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Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 7 2010, 05:59 PM

As much fun as it is to make fun of White Wolf, I recently got Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines off of Steam, which makes me glad because the last time I tried to buy it used off amazon.com the CD was very expensive.

It's actually a really, really good RPG. There's lots of quests, a well done game world in terms of atmosphere, lots of skills, and a rich enough story backround to really support a decent CRPG. The atmosphere really reminded me of the SNES Shadowrun game. I am completely impressed that they implemented all of the vampire clans, Masquerade violations, and all that kind of stuff, and at the same time made all the quests and storylines work at the same time for, say, the Nosferatu as well as all those other guys who have the actual ability to be social. That's a lot of work, right there, and a lot of gameplay approaches they had to implement. Although I only played White Wolf once or twice in my whole life, from what I recall it seems like they largely avoided dumbing down or simplyfing the RPG rules, and I really have to give credit to any computer game designers who remain true to their source in that way.

I've only just started the game, which Steam should have automatically patched to 1.2, but we'll have to see if I hit any of the infamous game-destroying bugs that apparently ruined the commercial success of this game back when it was released.

I'll play it through once normally, maybe once again as a Malkavian just for the hell of it, and then I'll have to see about all those unofficial patches I've read about on gamefaqs.com

I think it's pretty hilarious that most of the vampires look all chic and artsy. Goddamn, if I were a vampire who was 100 years old, I think I'd have better things to do than go through the trouble to look like an affluent clubbing 20-something.

The whole, "you're tempted and threatened by your hunger for blood and the beast within while striving to hold onto your humanity" sounds like some big allegory to me for some kind of narcissistic personality disorder. With a narcissistic personality disorder you have trouble empathizing with other people although you still have some kind of conscience (because you're not a sociopath) and although you normally give into your own insecurity and fear such that you victimize or use others (drain their blood or ghoul them) you still sometimes feel bad about that and secretly hate yourself (that's your humanity score right there). The fact that lots of the vampires go through the trouble to dress up chic and artsy and/or wear Burberry suits and be very polite seems to symbolize the great lengths a narcissistic individual will go through to maintain a pretense of the ordered or respectable nature of their own life in spite of the fact they're usually experiencing a lot of fear or insecurity about not in fact being a perfect person. I think it's kind of funny because it just sounds like whomever came up with the concept of the game has had some experience with that particular psychological disorder and basically made a game about it. I guess all the vampires would turn out OK if they just took some psychotherapy. Heh, either that or they can just sit around listening to Linkin Park at a bowling alley during the daytime before heading out at night to play their games.

It's also funny because if I were a vampire like depicted in the game I wouldn't feel that I had the time for all those elaborate patty-cake games and pretenses and playing petty politics with other vampires. IMO the big problem with life is that it's too short, whereas there are all sorts of awesome things out there to do such that you probably can't do all of them. There's all kinds of experiences you can have and skills and disciplines you can develop, but again you don't have unlimited energy or time. Add to that the fact that as a normal human you need income, food, etc. and a lot of your time and energy is going to go towards accruing those necessities, and that the end can come very unexpectedly, like you go to the hospital and get a huge medical bill that explodes all the planning and stability in your life. So, if I were a vampire who were immune to the negative health effects of being homeless, who didn't need to buy food, who was pretty much unkillable, and whose only major restriction was needing to avoid sunlight (I don't consider the blood drinking to be a major restriction compared ot being a human...needing to eat the flesh dead animals is pretty similar to needing to drink the blood out of dead animals), I'd aggressively spend all my time pursuing hobbies and interests while not wasting time on things that are no longer necessary. It would also be possible to participate aggressively in physically risky endeavors that would be stupid if you were a human. Kind of like min-maxing my unlife.

All of a sudden it would be realistic to set out to read every book in the Library of Congress, for example, or spend 100 years refining your skill with firearms. If you wanted to learn about wilderness and nature you could just up and walk up the Sierra Nevada for a year, since you wouldn't be able to die of hypothermia. You could just hang out in the woods for as long as you wanted eating rats and bears with a few books on nature and study all about it on site. Wanna go and do archeological studies in a politically unstable region of the world? Go ahead, if some AK wielding tough guys come and bother you at night you can just eat them all and hide the bodies. Wanna visit all the great museums in the world? Go ahead, break in by night when nobody is there using your superpowers and enjoy the exhibits all to yourself. Wanna learn to paint or play the guitar? Well you finally have all the time to practice without being impeded by being poor. Wanna race stock cars? Well all of a sudden now it's safe, even if you suck at driving.

If vampires are going to get all depressed over these kinds of opportunities, well, hell, they're clearly all suffering from a personality disorder.

Posted by: CanadianWolverine Feb 8 2010, 12:14 AM

Oh man, are you going to enjoy the multiple endings and various twisted characters throughout this game.

And unfortunately, not all the bugs in the game got worked out and I am not sure if I ever did get the community/fan made patch to work.

Let me know how you enjoy your playthrough, from what you describe of what you would want to do as a vamp, you sound like one of the kinds of vamp, the magician vamps IIRC. I think there is even a sort of personality test (optional IIRC) that will sort out which playstyle you would enjoy playing most. I went with the animalistic guys.

Oh, and I also got the game off of Steam when there was a sale sometime last year or whenever.

Posted by: Angelone Feb 8 2010, 12:51 AM

VtM- Bloodlines is a great game. It's only real weakness is lack of replay value. The game doesn't change the only real change is the dialog for the Malkavians (which are fun(ny)).

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 8 2010, 01:28 AM

iirc, the community patches work ok, tho i have not tested them vs the steam version.

and i suspect the best part of the game is perhaps how it all ends

as for the way the vampire world is setup, i guess it tells a lot that the person behind its creation is a pretentious prick (from what i have been told), and that its the game that basically got the whole rpg theory (nar/sim/gam?) "flame war" going (largely thanks to yet another pretentious prick that seemed quite adept at attracting others of his kind).

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 8 2010, 03:20 AM

LOL, are you referring to this article?

http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/721099387/item/



Sounds kind of narcissistic, I guess.

Posted by: Critias Feb 8 2010, 03:56 AM

To me, the goofy pretentious self-interested mindset of the White Wolf games was always a turn off. What was a turn on (so to speak) was the fun that could be had -- as a history buff -- in the setting itself. I liked to cook up a character's backstory, just like I always do, but then to also cook up where his Sire had been and what his Sire had seen, what my werewolf's Past Lives showed him, who my Mage was in a prior incarnation...and all of it in the complicated but mildly addictive timeline they had, a mish-mash of real history and their own stereotypes, made-up cliques, and fantastic creatures.

I loved the setting. I hated the system, and the attitude.

The RPG gave me enough of the setting I had fun with it, complete system overhaul (that was pretty well done, especially for as old as the game is), and enough of the attitude to keep me from possibly wanting to play back through it, or anything like that. It was a fun ride, though. For the $9.99 or so I paid for it, it was well worth it. I also have a soft spot for Anarchs and the L.A. setting in the WoD, so the later levels of the game were fun for me (in that sense).

All in all, it was a good game, and one I wish they'd make some sort of prequel/sequel/totally unrelated but remarkably similiar add-on to. It was a well done video game, period.

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 8 2010, 04:29 AM

nice find

as for V:tM, i am unsure if i will ever bother to play it, even if i have the book on shelf (bought it to try and interest a person i know in the hobby), as so far my only real game experience seemed to hinge more on the style of dress of my character then much else...

Posted by: hyzmarca Feb 10 2010, 02:44 PM

One thing I found annoying about Bloodlines is the fact that normal humans can take multiple headshots without even noticing. I understand that it was meant to be accurate to the P&P rules, but humans should die when you make giant holes in their skulls by shooting them in the face multiple times. At the very least, they should be inconvienced.


Another thing I found funny is that despite the fact that both guns and Toreadors are fairly useless early on, once you've gotten a Steyr AUG your artsy-fartsy vampire can be the most deadly combat monster in the game. Because temporary bonuses aren't capped, Auspex can be used to give a character 13 in ranged combat (14 if he has a certain item that's only available in certain patches) Combine that with Celerity for super speed and the AUG's decent damage and superb full-auto accuracy and you're essentialy a vampire chainsaw that will cut through the most powerful boses with ease.

Posted by: tete Feb 10 2010, 11:54 PM

I would say its very replayable for a CRPG. Intimidate, Persuastion and Seduction will all change the dialog. A Social character vs a Physical character is a different way to aproach most quest (there is still some fighting but you can get through most of it talking). The Malks and Nos of course are extream variations in the dialog to. Add 5 endings to the mix and you can play through it with 3 (or more) characters and still have a very different game even if the overarching plot is the same.



As a Tory you should be social in the begining. Just walk up to the chemist and tell him your good for the money, or the cops saying your a news reporter etc etc.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 11 2010, 12:16 AM

Did you notice how the .38 Special cartridges are all hollow points? I thought it was hilarious that a gangbanger can take multiple JHPs to the head and be okay, but I honestly didn't mind because I understood that the game was being true to White Wolf, and that White Wolf was never intended to be realistic tactical combat.

I'm taking the time to aim for headshots, but I'm not 100% sure if the game is awarding me extra damage for headshots.

Posted by: tete Feb 11 2010, 12:54 AM

The .38 thing... do you realise that the accuracy is based on your characters skill and not where you aim? If you have a range of 3 and shoot someone "in the head" it does alot less damage than if you have a range of 7 and shoot someone "in the head" with the same gun. There are no "head shots" per say, aiming does add damage but your skill level means more. Aiming will add like +1 to +3 pts of damage were as each skill pt adds 1 pt (or more) of damage. IIRC headshots will grant a bonus 3 pts or so.

Posted by: hyzmarca Feb 11 2010, 08:04 AM

Toreadors are social, yes. The problem is that their stat bonus is in Charisma, not Manipulation. Seduction isn't a very useful skill (unless you're playing a female character). Its best use is to get free hookers, but that requires a big investment that male characters won't get any other significant benefits from. The best social characters both early on and later are Ventru and (oddly) Malkavalian (Dominate and Dementate help alot, especially Dementate).
Toreadors are the best choice for people who want to shoot things and seduce hookers. They're oddly baddass if you play them optimally, especially since melee combat is so easy early on that it doesn't matter that early guns suck.

.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 11 2010, 11:00 AM

I really liked the Malk dialog in the game. As long as the sewers don't make you leave the game in disgust, it's great.

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 11 2010, 01:24 PM

Well, compare to the PnP version of V:tM. Toreadors have, in my opinion, a very powerfel set of disciplines. Auspex, Celerity, and Presence are all potent in their own right. The higher ranks of Presence in PnP, are "always on" rather than needing to be activated. Consider that while in Elysium you are forbidden from using powers, Toreadors can frequently influence other vampires while in Elysium while other vampires are forbidden from doing so. Celerity is the best combat discipline of Fortitude, Celerity, and Potency. Then the perception based bonuses of Auspex are very nice as well.

So why do Toreadors not dominate everything? For the most part they're a bunch of narcissists, many despise fighting, and they exceedingly busy socializing to position themselves slight better than each other.

I had the fortune of playing a Toreador who considered fencing an art. He was shunned by most of the Toreadors in the city for it. The GM loved it because it let him really shake up the Toreadors in the city. I ended up being partially responsible for the death of the Toreador Primogen along with about 4 or 5 other 7-9th generation Toreadors. I ended up replacing the Prince's Sheriff when old Sheriff got killed. Good times.

Posted by: Adarael Feb 11 2010, 06:49 PM

Also because whenever the Toreadors in Elysium start tossing their Presence around like mad, there are always Ventrue and Brujah to tell them to shut the fuck up. And given the discipline breakdown, Ventrue can TAKE a hit, and Brujah can GIVE a hit, but Toreador can do neither except know why you want to hit them.

But yes. Presence is why those three clans have a tendancy to (overtly) run everything in the Camarilla. Other clans are more sneaky.

Me, I always liked the Sabbat. Religious fanatics, hurrah!

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 11 2010, 08:32 PM

And celerity lets you make way more hits. You didn't forget that Torries get Celerity, did you? I believe it's you get a number of additional actions equal to your celerity rating? Which means a Torrie fencer with a sword that deals aggravated damage is a huge PITA to kindred. IIRC it's the lower three ranks of presence that are notable. The top one is definitely passive. Also, don't undervalue Auspex, it's one of the few disciplines that can thwart Obfuscation.

Posted by: Adarael Feb 12 2010, 02:52 AM

Not at all. But in a throwdown between Celerity vs Celerity AND Potence, Celerity and Potence have a massive edge in raw screws-you-upitude. Auspex aside, Brujah and Toreador share two disciplines, and Auspex isn't nearly as combat ready as Potence. Sure, Auspex is useful, but it isn't as useful in terms of pushing people around.

Assuming we throw aside all "if I get out of clan Discipline X", both parties will be dealing lethal, but the Brujah will be dealing much more of it. Off the top of my head, the only thing I can think of that would let a Toreador fencer deal agg is Quietus (with a sword) and Protean (with claws). I suppose they could BITE you, but again, the Brujah have fangs too, and can deal damage that way as well.

As for a Ventrue, assuming equal levels of the disciplines (5 in all) and Generation, the Ventrue can just order the Toreador to "lick the bark off that tree as fast as you can", and that'll run a Toreador out of blood in a hurry.

Posted by: Critias Feb 12 2010, 07:23 AM

Where are you getting aggie damage swords in your average Vampire game?

And why the bejeebus would you give one to a Torrie, instead of a Brujah, if you DID come across one? Aggie damage and extra attacks is all well and good, but in a game with such a freakishly fickle die mechanic as WoD, aggie damage and extra attacks and auto damage successes is the way to go.

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 12 2010, 01:32 PM

I may have gotten my damage types screwed up. It's been quite awhile since I played so I am rather fuzzy on the rules.

And from a purely numerical, standard discipline, combat perspective, the Brujah is a better candidate if you're looking at raw damage.

Posted by: Adarael Feb 12 2010, 04:22 PM

That said, let no vampire go forth into the wilds of the World of Darkness without Auspex. To do so is a death sentence, not from combat, but from not knowing that the crap is going on.

Posted by: tete Feb 12 2010, 04:40 PM

IIRC (just like shadowrun) 2e the celerity monkey went first and used up all his attacks where as in revised celerity monkey still went first for his first attack but then had to wait for everyone else to go before getting to unleash doom. However the guy with potence in 2e could do pretty well with multiple attack to if he had a high enough die pool because if you potence of 4 or 5 who cares if your only doing 1 or 2 pts of damage from the accuracy of the attack, your getting 4 auto successes to damage (with only 7 health levels). I may be remebering it wrong but thats what I remember.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 12 2010, 11:39 PM

Freakishly fickle dice mechanic is right. I remember how the one and only time I played the PnP game how even though my character had full marks in blades or swords or whatever it was called I never really felt he was consistiently doing as well as he should have given that he had what was supposedly the highest level of skill possible in both mortal and immortal realms.

Posted by: Critias Feb 12 2010, 11:57 PM

And that's precisely the problem. In the fluff/descriptors, they act like there's a world of difference between, say, a two and a five. In real life, you're looking at maybe one more success, on average. Part of the blame lies in the adjustable TNs they used to use, part of it lies in how their specializations work (if you ave a 4+ and if the specialization applies and if you roll a 10 and if you don't roll a corresponding 1 to take the 10 away, then you get to reroll that die for another chance at a success), and part of it lay in their botch roll (with every '1' taking away, compounded by NOT every '10' doing anything extra). The end result was just a fundamentally flawed die mechanic. The success/fail mechanic got even worse when one realized that damage came in dice, not levels (Potence notwithstanding), so that every attack gave you two chances to get boned by the flawed probability of their core mechanic.

In one game, a buddy of mine (playing a Toreador, coincidentally) emptied a double-barreled shotgun into a ghoul (who had no armor, no fortitude, and no ability to soak the damage). The guy was quick and nimble with a high Dex, spent some blood to get an even higher Dex, and had invested heavily in Firearms as his only combat skill -- he was rolling 12 dice to hit, against an NPC who was being blindsided by the attack (so no dodge, either). He rolled terrible, magnificent, handfuls of dice that were more than the most well-trained Olympic marksman has ever rolled. The end result was absolutely zero levels of damage dealt, after loosing both barrels. He reloaded and fired again with Celerity actions, once again let fly a thunderous barrage of d10's and buckshot, and once again did precisely dick-all thanks to their silly damage dice.

Ah, fun, fun. Good times.

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 13 2010, 12:09 AM

sounds like a dice mechanic that was designed to get both GM and players to free form rather then roll...

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 13 2010, 03:10 AM

"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity."

Posted by: Critias Feb 13 2010, 03:53 AM

It may not have been designed that way, but yes. You're right. That's the excuse they used, later, when asked about it.

Posted by: tete Feb 13 2010, 08:33 AM

Look both shadowrun and vampire were heavly influence by Tom Dowd if not designed outright by him. If your Toreador got so many success on the hit those would have added to damage. For range combat to hit successes transfer to damage dice, melee do not (why I have no idea but thats the system). 1s DO NOT subtract on damage rolls (they do subtract on to hit rolls). 10s either exploded or counted for 2 depending on edition for damage rolls. Ghouls do not soak lethal damage, shotguns do lethal damage to anything that isnt undead (which you pointed out). There by that ghoul probabl should have exploded by the rules. Now the rules are written pretty badly with poor indexing but honestly most of the cases people point to someone wasnt following the rules. I'm not saying your senario couldnt happen but its highly suspect with gobs of dice to not get one 5 (shotgun tn 6 with slug lowered by one for buckshot). A single 5 is all he needed to roll his bucket o damage dice from the shotgun. It is possible to miss, great shooters still miss. Heck I once saw a relatively low TN in shadowrun (8 or something) and the sharp shooter missed with 50 dice.



Yes and no, it was intended to be that but combat was still really chunky and got in the way, but that may have been on purpose. Ars Magica being the prime example of why you would do that. What is known is that they ran into some of the shadowrun devs at gen con and pitched the idea to them, some of them signed on and they set out to design a system like shadowrun but with d10s.

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 13 2010, 09:30 AM

iirc, a clue file claims someone managed to roll all 1s on 30 dice back in SR2, so yes it can happen.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 13 2010, 04:37 PM

I'm having trouble with the quest where you must keep all the zombies in the graveyard. The closest I've made it to the end has been the 50 second mark so far. Around the 1 minute mark it seems like both gates have the potential to break down so quickly that even running back and forth between them I can't quite make it in time to finish the quest.

The scope wobble you get on zoomable weapons seems pretty extreme, as well. It takes me longer to aim a zoomed shot from the top of the mausoleum at the lower gate than it does to run all the way up and melee the zombies. I wonder if it's an error/oversight that they only gave you 4 rounds with the zoomable rifle?

According to a FAQ at Gamefaqs.com it's difficult but not impossible to finish that quest without Celerity, which I don't have, so I guess I'll have to keep trying.

Posted by: Critias Feb 13 2010, 05:50 PM

The only guy I played all the way through with was a Ventrue (of all things)...so no Celerity there. He was a Firearms guy, then branched into Melee when I had the points later in the game. I remember struggling on that level, but I don't remember exactly what sort of trick I used to wrap it up... so, uhh, I know I'm not being much help, but I guess my point is just that it is possible without Celerity.

When in doubt, I handled most of that game's problems with a shotgun.

Posted by: Critias Feb 13 2010, 05:59 PM

Okay. So?


That depending on what edition you were playing, but yes, it was generally true (in later editions successes transferred to melee damage pools as well). This guy had a great big bucketload of dice for damage.


Yeah, they do. The "rule of One" applied to every die roll, or at least it does in the three editions of Vampire I've played (I just flipped through the rulebooks to confirm it). It's not a bad house rule if your ST decided not to apply it to damage rolls...but as written, it applies to every die roll you make.


Yeah, we know. That's why the player was so frustrated. That's kind of the entire point to the story, in fact.


We were following the rules, thanks. It's just a fickle die mechanic, and this is one instance of it pissing on a player. In the end, he attacked the weapons dealer that sold him the sawed-off and the shells in the first place, convinced that the black marketeer had turned on him and was out to get him killed...and the rest of the coterie just played along, because it was really the best way to explain it in-game.


Right, but that's the thing. He didn't miss. He hit both times (firing both barrels each time), had 4-5 successes transfer over to damage dice...and then just couldn't roll high enough to inflict a single level of damage, despite doing shotgun base damage + shotgun base damage + transferred to-hit dice...twice, in one round.

d10's are fickle bitches. Their rule of one, and it not being counterbalanced neatly by their rule of ten, does nothing to help that.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 13 2010, 11:14 PM

I remember one guy had a house rule that tried to copy the World of Darkness botch rules and apply them to Shadowrun, and I remember how it really messed things up statistically.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 14 2010, 04:27 AM

I think I finished that quest without celerity using the bushhook and blood buff (does the chalice refill when you bring down zombies?). From what I remember, there's more pressure on the back door of the cemetary (near the house), so you have to spend more time down there than at the front door.

The gates bend over time as the zombies pile up, so if you can keep the population down, you also keep the gates from wearing out.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 14 2010, 05:41 AM

Right, it's more common for the rear gate to break on me than the front gate. I don't think you can feed on the zombies. The thing is the whole cemetary is spawning zombies but I generally only see up to 4 at a time on the gate. So now the next time I play I'm wondering if I should spend less time killing zombies that look like they're a potential problem and instead strictly kill zombies actually approaching the gate. Seems like a gate can go down in like 20 seconds so it's more important to manage the immediate problem than kill excess potential problem zombies.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 14 2010, 07:02 AM

Since the zombies keep spawning, and they only start breaking down the gate when they are pressed up against it there's no real reason to just massacre random zombies. Knocking them down, while moving by can sometimes also helps, since a replacement zombie won't spawn, and they'll have to spend time getting back up.

I'm not talking about feeding on the zombies, I'm talking about getting blood out of the flesh-crafted thing (odious chalice?) that gets a blood point every time you kill something. If I remember right, you get it from the vampire in the ruined hospital.

Posted by: tete Feb 15 2010, 08:28 PM

I stand corrected. As I looked through VtM 2nd and Revisesd, VtDA and DAV and found nothing about it. We must have picked it up from one of the other lines or house ruled it as we still play with the werewolf 1e perception instead of dex for range combat for all oWOD.

Posted by: Critias Feb 15 2010, 08:49 PM

I mean, it's not a bad house rule, really. It probably would've helped mitigate some of their innately skewed probability stuff... but, yeah. I was playing on-line a lot at the time, with rotating STs (on talkers, chatrooms, BBS, that sort of thing), so we were sticklers for the rules. The best way to be impartial was to use NO house rules at all, so everyone was on "the same page."

WoD just strikes me as a game where...well...that doesn't work real well. They put a lot of effort -- a lot of effort -- into the look and feel and attitude of the setting, and not so much on the mechanics themselves, and the game developers even said so. If that's not a situation that's ripe for some house-ruling, I dunno what is.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 15 2010, 10:23 PM

Well, I tried the cemetary quest again for another hour or so today, still no dice. The closest I got to the finish line was 40 or 50 seconds. The problem is around that time both gates are getting mobbed by close-spawning zombies.

I noticed that the pump action shotgun is less good at decapitating zombies than the .38. The pump action shotgun also causes a lot of problems due to its slow reload. Both the pump action shotgun and the semi-auto shotgun seem to miss headshots more than the .38, so the .38 might be the better way to go when there's a lot of zombies. One thing I noticed which is a pretty typical FPS engine fault is that it's very hard to score a headshot on a zombie from behind or from the side compared to from straight ahead. I also started to notice how a zombie can foul your frontal headshot if it raises its arms and charges at you since you might end up technically shooting it in the hand and not the head.

I wonder if I should try only meleeing zombies on my next attempt. Since the only time-efficient way to shoot the zombies is to shoot them in the head, and since this takes a second or two to do, maybe I can just run back and forth whacking them with the knife, especially seeing as you get random melee headshots all the time.

I didn't get the chalice. After all the time I spent exploring the map I cannot believe that I apparently missed an abandoned hospital.

A FAQ says the Colt Anaconda supposedly helps a lot with this level. Which I also don't have. Hmmph.

The perfectionist in me is causing my head to explode over this.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 15 2010, 10:56 PM

I just watched someone play through what seemed like a modded version of the game on YouTube. I think it's easier than mine. But one thing I noticed is that apparently only some of the zombies attack the gate. Some of them attack the player. Since I don't have Auspex I don't think it would be easy to tell the difference, but if I could figure out which zombies were the white aura ones that only attack the gate, and only attack those, I might have more of a chance.

One thing is that towards the end of the time I ended up getting drawn into more protracted engagements with all the zombies that were apparently heading towards the gate. But maybe a lot of them were actually just heading for me. Maybe I can take a few seconds to see which zombies are following me and which aren't, and only shoot the ones approaching the gate, while strictly ignoring all others even if they're near the gate.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8TjMPSgC28&feature=PlayList&p=02CF7ED7213F44C1&index=71

Posted by: Critias Feb 15 2010, 11:31 PM

I'd suggest either (a) trying a different level/quest/mission for a while, to maybe get better gear or Disciplines or whatever as well as to provide yourself with a break from a game being hard instead of fun...and (b) look into some of the PC cheats, if you're the sort who indulges. You can just tickety-tack onto the console and give yourself a little boost, then change it back (via console) after this level, if it'll mean the difference between finishing the game and hating the game it might be worth it.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 15 2010, 11:47 PM

Well, I'm in a situation where my last savegame outside of that quest might be a fair while back, and seeing as I haven't exhausted all ideas just yet, I think I've got a few playthroughs left.

Just now, I tried it again, using melee only (the knife, which is funny because my character didn't invest in the melee combat skill at all), and only attacking the zombies that seem to ignore the PC and instead head for the gate. I notice that with Blood Buff though it does almost the same damage as that other guy's fire axe.

This time I made it to 45 seconds.

Time to try it one more time and see if I can do better......

EDIT: 38 SECONDS! Just need to do a little bit better...

EDIT 2: 4 SECONDS! 4 FREAKING SECONDS! AHHHHHGHHHGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Posted by: tete Feb 16 2010, 05:08 AM

Have you tried to go get the girl while he takes care of the zombies? Thats what I do with my social types. Also what disciplines do you have and at what level?

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 16 2010, 05:31 AM

The ruined hospital is downtown, there a chain-link fence that you go past, and then sorta down underground. I think it's right next to where you originally started out downtown.

If you are going to use guns, You are probably better off switching between different guns rather than reloading, so you can keep shooting. And then reloading while you are moving to the other side to cover the other gate

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 17 2010, 01:18 AM

I haven't tried that one on account of not having a convieniently placed savegame. At this point having invested so much time and effort into the cemetary quest I kind of feel like I have to beat it. Since I came so close last time it must be possible. I keep getting a little more efficient each time. I'm refining my course through the cemetary to reduce lag time between each gate.

I'm playing a Gangrel, and I have exclusively been putting my EXP into Quickness, Firearms, Brawling, and Security. I haven't bothered to level up anything else, including the Disciplines, so I'm stuck with Fortitude (useless for this), Nightwing Ravens (useless for this), and that third power that lets you see thermal (useless for this). Hypothetically if I'd gotten the claws that might be useful but I didn't. So, actually, I've gotten within 4 seconds of success running around using only the knife and a melee weapons skill of 1. I guess it just goes to show you how skill levels don't make that much of a difference in White Wolf.

Since I made a firearms character for this my first run through the game, I think I ended up getting sidetracked for a while on this quest trying to go for headshots, which are basically too slow even with EXP invested in firearms.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 17 2010, 01:20 AM

Thanks for the location info.

Yes, I tried using firearms a lot in the beginning but had a lot less success. Basically the .38 is better for headshots than the shotgun (!) but even then the slow reticles and issues with the hitbox make it too slow IMO to go for headshots. I say this after many firearms-only attempts.

One aggravating thing was that even switching weapons instead of reloading is very slow. And it's not possible to finish reloading the pump action shotgun without pretty much doing it on your sprint over. I feel like they really tried to nerf firearms in this game.

EDIT: 2.93 SECONDS!!!! For some reason I want to scream "WOOOLVERRINNNEEEESSS!"

Posted by: hyzmarca Feb 17 2010, 02:13 AM

It isn't that firearms are nerfed so much that early firearms are utter crap. As I stated earlier, the Steyr is the best weapon in the game and can potentially slaughter some very powerful bosses that require a great deal of effort to defeat without it. Even the Sheriff goes down hard if you empty a few magazines into him. Firearms won't really be useful until you get the Anaconda and the automatic shotgun. The .38 is just utterly worthless as a weapon and the pump action shotgun isn't much better.

Don't bother with headshots. Speed is too important. Go for the center mass and fire multiple shots.

The only problem with this tactic is that you're limited ammo capacity will become annoying in the last two maps, when you can't retreat and can only restock from fallen enemies.

Unpatched blood buff maxes out your physical stats. That gives you a melee score of 6 when using it. Remember, stats and skills are added together.

If you've been investing in firearms and perception then it will pay off in SMG accuracy. With a low ranged combat rating the SMGs spread like sumbeeches and can't really hit anything even at point blank range. With a high ranged combat rating the Steyr is as precise as a scalpel and the Uzi isn't much worse.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 17 2010, 03:18 AM

WOOHOOO EJKJKEEGGAAAHHHAAA I COMPLETED THE QUEST!

Time for some pump-up music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADO_YYaUfgo&feature=related

Okay, so here's a rundown of what I did. This is without using any Disciplines (except for Blood Buff), as I didn't have any applicable ones, and with a Quickness of 5, melee skill of 1, and a firearms skill of 3 or 4.

I began to memorize the spawn locations of the zombies who will go after the gate. Basically, there are I think about 5 points that will spawn gatecrasher zombies per gate, maybe more, but if a zombie isn't coming from a gatecrasher spawnpoint I am more likely to ignore them, whereas if I see a zombie from a gatecrasher spawnpoint I'll kill it even as it's spawning.

The first gatecrasher zombie spawns near the top gate at the 4 minute mark. Once you finish him off you need to get to the bottom gate before 3:30 to get the next gate crasher zombie. Beyond that you kind of need to feel out a balance from killing off enough potential problem zombies where you are and getting back to the other gate before the zombies damage it too much. I don't really know the exact numbers but I started to keep a running mental count of about how many zombies I ought to kill per trip.

I found that when you're arriving before the zombies reach the gate and you can run in front of them you can save time by walking right up to them and shooting them in the head with the .38. The shotgun is too slow between shots and reloads. You can also shoot zombies in the head as they're spawning out of the ground, whereas you can't stab them right away. It's fastest to .38 zombies you can step directly in front of, but since it's very hard to get headshots from behind or the side if the zombies are already at the gate it's faster to knife them. The key to this is that the gatecrasher zombies WILL NOT ATTACK YOU NO MATTER WHAT. So you can get right up in front of them till you're touching.

You have more situational awareness in melee mode so I found that it's important to look around and gather as much about your surroundings as possible whenever you're not operating a firearm. Basically the key thing is to observe which zombies seem to be heading for the gate instead of for you. The real essence of this all is to prioritize zombies and as much as possible ignore all the zombies that aren't heading towards the gate.

I noticed that I ran slightly faster with Blood Buff, so I started Blood Buffing every time I ran for the other gate starting at around the 3:00 or 2:30 mark.

Anyway, the reward that I'd wanted for this quest, +1 to firearms skill, wasn't available to me because my firearms skill was already too high. Instead I got the stupid zoomable rifle with the Parkinson's scope wobble. So the final irony is that I got a crap reward for finishing this quest, which took several days and many hours of effort to finally accomplish.

Posted by: Critias Feb 17 2010, 04:26 AM

Good job! Now go buy your Brawl-oriented Gangrel some friggin' claws!

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 17 2010, 12:49 PM

Protean - Eyes of the Beast

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 18 2010, 04:42 AM

Maybe I ought to. My plan had been to be a firearms guy, but having just gone through the Warrens I feel totally starved for ammo. I'd have shot dead all the monsters in the Warrens on principle (usually when I play FPS games I play by the Shaka Zulu principle of never leaving live enemies behind me) but I didn't have enough ammo to even do that so I ended up sneaking past them all instead, which is always ridiculously easy compared to actually fighting. The ammo shortage is worse than in System Shock. Even buying enough ammo to shoot everyone right and proper takes most of my character's funds, and since my character is now poor, no ammo.

So I might have to get the claws just for lack of cartridges.

As an aside, I'd experimented on a savegame with buying the claws back during the cemetary quest, but I found that they actually hurt you in that quest because when you've got the claws you start prancing slowly like the goddamned wolfman and can't run as fast.

Posted by: Critias Feb 18 2010, 04:50 AM

A Gangrel without claws, is just...just...*twitches*...that's like a Street Samurai without a Smartlink, man!

But yeah, they're solely for asskicking time, in the video game. Not so great for hauling butt, but terrific for making big slashy tears in people you don't like. Toss in a decent Brawl skill and a little Blood Buff, and you're golden.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 18 2010, 08:12 AM

Another thing worth mentioning that isn't obvious is that claws do aggravated damage. The soak pools of monsters also determine how much damage they take, and everything have a much lower aggravated damage soak pool. That's why the sword that does agg damage is usually a better choice than the bushhook (which has a higher base damage) but only does lethal damage. That's also why the knife is a step above your hands when it comes to the killin' it changes the damage you do to lethal, while your hands only do bashing damage.

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 18 2010, 09:00 AM

end result is that the owod system had 3 damage tracks, but stacked into one.

iirc, bashing could be overwritten by lethal while aggravated overwrite bashing and pushed lethal ahead of it.

bashing and lethal goes byebye with a bit of blood for a vampire, even aggravated goes away for a werewolf, while anything but bashing was a death sentence for a careless mage...

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 18 2010, 09:11 AM

Eh? It was vampires that had trouble with aggravated damage, as they couldn't soak it normally, and could only heal 1/level a night (iirc). A mage that takes aggravated damage just slaps some life magic on and is fine. If you don't have life then any sort of damage is bad, as you don't heal any faster than a normal guy. From what I remember, mages soaks aggravated damage as normal, and most of the interesting combat effects tended to produce aggravated damage by default

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 18 2010, 09:17 AM

note the careless part

btw, i did a bit of checking, and magical healing of aggravated damage was vulgar, inviting all kinds of additional problems...

Posted by: Professor Evil Overlord Feb 18 2010, 09:40 AM

Post mage 1st ed, mages couldn't soak aggro or even lethal without using magic to give them the ability to do so, ie grow armor with life. As mortals, they can only soak bashing without using magic or armor. Since pretty much everything in the game is lethal or aggro, combat could get really deadly. Mages are just about the only supernatural that is worse off than a vamp (the other big one being hunters). Of course, any group of mages would include a couple of life capable casters who could just buff the whole group, unlike vamps who would each have to invest in fortitude (or one of the other disciplines that allowed aggro soaking at higher levels).

The changes to how damage was tracked was one of the biggest difference between the earlier white wolf games and the later 2nd/3rd (ok, revised) ones. It was an attempt to try and shore up a completely unrealistic damage system, where average people could shrug off small arms fire with minimal injuries. So they shifted from normal/aggro for damage to bashing/lethal/aggro. They then "fixed" combat by taking the soak test away from mortals for lethal damage, and rolled mages into the category of mortals. This made them very squishy, because, as you pointed out, pretty much everything magical is aggro or at least the also unsoakable lethal.

On the other hand it didn't really fix all that much because the problem really tended to crop up because a poor shot couldn't really boost up the low base damage all that much, especially for firearms. If a bad shot was coupled with a low damage roll people could literally take no damage before soaking. It was even worse in dark ages games where ranged weapons were even weaker. In dark ages vampire I've seen arrows bounce off of peasants far too often for my taste (damage 2 from a short bow, so a 25% no damage unless you had net successes to hit!). The group I played with were RAW up until then but we quickly adopted the GM's house rules after a few incidents like that.

Posted by: tete Feb 18 2010, 05:44 PM

So when I play bloodlines I pick a single discipline to upgrade first then I spend 1/2 my XP on that and 1/2 on everything else. I also save my everything else XP until I need it for some reason. Always go for the cheapest route to get your +1. Once my one discipline is at 5 then I pick a second one to start upgrading. You may want to try this method if you decide to play through it again, I find it works really well. There are 5 endings to go through, plus about 4 game types though some can be combined (malk, nos, phys, social). Personally after playing the gangrel I would go for a social character next, that would be someone with dominate or presence. Then play the malk and lastly the nos. The nos I find is a VERY different game just by being soo limited on the social.

Posted by: Critias Feb 18 2010, 05:49 PM

In a (fairly) recent Vampire game, my Anarch-turned-Scourge Brujah got into a scrap with five Sabbat. At once. By himself (but that's okay, the rest of the coterie wouldn't have been much help). I should point out, by the way, that this guy was a Social then Physical sort of character -- despite being an Anarch Brujah Biker type, he was the sort that was a charismatic, would-be-freedom-fighter, sort, with more points in Empathy and Leadership than Brawl and Dodge. He had respectable combat stats, but he wasn't your min/maxed combat monkey.

Luckily -- for me, not the Sabbat -- our ST wasn't really "up" on the damage system. We played by the Rule of Cool quite a bit in that short-lived campaign, and it carried over into fighting. My character drew his WWII veteran father's lucky old Ka-Bar, and commenced to slaughtering. Two Sabbies unloaded Uzis at him, one grew Black Talons, one (in a velvet suit) came at him with a rapier, and their resident Brujah Anti snarled and tore the fender off a nearby truck to start swinging at me like a bat.

I boosted Stamina, and then didn't bother to dodge or parry a damned thing except the one with the claws, because frankly he was the only one I was scared of.

Bullets do "bashing" damage to Vampires, which means Licks not only get to soak it, but it gets cut in half after the soak. Likewise, a fender -- even one wielded by a character with a little Potence -- is obviously bashing damage. They nickled and dimed me a bit with all the guns and such, and the whip-thin Toreador Anti with his rapier stung a little, but every hit I landed with my knife (lethal damage, with Potence to back it up), they were feeling (compared to his own rapier, which I was able to soak away to nothing thanks to spending blood heavily on Stamina).

Ah, good times, good times. The rest of the Coterie rounded the corner on about Round 4 or 5 of my aborted recon stealth mission, to find Elijah the Scourge battered and bloody, with a headless Toreador Anti on the ground, a blood-slick knife next to the corpse, and with my mouth latched onto the neck of the Sabbat Gangrel, who I grappled and drank dry (in the opposed Str vs. Str tests that ensue), with the rest of the Sabbat pack high-tailing it out of there.

Damage type, in other words, is VERY important in determining the outcome of a combat.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 19 2010, 04:06 AM

I don't like what the revised damage system did to mage. It leads too much to mages having the adventure from teh safety of their couches (which mages are mostly capable of doing)

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 19 2010, 04:06 AM

I don't like what the revised damage system did to mage. It leads too much to mages having the adventure from teh safety of their couches (which mages are mostly capable of doing)

Posted by: Professor Evil Overlord Feb 19 2010, 09:00 AM

Personally, I don't like the revised damage rules period. The distinction between bashing and lethal is counter intuitive at best. Why can mortals suddenly not soak anything other than fists and clubs? A weedy 100 pound teenager was suddenly just as tough against a knife as a pro boxer. Really? Aggro and lethal were exactly the same for soaking for fae, mages, shapeshifters, and mortals. They could either soak everything or nothing at all. You could be killed just as easily by bashing/lethal/aggro. For fae and shapeshifters all three types of damage were exactly the same when it came to soaking. You rolled the exact same number of dice against the same difficulty. Once your damage track filled up you were just as helpless and just as dead. It was just a silly way to make mages and mortals stupidly weak in combat.

The distinction between the three only really made a difference for vampires, who took half damage from bashing and couldn't soak aggro without using disciplines (fortitude was the easiest, but not the only way). For some reason, they decided guns were bashing against vamps. I guess they wanted melee to be better. So much better that you stood to do more damage with a knife (STR+1 lethal) than most firearms (3-8 bashing). Especially since you could use blood and potence to massively raise HTH damage anyways. Things were skewed enough already, and now guns did half damage on top. The best part was that arrows did lethal. You were actually better off with weapons that were several hundred years out of date.

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 19 2010, 09:46 AM

i suspect this shows that vampire was the focus of owod fully, with the other branches a nice account filler, but nothing really important to the company.

Posted by: tete Feb 19 2010, 03:55 PM

While Vampire was a big portion (especially of the LARP community). Werewolf and Mage were very successful lines.

Posted by: Critias Feb 19 2010, 06:21 PM

Yeah, the big damage change pretty much made Mages into glass cannons.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 20 2010, 12:34 AM

I also noticed and was amused by how in the video game the hunters tended to run around with crossbows.

So crossbows, which do the same thing as rifles in terms of piercing flesh with a pointy high velocity object, somehow do a lot more damage...because the bolt doesn't spin? Because the velocity is lower?

By that logic I should be able to cold-load some .45 ACP cartridges and slow them down enough to make them do crossbow bolt damage, or maybe cold load some shotgun slugs and fire them out of a short-barrelled shotgun. Or maybe I should use a 50 caliber blackpowder flintlock pistol for uber damage because it'd be slow and large.

Posted by: hyzmarca Feb 20 2010, 01:45 AM

I imagine that the logic behind that is in the fact that arrowheads are usually sharp and sharp things do lethal damage. Though I could be wrong.

Posted by: hobgoblin Feb 20 2010, 08:06 AM

also, there is the wood issue

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 20 2010, 06:43 PM

So, wait, in WOD, werewolves are, like, immune to everything?

Posted by: Karoline Feb 20 2010, 10:32 PM

So, skipping over reading all the stuff about WOD games in general and getting to the OP:

I've played the game before (Got it two or three years ago Halloween from steam at like 75% off) and very much suggest getting the unofficial patches. It's been so long that I very much don't remember what the changes where, but I remember that I liked them.

Malkavian is definitely worth a playthrough. Maybe not the first time (Because you won't know what the options mean sometimes), but definitely before you start skipping through all the chat, because actually reading the options and getting all the jokes and such is great.

Nosforatu is also cool to go through and see all the things they've actually gone through the trouble to change, but it can get somewhat confusing as to when letting people see you does or doesn't count as an infraction.

Say hi to Cain for me.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 20 2010, 11:31 PM

How can you apply unofficial patches to a Steam version? Also, are there any mods or patches you'd recommend over the others? There seem to be a few out there.

Posted by: Critias Feb 21 2010, 02:23 AM

Not necessarily. They just tend to always be wolfed out and sporting huge soak pools, plus they regenerate in a few of their forms (one health level a turn is pretty awesome on a seven-health-level scale). Silver will fuck their shit up, though, being impossible for them to soak AND hard for 'em to heal.

Posted by: Karoline Feb 21 2010, 02:30 AM

As I recall you have to go into your C:\program files\Steam\steamapps\vampire folder and just run or unzip or whatever the patch there and it should work fine. You might have to change a .ini file slightly, but I don't recall it being a particularly difficult process. Remember that there are steam forums for all the different games, I wouldn't be surprised if someone has posted instructions.

I haven't tried any mods beyond the unofficial patches, so no idea on any of them. Oh, and I do remember that the patch changes something in the hotel and possibly the hospital as well... maybe in the castle, where some items are and such. Mostly just makes the game more stable as I remember a couple of crashes and glitches before patching and no troubles afterwards.

Like I said, got it.. guess it would be two and a half years ago almost now and haven't played it in a while. Very good game though, as I still remember large chunks of it.

Posted by: Professor Evil Overlord Feb 21 2010, 04:07 AM

Let's be clear here. Fire arms were lethal damage to everyone except vampires. For some reason vampires took bashing damage, which was halved after soaking, from guns. No justifiable explanation was ever given. They just seemed to want to slant things even more in the favor of melee. The best explanation I've heard was that it helped to make vampires more competitive in a mixed modern WOD game. They are, hands down, the weakest of the big three (vamp/werewolf/mage).



Definatly icing on the cake. Get enough extra success and you got to stake (paralyze) the vamp.






Sort of. They could soak silver while in their breed form. So werewolves born as humans were ok in human form, those as wolves in wolf form. The nasty thing was that the metis (born as a werewolf) could shrug it off in werewolf form (they suffered over flaws to compensate). Oh, and there was a merit that let you soak silver in any form.

They healed 1 level of lethal or bashing per round. Aggro took longer to heal. They soaked both the same. They could also use rage to heal several levels at once, even from silver but were limited to how often they could do it (once/scene IIRC). Keep in mind though that basically anything that could stand up to a werewolf for more than a round was probably also able to inflict aggro and could soak aggro themselves.

Posted by: tete Feb 21 2010, 04:09 AM

In the PnP it doesnt actually do more damage (not entirely true as a bow with the right arrow tip does lethal rather than bashing like guns) you just have a chance of staking the vampire thus paralyzing it. I can't recall if the video game reflects this or not.

The reasoning (if you want one) is guns do a lot of trama to organs through kinetics. Vampires are dead thus the only thing that matter is the brain and the heart, the rest of the organs don't do anything. Blades rip through muscle (they assume you are slashing) and sometimes bone, thus destroying the ability to manipulate the body part. Your claws are "mystical" which means they do agro for being "mystical".

I'm not saying it is great reasoning but it is the reasoning.



Think D&D Troll, they regen like they weren't even hit unless the damage is the right type (aggravated).

Posted by: Crusher Bob Feb 21 2010, 04:18 AM

The patch adds some stuff with your ghoul, changes where you get the agg damage sword, and changes around the hospital quests a little, iirc.

But yes, the malk dialogue is great, since you can say things that are true, but you don't know in character. For example, (iirc) when you first meet Jack in the alley, one of your dialogue choices is "and here's the plot of the game!"

Posted by: hyzmarca Feb 21 2010, 02:22 PM

http://www.patches-scrolls.de/vampire_bloodlines.php

This is the definitive unofficial patch and it restores a great deal of content that was removed from the game late in development, including the dragonbreath shotgun (which is less useful than you'd think).


As for the mods, there can be issues of compatibility. The Cammirilla mod on the page I just linked to makes huge game changes and isn't compatible with the unofficial patch. The Companion Mod is based around an older version of the unofficial patch and thus possibly not compatible with newer versions. The Heather Live mod is based around an extremely old version of the patch.

I haven't tried the Clan Quest Mod, but I understand it is based around the unofficial patch version 6.5 (relatively recent) and can is compatible with the Arsenal Mod (which adds some new guns). There are also a few mods that just improve the graphics and thus shouldn't interfere with other mods.

The unofficial patch has an automated installer. Some others do, too. For those that don't it's a simple matter of unziping them in the correct folder.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 22 2010, 02:02 AM

Well, I finished the game yesterday evening in a final five or so hour marathon stretch. I guess this whole post is going to be full of spoilers...

It seems like the game would be tough to play through as either a melee-only or firearms-only character. There's a LOT more enemies than bullets up until the very end of the game and enemies tend to require multiple headshots to bring down. The Steyr AUG's zoomed headshots I squeezed off one at a time were probably less effective in dropping people than a .22LR to the face would be in real life. In that way, Vampire definitely stays true to its roots as a pen and paper game because your l33t FPS skills really can only take you so far. Uh, I also felt that the two end bosses pretty much required firearms to be able to beat...



I enjoyed most of the game and thought the characters and the quests on the whole were quite good, as was the atmosphere. I felt like the quests were better and a bit more complex towards the beginning of the game than the end, but I actually feel that way about a lot of RPGs.

As a big FPS gamer and recreational shooter, I did take issue with some of the firearms. Why does the uzi do more damage per shot than the Steyr AUG? Shouldn't the "Jamie Sue" do more damage, seeing as it's the only 30 caliber rifle in the game? Is a "saturday night special" a .38, and if so, why is the LAPD walking around with "saturday night specials"?

Honestly, the interface for selecting firearms was absolutely HORRIBLE. A lot of times when I died it was because I'd spent the whole battle fumbling around with the F2 key and the mouse wheel trying to select the right firearm and pulling out the wrong one. Doom made it easier to pick the right firearm than this game.

I felt stealth and sneaking was kind of shoddily implemented. As it so happened my character had a high stealth score and during a lot of the game he could just crouchwalk everywhere and be hilariously unnoticed by everyone. It looked surreal, was uber IMO, and I felt that stealth had some real rough edges in terms of implementation.

I actually felt that a lot of the boss battles were quite challenging, especially when played in first person mode. The key to avoiding attacks seems to be to jump away at the right moment but it's not always clear when the attack animation is done doing damage, so timing it right can be pretty tough.

On the whole a very good RPG, and I'm planning to do all the recommended play-throughs and check out the community patches. I guess just a few rough edges.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Feb 22 2010, 03:40 AM

Well, I just started my second playthough. I figured I should do a social playthrough now as that's what people recommended. So I'm doing a female vampire named "Social" and I'm basically going to load up all the social stuff. I guess I can't neglect some of the combat stuff, though, because I presumably still need to get through the boss fights.

Posted by: Critias Feb 22 2010, 05:21 AM

Overall, it really is a pretty good game (my kvetching about the core RPG aside). The various endings can be a lot of fun, playthroughs can feel very different based on your character choice, and while you never quite get the "woah" feeling from some of the scenes on second and subsequent viewings, it remains a solid video game that's aged fairly well. It's one I wish we'd get a follow-up for, even if it'd be set in their new WoD which I'm not nearly as familiar with.

Posted by: hyzmarca Feb 22 2010, 07:42 AM

The Sheriff is a puzzle boss for melee characters. There is a way to beat him but it's convoluted.

As for the endings

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 22 2010, 12:15 PM

I've applied the Aliens Vs. Predator trinity to WoD. I reckon that werewolves are predators, vampires are aliens, and mages are like the space marines.



Friggin trolls, the bane of any low level PC.

Posted by: tete Feb 22 2010, 06:00 PM

Many Disciplines (like Thalmaturgy, Dominate, etc) are range attacks. The trick is blood management. When going into combat with a social character I use weapons as a last resort when I'm low on blood. Taking 2 dots in firearms and melee is cheap but brawl you will need to keep raising in order to feed.

[edit] example with dominate is blowing up the Sabbat at the begining. You sneak in then drop down in an area and use trance on shotgun boy then suicided everyone else, then feed on shogun boy. Rinse wash repeat.

Posted by: Karoline Feb 22 2010, 09:10 PM

Just so I don't have to worry about what is and isn't spoiler:

Posted by: Critias Feb 22 2010, 09:51 PM

The Clan are the "Tremere," for the record. Big ol' pains in the butt, in a tabletop game (they've just got some weird abilities, and can be a handful for an ST to keep track of)!

Posted by: tete Feb 22 2010, 10:51 PM

I always loved the Tremere, though some of their powers in the pnp game are very difficult to find a situation to use. Its one of the few clans were being lower gen wasnt as big of an advantage. (it was still an advantage just not as big of one)

Posted by: Critias Feb 23 2010, 02:25 AM

I'd say that depended -- almost entirely, in this case -- on how heavily you invested in Dominate instead of Thaumaturgy.

Posted by: tete Feb 23 2010, 05:30 AM

I mean that there are some specific Thalmaturgy powers that are VERY specific situations. Especially when not just looking at Blood. And they were less lower gen = win than say Gangrel, Brujah or some of the other clans (Its still there just not as much).

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Apr 6 2010, 02:11 AM

I am noticing that whenever I hit a segment with scripted NPC movement and dialogue my game seems to get stuck now. The game doesn't crash, but it's like the scripting isn't working properly anymore. I had gone ahead and installed the community patch, which I had been enjoying, but somehow maybe it broke the scripting? What should I do, re-install it through Steam?

Posted by: Karoline Apr 26 2010, 02:04 AM

Never had that problem that I recall. I suggest deleting your local content, reinstalling via steam, and they re-applying the patch. Maybe do a local backup before you do the patch so if it keeps messing up you don't have to re-download again.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Apr 26 2010, 05:04 AM

Yeah, when I have a little more time I'll have to attempt a re-install.

Posted by: Tanegar Mar 3 2012, 08:29 PM

Thread necromancy go!

I bought Bloodlines yesterday when Steam had it for 75% off ($4.99). Started off playing a female Brujah, got to the confrontation with Jeanette and Therese, realized I'd made the wrong choices to be able to save them both (or at least Jeanette; yes, it's because I want to save the slutty vampire in a schoolgirl outfit), and restarted as a female Tremere. Her name is Raven, for maximum angsty-Goth ridiculosity.

Posted by: Seriously Mike Mar 4 2012, 06:52 PM

I played the game long ago and quit it in disgust before the cargo ship mission. Mostly because I was being served shovel after shovel of bullshit sprinkled with nonsense and utter disregard for the system.
First, no ghoul is going to scream "HEY YOU'RE A VAMPIRE!" in the middle of the fucking street, at least not to a Brujah who is going to feed him a knuckle sandwich for that (sadly, it's not an option here). Second, no stealth unless you got Obfuscate - that's a joke. Third, what the fuck is a Nagaraja doing in LA? All that and absolutely horrid graphics (take a look up close at the dancers in red at the Asylum club. They're so horribly off-model it's not even funny. That and the person responsible for shaders on the characters' eyes fucked the job BADLY).
That and then there's a WERESHARK in one of the side missions. Wereshark. WHAT. THE. FUCK.

Posted by: CanRay Mar 4 2012, 07:00 PM

Tried a Mage game once as a player... I was the only Mage. Everyone else was from a different WoD game.

It was interesting, kind of like a dysfunctional "Cheers" at a Heavy Metal bar my character owned. And then there was the illegal street racing.

Posted by: Tanegar Mar 4 2012, 11:45 PM

You mean a Rokea? Yes, weresharks are canon in oWoD. Dunno about nWoD.

Posted by: Seriously Mike Mar 5 2012, 08:17 AM

BUT OF COURSE they were canon! It was just that the writers apparently got their hands on every "each new one gets more stupid" splatbooks and shoved so much shit into the game it became unplayable!

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 6 2012, 12:15 AM

Seriously, Mike?

Posted by: Seriously Mike Mar 6 2012, 11:33 AM

Yeah, pretty much. It's a pretty popular opinion that splatbooks for oWoD were sometimes adding unbelievable amounts of bullshit (example: Samuel Haight). As I said, I quit in disgust - they were selective about canon, and badly selective at that. I haven't played as a Toreador, though, but I do believe that then I'd quit even faster (during the gallery mission) - bullshit blood spirits pouring out of the paintings are one thing, going blatantly against Toreador's clan weakness while being unable to just deny the mission would be much more serious.
Also, loading times. Jesus Christ, loading times. Have a level load for five minutes on a powerful machine, walk through it in a minute, have another level load for five minutes, only to have a conversation I skip halfway through every quote because I read subtitles faster than the voice actor plays his part.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Mar 7 2012, 08:09 AM

My only real experience with playing Vampire was a Dark Ages LARP, where the guy running it was a good friend who told me, "Hey, I need some guys I trust to play the high powered NPCs". I agreed and got handed a character sheet labeled "Lancelot".

Yes. THAT Lancelot. The NPCs were all Arthurian Legend characters, all like 5th or 6th generation vampires. Setting was the War of the Roses historical period.

The players were given 9th and 10th gen vampire templates they could tweak. Most that showed up were used to standard Masquerade LARPs. Soon after we started, one group began with the stereotypical prissy angsty mincing political maneuvering. They were pretty shocked that when they annoyed King Arthur, he unlimbered a greatsword and cut one of them in half.



And, oh, gods, when a 5th Gen uses Presence...



-k

Posted by: Tanegar Mar 7 2012, 08:55 AM

Every Vampire game I've ever heard of was a LARP. Didn't anyone play it around a freaking table?

Posted by: Seriously Mike Mar 7 2012, 12:20 PM

We did. Which resulted in a couple of epic scenes involving property damage.

Posted by: Critias Mar 7 2012, 03:01 PM

Yeah, that sounds about like most Vampire LARPs. GMs and their buddies running demigods, the little people playing by the rules.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 7 2012, 05:12 PM

do tell!

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 7 2012, 07:08 PM

I only ever played it around a table.

Posted by: Seriously Mike Mar 8 2012, 08:56 AM

Well, two car chases in London. One ended up with my character's BMW totaled, an Assamite flung through the windshield of his car and passenger side door, hitting my character and tossing her out along with the driver side door. Then we had a scuffle on the road, my character shot the Assamite's eyes out and got hit by acid barf while escaping (Assamite wasn't too thrilled about being temporarily blinded), luckily most of it landed on the leather jacket which I promptly ditched.
During another one, I had to drive the Prince's Mercedes as a decoy. Blue Oni's character (who can't shoot) managed to stop the pursuing car with a shotgun (a slug to the radiator works wonders ).
Then there was the incident where I tried to run over a demon using a dump truck. I never expected that the truck would flip through the air and land wheels-up on a fountain.
And bailing out of the tenth floor of Warsaw Marriott Hotel, then making a run for it into the tunnels under Central Station. Yes, there was a Nosferatu hideout there, as to be expected.

That can't be LARPed. But it's epic.

Posted by: Critias Mar 8 2012, 03:38 PM

Says who?

Posted by: CanRay Mar 8 2012, 06:24 PM

Your lawyer, after you find out that your car can outrun a cruiser but not the police band.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 8 2012, 11:16 PM

@Mike: and here i thought tables had been broken because you were playing vampire . .

Posted by: Seriously Mike Mar 9 2012, 08:32 AM

Considering the Brujah are my favorite, you were close.

Posted by: Thanee Mar 9 2012, 12:38 PM

Vampires are as vain as everyone else (or even moreso), and if you have the means...

Besides, it is a useful way to keep the bloodflow steady.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Mar 9 2012, 02:37 PM

"Ahh, dammit, I got syphillis in my bloodflow again! I thought we were through with that crap in the 70s!"

EDIT:

Or, since you're actually centuries old,

"Zounds! 'Tis the French disease, I taste it distinctly, in the blood of this, this...'clubber'!"

Posted by: Critias Mar 9 2012, 09:31 PM

Of course, most importantly, it was a way for White Wolf to appeal to their chosen demographic, and make their gamers feel like trendy club-hopping cool kids, instead of just another bunch of gamers.

Posted by: Angelone Mar 11 2012, 07:11 PM

Hmm still have the game on my computer. I'm gonna play it again and actually try the zombie mission this time. Maybe a Tremere so I can sith people.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Mar 12 2012, 05:30 PM

The game is worth playing through on a Malkavian at least once for the really amusing work they put into the crazy. Like the TV news broadcaster talking to YOU and having a conversation with a stop sign. NO YOU STOP!

Posted by: Bigity Mar 13 2012, 02:59 AM

That was highly amusing.


Well played, sign. Well played.