pretty sure your thoughts make up the majority of roleplayers in general. Frankly, people in general. Most don't want to curl up to a good PDF...yet many read way more text on screen than they realize. Anyways...

I'd be interested in 10-15 pages worth of exclusive material at the $3.95 price point. Much like Wesley said, 10-15 pages of new spells, traditions, etc for Grimoire would have been well worth it. Adding new vehicles, weapons, gear...I mean, really, PDFs would be a great way to add...I'd probably be less likely to buy fluff, though.

A 30-40 page scenario? I'd say $6.95 would be more than fair. And those that would be interested in those types of PDFs would probably eat that up...

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 23 2009, 03:58 PM

I just want to reiterate that pro-PDF folk are not anti-print. I simply see the PDF as an excellent format to get more material out there more quickly. And even act as a testing ground for popularity. The model I'm thinking of is the monthly comic vs. the trade paperback. The popular stuff gets collected into bound print editions, the stuff that doesn't make the cut in terms of fan recognition... well... it's not disregarded but it isn't collected either. Either way it would be a win-win for everyone.

Here's an idea... Remember those SOTA books for 3rd Edition? What if each chapter had been an individual PDF that was then collected into the final printed book? It's almost more of a magazine or Farmer's Almanac approach where broad topics and ideas are collected into one volume without worrying about a "theme" to tie them together.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 23 2009, 06:14 PM

i suspect the problem there is the lack of a light, portable reading device that can show a whole page at a time.

most probably have the mental image of reading pdfs (specifically the 2+ column layout used in just about any rpg book) by having to scroll up and down as they cant fit the whole page on screen.

heh, i just did a test with a similar sized pdf on my eeepc 900, and its 8.9" screen was not large enough to handle the pages when rotated sideways, without doing some scaling (making the text close to unreadable).

however i guess a 10-11" screen should be able to handle a SR pdf...

so maybe these forthcoming netbooks with foldable screen (holding a eeepc as it was a book was somewhat troublesome) within that screen size could handle work as a rpg pdf reader...

meh, scratch that, i should have measured one of my physical books. 13-14" would do, if standing on end...

Posted by: the_dunner Apr 23 2009, 06:16 PM

Did you put your PDF reader into full screen mode first? If so, then we have different standards for readability. I find the SR PDFs very readable in doing that on identical hardware.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 23 2009, 06:22 PM

full screen yes, but that gave me a slight border (using linux software so i guess i could play around a bit).

after that i tried presentation mode to fit the whole page on screen in one go. that gave me a black border at top and bottom and the text was just barely readable.

Posted by: Necro Sanct Apr 23 2009, 08:50 PM

While I have not always been the biggest fan of landscape layouts, WoTC does the method decently with their pdf versions of Dragon and Dungeon. The issue from March for instance had 5 main articles (19, 11, 10, 8, and 9 pages each) along with 21 pages for the monthly column stuff. The main thing with this is that anything in the pdf is canon material if you want to include it in your game because it is released by WoTC. Shadowrun on the other hand does not have such an option and should not be expected to have something of that scope. While a product such as those two are major pieces of work from WoTC I see no extreme reason that at least 1 mini-pdf a month from Catalyst which covers a specific aspect of the game could not be made available. The Shadowrun, Fourth Edition Compatability list on the website has more than a handful of entries on there that could be reimagined or updated to give players possibly years of one off monthly mini-pdf releases. Fan-made material could be done but at the end of the day it is just that, fan-made material which in most cases goes the way of the dodo even if it is a worthy non-canon edition.

One of my most sore points while I have the website in mind is how it seems to be an afterthought, or perhaps it just falls on the side of being a really bad site overall with little direction in the support department. At times the site seems like nothing more than a product purchasing/convention/chat blog as opposed to a site dedicated to a game worthy of so much more. The whole thing could be set up better to allow for current edition entries on the site directly in edition to monthly pdf releases as suggested above. Nowadays web presence can go a long way in the first impression department or the willingness to actively visit. I find it to be almost a chore to visit the site at all, when I really wish there was a reason to do so even at least monthly.

Posted by: the_dunner Apr 24 2009, 12:50 AM

We're working on it. We're not there yet, but we hope to be.


You realize that's exactly what http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=58911&filters=0_0_1720_0&affiliate_id=4460 is, right? We do have plans for more material in this same vein, though plans are not the same thing as PDFs ready for release.

I'm ashamed to admit it, but my Netbook runs Windows XP. It sounds like we're describing the same phenomenon -- there's a border at the top and bottom, as the 1024 x 600 pixel ratio of the screen is not the same as the ratio of 8.5 x 11 paper. Personally, I find the materials quite readable at this resolution. It doesn't surprise me to see others disagree with me on that matter.

At the moment, 1 a month, in addition to Shadowrun Missions, is not realistic for us -- there are a whole lot of reasons for that. However, we hope to continue a regular schedule of PDF releases that gradually ramps up.

Posted by: Necro Sanct Apr 24 2009, 06:55 AM

Does that mean that more staff priority is focused on Eclipse Phase, Leviathans, Paparazzi *shivers* or Ooze the Cook as opposed to the older IP systems?

Any of the following responses will answer the question for me:
None (possibly see also, A truthful response confirming it.)
A vague response. (possibly see also, A truthful response denying it.)
A truthful response denying it. (possibly see also, A vague response, unless it really is the truth.)
A truthful response confirming it. (possibly see http://www.orgs.bucknell.edu/res_halls/RTK/KRSS/K4/images/bingo%5B2%5D.gif)

Posted by: the_dunner Apr 24 2009, 09:21 AM

No. Actually, it means that the staff is focused on a rather ambitious hard copy Shadowrun release schedule at the moment. I've no involvement in any of CGL's other game lines.

Posted by: Necro Sanct Apr 24 2009, 11:22 AM

Thanks that is a very welcome response. Now to just sort out a way to fenagle the mysterious top secret release schedule out of you *chuckles*.

Posted by: Freejack Apr 24 2009, 12:06 PM

From a desktop standpoint, I'm using a 17" screen I bought for $99 to read PDFs. It's rotated 90* so a PDF is very easy to read. I have a 19" HP monitor at work that I have rotated 90* as well. Drives my co-workers and people who stop by nuts. "What's wrong with you... Oh! It's sideways."

Carl

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 24 2009, 01:58 PM

I want a kindle edition of SR4A core rule books.

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 27 2009, 11:13 AM

I agree with Dire. Holy shit would that be useful. Small, compact, easily browsed around, I'd love it.

Heck, gimme that and DnD 4e on Kindle and I'm set for anything. Maybe add a dice roller app and I'm done.

Posted by: deek Apr 27 2009, 12:57 PM

I don't know about SR4, but for DnD, just get yourself an iTouch/iPhone and http://iplay4e.appspot.com/characters/ You'll have all your characters with you, not to mention the ability to roll all the dice you'd ever need to!!!

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 27 2009, 01:14 PM

ah, but see, I'd need an iphone / itouch. I'm still rocking it with my 2004 era ipod shuffle, so...

Posted by: deek Apr 27 2009, 02:52 PM

I figured since you were wanting a kindle for gaming books, you could splurge the rest of the way and make the rest of your gaming needs fully portable:)

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 27 2009, 04:02 PM

Ah, I already have a Kindle Christmas present

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 28 2009, 07:24 PM

i wonder if SR sized pdfs would be readable on this...
http://www.liliputing.com/tag/skytone-alpha-680

Posted by: the_dunner Apr 29 2009, 03:11 AM

With a 7.1" 800 x 480 resolution display, you certainly wouldn't be able to fit a full page on it. Also, as the liliputing article indicates, the $250 price point seems remarkably inconsistent with the rest of the industry. For that price, I can get a Dell Mini 9 with an 8.9" display at 1024 x 600 running Ubuntu.

Posted by: nezumi Apr 29 2009, 02:21 PM

Hey, think if we started photocopying their books we could get them to stop selling the hardcopies as well?

Posted by: Alex Apr 29 2009, 06:13 PM

nezumi,

That was great! :cookie:

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 29 2009, 07:36 PM

Very classy there Nezumi. *golf clap*

Posted by: Phototoxin Apr 29 2009, 08:25 PM

Do WOTC want to loose money?

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 29 2009, 10:53 PM

How I mine fish? WotC wants to protect its IP. It's as simple as that. A point that I came across today is that there was a lot of DnD material, including material from Dragon & Dungeon on Scribd.com - that might add into things too. From (other) people's browsings, it's sort of had its intended effect; what material is out there for say, Arcane Power is half-assed and obviously photoshopped.

Anyhoo, WotC has stepped up to the plate and offered http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20090428 for free on their website. For those of you who actually give a damn.

Posted by: nezumi Apr 30 2009, 01:10 PM

Thank you, thank you. I'm here all night.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 30 2009, 05:40 PM

sadly, said dell do not have a rotateable screen.

sure, holding a netbook like a actual book may work, but as its still only one screen (vs "two" in a physical book), its a whole lot of waste for for a small loss of comfort and portability...

Posted by: Floyd May 3 2009, 07:15 AM

Hi, my name is Floyd, and I am a Ludite.

Right now, I am reading this forum of a hardcopy from a dot-matrix printer, and have a baboon type my response. I am the father of two children, read: money vaccuums, mostly inept at most computer related operations, and have gremlins at a rating of at least 2. It is a 50-50 chance as to whether any computer system actually has me in it, including governmet data bases.

I am the last person who should support PDF books, but I do. And I also support dead tree books, although I would prefer chopped up, recycled Ayn Rand novels for paper stock. But when it come right down to playing a pnp game at a table, all I use is books made of p (paper not pencils).

I have tried using a laptop, but the page not fitting the screen is a problem. Also, I can jump pages fast by hand, and don't have to make the baboon type what I want. The laptop is clunky, and I have to be more careful with it. I left "Sprawl Sites" next to an open window during a spring shower and was able to save it. I have faired less lucky with electronics and water. I possess fantastic ham fists, which is why I have the monkey typing. I need one of those dialing wands for fat fingers. This rules out anything smaller than box of matches.

The PDF's I own I printed out, then shelved when I bought the manufactured copy of the book. I don't know who I speak for, other than myself, but I fear the loss of books (and book stores since I can't navigate Amazon.com and Pay-pal doesn't know who I am, again).

I tried to use e-ware at my table and I am terrible at it, and the cost to switch and over come my handicaps makes it not worth it. I am not bashing PDF's. I am begging: Please don't take away books.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 4 2009, 06:21 AM

As ebook readers go, I prefer http://www.foxitsoftware.com/ebook/ and http://www.foxitsoftware.com/ebook/.

Electronic paper is easy on the eyes, now if only it weren't so damned expensive.