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Posted by: Mana Child Jan 27 2004, 09:17 PM

Hi, i was wondering what the hero system is, what its like and what games use it.
And i'm also wondering whether its easier or harder to learn than shadowrun.
Note: My username used to be cryptkeeper but i had to make a new one becuase of email/password/forum/password problems.

Kind Regards

Mana Child

Posted by: Johnny Demonic Jan 28 2004, 02:04 AM

Well from what I heard years back it is somewhat similiar in parts to GURPS. You buy powers, advantages, and disadvantages. I know there is a fantasy hero, cyberhero, and other genres to it.

I know they co-own this Fuzion system with R. Talsorion Games. I heard Fuzion is like the Interlock (Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekaton) system cross breed with Hero.

Here is a link for their website:
http://www.herogames.com/

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jan 28 2004, 03:03 AM

The HERO system is used by champions, and a few add-on with the 'hero' named added in (fantasyhero, cyberhero, etc).

Basically it's a 'generic' system where power modifiers are what give powers their distinctiveness. So a gun in the hero system might be something like:

Ranged Killing Attack
Autofire
30 charges
Only at full power (you can't shoot half a bullet)
Focus (it's the gun that does the work, not you)
Gestures (you can't use a gun while tied up, unlike eye-beams)

It can take some getting used to since, the power limiters are really what the 'character' of the system is built on. If you don;t like simple math, best aviod it.

Fuzion takes the worst elements of HERO and the worst of Interlock and creates a horrible zombie horse of a system.

Posted by: Ditaki Jan 28 2004, 03:19 AM

Hi,

I just got HERO yesterday. First things first, you only need the core book to play. That's good. The Core Book is about 400 pages hardcover, so, it seriously is the size and thickness of a high school textbook. Light still, but really...imposing.

The book (I've only gotten about 60 or so pages into it) throws numbers around, as long as you can keep the numbers and the abbreviations correct, you can read it with little trouble. (Just remember that 13- means roll lower than 13 on 3d6, the main dice roll and that most rolls are based off of the (9+(stat)/5=number you roll less than) idea)

Looks like it's a really solid system though, and definatly worth if you want to design either a superhero game (HERO was Champions for four editions ya know) or something that you want to do (basically, HERO let's you create a world/system/characters that are pretty much going to be balanced...which is pretty good).

Clean simple style and organized well, but really imposing.

Posted by: Mana Child Jan 28 2004, 08:19 AM

Whats the full name of the Core Rule book?

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jan 28 2004, 09:22 AM

I think it's the 'Hero system rulebook version X' Though you can also buy a copy of champions and get the rules too (You really need some sample characters, and stuff).

Posted by: bwdemon Jan 28 2004, 10:23 PM

Champions no longer includes the HERO System rules, it's a supplement for superhero gaming under the HERO System. The core book is called "HERO System, 5th edition". It's a thick, harbound book with a black cover and a green man inside a hex on the front. Occasionally, it's known as the Green Man Book.

Posted by: The Burning One Feb 6 2004, 07:03 PM

HERO System by itself is an utterly useless work of pure genius. At least that's my opinion so keep that in mind when reading the rest of this.

The genius part is that you can build anything and I mean anything using the rules presented in the base book. We’re talking everything from spells, to super abilities, to vehicles all the way through to worlds and dimensions. To date, between myself and three of my associates we have been able to create game mechanics for everything from black powder muskets down to toothpaste. If you can dream it up and have managed to wrap your head around the system you can make it. End of story.

The useless part is that virtually nothing is defined. With just the base book you get a few samples of what you can do but if you’re looking to start a game you literally have to build it from scratch. They give you the rules for doing the building and a system in which to run it once you’re done, but if you’re looking at starting a HERO System game I’d say give yourself about 6 months to a year of prep time to build your world before trying to get the game started. Until you’ve had to start from scratch you can’t imagine how long it takes to define basic things. Not because they’re individually complicated but simply because there’s so many of them.

This was partially solved by the source books they’ve released which contain large amounts of pre-generated items or abilities but then that kind of gets away from the whole point of being able to design it to your tastes. If you’re looking for a system with pre-designed items and abilities there are probably others out there that are a lot less cumbersome.

Now don’t get me wrong the hero system flows nicely once you’ve done the groundwork the problem is to get to the point where it will run smoothly you need to have done a lot of work in advance.

Anyway just my 2

TBO

Posted by: Rev Feb 6 2004, 11:02 PM

Heh, are there any games harder to learn than Shadowrun?

I played Hero:Champions quite some time ago and had a fair bit of fun. Unfortunately I sort of broke the system by putting basically all of my points into dexterity (I could move in all 12 phases, and really only area attacks could hit me), and pretty much wrecked the game, so be sure you don't let anyone do that. But it was fun for a bit and really easy to get started.

It was really great the way you could plug together all these different power modifiers to come up with almost anything you could concieve of.

Want to have a plasma beam shooting out of your eyes powered by drinking the juice from canned peaches? It's right there in the rules how much it should cost.

How about guy with a gizmo that constantly drains the energy of people and things nearby and at somewhat random intervals shoots powerful out bolts of electricity to the nearest target within 20 meters? No problem.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 7 2004, 05:35 AM

The trick to dealing with dex monsters is area effect attacks, since you are shooting at the Hex, not the DEX monster. So get yourself a blaster with a multipower that has at least one area effect power (entagles work well) and you are set.

Posted by: Zazen Feb 14 2004, 10:19 PM

Burning One is right, it can simulate almost anything (time-control powers seem to be lacking, though), right down to toothpaste. It's also quite math-heavy so you'll want "Hero Creator" or some other character generator. Creating characters by hand is a huge hassle.


Also, the Hero system is really easy to break so you need a GM who is competant enough to restrict the stuff that needs restricting. I played one game with a character modelled after "The Great and Powerful Turtle" from the Wild Card books (the character stays in his heavily armored vehicle "shell" and uses his telekinesis to fly it around and do stuff). The way that points multiply when you put them into a vehicle made him nigh-invulnerable. He was disgustingly overpowered; the GM started making NPCs specifically cooked up to kill me and was still unable to deal me even a single point of damage. It got so stupid and boring that the game ended after a few sessions.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 15 2004, 05:30 AM

Yep, that's the real problem with HERO, to get started you already have to know what you are doing... A HERO based game can quickly be ruined by the GM not really 'getting' some of the math the makes up the system.

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Feb 15 2004, 07:56 AM

Enter Sunday... I love the Hero system. It and I have a deep understanding. It is the most flexible system there is, the only one to ever pass my test. My test is a simple one, pick 3 characters, from books movies, real life whatever, and then make them. Don't make aproximations, don't compromise, just make them. Hero systems is the only one I know that does that.

The system is simple to me but I'm told rather dizzying to learn, therefore I suggest you learn it by playing in the game of a GM who knows it, when the Gm knows the combat system, combat flows very well, very cinematic.

One thing. "Technically" you are supposed to pay points for gear. Oldest house rule I know: You don't pay points for anything that is available wihin that characters "normal" society. We pay cash for swords and armor in Fantasy Hero, not points.

The base system is complete, they just released a new edition, 5th. They tightened up a few loose rules and cleaned things up.
The other books are not mandatory, they are "setting" books. Fantasy Hero, Champions (Supers), Danger International (Spy), that sort of thing, they sometimes have rules about setting specific topics but the basic rules and your brain will allow you to make your own or deduce theirs without needing the book, but they do make life easier.

Any freeform game I run is Heros, it's the most flexible and since it's all the same base system, a wizard can mix with a cyber-soldier effortlessly as they're built in the same system. I only look to other games when I like the world, the idea, the mood. Shadowrun would easily be replicated in Hero, they made a cool world, let's give their system a chance, hence we use the SR system, same thing for Mage and Vampires, we use WW.

I feel secure enough to say I can safely answer any question about the Hero system though I may be fuzzy on certain rules that got tweaked in 5th ed, not having read it from cover to cover yet.

Sunday

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 15 2004, 09:43 AM

Hmm, there were rules somewhere for not paying for gear, that's what the 'familiarities' were for. You got familairity small arms, so you could use all 'regular' small arms...

[edit]
Besides, HERO has some of the kewlest 'exploits' evar like Planet Man, Deadman, and The Landlord

Planetman has life support (so he can life in space) and FTL travel. He also has enough shrinking power to shrink a planet sized mass down to something small enough to fit in his pocket. If you anger him, he'll take Jupiter out of his pocket and throw it at you (unshrinking it the the process).

Deadman is, well, dead. He dosen't really do anything other than float (he sorta flies) around and, well, be dead. His power is the he is about 2^48 times as scary as a normal person. and he's attracted to evil (he slowly floats in the direction of evildoers). Most evildoers repent on the spot when Deadman floats up.

The Landlord owns the universe. It's his heroic base of operations, and he has billions of loyal followers. Your waittress, that guy pumping your gas, the girl with the puppy, the old guy feeding the pigeons; yep they all pay homage to the Landlord.
[/edit]

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 15 2004, 03:32 PM

why oh why did i start to think about freedom force (the computer game) when i read the "heroes" crusher bob described...

hmm, after some investigation into this game system im interested to say the least. im hopeing to pick up a copy in the near future

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Feb 16 2004, 07:10 AM

Eh eh, Crusher refers to the "being all powerful" section of the manual where they jump right to the munchkin magic and sa you should coax your GM into giving you an ungodly amount of points and they they list a few examples =)

I believe the description of one guys disads ran something like: Sits in the middle of the universe gibbering. Is hunted by every sentient lifeform in the universe and takes damage from being alive. All of his powers only work while he's at the center of the universe except for his teleport which only works when he's not and takes him to, you guessed it, the center of the universe.

My favorite is planet man, he throws planets =)

Sunday

Posted by: Nova Feb 17 2004, 03:10 PM

You missed the best part of the "gibbering at the center of the universe" guy. His powers are "ungodly amounts of Xray vision" and a planet destroying spell. So he sits in the middle of the universe, gibbering, using his teleportation to get him back to the center of the universe (which is the only place the rest of his powers work). If you piss him off, he finds your planet and blows it up.

This is an example of a character gone wrong btw...not the typical.

Nova

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 17 2004, 03:45 PM

and most likely have very high amounts of points behind him. no sane gm would allow a gamebreaker like that to stay around if it was a pc (a npc godlike creature in the galactus class is something else )...

Posted by: Ditaki Feb 18 2004, 01:06 AM

Wow. I think you may have just created a low-key, non-sanity inducing Azathoth...wow.

Posted by: kryton Feb 18 2004, 01:12 AM

I played cyberhero way back in 93' when I was dating a chick in Dallas. It was a fun system and we had a really good GM. The players were about as exciting as wet wall paper and the combat took forever. It was fun but combat took a while. So far my favorite combat game is Cyberpunk by RTalslorian games. The to hit was simple and quick but very very deadly. You didn't pull out your gun lightly. Ironically the developer Mike Pondsmith went to work for Microsoft as a game developer. Cyberpunk 2020 is a elegant system overall but the character creation part of it is clunky. If they got rid of the "special archteype skills", I think the game would be better. Solo's tended to be combat monsters.

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 18 2004, 05:00 PM

i think they are planing to toss it out the door whenever they get the next version out (if that ever happens). there was allso some talk about some optional rules on how you could mix and match special skills...

Posted by: sable twilight Feb 20 2004, 10:52 PM

What I liked about the Hero System is that is taught me do differentiate between the actual effect and special effect of something, and, along with Amber Diceless, that everything had a cost associated with it. It is one of the best systems for running a Superhero or cinematic style game, though it would get too cumbersome for much else.

Posted by: bwdemon Feb 21 2004, 03:17 AM

Nah, it isn't that cumbersome. When you use HERO for normal games instead of superheroic games, things even out and you lose the crazy cinematics. Normal characteristic maxima corrects the biggest source of slowdowns/cinematics (attributes) and technological limits keep gear from getting too out of whack. The hit location tables really speed up combat, as well (won't see too many people taking too many hits).

The single most important thing to any HERO games is the GM's ability to set and enforce limits. A sizable group of players think they should be able to kill everything everytime with one pull of a trigger and able to put experience wherever they please, regardless of consequences to the game. Of course, any game suffers when players have no self-control or respect for the campaign.

Posted by: sable twilight Feb 21 2004, 04:34 PM

They've added hit locations? (It's been since about 3rd ed Champions or so since I've picked up a Hero system book) Interesting. I was already getting the urge to pick up a new copy of the core rules when I read this thread, now even more so. I could probably still use a lot of my old sourcebooks couldn't I? I doubt many of the core rules or even values for stats and powers have changed, have they?

Yes, being able to set limits as a GM was always important in the Hero system. I remember that being emphasized even in the earlier editions. The nice thing was, if I remember correctly, is that you could just put an overall cap, such as no base attribute higher then X or powers with more then Y dice in them, and it pretty much balanced out across the board. No having to micromanage the power level for each ability, if I remember. It still pretty much that way? I also remember them adding the little magnifying glass and stop signs next to powers that could be readily abused. That was nice too.

Posted by: Zazen Feb 23 2004, 09:35 AM

I played 4th edition and I don't remember hit locations there either. Must be new.

All I really remember is invulnerable vehicles, 25,000,000 die move-throughs, really cheap mach 10 noncombat movement rates, exploits for infinite-dice energy blasts, and damage shields that did 80,000 points of knockback. All under the 75 active point limit.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 23 2004, 02:19 PM

The hit location system has been there for some time, first showed up in fantasy hero 1st ed, maybe?

While fun to manipulate numbers in HERO, I would never use something like that in the game, what would be the point?

Posted by: bwdemon Feb 23 2004, 10:04 PM

Champions never used hit locations. The HERO Sytem has used them (or at least offered them) for quite a while now, IIRC (at least since 4th and possibly earlier). The earliest Champions edition I played was... I think 2nd? The big blue box with two guys fighting on the front? May have been 1st, but I'm not sure. If I ever find my old editions, I'll post whether they had hit lcoations or not...

Zazen, sounds like your GM/Players didn't read the rules too carefully or care to implement them. The limits on active points would've done away with your problem areas. Noncombat movement is still pretty cheap, compared to combat, but it will eat up a significant portion of a character's points at that level.

Posted by: Zazen Feb 25 2004, 05:29 PM

Posted by: The Burning One Feb 25 2004, 06:02 PM

When you say Active Point limit you're talking about the points used by the power after all positive modifiers are added and before all negative modifiers right?

As such if you had a 60 point power (say a 4D6 RKA) with say Armour Piercing (+1/2 Positive Modifier) and Beam Attack (-1/4 Negative Modifier) the Active Point total would be 90 not 75.

I mean I've seen some of the stuff you can do and am pretty familiar with the system. If those were correct given the active point limitations I'm quite interested in seeing how they pulled that off.

Aside from the No END Cost, Continuous, Persistent attacks (which no GM in their sane mind should allow) the idea of having an energy blast with nigh infinite dice seems somehow incorrect.

TBO

Posted by: Zazen Feb 25 2004, 10:27 PM

Posted by: bwdemon Feb 25 2004, 11:06 PM

Posted by: Zazen Feb 25 2004, 11:13 PM

Yes, I know what active points are

Posted by: bwdemon Feb 25 2004, 11:21 PM

Posted by: Zazen Feb 25 2004, 11:43 PM

Posted by: bwdemon Feb 26 2004, 06:27 PM

Do you know what "atmosphere" means? It's the gasseous globe surrounding the Earth. The only thing outside the atmosphere is space (well, until you get to another stellar object). A small ball inside a big ball is still inside the big ball.

I've been digging for my 4th edition books. If/when I find them, I'll post again.

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Feb 27 2004, 05:40 AM

Well the nuclear furnace doesn't work. Well it CAN work but you'd best just corner that GM and slap him with a fish, because he's silly.

Let's look at the first part.

1d6 energy blast "nuclear furnace"
-area effect, 1 hex (the smallest area effect, I don't remember)
-0 end persistent
-continuous
-no range
-affects self only
-does no stun
-always on

Well for starters, a GM might very well rule you get no points for "does no stun" since in light of the fact you're entire thrust is to hurt yourself, this isn't a limitation at all, it's a bonus.

Now the rest of it works great, there you are, nuclear man, the walking ball of nuclear energy. Buck naked and blind and possibly deaf dependings what senses your blast is visible to.

1 point of ED
-only against nuclear furnace damage

You can't buy something as small as 1 pt of ED and put limitations on it.
However, since as long as you have 3 constitution (normal people have 10) you already HAVE 1 ED (Base ED is Con/5) I guess we can skip this part.

1d6 Absorption
-only for nuclear furnace damage
-Half of these points go to the absorption maximum, the other half go to...
1d6 Energy blast "universe vaporizer"
-advantages and limitations to taste

Depending on what SPD this character is, he will encounter problems. Every 12 seconds, his absorption boost will fade. Assuming he was spd 5 (faster than a normal human can ever be) he's absorbing on average 5 body per turn, which is 5 pts. Which is his fade rate. Consider also that some GM rule that if you divert pts to two or more powers, they all suffer to fade rate, which in this case would mean 5 off the EB and 5 off the absorb max. Which would mean he'd never retain anything he absorbed for more than 12 seconds though if he waited till the last second he could unleash the awesome power of 1d6 normal damage on unsuspecting objects.

I say objects because our valiant hero has no idea what he's shooting at, he's surrounded in nuclear fire and hasn't seen a damned thing since his powers manifested. Sadly, he is completely powerless to turn it off.

Can the hero system be munchkin magicked? YOU BETCHA!! Just gotta be careful how you build your powers, because when a GM sees a power like this, he examines it carefully and rewards the player who sought to be a cheesehead with a nice dose of his own power. =)

Sunday

Posted by: Zazen Feb 27 2004, 06:32 AM

Like I said, it's been a while and I was doing it from memory. Fixing the issues you bring up is easy enough. Add invisible power effects to the nuclear furnace (or just define it as something other than a one-hex nuclear globe of pain ), and lower the absorption return rate a mere 1 level down the time chart.

Keep in mind that stuff like this is why I said earlier that the Hero system needs a GM who is competant enough to slap someone who does stuff like this.


Anyway, want to see another one I came up with that I thought was pretty damn amusing?

1d6 Energy Blast "Wrath of the Rubberband Man"
-Damage shield +1/2
-Reduced END 0, persistent +1
-Autofire (w/o attack roll) +1
-Autofire x 5,242,880 +11 1/2
-does no stun

Ouch

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 27 2004, 06:57 AM

Since even normal people have 2 PD they are immune to this attack (the max it'll do in one go is 2 body). A 1 pip Killing attack is a better bet, at least they then need resistant defenses.

...

Any system other that HERO let you have 'vanishing teleport'?

Posted by: Zazen Feb 27 2004, 07:08 AM

You've missed the point of it. Yes, it'll almost never do damage by itself.

Now calculate knockback.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 27 2004, 07:40 AM

I didn't remeber if knockback from autofired attacks stacked or not.

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Feb 27 2004, 08:10 AM

Now if you wanna talk cheese =)

The tachyon shotgun: Dimensional travel, backwards through time, usable against others, ranged.

That's the basic model, feel free to spruce it up a little.

Doesn't matter what your armor is, tell it to the dinosaurs.

But the winner was always.

1pip penetrating speed drain, area effect: The Muddy Fields.

Needless to say, we never let either one get in the game. =)

Sunday

Posted by: Zazen Feb 27 2004, 04:36 PM

The penetrating speed drain doesn't seem powerful at all. Even my first character was wise enough to have a little hardened power defense.

I once tried to get a 1/2 die RKA with two levels of penetrating, area effect of 128 hexes, selective target, and 10 or 20 shot autofire (don't remember). I figured anything without double-hardened armor would be losing 10 or 20 body pretty much automatically. Fun stuff.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 28 2004, 07:17 AM

My time was spent doing stuff like thinking about how much power you would need to destory the earth (the same as blowing an Earth sized hole in a wall that is the thickness of the earth). It's quite easy using move throughs (You only need to be goig a few times the speed of sound) thankfully the OCV penalties are so big that you would never be able to hit the earth anyway (pilots of really fast aircraft rejoice! as long as you are going really fast, you'll be unable to crash, since you can't hit the Earth

Posted by: Zazen Feb 28 2004, 04:40 PM

A good trick I learned was to use move-by instead of move-through. A move-by has damage that is still based on velocity (v/5 instead of v/3 I think), but the ocv penalty is a flat number. That way you can still hit even when going at ridiculous speeds.

Posted by: Stumps Mar 2 2004, 02:19 PM

Posted by: The Burning One Mar 2 2004, 03:37 PM

Posted by: blakkie Mar 2 2004, 03:52 PM

Your SR cellphone doesn't have stats??? Two words: data encryption. Although admittedly for runners it is much better way is to have the encoder/decoder as a seperate device that clamps onto a generic cell since the average runner changes their cell phone more often than they change their underware.

Posted by: The Burning One Mar 2 2004, 05:15 PM

Posted by: Siege Mar 2 2004, 07:47 PM

That could be an interesting way of passing time -- write Hero stats for daily things and stash them in a text file somewhere.

-Siege

Posted by: Stumps Mar 3 2004, 01:43 PM

Posted by: The Burning One Mar 3 2004, 02:26 PM

GURPs didn't let you design your gear they just didn't provide any of it in the base book. They then released all the "Equipment" books which you'd then go out and purchase so you could gear up your characters. As an aside, GURPs vehicles did allow you to design your own vehicles but you'd better have a spreadsheet and a math degree if you wanted to make it work.

HERO system actually has all the rules for designing gear/vehicles/powers/abilities right in the base book. Technically you could go out and buy just that and you'd never have to invest in another book because the rules for Everything are right there in the base book.

Hero system has released a number of supplements with pre-designed equipment/abilities in them but they often try and cover very wide ranges which limits how effective they are. The vehicles book for example covers everything from your hollowed out log canoe to space faring capital ships. This means that while there's a good chance there's something in there you can use it's going to be pretty sparse and you'll still end up filling in the areas that got overlooked.

Like I said, I love the system but I just can't find any practical way of using it.

TBO

Posted by: Stumps Mar 4 2004, 12:03 AM

The way we always used it, when we did, was as a supliment.
If we couldn't find what we wanted, we cracked open GURP's and made it, converted it, or picked it out of the book. Which ever option suited us the best.
The other thing was that we played a heavy game of pick and choose your rules with GURP's, only applying things that we thought were needed and completely disregarding the rest until it was needed.

But yes, in general...GURP's is too general. But if you have your own engine that you built and you need stuff to flesh it out here and there...nothing is better