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Posted by: Vertaxis Dec 1 2009, 01:26 PM

It seems that Games Workshop is smacking down fansites with more copywrite takedown orders. This includes old, out of print, never to be printed again material that brings people into the hobby, and would indirectly net GW fans and cash on new purchases.

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/11/28/games-workshop-decla.html

Read the article and get the files on the alternate site before it gets a takedown order as well.

http://www.headlesshollow.com


There is a lesson here on how not to treat your fans and userbase. Just as White Wolf.


Edit: It's on Slashdot as well. http://games.slashdot.org/story/09/12/01/070232/Games-Workshop-Goes-After-Fan-Site

Posted by: Mr. Man Dec 5 2009, 12:15 AM

Pulling a TSR, eh? Too bad for them it isn't 1997 anymore.

I imagine most Games Workshop customers are used to the poor treatment, but where does GW intend to get new ones?

I'm always amazed when hobby gaming companies pull stunts like this. Like: How is the RPGA even still around? It's been gutted so often by bad decisions from WotC that I can only assume it is now propped up by nothing more than the sheer name recognition of D&D.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Dec 5 2009, 12:53 AM

They probably were losing money because of the international economic crisis, took the easy way out by blaming fansites, and are now trying to sue their way out of the hole.

Posted by: Critias Dec 5 2009, 02:51 AM

I'm no longer surprised by what GW does, and neither should anyone else that really follows wargaming. Since they went public and started worrying about keeping stockholders happy, instead of customers, they just became another douchebag corporate entity instead of the down-to-earth gaming guys I prefer to give my business to.

Posted by: DWC Dec 6 2009, 10:50 PM

The RPGA is around because it is run as a marketing and promotions expense to sell more 4e D&D books. WotC learned almost ten years ago that it was more effective to make it free and use it to draw people into playing their games than to charge for membership and try to keep it afloat.

Posted by: Backgammon Dec 7 2009, 12:18 AM

Actually, you can see GW's financial statements on their Website. They did pretty well thoughout the recession, just as all luxury goods brands typically do. If you've got 600$ to blow of miniatures, you are not the sort of person to be affected by blue collar job losses, you know. It's a niche market for above-average income people. These people always have money.

No, I don't think it's a cash grab, really. My guess is they want to keep a VERY tight reing on their products. They don't like discussion groups. They don't like fan creativity. They want you to get all your knowledge from White Dwarf. They want to control everything about their image. Why? No idea. Maybe the IP guys are permanently traumatised from the Blizzard fuck-up. Shit, I wknow I would be.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Dec 7 2009, 01:40 AM

A number of years ago a friend told me he thought that Games Workshop regarded adult gamers as troublemakers because they could argue with the company about game balance etc. instead of being stupid 12 year olds who would just go and buy every mini.

Posted by: Backgammon Dec 7 2009, 01:24 PM

Can't really disagree. The Warhammer games break down when you play comptetively. I think GW has noticed this, and they have been promoting tournements and talking with people that play in tournements. Maybe they want to do something about it. Maybe not. I certainly think it's true they envision most customers as playing a few friendly games between friends and family, at which point game balance isn't much of a concern since everyone mostly just has fun.

Posted by: Mr. Man Dec 9 2009, 01:42 AM

Maybe, but my point was: Who's participating? Brass tacks: RPGA is about the fat loot, but the increasingly short lifespan of an RPGA campaign makes this less appealing. Today's fat loot will become a lame story that nobody wants to hear faster now than ever before.

I see RPGA is still running at some cons, but in my area that kind of semi-public play no longer exists post-LG. They tell me it is because there are no regional exclusives or premier mods in LFR and I see their point. Why should anyone go to a con or even a game day to play RPGA when they can stay home and play the same mod at the same time in their own basement?

So from where I'm sitting it looks like the RPGA has gotten to the point where it even fails at being "marketing and promotion" unless WotC is looking to break into the coveted moms, cats and imaginary friends market.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Dec 18 2009, 06:01 PM

From my perspective--RPGA fill the FLGS (both shops when they run the events. So it has not happened yet, of course YMMMV depending on the store and how active the gaming community is in your area.

Posted by: HANZO Dec 18 2009, 07:34 PM

The problem is most of these companies get so big they loose sight of the fan base. Enforcing your copyright is one thing. trying to be elitist and be the only outlet/venue for fans is how games loose that fan base.

Posted by: etherial Dec 21 2009, 04:19 PM

I had a friend who had a Stay-At-Home-Mom D&D game Tuesdays at 11:00 AM. One mom would host, one would run, and the other would cook.

Posted by: crash2029 Dec 30 2009, 11:22 AM

That is possibly the most awesome post I have ever seen.

Posted by: ravensmuse Dec 30 2009, 07:32 PM

Maybe it's your areas. Here in Boston, I can think of three places off hand that run RPGA events that are usually pretty full (one of them in a public library, even) and out in Cincinnati, at least two stores there have weekly RPGA groups that play too. On another board with a very small roleplaying community there are at least six or seven people that are part of it. And I've seen the crowds for the Gencon RPGA, so...

I dunno. *shrug*.

On the subject of Warhammer, this blog post comes to mind from an older GW fan: http://www.squaremans.com/?p=9.

Posted by: Backgammon Dec 31 2009, 09:04 PM

Interesting blog post. First, "Gronard" does NOT mean scrotum beard. I don't know where the fuck he got that. It means someone that grumbles a lot.

It's common knowledge (common enough to be on wikipedia) that GW invented games for the sole purpose of selling miniatures. That should basically set your understanding of their approach pretty well. They don't give a shit about anything else other than selling miniatures. So the games don't have to be balanced, no. They just have to exist. Frankly, as is pointed out in the blog, gaming is only one part of "The Hobby". All those countless hours spent painting gluing and modeling are not activities in the way of playing with your army. They are the point. The road is the destination. That's not a bad thing.

The description of their store operating procedure sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I see no problem with how they operate.

It's an interesting perspective on the Blizzard fiasco. I'm guessing the blogger has limited exposure to business practices. Staying away from related but non-core aspects of your business is a very, very common practice. Some companies are opportunistic, yes, but most are not. Their decision to back away from computer gaming was reasonnable business logic. In hindsight of course, they let millions slip away. But at the time of the decision, it probably seemed very sensible.

Anyway, I just got a Steam Tank for Christmas, and as I was assembling I discovered one of the side armour panels had a miscast, and has a huge hole in it. I called Customer Service, he asked me for the number on the back on the box, and told me they were shipping me a new one, and I could keep this one and do whatever I wanted with it. Just like that. So, they may be rough on fan sites, but they do treat customers very well.

Posted by: ravensmuse Jan 2 2010, 02:18 AM

From what I know of the writer of the blog post, he's been involved in various positions in companies for at least the last ten years. He was part of the creative team for LUG(?) when they did the Star Trek and Middle Earth stuff, and now he works for Volition Inc, a video game company, as one of their creative directors.

I seriously am not stalking the guy; he's just open with what he's done and where he's been

I also agree with his point that what GW does with their business isn't wrong, per se, but it is dickish. Using third party hobby stores as a thermometer for interest and then sliding in to push out the hobby store nets them a better bottom line, but it's on the same level as Wal-mart: pure Superman level dickery.

But I don't have a personal stake in this; the closest I'll get to mini-gaming is buying Privateer Press minis to paint and those rumored Cthulhutech minis they've talked about on their boards. I just know from the small brushes I've had with them and their fans that while their stores seem very clean and very professional, it really does give off that weird, Stepford sort of normal that freaks me out. Plus, every time we walked in there (myself and my girl) they were very intent on examining the cute female asking for greenstuff's backside. So, yeah.

But then, their store failed in our area, so...

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 2 2010, 01:54 PM

You know, that really sums up my feelings of their stores, thank you, I couldn't really describe the feelings whenever I walk into one.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 2 2010, 04:25 PM

Well they probably do that to not alarm parents.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 2 2010, 04:48 PM

True, the true source of a 13 year old' income. Gotta keep them happy. Maybe they won't be so scared about little Jimmy painting orcs and elves with the popularity of the Lord of the Rings films.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 2 2010, 05:11 PM

If the stores look really clean cut and professional it will minimize the extent to which parents have a fear in the back of their mind that their kid will become an unkempt underachiever because he painted minis in his youth.

Posted by: ravensmuse Jan 3 2010, 02:20 AM

Like the blog post says, it would help other hobby stores to adopt GW's clean store policy. I know I groused about having to singlehandedly dust every single shelf when I worked in Blockbuster, but I appreciate it now. Some of these stores I've gone to - whoo! That's the least of the problem gamestores have, but that's a long post here in itself.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 3 2010, 04:32 AM

Heh, very true, at least dust is the least of the things, sometimes smells can be a bigger factor, though the store can't help it if their customers are the ones that smelled, especially on some card tourney days.

Oh yeah, a while back I stoped by the Compleat Strategist in NYC while on a weekend trip, talk about an interesting store. The shelves was cluttered with stuff and... I was at a loss of where to start and I didn't have to time to just peruse, not with two female friends (non-gamers) with me at the time.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 3 2010, 05:33 PM

What the hell is up with the smelly people? I never quite grasped that. I mean, I can understand smelly people if we're in the Middle East or some place where body ordors aren't as socially unacceptable, but in the US people are extremely sensitive to body odors.

Posted by: ravensmuse Jan 4 2010, 01:18 AM

My favorite story, and I know I've recounted this one before, was when I was in a gamestore with my significant other, doing some impulse shopping. While I was paying, one of Those Guys was nearby and he spotted my girlfriend playing with a set of feather masks they had set up on the counter for whatever reason. Cue awkward conversation between him and her (entirely one-sided) wherein he explained how he heroically killed a red dragon using nothing but his wits and a Decanter of Endless Water.

What goes through your head to keep talking when someone is obviously not paying attention or cares about your 21st level warrior-mage?

Posted by: Godwyn Jan 4 2010, 01:51 AM

That first statement really shows the lack of familiarity you have with people who play wargames. People I know that play have lost jobs due to job cuts. Others of us buy what we can when other expenses like rent and food are taken care of. Some of us have 600$ or more on miniatures because we have been collecting them for years slowly expanding our armies.

Who are "These people" that always have money. I know maybe one or two people that have an above average income that play. Thats out of like 2 dozen people.

IMHO D&D books are more expensive to maintain than an army. Shadowrun is up there also. Even 15$ for each pdf at the new prices, add in, core, augment, armoury, street magic, seattle, and one other, and thats 90$, thats near what it takes for the average force.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 4 2010, 02:15 AM

I guess he was so excited that he couldn't contain himself. Sometimes if I'm really excited about something I have to make a mental effort not to speak out of turn or inappropriately about it.

Posted by: Freejack Jan 4 2010, 03:14 AM

Well, getting to this point with just 4th Edition dead tree + PDFs runs about $1,400 or so. If you started back at 1st Edition and bought each book as it was released, it'd be closer to $6,000, perhaps a bit more. And that's just Shadowrun. I know I have more than that with D&D, Paranoia, CthulhuTech, Eclipse Phase, All Flesh, Traveller, and others.

Carl

Posted by: ravensmuse Jan 4 2010, 12:23 PM

And I feel bad about it, because I was that kid when I was a teenager, but at the same time, you have to understand where my girl is coming from. When you're a girl, especially an attractive one, you're an open target among the geek crowd, even with your boyfriend standing right there next to you. It's why she doesn't tend to follow me in when I make a stop in to my local stores to poke around for a few minutes - the outright stares, the awkward conversations, the whole store following her around..it's not worth the hassle of standing around with me.

It was actually worse (to bring it back around to the subject) the time we went to the GW we had in our local mall to pick up green stuff for a Ral Partha dragon she bought at Gencon. Have you ever walked into a place and had everyone stop what they're doing and stare at you? Yeah. A little awkward.


Let's call a spade a spade - the whole frigging hobby as a whole is expensive, and that includes tabletop, LARP, board games, and mini's. Everything is expensive and none of it is cheap; the moment you buy a book, you're out at least twenty dollars unless it's a rare and highly sought after book that people are going to throw money at you for. I'm a big fan of DnD 4th, but I'm also trying to be a lot more conscious of my spending, so I don't own anything over the first core set, the FR Campaign guide, and KotS (which I bought before they re-released it free, on the web, with revisions - the perils of being an early adopter). I've been watching out for sales and discounts, but even when the local Waldenbooks started its going out of business sales, they're still only 20% off of the cover price.

Luckily, it's also an opt-in hobby, so I can pick and choose as I like. So there's that.

Posted by: Wesley Street Jan 4 2010, 05:16 PM

As a non-minis gamer (outside of the pre-painted plastic ones I pick up for my D&D 4E game) how much does an "average" Warhammer army cost to create? I know there are different point values depending on the size of the army but I'm curious as to what the comparison is. I would also think that all that time invested in painting, sanding, etc. would have some sort of cost value attached to it.

A butterface girl with a low-cut shirt pretty much commands the floor at any gathering of geekery. I took a big-tit ex of mine to a comic book convention and, out of the blue, an amateur fantasy artist swooped in on her and asked if she liked dragons. Her cold reply of "no" and the poor slob's dejected look were something to behold.

Nerd stinkery is a common issue but I've also attended plenty of sporting events where I'm pressed up against a piece of man flab who smells of stale beer and onions. I'd say for 90% of fans of anything, they're hygienic. It's that 10% that makes the entire hobby look like it's filled with shut-in cases.

Armchair psychologist statement: I think for folk with predilections toward obsessiveness there is "everyday mode," where you shower, wear clean clothes, etc. and then there's "geek mode," where you let yourself go to hell simply because you feel at home in a place, be it a game store or a football stadium... and who cares if you stink at home? Stinky nerds wouldn't even have jobs if they stank all the time. (Cue poster who shares story of stinky nerd coworker in 5... 4... 3...)

Posted by: ravensmuse Jan 4 2010, 05:21 PM

I've had times, mostly on the weekends, where I just want to veg out around the house and don't take a second for personal grooming. If we end up going out though, I always brush my teeth and use deodorant to at least look decent, if not shave. I spent all of my time at my gf's parent's house unshaven, mostly because I was feeling fsking lazy and didn't want to bother.

But there are Those Guys that smell and look like they've never see the underside of a showerhead before, and they're the ones bringing the hobby down.

Wes: See also the Queen Bee syndrome, where relatively decent looking girls in geek circles can command an entire army if they so choose. Female geeks can be very attractive, but I've moved out of the mindset that a girl needs to wear glasses and can tell me the Konami Code off-hand before I'll be interested.

(I was a total nerd at one point, no lie)

Posted by: pbangarth Jan 4 2010, 05:58 PM

Human beings consist of a very thin layer of civilization over top of millions of years of evolution. Among most animal species, a female that clearly is in good breeding form is the object of intense interest from every male in sight. Or smell. What keeps her from being pestered incessantly is the one male that beats the shit out of any other male that gets close. Even that doesn't work all the time.

Our cultural indoctrination filters that male instinct through training that instills patterns of behaviour that are considered appropriate within the society. Over the course of millennia we have learned to get along in crowded conditions in a way that doesn't get most of us killed. We learn how to surreptitiously look at the female, how to approach her in ways that do not repel her, and how to present our animal instincts in a way that she will find attractive. If that training goes awry, or is absent.... who knows, for any number of reasons.... then the instincts are expressed in behaviour that is unacceptable to society as a whole, and the female in particular. The guy who doesn't know how to act around a woman is still driven by a very powerful instinct that has kept the species alive for a long time. The drive even overrides obvious cues that he is failing miserably.

So he keeps trying. Despite fear, years of bad experiences, and complete misunderstanding of himself and his world. Despite disgusted disinterest from the woman, angry stares from her man who himself is trained by society not to beat the shit out of this interloper, and self-loathing for the humiliation to which he subjects himself, he keeps trying.

Posted by: Wesley Street Jan 4 2010, 07:32 PM

The smelly nerd is the introverted version of the crotch-grabbing "yeah baby!" frat guy.

Posted by: Critias Jan 4 2010, 09:22 PM

It's a hard question to answer, because it depends on several factors. Not just the points values like you mentioned, but in whether you're after new or used minis, paying to get them painted or not, and what sort of army you're making (in terms of force composition ideas, not just what side/army/nation you want to play, though the two go together).

In the same way that the points value determines -- in the broadest sense -- the cost of an army, it's important to remember that it also determines the cost of individual miniatures within an army. A handy prepackaged boxed set of High Elven Spearmen (fairly basic troopers for their faction) may be moderately priced in terms of both money (being a boxed set of plastic models) and points (being the core troops of a High Elf army). A basic unit of 16 of them is about $35, and, according to what I think is the most recent army book for High Elves, would be about a 175 point unit.

Or, for $45, you could buy a "High Elf Hero on Dragon" model that could then be configured to run you about 550 points for just that one model. A big ass model, yes, but for just $10 more you're getting about triple the points.

Army building is a complicated thing, that way, in that it's hard to pin down an average when it comes to a "points to dollars" ratio...and it's worth pointing out that this is even within the same army! When you go to armies like the Skaven (rat men who attack in huge hordes) or Orks/Goblins (ditto), you run into really dirt cheap basic infantrymen when it comes to points cost, but the game company is still charging you $35 for a box of 16 dudes...so the price tag just goes up, up, up.

That's one reason (among many) that over in their sci-fi game, Warhammer 40k, Space Marines stay so popular. Because their core troops are already elite superhuman soldiers in top notch armor and toting fantastic guns, each trooper costs double or even triple, in points, what the basic foot soldier of other armies might. When you're fielding the same points cost as your opponent, but 1/3 or even 1/4 the physical miniatures (which ALSO cuts down on the cost of the required cases, and headaches, associated with transporting your army), dollar values get all out of wack.

So basically, then, all of that comes down to what playstyle you like, what army you choose, and what your tolerance is for painting (or for paying to have them painted, which is another reason smaller, more elite armies, are often popular). It's one big fat caveat, and just a warning that estimates like this are very tricky.

All that said? Games Workshop tends to have a halfway decent core "starter army" for pretty much every faction, that gives you a little bit of what each faction is known for -- a mix of basic infantrymen, specialized guerilla or artillery type guys, a few character/leader models, some vehicles or cavalry, a pinch of this, a pinch of that -- and will normally leave you maybe a single boxed unit or two away from a solid, tournament-playable, force. Most of those boxed sets are $175-$200 bucks.

For a basic "tabletop quality" paint job, if you're of a mind to get things painted for you instead of paint them yourselves, you can generally look at being charged at least the price of the models in question to get them painted (so double it for a VERY rough gauge of what it might cost).

And then? And then you can find them on eBay -- often those same boxed sets, maybe even still in the box as a retailer crumbles and tries to liquidate inventory -- for...say...half MSRP? Fairly regularly. Or, alternately, you can find a single very well painted model for $150 for a $15 model, painted by a real pro/award winner.

So the whole thing's just fuzzy as all hell, is what I'm basically saying. It depends on an AWFUL lot of factors (even including just what's popular at the moment, what book just came out, or what time of year it is, as eBay gets flooded with armies no one wants any more). Imagine if everyone sold their Street Samurai, karma and gear and all, on eBay when the new Street Magic hit shelves, and then six months later the same kids were all buying Technomancers and were eager to ditch their Mages and Adepts, used, on Craigslist. GW's rotating army book schedule and "codex creep" makes sure the used market is always, always, hopping...and as such, always, always, unpredictable to get into the game.

Posted by: Backgammon Jan 5 2010, 12:34 AM

The university I went to was Engineering disciplines only. Every day for every girl was a "get stared at" day. When there were parties, most guys that actually had girlfriends didn't want to bring them, because they got stared at obsessively all night long. One time, in a class, we had to parter up for labs (this was chemistry iirc) and I asked the girl next to me if she wanted to be my partner - because she looked smart and attentive to the subject matter. You should have seen the distrust in her eyes. "Yeeeaaahh.... I guess we can do that... ... ...". She wasn't even hot by normal standards.

I recently got back into Warhammer, and I got myself an Empire army. But now that I make more money than I ever have as a kid, I seem to have less to spend than I ever had (you know what I'm talking about!). So anyway, I was really price-conscious about my army. So I took my time and swooped up choice bargains on ebay and only bought from GW the stuff that's too hard to get on ebay, plus a pain set.

My 2000+ army, the minimum to have a decent game, really, cost me around 600$. And I got most of my shit half price or less on ebay. Retail is probably at least 800$. That's a lot of fucking dough. Which brings up my objection that Shadowrun (or other RP games) cost as much. You can probably, over the lifetime of the game, pay that much for books. But you sure as shit don't need 600$ UP FRONT before being able to even play the fucking game. Plus you can spread the cost around your gaming group, if you play with friends. When I used to play with meat popsicles (as opposed to electronic people) we used to pass the hat around for 5-10$ bills when we bought a few books. Can't do that with minis.

Posted by: pbangarth Jan 5 2010, 02:32 AM

This takes me down memory lane on a tangent that sort of reverses the situation.

This was some 40 years ago. (Yeah, I know.) We still had Grade 13 in Ontario at that time. In my chemistry class (that was the memory trigger) our teacher paired us up for experiments. Boy-girl if possible, because "Boys are good at setting up, girls are good at cleaning up." (Yeah, I know. It was 40 years ago!) I was really good in chemistry (read: nerd), and he paired me with ... well, I won't give her name. Repeating her chemistry to get her diploma. Blonde, stunning figure, miniskirts, got a brand new Thunderbird for her 16th birthday, the object of lust for every boy in the school. I became the object of disgusted, hateful envy, complete with stares of disbelief from the cool guys. Not just for the classroom pairing, or the walking down the hallways together, but because she asked me to tutor her in chemistry, one-on-one after school. We studied in, among other places, the nurses station with the leather couch, and in her basement rec room with the bearskin rug in front of the fireplace. (I'm not making this up!) It was torture, as I tried to get formulas and concepts through to her as we were shoulder to shoulder over the books and my mind and eyes drifted to couch and rug ... and parts best left unsaid.

So at the end of the year, just before exams, she drove me home in her T-bird. In my driveway, she turned to me, lifting one mini-skirted knee up on the seat between us, and said in a soft whisper, "Peter, I am so grateful. I wish there was some way I could thank you."

I was frozen with fear. I knew exactly what she was saying. I wanted it with every cell of my body. The memory of her soft... well... the unsocialized nerd could think of nothing better to say than, "It was my pleasure to help you. You passing the exam will be thanks enough for me." And I ran.

Yeah, you're right. But I didn't have the courage or the experience to accept what she offered. In the long run I was lucky. Those qualities eventually came years later. But there isn't an antisocial, stammering, unkempt geek at a convention or a game store I don't relate to at least in some small way. There but for the grace of God and a few understanding women go I.

Could have been you, too, guys. Have a tiny bit of compassion next time you hold your nose.

PS. Some years later, when I became single again, I tried to find her. Never did.

Posted by: ravensmuse Jan 5 2010, 12:14 PM

I think we all have a story like that. Me, I can't think of one. I just hung out with dancers all through high school

I have compassion for those guys - a lot of them have slight mental disorders or are products of bad home lives. But that doesn't mean that I have to tolerate rude or bad or stinky behavior from them either.

Posted by: zed Jan 5 2010, 01:33 PM

in reference to the early comment of buying $600+ of minis - you cannot forget that on ebay there is a huge second hand market for GW mini's.

Getting bakc into it recently i've purchased 4,000 pts of Nids and probably close to 3,000 on Marines and the only thing i bought/had bought for me new was 1 Tyranids battleforce (before they changed it) and 1 Black reach set. Everything else was from Ebay at significantly reduced prices. I got a 1,000+ points nids army for less than $75. I recently got a box of marines stuff for around $25 that had over $200 of minis in it.

But GW have survived a lot of recesssions, they were opening stores in the UK when i was a lad that was 25+yrs ago.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 6 2010, 12:33 AM

To be fair, though, I honestly don't think many high school kids would have exactly been smooth in that situation, whether they were on the chess team OR the football team.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, even today how many grownups can say that they would be totally ready with some smooth James Bond rejoinder and just the right look if something like that happened totally unexpectedly? I mean, being perfectly honest about it?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 6 2010, 02:11 AM

I've got all the rejoinders ready!

"…I wish there was some way I could thank you."
"Do you expect me to talk?"

"…I wish there was some way I could thank you."
"Nothing would give me greater pleasure, but I'm afraid I have a business appointment."

"…I wish there was some way I could thank you."
"I'd respectfully request that you change my assignment to Nassau."

"…I wish there was some way I could thank you."
"Why do Chinese girls taste different from all other girls?"

~J

Posted by: pbangarth Jan 6 2010, 05:17 AM

Fair enough. Maybe some grownup who had run over a 'similar' scenario a thousand times in his mind. Just sayin'.

Posted by: Tanegar Jan 6 2010, 07:27 AM

Where are these "understanding women" of whom you speak? I can't find any.

Posted by: ker'ion Jan 6 2010, 08:45 AM

That's because they usually get picked up quickly.
I married one and she's still here twelve years later.

Posted by: ravensmuse Jan 6 2010, 12:16 PM

Hate to say it, but same I'm a jerk because I tighten the dating pool, I'M SORRY.

Someone's been playing too many dating sims lately.

Posted by: Bitten the Bug Jan 6 2010, 12:18 PM

I opted out of the GW -let's continue to buy more army stuff- bulldrekk long time ago. Because it is basically a sink hole. Sure, I loved to play with my undead Army and my Chaos Horde (Hurl and Stench), but it got too expensive in the end with all the new gew gaws and time to paint them etc. Time, money and finding people willing to play a serious battle with me instead of a battle of the sexes. I know that girls are in short supply, but... *grumble* I'm willing to let certain things slide fwhen dealing with nerds and geeks, including social ineptness, but somethings aren't done.

Back on track... With them (the neboulus evil corp) trying and in part succeeding in not allowing us fans to congreate and have fun talking about the games we love. That makes me even want to fiddle around with the minis even less. What happened to them?! Money is that important to them?! The problem will still be there, when the next batch of teens grow up. Are they that myopic?! Or do they not know that us grown up gamers has plenty more money than a 12 yr old? That they should use the fansites as a breeding ground for new things? Eh gads man, it is cheap too!

Yeah, I am a gamergirl, a nerd and a geek. Yeah, I've tried the whole "Let's stalk the nice gamer/girl around the shop or the con (reminds me of an unwashed smelly male's first encounter with a bar of soap. In the gonads I might add. That serves him right for trying to sneak a peak whilst us girls were taking a shower. Not to mention the very publicly scolding), where ever she goes..
Brrr.. I am not polite nor dimplomatic enough to tolerate that kind of behavior for long. Nope, not really.
At least LARPers are used to girls. Well, accustomed to the concept of girls.
One well told tale at the physics department at the Uni where I studied loong time ago, is of a girl, cute as a button, who decked a guy for trying to do things with her person, she wouldn't tolerate. Physics department at my old university is the ultimate nesting ground for geeks and nerds. Not to mention busy hands and busy minds, but the busy hands is part and parcel of being human.

Sure I can swoon at the welltold tale of meeting a dragon and living to tell the tale of it. But showing off your munchkin genes or talent, will get you nowhere. A gamergirl is picky, you know. Substance, not numbers iffn' you don't mind.

I like geeks, I like nerds. When they overcome the whole shyness of one having boobs and a vagina, they are Nice Guys. And I'd rather have a Nice Guy in my bed and in my heart than anything else.
At least I was reasonable enough to marry a Nice GamerGeek with a very nice full SR library (1st ed through 4th ed) and loads of fluff on the side. Darlings, I mean the novels, hmm'kay?

Posted by: Blade Jan 6 2010, 03:43 PM

There are also some girls, gamer or not, who hang out with geeks/nerds because they know they can get whoever they want in these circles. And even girls who prefer geeks, or look for them because they're usually kind, knowledgeable (and they even start to get fashionable).
Anyway, I met my girl at the friday evening shadowrun-players meet and drink where someone brought her because she wanted to meet some geeks...

Posted by: Wesley Street Jan 6 2010, 04:21 PM

Thank you for the in-depth clarification. That made more sense than how anyone else has attempted to explain it to me.



I see piles of those old codexes at used book stores. I don't know who would buy them. But what I don't understand is why someone would dump expensive figurines on eBay if they plan to continue playing the game. Is it a matter of playing the "in-vogue" Warhammer/Warhammer 40K race? You can still use the same minis, even with codex updates, yes?


You sound like my future Missus. Even though I find them horrible, she likes the novels as well. Men, there are plenty of geeky women out there. You just have to make the effort to go out with a LOT of women to find them. Which isn't a bad thing, really. It's no different than a jock trying to find a fellow sports fan for a wife.

As a side note, does anyone find WotC's "Confessions of a Part-Time Sorceress" columns a bit... pander-y? I'll admit, I thought that the printed chick-lit biography was cute and was an excellent tool to bring non-geek, young women into D&D and role-playing games in general. I'd toss it to any high school girl. But as a regular column that takes the tone of "OMG grrls, you can totally make up your own house rulez!" I find it... I dunno. Something about it bugs me. I know I'm not the target audience and I think an outsider point-of-view is important as the gaming community is so in-bred that it literally bleeds blue. But I think equating "outsider" with "woman" is a mistake.

Posted by: ravensmuse Jan 6 2010, 05:25 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's not for us. Not that I don't dislike you Wes, I'm just stating the obvious before someone starts up. It's exactly that - it's for the girls that are actually into fantasy, and I don't mean the Conan smash kind of stuff, but fairy princesses and unicorns and all of that, that are interested in gaming but can't find a comfortable "in". I could go on about my girl (and will, in a moment) but Shelly was a real treat for her to read when I bought Confessions for her, because she identified with it a lot. I have to put Miss Mazzanoble down after awhile because she raises my sugar intake like whoa though, and I'm usually pretty tolerable of that over the top writing style. I have also met her in-person, and she's a lot more restrained and kind of bewildered that she has a fanbase. She was very sweet though, and signed a copy of her book for my girlfriend while we talked about awesome pink sparkly dice that she'd bought over at the Chessex booth (sidenote: my girl has exactly the same set, which we laughed about).

My own significant other is a beautiful young lady I met six years ago on deviantart, and we've been living together for near four years now, with a year of dating before that. We're still extremely compatible, but I'm the geekier of the pair of us. She's a fringe geek that is still new to a lot of the hobby, but she's also curious and interested when I start on a topic I know. And I've learned a lot of things I don't think I'd ever have known if it wasn't for her insistance. She's also helped bring me out of my shell a whole lot, because I was seriously veering into otaku-dom (the bad Japanese kind) before I met her.

Also, her parents bought me classic Kenner Star Wars figures this year for Christmas. I love my SO

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 6 2010, 08:20 PM

This is the rational choice if you are willing to spare the entire cost of the new things you're getting, but if the new thing is shiny enough and new enough, or the old stuff is obsolete enough (I'm given to understand that releases can cause dramatic shifts in balance, which can make certain minis worthless to someone tournament-focused or just sufficiently competitive), dumping the old minis takes just that little bit more off the effective price tag.

~J

Posted by: Backgammon Jan 6 2010, 11:17 PM

Ebay minis come 50% from online stores, where the discounts are pretty low - maybe 10% less. With shipping, it is usually a bad deal. I've never bought from stores, but judging by the fact fucking 50% of offers or more come from stores, it's gotta be working.

The other half are from individuals. I have no other why they sell. Some are pro-painters, of course, who add value by painting the minis and then sell them for profit. That's cool. But unpainted minis are hard to understand. It seems some people start armies but then decide to stop, so they sell the couple of units they had. I don't know. My dad actually buys shitload of minis (he's got the cash) and I keep trying to convince him to shop ebay, but he doesn't because he can't understand why someone would sell at a loss. Neither can I, but that doesn't mean I won't take advantage of it.

Hah, anyone else picturing that scene in Porky's?

I keep being surprised by how much negative sexual shit happens to women, in general. Kinda sucks. It seems I never think about it, being a guy. That stuff never happens to me.

I only ever met a gamer chick once. She was damn hot too, in that cute as a button way. I bet she had tons of trouble finding groups where she wasn't considered meat. I never got to know her well enough to know what she did with the attention.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 7 2010, 03:05 AM

I have been really putting in the effort to carefully observe females over the past two years or so. By that I mean that I am trying to find out what they really like to do, and what makes them happy. I think that the majority of socialized males can approach a female and interact in a socially acceptable manner to accomplish immediate goals and leave an at least neutral impression due to manners and etiquette. But my question was, how can someone approach and engage a female in a way that makes the female get a strong positive impression? How can I, as a male, perform actions or select conversation trees that cause the female to feel good in my presence? How many hours of proximity does a female require to begin to feel relaxed in my presence?

So far, I have come up with some things that females, with few exceptions, *aren't* interested in:
*Firearms, both classical and modern
*Swords
*Unarmed combat that seems violent
*Tactical tomohawks
*Shotgun dismemberment
*Nietzche
*John Milius
*Strategy videogames
*Battle of Stalingrad
*Boxing
*Soviet BMPs
*SWAT room-clearing tactics

Today I resolved that instead of coming up with an endless list of negatives, I must instead find out thing that females *are* interested in. I don't have very many items, but the following seem to generate an almost universal interested response from females:
*Physical appearance ("I like your shoes.")
*Chocolate/Food/Eating/Caloric intake ("Here, I baked some high quality choclate brownies with nuts and several types of chocolate. Won't you have some?")
*Puppies, kittens, cats, and dogs ("One time I raised a cat and he did this and this and that.")
*Modern consumeristic escapist Asian martial arts that make hand to hand combat seem graceful rather than violent ("I break his chi by gently pirouetting and imagining warm energy flowing from my lower gut into my arms, and then I do this form on a grassy knoll in the sunlight while breathing softly.")
*Menopause (but if you're male I get the impression you shouldn't randomly bring this up in conversation, but among females they seem to love spontanieously bring up among themselves and then they'll go on for like 10 or 20 minutes)


Maybe you all can help me. What are some things I can bring up with females in the field and have them generate a positive response?

Posted by: Backgammon Jan 7 2010, 03:25 AM

Ah WR, you continue to be teh awesome to my days.

Well, my wife is a typical young attractive female with few geek interests. I can tell you that she loves gossip. Buy some Ok!, Us Weekly and In Touch magazines and read up on celebrity gossip. Bring what you learn into conversations. This is actually easy prep work. Gossip is only ever a week old, so if you're going to a party, buying the current week's issue, reading, and conversing on topics you have just read is all you need. Information backlog is irrelevant. As these magazines come out on Fridays, and parties are on weekends usually, you can buy it, read it on the way to the party, and possibly have gossip so fresh the girls haven't heard about it yet. INSTANT win, for sure. This WILL work.

I don'T recommend gossiping about actual people you know. While this will definately get female attention, you are unwittingly getting into complex female politics that can have you suddenly on someone's "side". Don't go there, it's not worth it on long term.

You can however discuss reality TV. This works great too. If you can hold a gossipy conversation about The Bahcelor, The Biggest Loser, Survivor, etc, you are bound to get a female interested. The downside is that you have to watch these shows in order to discuss them. IMO, not worth it.

Females also like fashion. If you talk about where you bought your clothes, and how they were on sale, you will appear intelligent. Intelligence is measured by how much money you save by picking the right sales, nothing else. Oh, and when you buy something on sale, you do not "save" money. You "make" money. This is crucial to understand. Other generalizations about girls may not hold true, but "making" money when buying stuff on sale is universal.

For slightly older females - late 20s to 30s - talking about cooking may also reward. You can somehow drop into conversation "the other day I made this incredible osso bucco...". If one girls goes "You cook?" you may have a bite, and can continue talking about cooking. If you do not actually cook, you cannot use this. You may however take the neophyte cook approach and say how you tried a recipe and it failed, and ask whomever shows the most interest her advice on how to succeed. She will find you cute and disarming, and you will get into the trust zone quickly.

As you have noticed, some subjects are of GREAT interest to women, but men cannot use these subjects. Make-up, hair styling experiences, etc. As much as it would seem like a good way in, you just can't use them, sorry. Unless you're gay or want to appear gay, but that won't get you were you want in the end, so no good.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 7 2010, 03:35 AM

Be careful with the cooking angle. I've noticed that it can be very hit-or-miss; one minute I'm talking about the great Indian Pudding I made with the half-pound of chocolate and they're all over me, and then the next I'm talking about the amazing sausage filling mixed with ramen seasoning and wrapped in woven bacon and I'm getting looks like I'd just killed someone's dog. Women are deeply confusing creatures.

~J

Posted by: pbangarth Jan 7 2010, 03:46 AM

My son, you have entered the First Circle. Well done. Understand... this is only the beginning.

Posted by: Blade Jan 7 2010, 09:36 AM

@WR:
You can always go the consensual way by talking about "universal" subjects such as :
* job: "what do you do for a living?", if it looks like she actually likes her job, ask her more about it, bonus points if you have some knowledge in that field.
* music, cinema, tv shows
* books might not work, but who wants a girl who doesn't like to read anyway? Just don't start right away on sci-fi/fantasy/military books.
While martial arts might not be interesting to her, you could have good result by mentioning that you're practicing one. Generally speaking, funny or interesting anecdotes about your life can be a way to help you be more interesting to talk to.

You have to find something she likes and then talk about it, or rather have her talk about it. Usually, starting with "what do you do for a living?" and "what do you do in your spare time?" are a good start to find the right topic.
But BE CAREFUL! If you're too understanding and "nice to talk too" you'll end up being "a very good friend" and she'll walk back home with the outlaw biker who hasn't spoken to her once, except to tell her something rude and sexist. To avoid this, you have to "challenge" her. Tell her you disagree with some of the thing she says, tease her about things she likes (but is okay with being teased about, such as some tv shows, don't tease her about her work for charities).

Non-verbal language is very important too: look her in the eyes, if you feel like the conversation is going well, slowly lean a bit closer to her (if sitting in front of her at a table). Touching (the shoulder, for example) is sometimes a good idea, but it depends a lot on the person you're with and how easily you do it.

(Of course, as to be expected on such a forum, all this comes from a long-time single who just happened to be lucky one evening.)

Posted by: Kanada Ten Jan 7 2010, 07:29 PM

The primary manners needed to attract female attention begin with dismissing them utterly. I do not mean one should merely feign indifference. No, despite the duplicitous insistence of polite society to the contrary, you must accept the natural superiority of the male mind and body to the female's stunted and childlike physiology.

Once you realize this implicit empirical fact, you must move on to understanding your superiority over not just the fairer sex, but also the rest of your own. With few exceptions, you have no equal; something you have always known, but failed to wholeheartedly embrace due to the pressures of your excellent breeding, which sought to instill humility and modesty in demeanor. While useful for business dealings and in church, in the realm of matrimony and mistresses, it is an unwelcome inhibition. Pride, where there is a real superiority of mind, as with you, is not a flaw.

Save a small circle of intimate friends, whom you bless with unfailing generosity - due not to their many skills or large estates, but to your divinely inspired grace; allow no one to win your approbation. That is not an excuse to be rude, per se; rather you need not condescend to compliment or even offer platitudes on barometric measures as suggested by the bloating banal lexicons of disingenuous greetings. If forced to take notice of a woman, quickly find something in her physiognomy to remark upon, which will leave no doubt of your distaste (i.e. "I can see why she didn't go into modeling" or "She's almost pretty, really. A pity about her nose.").

If you cannot avoid introduction to a woman, do not sneer! I cannot emphasise this enough. Keep your expression neutral, incline slightly, say "Madame," pause for a moment, then continue, "If you'll please excuse me", and resume your stoic perusal of the room. Try not to make eye contact with anyone except at the moment of introduction. When in conversation, only turn to look at the speaker to express incredulity at their interests. At clubs, dance well, but not often, and never with anyone who asks you.

Finally, it is absolutely critical that you are rich. It is a truth, universally acknowledged, that any man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife. But there is an equal and opposite truth, that a man of modest means is a bachelor. Therefore, inherit yourself a mint, and you'll find the attention of women inexorably pointed in your direction.

Posted by: pbangarth Jan 8 2010, 12:08 AM

My son, you have entered the Second Circle. Well done.

Posted by: Bitten the Bug Jan 8 2010, 11:11 AM

Kanada Ten; Substitute women with men and you pretty much got it right.

If you really want to snag a girl, treat her like a human instead of meat or a walking blow up doll. Be courteous, (spelling?!) but do not fawn. Be a gentleman, but do not overdo it. Be polite, clean and smell of a good aftershave and have a care with your appearance. Sloth is not the way to get a good woman. Above all, be true to who you are. If she wants to change you into something you are not (and I am not talking about a change of underwear or a nice suit or nice clothes, gents), then get out! QUICK!

My husband snagged me by being whom he was: True to himself. He talked about guns, blades (and not between the fourth and fifth rib either), martial arts (not main stream karate or judo or jiu-jitsu), books (sci-fi, adventure, RPG, SR, mil-spec stuff) and other such stuff. How to poison a person, religion (asatrue, buddhism, boddhisattva, shinto, konfuism (sp?!)
Basically all the things listed you do NOT talk with a woman/girl about.
And that was when I first met him.
But hey, I am a nerdish geekgamergirl.

Though I do like popmusic. Any one got any Christina Aquilera?! My achilles heel.... *chuckle*

Posted by: Bitten the Bug Jan 8 2010, 11:12 AM

BOLLOCKS!!!

Posted by: ravensmuse Jan 8 2010, 12:15 PM

My biggest piece of advice is just to present yourself as confident. I've only learned this over the last few years, when I've finally become comfortable with the person that I am, that if you can't present yourself as someone that can take care of himself, no one will ever be attracted to you. Sure, you might have lots of friends, but will you have a partner? Someone to be intimate with? Probably not.

Because girls like guys with confidence. Mine was attracted at first by how arrogant I could be, first online, and then as I came out of my shell more, out in the real world too. And I don't mean kicking puppies and flipping off boxes of kittens, but by being someone that knows he looks good, knows he's smart and capable, and won't take shit from anyone. Confidence.

But grooming is so important its not even funny. Wash, brush, shave, take a shower at least every day, comb your hair out, keep your glasses clean (one of the things I always forget) and keep breath mints on hand. You could be the most charismatic asshole on the block, but if you smell like you just crawled out of a garbage can, no one is going to want anything to do with you.

Especially you.

(Hi hun)

Posted by: pbangarth Jan 8 2010, 11:22 PM

There really is no way to present sarcasm or humour in this medium without the little smiley faces, is there? I didn't think I needed them.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 9 2010, 01:13 AM

In order to research this topic, I have started to read a book on female bullying called Odd Girl Out.

http://www.amazon.com/Odd-Girl-Out-Culture-Aggression/dp/B0013L2DZ0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262999428&sr=8-1

I've read the first three chapters so far.

According to the book, girls prize their relationships with other girls very highly. The key thing is the existence of a relationship. According to the book, if girl A is best friends with girl B, and then girl B starts to become emotionally abusive to girl A, then girl A will typically fear termination of the relationship more than anything else, and so will go along with being controlled and abused by girl B. Also, if directly questioned about why she is being mean or whatever, girl B will deny doing anything.

Interestingly, the author mentioned how in one case, an emotionally abused girl's brothers were almost exasperated and asked her why she didn't go and simply beat up the other girl who was emotionally abusing her. That really stuck out in my mind because of course the first thing that occurs to me when reading about situations like that is "why don't you beat the crap out of the person abusing you?"

EDIT: The nature of the abuse can be things like coordinating all of someone's friends to ignore them, whisper while they're there, write up lists of negative qualities, etc. Not even something like straight up denigration or punching. It's the fear of social ostracization that is the most significant according to that book.

Posted by: Backgammon Jan 9 2010, 04:28 AM

Well teenage boys power come from physial prowesses, while women's comes from social standing.

Anyway, just saw Megan's Body - sorry, Jennifer's Body - and that's a pretty good movie. I thought of it just now cause of the abusive bff angle. That movie felt like an episode of Buffy, if Buffy wasn't in town to stop the evil thing. Actually, it's like if Willow and Faith were best friends when Faith went bad.

Posted by: Bitten the Bug Jan 9 2010, 06:47 PM

If I may add to your list...
*Chick lit, but your head might explode from the lack of. Well, suffice to say, not my kind of genre. Oprahs bookclub is a way to find litterature.
*Chick series. Desperate Housewives, Sex in the City, stuff like that. Though with Sex in the City it is sort of a handbook in how to decode female behaviour.
* Chick flicks, though I have no idea what they are. I avoid them like Yersinia pestis.
*Gossip magasines are the way to go. I have no idea why the lifes of the IN-crowd is so fascinating, but it is.
* Cooking, but try to mix low fat recipees with the more unhealthy ones.
* Learn how to cook.

* The art of tea making, green tea, black tea, white tea, with/out honey, milk, sugar...
* Coffee.. Oh the heavenly scent of well made coffee!!

*Remember to smile.
* Remember to be courteous and gentlemanly. The door, the chair etc.
* Remember to give compliments. Compliment her hair, her scent (for the love of the gods, do not call it smell), the care she took in her appearance, the way she smiles, the way she laughs. NOT how she walks or how her boobs move from side to side or how her hips undulate from side to side or swivel. Even though it would make a nice physics experiment. Especially if you want to test it against fake boobs and the variety of fake boobs... Never you mind... Misspent youth, not for your ears... Or eyes.

* Humor. Not sordid below deck humor but the intelligent one, though do not appear to be more intelligent than her, unless she's got a college degree of some sort. Women marry upwards, not downwards. Genes, gents. Remember we do want intelligent good looking offspring, so remember hygiene.

*Hygiene. And I do mean yours. Hair can be long, if it is clean and smelling nice. Aftershave, a good deodorant, eau de toilette, clean clothes, clean fingernails, that are TRIMMED and a shave. If you got a beard, trim it and keep it clean! No funny odours from the beard at all, gents.

* Sex. If she chooses to talk sex in front of you with her gaggle of gee.. I mean hatchery of.. I mean girlfriends, then you may fall into several categories.
1) She thinks you are gay. 2) She wants to make you blush. 3) She thinks of you as a friend. 4) She really likes you and trust you. You are in the "I want him!" category.

Above all, be true to who you are inside. Relax, if you relax, so does she. Smile, have fun and do not expect to bed her at any point. Treat her like a person![size="3"][/size]

Have fun...

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 10 2010, 02:35 AM

Thank you for taking the time to articulate your thoughts. I'll meditate on that for the next few days.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jan 10 2010, 08:27 AM

So, from Games Workshop to Relationship Advice.

Yup, this is Dumpshock all right.





-karma

Posted by: Bitten the Bug Jan 10 2010, 09:08 AM

Fun though..

Posted by: Critias Jan 10 2010, 11:56 PM

Some folks buy used codices in order to get the fluff/artwork/whatever, because they dig the background story of Warhammer 40k (just like, say, Bug City or the Lone Star Sourcebook might still be hunted down by an SR4 player). There's also folks that -- like SR3, maybe -- play a previous edition of the game because they like the rules better, and so they pick up out of date army books.

You can sometimes use the same miniatures, yes, but other times you can't use all of them. One instance that hit High Elves (since I'm just using them as my generic example) was that you used to be able to make a themed all cavalry list, because Silver Helms, the basic horsemen, were a "Core" choice (which you're required to take two units of). You could fill your Core requirement with them, then take Rare and Special units of more elite cavalry, or chariots, or what-have-you, slap your Lord/Hero choices on horseback (or dragon, or griffin, or giant eagle), and have a pretty cool themed force.

Then, in the next edition of the High Elf book, they changed Silver Helms over into another category. The only Core choices were basic High Elf Spearmen or Archers, both foot troops. There goes the theme, and suddenly you've got to buy some infantry (at least two units) in order to be a rules-legal army. What's more, if you just buy two cheapie little units of Archers, at their smallest unit size...you're "that guy," when it comes to tournament play, because now everyone else gets to look down on you and give you shitty army composition scores at tournies, because you're only just barely playing a legal army, you've got the overwhelming bulk of your points sank into "not fluffy" units (Special and Rare choices), etc, etc.

One little change like that could've made a lot of people sell some Silver Helms, or maybe even ditch their whole army in a fit of nerdrage, right? And at the same time, with the new High Elf army book hitting shelves, other players might have seen something in the book that seemed really awesome (like, oh, War Mages riding on Dragons), and been all "ZOMG MUST HAVE IT," but they needed some other High Elf stuff to round out their army.

And so the used market trucks on.

Posted by: ravensmuse Jan 11 2010, 12:30 PM

It's in our nature. Besides, I was involved, and I'm king of sidetracking. How bout them Pats?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 11 2010, 02:13 PM

On that topic, Critias, I see Privateer Press is getting into the second-edition mood; any comment on what that looks like (how much change, is the change good, have they fixed their idiotic tournament rules)?

~J

Posted by: Wesley Street Jan 11 2010, 03:06 PM

...said the scorpions to the frogs.

Conversation without drift is not conversation.

Posted by: Bitten the Bug Jan 11 2010, 04:58 PM

Hrrmmm.. IIRC it is a fox. Either way, the scorpion kills the animal transporting her. I kinda like scorpion.

Posted by: pbangarth Jan 11 2010, 05:18 PM

Your alias would suggest so!

Posted by: Wesley Street Jan 11 2010, 05:35 PM

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog

I like frogs as it makes more sense thematically.

Posted by: ravensmuse Jan 11 2010, 05:59 PM

Me? I'm the raven sort.

I <3 Privateer Press, but I wish that they'd publish their fsking metaplot somewhere. It's all well and good that I own (most) of the IK books, but they keep talking about how "war is right around the corner" but it's been going on in Warmachine for years. Kind of annoying, especially as they just decided to have the Iosans get involved.

OTOH, the shirts they do for The Ram are kickass. I wish I'd liked their Monsterpocalypse one better (though their themed menu was awesome).

...and some people have no clue what I'm talking about

Posted by: Critias Jan 11 2010, 06:00 PM

The biggest changes were (a) a complete overhaul of their points system, (b) a simplification/streamlining of special abilities, and © a larger emphasis put on warjacks.

Everything in the game I've seen now costs between 1-9 points, instead of up into the hundreds. Warcasters are free now, but still vary in "cost" in that each warcaster brings you ____ free points that can only be spent on warjacks. This keeps players from feeling jipped when they've got to spend points on the sole mandatory model in their army (a warcaster), and encourages everyone to bring plenty of iron to the table (so that the game moves away from being so infantry heavy) by giving you free warjack points. An average game might be 35 points, now, instead of 500. Most models had their points scaled down about the same, so that it will still FEEL like a 500 point game used to.

Also, you'll no longer run into eight different special abilities that all do pretty much the same thing. There are fairly generic special rules for scouting, moving through cover, etc, as well as standardized spell lists (for things like Snipe, teleporting, or various defensive buffs). This means individual models may have lost what folks consider to be their special flavor, but if you ask me it's overall a good thing. Having four or five different spells that were functionally the same, but having a different name and text -- always written in font size impossible on the back of a card -- for each one was kind of silly. I don't think the world is a worse place because Caine's teleport isn't called Flash any more and Asphyxious' teleport isn't called Shadow Wings any more...they've both just got "teleport." Being an advocate, as I am, of the complexities of SR3 and preferring it over the simplicity of SR4, I'm sure it surprises people who are keeping track...but there's a fundamental difference between an RPG (where I have to keep track of what my guy can do) and a wargame (where I have to understand what everything in the game can do).

Lastly, in addition to free warjack points, warjacks are just plain better than they used to be. Most of them had their points costs scaled down very kindly (so that they're cheaper, proportionately, than they used to be), and there are a few new general warjack rules that help them out. One is a "shake" effect, for instance, where a warjack can overcome being knocked down by spending a Focus point, instead of having to sacrifice half it's action like everyone else. Several of their guns got a little better, and that sort of thing.

Overall, I like the changes I've seen. Keep in mind, though, everything I'm saying is based upon their free-to-download-just-give-us-feedback PDFs they put out in order to draft everyone, everywhere, as playtesters. This info's a few months old, and I have yet to see the finished product. At the time that the playtesting wrapped up for Warmachine (they're doing it right now for Hordes Mk. II), there were -- of course -- people who felt their favorite models had been nerfed, that everyone else's stuff was too potent, etc, etc. Some of the complaints were probably justified, but overall I think PP did a good job of balancing everything out again. When silly stuff was happening like a single warcaster being all that made it into the finals of their national tournament, something was obviously wrong. I like what I've seen of the Mark II rules, though, and I'm hoping that the book hitting shelves will spur my local gaming group into playing again. They, like plenty of others, have warily taken a step back and had trouble feeling motivated to play (and especially to buy or paint) while the rules were in limbo.

Posted by: Randian Hero Jan 12 2010, 09:58 PM

Women are simple enough to figure out. Just be vague when they ask you questions, occasionally feed them a backhanded compliment (i.e. "That dress is really slimming."), and form insightful observations about people you otherwise know nothing about. They especially love it when you ask their opinion about other people and pretend to be interested. Mix in a few quips about pop culture to make yourself seem cosmopolitan, and always playfully mock everything they like by saying, "Pfft. You're such a chick." It also helps to draw upon the stupid shit you did when you were younger as a means of tearing down the competition ("Look at that guy; I think I had that haircut when I was 16.").

Sorry, way off topic.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Jan 13 2010, 09:20 PM

I just picked up the book, and am reading through it (echo most of your sentiments-I stopped playing because my free time is significantly less than it used to be). But if you've been using the last PDF (realeased in November) it is pretty much the same as the book. According to PP, only a dozen model specific changes were made since that rules set was sent out. I did likehow they handled feedback on their field test rules. And from the sales records they made in the first five days, they are probably happy with the results too.