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Dumpshock Forums _ General Gaming _ The Dark Eye

Posted by: otaku mike Jan 22 2004, 12:39 PM

I'm creating a thread of it's own, since I didn't have replies to my question in the "what do you play" thread.

Basically, I had an early version of the game 16 years ago, a french version that came in a black boxed set.
It was really light content, initiation to RPG. At the time, I didn't understand what it was, and I was really annoyed that there was no board or miniatures to play with
Anyway, the rules were very simple, almost flimsy. There was 2 softcover books.
One was an adventure book, with the first half being a one player adventure story, with those numbered choices at the end of each paragraph, and the other half a short adventure (very D&D... Door, monster, treasure, repeat...)
The second was the rules (mostly combat, spellcasting, monsters stats and experience). It used a single D20.

There was no background info, no world described to play in.

So, my questions are:
Is it translated in english now?
For those who know the version I'm referring to, did the game change a lot in 16 years?
Does it have a gameworld now? and is it interesting?
Would it be fair to label it a D&D clone?

Thanks for your help to quench my nostalgic curiosity

Posted by: Adam Jan 22 2004, 03:13 PM

Yes, the English version is available now, and the first supplement - two adventures in one book - will be available in late Feb/Early March, assuming everything goes right. Which, frankly, hasn't been happening with this book [I did the layout for it...] so cross your fingers.

I'm not familiar enough with the history of the game to say how much it's changed, but it does have a game world - the world of Adventuria, and the next supplement after the upcoming after will be the World of Adventuria sourcebook.

D&D clone? I don't particularly think so. I don't have a great grasp on the rules, but from reading the core book and the adventures I've been working on, it has a much less "epic" feel than D&D typically does.

Posted by: DigitalMage Jan 23 2004, 12:50 PM

You might want to check out the website:
http://www.thedarkeye.com/
It has quite a bit of info to give you a flavour of what the game entails (not that I have read it )

Posted by: otaku mike Jan 24 2004, 02:40 AM

Thanks, I already checked out the website.
It answered a few things, but mostly, I was looking for replies from people who play it, and know about the game since a loooong time to provide me comparison.

Anyone?

Posted by: MYST1C Jan 24 2004, 10:15 AM

Well, The Dark Eye (or Das Schwarze Auge respectively) is not my favourite RPG (as to me pure fantasy is pretty boring) but I've played it occasionally for the last ~10 years.

Considering that you say your experience with the game dates back 16 years I guess that it was 2nd Edition.
The new English release is based on (but not identical with) the current 4th Edition German rules.

My experience is mostly with 3rd Edition rules but as there were quite some changes between 3rd and 4th Ed someone who only knows an even earlier version should notice many differences!
Many things have changed concerning magic and combat rules, the game world has evolved (the most important storyline was the "Borbarad"-campaign, an epic story about a nearly god-like evil wizard trying to conquer the continent of Aventuria that went through several adventure-books taking more than five real-world and over 10 in-game years).
The IMO most important change the 4th Edition brought was the new character creation and advancing system:
Character creation is no longer based on dice and strict character classes but instead uses a point system very much like GURPS or SR Compedium which results in a more time-consuming but also far more flexible choice of character.
Characters no longer advance by gaining "Stufen" (levels) through experience points but instead these xp can be used directly to advance character abilities (there are still levels recorded based on total xp but this is only meant as a tool to make the overall power of characters comparable).

Concerning the "D&D vs. TDE"-question:
The official homepage has something to say about this IIRC - IMO comparison ends with the fact that both games are based on Tolkien-style medieval fantasy.
D&D is rather high fantasy with loads of magic and nonhuman races. TDE has much less of this.
Humans are the dominant race of Aventuria (and even the #2, Orks, are a much smaller people, not to speak of Elves and Dwarfs), magicians are rare and magic items (which any D&D-characters seems to have to some extent) are extremly uncommon.

What I like most about TDE is the extremly detailed game world that has been created over the last 20 years and that is still evolving (as constantly time goes on in-game, history being written by adventure modules, novels and the official magazine, since 1st Edition ~30 in-game years have passed) - wars are fought, borders change, kings die, inventions are made, ancient secrets discovered...

[edit]
The events of the aforementioned Borbarad-campaign have not yet happened in the English version of the games as for that release time has been turned back several years (21 Haal vs. 33 Haal in the German version) - it is obviously planned to release all the old adventures a second time in English.
[/edit]

Posted by: otaku mike Jan 25 2004, 03:47 AM

Thank you very much for the detailed reply, that was most interesting and informative.
Based on what you say, I can see that my pun about TDE being a D&D clone is no longer relevant. I thought that because of the many similitude of game mechanics (D20, levels, classes,etc...) but since most of them have changed, I see that it is its own game now.
Thanks again.

[edit]
I saw on the official website that Rob Boyle is the US version game developper. I guess that helps to explain why we currently have a 8-9 months gap since the last SR book release...
[/edit]

Posted by: Panzergeist Jan 25 2004, 08:56 AM

I just played a game of Dark Eye tonight. It is indeed very :low" fantasy, especcially compared to D&D. Magic is rare, and magical characters start out weak, and from what I understand they get stronger quite slowly. The little magic they do have is more utility than combat; the mage I played tonight would have gotten his ass whooped by the warrior character. In the game world, not only is magic extremely scarce, but people are just generally poor, so most people don't have weapons which are used only for fighting. Dual-use weapons like bows, spears, and heavy axes are much more common, since they are good for more than just war. Humans are the dominant race, dwarves are only slightly more different from humans than human societies are from each other, and elves are so alien that most people wouldn't consider having one in the party to be worth the bother. Elves don't have cities, they can only choose from 2 classes, and they just can't understand humans any more than humans can understand dragons. And as was mentioned, character improvements are purchased with XP; levels are gained after every certain number of XP, but these levels serve only as an indication of a character's power, like total karma in SR; gaining a level means nothing in and of itself.

Posted by: MYST1C Jan 25 2004, 11:11 AM

QUOTE (otaku mike)

I thought that because of the many similitude of game mechanics (D20, levels, classes,etc...) but since most of them have changed, I see that it is its own game now.

TDE still uses D20 but in a AFAIK completely unique way:
A standard skill check is not rolled with one but three D20.
It works like this: every skill has three corresponding attributes it is based on. You actually roll three attribute checks (less or equal means success). The points you have in the skill can be used to compensate for missing points in the attribute checks.

Checks in combat are rolled with a single D20.

Magic spells are used like skills.

Posted by: MYST1C Jan 25 2004, 11:58 AM

QUOTE (Panzergeist)

I just played a game of Dark Eye tonight. It is indeed very :low" fantasy, especcially compared to D&D.

One system I know to rate the level of fantasy uses a scale that has "realistic" (more or less real medieval time with a bit of magic) on one end and "high fantasy" (magic is everywhere, loads of races and species) on the other.
I would try to rate TDE as follows:
[realistic] Ars Magica -> TDE -> Lord of the Rings -> D&D -> Earthdawn [high]

QUOTE

Magic is rare, and magical characters start out weak, and from what I understand they get stronger quite slowly. The little magic they do have is more utility than combat; the mage I played tonight would have gotten his ass whooped by the warrior character. In the game world, not only is magic extremely scarce, but people are just generally poor, so most people don't have weapons which are used only for fighting.

In TDE starting characters are generally very weak. Being level 1 means you are a beginner.
A knight has just gotten his title, a warrior has just passed exams at his academy, a wizard leaves his magic college for the first time...
Concerning equipment it is possible to start the game rich in money or possession but this requires buying appropriate advantages in character creation (for example, every profession has two sets of starting equipment, one standard and one that requires you to spent extra points).
Nevertheless, the characters will become pretty strong over time. They are called "heroes" not only in the rules but also in-game. Going out into the world is not common. Most people are farmers or craftsmen (if they are city-dwellers).
So people trained to fight, capable of using magic or conjuring miracles from the gods that leave home to roam the world, fight monsters, solve riddles and write history are rare and special...

QUOTE

Humans are the dominant race, dwarves are only slightly more different from humans than human societies are from each other

Actually, dwarves are different from humans and even the various dwarf "nations" are quite different from each other but this is beyond the scope of the basic rules.

QUOTE

and elves are so alien that most people wouldn't consider having one in the party to be worth the bother. Elves don't have cities, they can only choose from 2 classes, and they just can't understand humans any more than humans can understand dragons.

The makers of TDE 4th edition wanted to get one thing clear: Elves are not humans with pointy ears that can fight and use magic!
They are a completely different (and in fact, compared to humans and dwarves, very alien) species. They live incredibly long, use magic in a unique way and have completely different understandings of life, death or the passing of time...

The TDE rules leave many questions but the reason is simple:
What has been published in English so far are only the basic rules.
The complete rules of TDE are separated into four volumes:
- Basic Rules
- Advanced Rules (containing a variety of optional rules, more complex combat system, many new races, cultures and professions)
- Magic Rules (giving mor flexibility to creating magical characters, how to make magical artifacts, etc.)
- Gods & Demons (giving information about "heaven" and "hell" of TDE, clerics, gods and demons)

Eventually, Elves and Dwarves will get their own (or propably two separate) supplement, explaining their cultures (for example, there are actually four very different elven cultures in Aventuria) and providing more character professions to choose from.

The big problem with TDE is that its biggest advantage over other fantasy rpgs, the extremly detailed game world (maps of the whole continent exist, almost every town and bigger village has been described in some supplement or adventure, there is a world creation myth and history of the various races dates back thousands of years), is available only in German.

Posted by: Adam Jan 25 2004, 10:48 PM

QUOTE (otaku mike)

I saw on the official website that Rob Boyle is the US version game developper. I guess that helps to explain why we currently have a 8-9 months gap since the last SR book release...

Rob's role with Dark Eye is much less intensive than it is with SR, since all the material is translated, not newly created. Dark Eye is taking some of his time from SR [and some of mine, too] but not a large amount, I don't believe.

Posted by: otaku mike Jan 26 2004, 03:16 AM

Thank you very much guys.
From what you say, I think the Dark Eye is surely closer to Warhammer than D&D.

One last question:
Who are the bad guys in that world, if there are any?

Posted by: MYST1C Jan 26 2004, 12:35 PM

The main "enemy" were, for a long time, the Orks.

As a result of the Borbarad-campaign, a large area in the south-east of Aventuria is occupied by demonic forces and constant battle of variable intensity is waged on the borders to the free lands.
But as I said, these events have yet to happen in the English release.

You can of course take an evil wizard in his tower or a malevolent dragon as the bad guy in an adventure, but there a many TDE-adventures that have more "mundane" plots:
Solving a detective case in the tropical city of Al'Anfa, stumbling into the middle of a inquisition-vs-heretics conflict in some remote monastery, being involved in political intrigues in the capital city of Gareth, exploring sailing routes to the southern islands for the Stoerrebrandt trading house...
Or simply helping the mayor of a small village defeat the wolves that hunt the farmers in the surrounding area. (And discovering that the wolves are sent by the shaman of a nomadic tribe who wants revenge because some villagers abused his daughter as she wanted to to a little trading...)

TDE does not use the rather flat black-and-white/good-vs-evil pattern so common to fantasy.
Many plots revolve around politics, and many adversaries the characters will fight are not monsters of some kind but humans like you and me.
There is conflict between humans and orks, humans and elves, humans and dwarfs, humans and humans (as the continent of Aventuria is splitted into various human countries of which many are not very good friends...)

As I said: TDE has one of the most complex and detailed game worlds I have ever seen, where an infinity of stories waits to be told.
Unfortunately, that world has not yet been made available to anglophone players...

Posted by: otaku mike Jan 26 2004, 04:02 PM

the level of details reminds me of the world of Glorantha for Runequest. Of course, this is a completely different mood, but the world was very detailed.

Well, I guess the only lame thing with this game is the name of the world... Aventuria... arf

Anyway, I'm looking forward to see the translations now. Thanks again MYSTIC.

Posted by: MYST1C Jan 26 2004, 05:43 PM

QUOTE (otaku mike)

Well, I guess the only lame thing with this game is the name of the world... Aventuria... arf

Actually, Aventuria is not the name of the world.
Aventuria is the name of one continent (roughly the size of Europe) that is part of a world called "Dere" (which is an anagram of "Erde", German for "Earth", so I don't know how the world is called in the English version).
Aventuria is very isolated, surrounded on three sides by dangerous oceans (the Northern one frozen) and on the fourth side there are giant mountains.
Only legends are known about the land behind those mountains.

One other continent of Dere has been described so far - Myranor or the "Golden Land" from where the human settlers came to Aventuria thousands of years ago.
It is a spin-off of TDE (and available only in German) with somewhat different rules, a completely different magic system, other races and is generally more high-fantasy than regular TDE.
There is some very limited trade between Aventuria and Myranor but due to an ancient curse by the god of oceans no Myranorian can travel over the sea to Aventuria.
The biggest political entity of Myranor, the Empire, does not recognize the Aventurian governments and considers Aventuria a rogue colony.

(And BTW, the name sounds less silly in the German version. Aventuria is of course very similar to "adventure", but to a German "Aventurien" is not the same as "Abenteuer"

)