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Posted by: _Pax._ Dec 27 2012, 05:05 AM

Yep. My wonderful, three year old but still gaming-powerful PC, has died. I bricked it, somehow, whl installing the Blu-Ray Drive I got for Christmas. Must have caused a short across the mainboard, and fried the CMOS / BIOS / whatchamacallit-thingie (nope, I'm not a computer guru).

...

Needless to say, I was ... "most displeased", let us say. My glorious 3.2GHz quad-core, NVidia GTX275 - pretty darned nice when it was new, and still decent even now - won't even boot to the point of SHOWING the BIOS. I had planned a replacement ... in exactly three more years, after a lengthy stretch of saving money.

*cry*

Well, thanks to a wonderfully generous family, I'll have a replacement, hopefully within the month (depends how quickly they can get it assembled and out the door) from iBuyPower.

In somewhat brief:

Case: Thermaltake Armor Revo, White
CPU: AMD FX-8350 CPU (8x 4.00GHz/8MB L2 Cache)
System Memory: 16 GB DDR3-2133 (Corsair Vengeance)
Video: Dual AMD Radeon HD 7970, 3GB - CrossFire
Power Supply: 1200 Watt Thermaltake Toughpower
System Drive: 480 GB Intel 520 SSD
Data Drive: 2 TB Western Digital Black HARD DRIVE
Optical Drive: [12X Blu-Ray] LG BLU-RAY Re-Writer, DVD±R/±RW Burner Combo Drive
Operating System: Windows 7 Professional, 64 Bit
Monitor: 32" LCD Sceptre X328BV-FHD

... plus sound reduction, "professional" wiring / wire-sleeving, case lighting, and so forth.

...

So. A serious upgrade. And within what my budget WOULD have been (this is $3500, including delivery ... my budget was $4000 to $4500 ... I'll end up paying $4000 to the family member lending me the money up front).

It's just ... I was really looking forward to NOT needing a loan to buy this computer.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Dec 27 2012, 06:18 AM

Um...

You could just get an identical motherboard of the same make-and-model and drop it in. If the mobo was the only thing broken, fixing it shouldn't be too hard. If the CPU went, it'll be pricy, but still not as bad as a whole new replacement.

Posted by: _Pax._ Dec 27 2012, 06:54 AM

The first problem is, I literally don't know what I'm doing inside a computer case. Especially, I haven't the first clue how to install a CPU ...! The very thought of trying terrifies me.

The second problem is, I killed this one just installing a new optical drive. Plug the power cable in, plug the SATA cable in, and done ... it should have been that easy. In practise .... not so much, it turns out.

Third problem is, without booting up the old desktop ... I literally don't KNOW what the exact model number of the old motherboard. I know the manufacturor, but that's as far as it gets.

Fourth up: I only _think_ that's what happened. All I know for certain is that I can neither boot the system up, nor find a listing of POST codes that includes the two different ones I'm getting when I try to tart it up.

Fifth and final problem: it's kinda too late to cancel the order for the new computer anyway.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Dec 27 2012, 07:31 AM

I haven't actually tried it, but I bet this is something using reddit would be good for. (fixing problem 3)

Post a pic of your motherboard to r/techsupport or r/whatisthisthing, and you probably could have the answer inside of a few hours.

As to the other problems...

Posted by: _Pax._ Dec 27 2012, 08:05 AM

The Reddit thing might help. Or I can just take it in to a repair shop, and see if they can do anything with it (I'd intended to pass the computer on to my mother, when I upgraded .... it'd've been unsuitable for games by then, but for Websurfing, email, watching movies ...? Drop in a fresh PSU and it would have been just dandy, for years to come.)

Kicker is, I have the full and EXACT specs up on some hardware site or other, including the motherboard (I'm the one that provided them with the specs for their database, even) ... but the link to that site is, you guess it, on the dead PC. Whoopsie.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Dec 27 2012, 09:10 AM

If you have a Computer Guy in your circle of friends, you can probably get him to put it together for a few hundred. Dropping in a CPU chip? Yeah, I won't even try that.



Yeah, it really should have been. I can't imagine installing an optical drive bricking the system; it's possible (though not likely) that you fucked up the mobo when you tinkered with it. I'd suspect a bad drive, though.



A Computer Guy (or a repair shop) can find that out by pulling the parts from your computer and Googleing them. That simple.



It's Bricked. If it's that badly Bricked, then either the PSU is bad, the mobo is bad, the CPU is bad, or some combination thereof is bad.



Well, nothing I can suggest about that one except cancel it, if there's still time. If not... C'est la vie.

Posted by: Stahlseele Dec 27 2012, 10:14 AM

1.) i am not much of a Fan of AMD, but that's your choice.
2.) forget about Crossfire or SLI, it's simply not worth it.
3.) a 1200 Watt PSU is overkill, if you don't do the Crossfire/SLI
4.) use a 256GB Samsung Series 830 or 840 SSD, nothing more.
5.) use a 3TB WD Green as Datastorage.

Posted by: _Pax._ Dec 27 2012, 12:24 PM

The OEM, iBuyPower, doesn't carry Samsung SSDs. The Intel I picked has very good read and write speeds, and the size somewhat future-proofs me.


2TB was the biggest WD of any sort the OEM offers.

Posted by: Ryu Dec 27 2012, 01:08 PM

My primary advice would be to get a much weaker system, and upgrade more often if necessary.

- I´d start at Tomshardware for CPU choice: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-cpu-review-overclock,3106-4.html. The cheap one should to the trick (and is cheaper than in the test.)

- The crossfire stuff is not worth it IMO. Power consumption, noise and heat are all serious considerations for such a setup.

- Your system should run fine with 8GB of memory, unless you use that thing professionally. AFAIK memory speed is not important for performance for the i-cores, so maybe reconsider your choice based on CPU. DO CHECK COMPATIBILITY WITH YOUR BOARD! I spend most of last Friday installing Win7 again and again and again, until we had the RAM isolated as troublemaker. Bought memory from the compatibility list, crashes are gone completely.

- I´ll second Stahlseele and suggest a 256MB or smaller SSD.

Posted by: StealthSigma Dec 27 2012, 02:13 PM

Is this factual or an assumption?

Here's some basic troubleshooting steps to make sure you're not committing an ID ten T error.

1. Check to make sure the power supply is plugged in.
* If this is your problem then I shall smack you and tell you to plug it in.
2. Check to make sure the power supply switch (if it has one) is on rather than off.
* If this is your problem then I shall still smack you, just not as hard as if #1 was the problem, and tell you to flip the switch.
3. Check for idle LED light on motherboard while power supply is on.
* If you have no idle light then either the PSU is not getting power to the motherboard or the motherboard has an issue (or your motherboard doesn't have one).

I'm generally leery of any PSU related issues and failures and yours sounds like a PSU failure. It's practically impossible to tell how a PSU failed and when it does it's the single component most likely to damage other components of a computer depending on how it fails. Of course, you can't tell if it damage other components until you get a replacement PSU.

Posted by: nezumi Dec 27 2012, 03:00 PM

I'm also kind of curious how installing an optical drive could have killed a computer. When you turn it on, does the fan start up? You didn't drop any screws on the motherboard, did you?

(If the BIOS isn't starting up, it's either the PSU or motherboard. That's pretty easy to diagnose. I'd be surprised if the processor is damaged.)

Building a computer is pretty easy to do. I taught my eight-year-old. The only real important part is de-static yourself and hold everything by the edges where there's no conducting bits.

But it sounds like that's not your cup of tea, and that's fine

Consider either selling your old components to a local geek who can use them, or donate them. There's a place in my area which rebuilds computers for schools.

What OS are you putting on?

Posted by: StealthSigma Dec 27 2012, 03:14 PM

Well, it could be that adding the optical drive drew more current than the PSU could handle. Also failing to ground himself while installing could cause damage....

Posted by: Bigity Dec 27 2012, 03:36 PM

Ah I remember the days of dropping that kind of coin on a computer.


Then I had kids. And for some reason they insist on being fed and having clothes and toys. Back in my day...!! etc

I'm actually switching to a laptop here in a few months when the old desktop is finally getting replaced. I guess that prevents me from upgrading as often, but the portability will be nice as I travel frequently enough now in my new job that there are times when I want to fire up a game or something from the hotel.

I will say that the 480 gig SSD is alot of money you probably won't get much use out of. By the time you'd need a system drive that big, the price will probably have come way down. I mean, I could load up all of my steam games, pics, and music onto that size SSD and still have lots left over, and putting music and pics on there is a waste anyway.

Posted by: Ryu Dec 27 2012, 04:18 PM

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/build-computer-how-to-overclock-gaming,3363.html is a suggestion that even uses the Crossfire stuff.

Posted by: StealthSigma Dec 27 2012, 04:23 PM

Okay. Let's not forget that he's also paying for the labor to build and test the device. That's easily $500 of the total cost and possibly pushing closer towards $750-$1000.

Posted by: Stahlseele Dec 27 2012, 04:33 PM

what? O.o
building such a Computer takes, if you install all the OS-Updates and certain Software, all of 4 Hours.
Even 100 Bucks for assembly is an hourly wage of 25 bucks. 500 Bucks for Assembly and some testing?
Absurd. o.O

Posted by: StealthSigma Dec 27 2012, 04:41 PM

In the US, $50/hr is pretty common for manufacturing. Most computing and technology labor costs are upwards of $120-$150/hr when billed out. Then you have the overhead costs of the business that are also being included on top of it.

Posted by: nezumi Dec 27 2012, 04:57 PM

That was my thought (that and the clue that he can't get to the BIOS screen). Unless the PC was custom-built for expandaibility and gaming, the PSU is almost certainly strained with the default loadout. One more thing ... But a new PSU is $100 and one of the easiest pieces of hardware to install (assuming you don't drop it on said mobo).

Someone showed me a cool doohicky where you install a small SSD literally on top of a standard drive, and it works as a super-fast page file. It was about $150. Looked pretty slick.

I'd also echo the comments that, currently, AMD is probably not the best choice. I love AMD, but Intel just came out with their new Ivy Bridge, and AMD is a little behind for the moment. You might get a price break, but otherwise I wouldn't see much reason to go for the lesser architecture (especially for a gaming machine).

Posted by: X-Kalibur Dec 27 2012, 05:21 PM

This is why I build all my computers. I spent around $1500 - $1700 on my last computer (last year) and I've had no major problems, although sometimes the SSDs give me a litle grief... they don't appear to be entirely bug free yet. I'm also running it on a Micro ITX board and in case that is barely larger than my Xbox360. Building a computer from scratch is daunting at first, but once you've done it a couple of times it become relatively easy.

Posted by: Ryu Dec 27 2012, 10:23 PM

Hereabouts the whole service is available for 100€ if bought from a supplier with competitive component prices. My group of friends did this DIY all the time when we were 18, and it is still a rewarding accomplishment even at our price level. Or said another way: If I could get around $750 for assembling a PC, going to University would have been a great waste of time.

Posted by: _Pax._ Dec 27 2012, 11:02 PM

"Much weaker" wouldn't be what I want.

You're also basically advising the guy who just bricked one computer with a simple install, to build the new one from the ground up.






When cycling the power button, I get two POST codes, alternating, for as long as I leave the device pored on. Two long beeps, followed by two long and one short. In the meantime, nothing appears on the screen, and the USB devices (including keyboard and mouse) receive no power. The fans, and their LEDs, work ... but constantly cycle up, then down, in time with the alternating POST codes.






It is entirely possible that the BRD installation was completely coincidental to a failure just waiting to happen. Or, static electricity. Or, I had to disconnect a few power cables in order to get into the case to where I could put the new drive in, and hook it up for power and data; I may have damaged somethign when taking those cables out, or putting them back in. Honestly, I don't know for certain what the ultimate cause is. I only know, that last week it was fine, and this week it's a beeping brick.

Lucky for me, RE: dropping screws, the case has tool-less drive bays.


Your eight-year-old had the advantage of a teacher who presumably knows what s/he is doing. That gives the kid a clear advantge over "I can read up on it over the internet, but that's about it" me.


Yep, that's the plan, now. If it'd still been in working condition I'd've given it to my mother, but ... *shrug* ... the BluRay and HDD come out - g/f wants the one, all my shadowrun stuff is on the other. Then I'll donate it, somewhere or other. Windows Serial# included (sticker right on the case has that).


The new one? Win7 Pro 64.






Exactly.






How about taking the extra time to carefully sleeve and route all the power and data cables as neatly and out-of-the-way as possible?

How about installing sound-reduction throughout the case?

And then there's the burn-in and testing time: they install the OS and all relevant drivers, then put the system through it's paces to make sure the install is stable. That's more than an hour's worth of work, for certain.






See, here's the thing. Yes, I just bought a $3500 computer But, I can't afford to completely throw away a thousand dollars, because I bought the wrong parts, or damage them making a mistake during installation. I'd rather pay half that thousand to an OEM, and be sure it works right the first time.





And in the end, I'm really not happy feeling like I have to defend how and where I chose to spend my money. >:(

Posted by: X-Kalibur Dec 28 2012, 02:01 AM

We're all just trying to inform you on how to save a buck or two. Take it or leave it. I used to buy pre-built computers until I realized how much less it would cost to do it myself. Because I'm not making enough money for it to not be worth my time. So now I do some research on parts on compatibility and build away, and when I started I read everything VERY closely. I'm far from a tech guru - I'm just a gamer who builds his own rigs.

You don't need to defend your actions and you've already done it anyhow.

Posted by: Ryu Dec 28 2012, 07:55 AM

I had to do some research to find a solution up your alley, and I´m used to much lower assembly prices. And then I enjoy researching new toys.

The system you ordered is very powerful, and should be able to feed that monster of a display well (another thing you get for the price margin btw). So in the spirit of the season I feel I could maybe allow you to proceed as planned.

Posted by: Ryu Dec 28 2012, 08:46 AM

http://www.pchell.com/hardware/beepcodes.shtml ; http://bios-info.de/4p92x846/phoesign.htm

Could be one POST message from the Award/Phoenix BIOS variant (2-2-1) pointing at the memory. We´d need maker and type of your motherboard to continue. Check if the RAM is firmly in place just to make sure.

Posted by: _Pax._ Dec 28 2012, 01:24 PM

The board manufacturor is Gigabyte. And what I'm getting, is not consistent with what Gigabyte says their POST codes are: http://forum.giga-byte.co.uk/index.php?PHPSESSID=gjuaugdoa8vl6udqsbjhth7lj5&/topic,2248.0.html

Posted by: StealthSigma Dec 28 2012, 01:56 PM

Do you know the BIOS version you're using?



Direct labor costs are going to be the time spent assembling, which takes about 1-2 hours but they're going to charge you 2-3. OS and driver installation is where they're ripping you because I would not be surprised to find out they're charging you labor for the time that the OS is installing even though they're doing nothing.

Then of course there's all the extra overhead that can't be directly tied to building it that's going to be bundled into the uppricing on components and labor costs. Say $2,000 in parts? They're going to charge you at least 10-15% above cost so you're looking at an extra $200 to $300 though I expect about a 20-25% markup for $2,400-$2,500 before labor. Then I expect about 6-7 hours of labor being charged at $100-$120 for another $600-$840 for anywhere from $3,000-$3,450 and that's being reasonable. I wouldn't be surprised to see the markups and my estimates being lower than what they actually run due to smaller demand....



It is quite simple. Plugging things into the wrong places is practically impossible since different sized connectors are often used.

For a gaming computer you're going to design around two components. Your intended GFX card(s) and the CPU. The GFX drive probably around 50%-75% of the the PSU wattage you need depending on if you do one or two cards and if you do one card now and plan to do crossfire or SLI later you either will need to upgrade your PSU then or get a higher capacity PSU now to be able to handle the upgrade. The CPU drives the motherboard selections available based on the socket types you can use. Then you just need to make sure the ram you get is of the same type as what the chosen motherboard supports and the chosen motherboard form factor will dictate what cases you can utilize with it.

The only part that is complicated about picking out parts is making sure the PSU has enough amps on each of its rails for what you're doing.

Posted by: _Pax._ Dec 28 2012, 03:16 PM

No.


That does no good, when the mistake occurred at the moment of purchase.


And I wouldn't have the first, faintest, tiniest clue how to go about doing that. So I decided to go with an OEM, knowing full well that a large markup would be applied. My money, my choice, and a decision already made. Please stop second-guessing that decision; not only is it not your place to do so, believeme when I say that I do far more than enough of that on my own.

Posted by: nezumi Dec 28 2012, 03:26 PM

No, that's fair. I build my own computers, because I spend maybe four hours a week running games on it and nothing else. But my wife buys her OEM and I only do very minor tweaks, because she just doesn't want to have to worry about it. I could change my own oil, but sometimes $30 is a good price to avoid a headache and save an afternoon.

The only reason I took a stab at diagnosing the computer is because if it's something as simple as changing out the PSU, you could be sitting on a lot of money. If the box is beeping but not booting, it's something more headache-worthy. You can certainly spend a few afternoons educating yourself It's a good chance to see how all the parts plug in. But whether the problem is a little one or a big one, it'll be a pain to find out.

You may want to consider buying your local geek friend lunch and have him come over to spend half an hour diagnosing those codes though. If it's something little like an unseated RAM chip, you could be sitting on some money. (If your northbridge is burnt out, like what happened to my box six months ago, the computer is basically just parts )

I do know how to build computers, but still at every step it was a pain. I took about a month because I kept not having one little component. And then I had to deal with installing and upgrading Windows like I wanted it ... Blech. But it all depends on how much you're doing. I made the mistake of trying to reuse 10-year-old parts where I could (you can't).

Posted by: StealthSigma Dec 28 2012, 04:48 PM

I'm pointing out that is exceedingly difficult to screw up the purchase of parts. The PSU has the most complicated requirements placed on it and it's not that bad. It is, IMO, less complicated than performing the format, OS installation, and installing the drivers. All those steps aren't terribly difficult.

Yes you made your decision. For this computer. That does not necessarily include future purchases. I'm simply giving information and trying to explain how the assembly is very simple and that you are paying a lot of extra for a machine that could be saved by cutting out the middleman for certain steps. Maybe you don't want to do the OS install and drivers. You can still save all the markup that you would pay on the component parts and even if you offer to pay a friend to do the OS and drivers for you, you will probably save a lot on labor costs since you're paying directly for labor rather than the "business overhead" that is lumped into the hours put into manufacturing an item.

Posted by: nezumi Dec 28 2012, 06:07 PM

But how much is it worth to know it will "just work" straight out of the box? Better, with a warranty When my wife's box breaks, it's HP's problem. When my box breaks, (which it does, more frequently than hers), it's my problem.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Dec 28 2012, 06:42 PM

Yeah, buy HPs customer service sucks. It's actually what lead me to start building my computers. I had an HP that broke down when I was 16 or so. I had to take it to them, got it back a couple of weeks later... where it failed again. (For the record it was a corrupted HDD). Thankfully I had a backup computer for playing EQ on at the time.

Posted by: taeksosin Dec 28 2012, 07:11 PM

Beep codes are a pain in the butt. If you were near the Las Vegas area, I'd offer to dig in and see what's up with it for a six pack of middling quality beer. As is, I'll echo what others have said. Grab a geek friend to diagnose it, or take it to a mom and pop computer shop. I'd avoid Geek Squad and other corporate entities, in general they're not competent enough to go into this level of troubleshooting (as an ex-Geek Squad Agent, I can assure you that most folks there are yanked from the sales floor and hired based on having a nice hair cut, not tech know how).

Posted by: StealthSigma Dec 28 2012, 07:25 PM

Well. HP or most of the other basic providers will load you with a bunch of crapware so that you're already suffering from diminished performance straight out of the box.

There's a very narrow set of problems that you will deal with.

Bad hardware. If your hardware is bad, it will be immediately noticeable for every part except possibly some RAM errors. Since you just acquired it, you'll be able to return it for a replacement from whomever you bought it from. If it's not immediately noticeable then the part is the disk drive, an optical drive, or the power supply and you'll probably be out of warranty unless you opt to extend it, which is never worth the cost unless you're in an environment where physical damage is prone to happen. The reason it's almost exclusively the listed parts is due to the fact that those parts have mechanical parts rather than functioning as a purely electrical part. Shorting anything is very difficult unless you set out to do it and most shorting issues are coming out of the factory or during shipping and storage at warehouse.

Bad drivers. Usually, this is easily fixed by installing the latest drivers for all your hardware.

Viruses/Malware. Nuff said and entirely unrelated to the hardware.

Posted by: Ryu Dec 28 2012, 08:21 PM

They can not tell you what their codes are without knowing the type of BIOS you have.

I would prefer to find out what the code means before describing you how to do something easy that might work but might also make "brick" a true statement.

Posted by: _Pax._ Dec 28 2012, 11:16 PM

Stealth ... I'm trying to be charitable and say "I appreciate the sentiment", but I already frellign asked you to stop second-guessing how I spent my money. IMO, the warranty, customer service, and "I pick stuff out, they make it work" ease of mind is worth the added expense.

Fine. In five sentences or less, with only one list not to exceed twenty lines .... explain to me how to knwowich socket is needed by which iteration of which CPU brand.


... in five to ten years, whereupon I shan't remember but a tenth part of this thread.



Not my experience with this HP ProBook 4530S. Nor my experience with the prior PC - which was a "clearance" item sold through NewEgg, but ultimately from the same OEM. Nor my g/f's experience with a custom-configured desktop, again from the same OEM. Oh sure, there were a few things to remove - McAfee for example. BUT THOSE WEREN"T "crapware" so much as "we know you'll want an antivirus and firewall, so please consider these (from people who paid us to offe their stuff to you)".

So, sure, there's a bit of cleanup. But, at least I know it will work at all, straight out of the box and onto my desk.



... and "Tab A does not in fact fit into Slot B-type-blah-blah-blah";

... and "fuck, these are supposed to go together but I can't get them to click into place, and how hard should I push/twist/whatever, am I going to break one or both parts, fuck fuck fuck, they both cost over a hundred dollars, fuck fuck fuck";

... and "wait, how much power do these three pull? Can I put them all on one rail of the PSU or should I split them up? Wait, how do I tell one 'rail' from another, there's no 'rails' here just plugs and cables and oh god".

See, I am dead certain that yes, you ARE right, once you learn what you're doing, it's all so very terribly easy. But before that, it isn't. And no, I actually don't know any PC "hardware guys". My housemate is the closest thing ... and he's a software guy, a programmer, not a hardware guy.

Posted by: Stahlseele Dec 29 2012, 12:07 AM

That there actually are such people in the gaggle of Nerds on the Innernets is kinda disturbing to me @.@

Posted by: _Pax._ Dec 29 2012, 12:17 AM

... what "such people" do you mean, Stahlseele ...?

Posted by: Stahlseele Dec 29 2012, 12:28 AM

Nerds.
On the Internet.
THAT HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT HOW COMPUTERS WORK! x.x

Posted by: Lionhearted Dec 29 2012, 12:40 AM

He's not the only one... Half of the components are pure eldritch speech to my ears, especially graphics cards! Have some bloody naming standards!
That said, I know where to put them and how to put them.

Pax... Would you buy a new car if the gearbox broke?

Posted by: Stahlseele Dec 29 2012, 12:45 AM

my mind just boggles at this paradox of NERDS ON THE INTERNET NOT KNOWING ABOUT THEIR COMPUTERS @.@

Posted by: _Pax._ Dec 29 2012, 12:46 AM

Not every "nerd" is a computer "nerd".

I'm a gaming geek - RPGs, video games, etc. I'm also a SF geek - Weber's Hnorverse is #1 with me.

I am not a computer geek, aside fromt eh fact that so many of my other geek-doms rely on the computer as a tool.






No. But I would, if the drive shaft fell out in traffic. (Which actually happened to my mother once. Universal joint had rotted through.)

Posted by: _Pax._ Dec 29 2012, 12:49 AM

Well, I'm so very fucking sorry I don't meet your standards of intelligence, or whatever. >_<

And people wondered why I feel like I've been put on the defensive ...?!

Posted by: Lionhearted Dec 29 2012, 12:59 AM

I find it quite simple. You equip your tinfoil bracelet to make sure you're not zappy, then put the thingie-mayig in the socket where it fits (usually there's only one) and connect the cables to the whathaveyonow.
Then you jump through hoops for a while with drivers and stuff, and voila! computer!
You need to know stuff like that to clean the computer anyway, learned that the hard way when my old processor had melded with the cooling unit (6 years with no new paste).
I just have someone that knows such things to tell me what thingie-mayigs are worthwhile, but Im learning, slowly.
Graphics cards are still a bloody mystery although...

Posted by: Redjack Dec 29 2012, 01:18 AM

Holy hell. Did I just drop into a 4chan or something?

Dang, in addition to a good number of nerds not really knowing anything about computers over half the people who claim to know, know less than half as much as they think they do and are right about even less than half than that.

Give him a break.

Posted by: nezumi Dec 29 2012, 02:54 AM

I'm a software guy, not hardware. Plus, software is easy to undo when you're setting up the computer ("restore to factory defaults").

But honestly, it wasn't too bad at all. I think there were like three programs which weren't necessary, and most of them were programs that were actually made to help non-techies manage their computers better. It's not like the days of Gateway with Vista, where I'd have to spend half an hour just uninstalling AOL trialware.



That's not true (as you yourself go on to list three more things, and I don't think that list is comprehensive). Worse, DIAGNOSING which part can be a total PITA.

Drivers too are tougher than you make it sound. I just installed my updated video drivers and it effectively shut down windows. That one was easy because I ONLY updated that one, so I could troubleshoot and roll back quickly. When there's six drivers between the plug and my screen, that's a LOT of troubleshooting.

Not saying it's a truly DIFFICULT task. And when it goes well, it's a beautiful thing. But when it goes balls up, it can tie you up for weeks.

Posted by: CanRay Dec 29 2012, 03:31 AM

There's Bronies here. Close enough.

Posted by: _Pax._ Dec 29 2012, 04:09 AM

I keep wondering that myself.

Seriously, please, just close the thread. Or better, delete it. Honestly if I could un-post it, at this point I would.

One thing's for sure: this is the last time I share anything not directly related to gaming, on this forum. >:(

Posted by: All4BigGuns Dec 29 2012, 04:14 AM

I've never gone to that site, but from everything I've heard, I'm glad of this fact.

Posted by: Bigity Dec 29 2012, 04:19 AM

I think he was just goofing around about nerds and computers, not trying to say you are stupid or whatnot.

The stereotypical nerd could build a computer out of some tinfoil and coconuts, and then teleport the gang off of Gilligan's Island with the leftovers and such.

Posted by: CanRay Dec 29 2012, 04:33 AM

*Looks up from eating coconut* Do we have enough components yet?

Posted by: X-Kalibur Dec 29 2012, 06:58 AM

As an aside for you, Pax; you can use this one on your roommate.

How many programmers does it take to change a lightbulb? None - it's a hardware issue.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jan 2 2013, 03:38 PM

Look at the technical specifications of the motherboard or CPU. You will see a line "Socket Type" or some variation of that. If the both are the same then the parts are compatible.

If you look under the technical specifications of the motherboard and the case you have, you will see some line that says something about motherboard form factor. As long as those match (some cases support multiple form factors of motherboard) then you're good on that.

If you look under the technical specifications of the motherboard and the RAM, you will see the type of RAM supported by the motherboard. If those match, then you are good.

If you look under the technical specifications of the GPU, you will see the PCI or other slot requirement for it. Make sure the MOBO tech specs have that slot available.

If you look under the technical specifications of the GPU, you should see a system requirement that indicates the minimum watt power supply you need. Make sure you go about 1.5x this value to support your other system components. I've never built a dual-GPU machine, but I would estimate about 2-2.2x that value would be what you need for a dual GPU system.



I'm not including McAfee or other "free" offerings. I'm talking about HP tools and other software like that. Most of that software is active monitoring software which is very poorly written thanks to the fact that hardware has become so powerful that crappy programming is the norm. They are crapware and cause problems once you start putting any sort of real load on the machine. There's two reasons IT personnel strive towards standard images. The first is that it saves a lot of time pushing out a machine. The second is that we get rid of pointless resource hog software like the vendor offerings.



Yeah, it's a bit of cleanup, and it will work but that doesn't make the software the vendors toss on good for the machine. Everything with computers is about fighting entropy and that software is so horribly written that it make entropy worse.




RAM is designed and built in such a way that it can only be socketed in the motherboard in one way. It physically cannot be put in the wrong way. Motherboards are designed so that when you socket ram in, they very near or do latch the RAM into place once it is fully inserted.

The CPU is also the exact same way. You simple align a little arrow on the chip with the motherboard and drop it in (gently). If it's the wrong orientation it will not "sink" in and it is quite visible. If you're not overclocking, then the thermal paste and default heat sink that comes with a CPU is more than sufficient and that is also very easy to install. It requires a little bit of pressure to make sure it's secured to the motherboard, but not too much.

Installing the power supply is easy too. There's basically 3 major types of power connectors from the power supply. They are all designed so they can only fit the proper direction. There's the 16-pin (2x8) motherboard power cable. There is only one of these and it, obviously, plugs into the motherboard. There's the 4-pin molex (1x4) power connector which is what is typically used to power optical drives, disk drives, and fans. That's the 5V rail. Then there's the 4/6/8-pin connectors (2x2, 2x3, or 2x4 layout) which is what is typically used for the PCI cards. That's the 12V rail. Honestly, as long as you have sufficient 12V rails for the GFX card, everything else should be fine.

Pax, don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from. I enjoy learning new things and I enjoy passing along knowledge to people just as much and I find that doing is often times a better teacher than words ever can be. I will say this, I've done some work with teaching the basics of computers to young children through a program sponsored by a local university. Part of the course's cost was for very cheap components so they could build their own cheap computer. The boys had a lot easier time with it than the girls. The boys seemed to respond better to force feedback from the components while the girls just tried to jam things in. Even though I told them they shouldn't need to force anything in. One of the lessons I have them do, which I actually recommend you try, is to go to Newegg and spec out a new computer. I tell give them the minimum specs to build to and a budget and tell them to go "make" it. Granted, that's only half the equation of building a machine but it's the more difficult part (which isn't too difficult).

So here's the assignment. Complete if you want, it's not difficult.

Spec me a machine that can run Battlefield 3 at the recommended specs that has a total component cost that does not exceed $2,250. Use Newegg to find your parts. Over speccing is optional but recommended.

BF3 Recommended Specs
Operation System: Windows 7 64-bit
Processor: Quad-core 2.7GHz
Memory: 4GB
Graphics Card: 1GB, GeForce 560 or better, Radeon 6950 or better
Sound Card: DirectX compatible sound card
Hard Drive Capacity: Must be able to support OS plus 20GB for the game installation.

You will need to acquire the following components (some components may be able to be acquired bundled together, like motherboard and sound card).
Computer Case, Motherboard, RAM, CPU, GFX Card, Sound Card, Power Supply, Optical Drive, Hard Drive, Operating System. Depending on the case, you may need to also acknowledge that you need more 80mm or 120mm fans for cooling. I recommend starting the with the CPU/GFX card and building out from those two components.

If you decide the complete the assignment, just link each part in a reply post. Then us hardware guys on the forum can look at it and tell you what we think. Just because you don't know any hardware guys in real life doesn't mean you don't have the communication channels to hardware guys open. Here's a webpage that has a picture based instructions for building a PC. http://www.ifitjams.com/build.htm

--



Wait, what? Both GeForce and Radeon cards do have naming conventions within the brand name. You take the value of the model and the first digit indicates the generation of hardware. The numbers following it indicate the potency of the cards. EG. GTX600, GTX670, GTX690 for nVidia.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 2 2013, 04:05 PM

... my head starts swimming with all the numbers and letters.

Look, not everyone is good with that stuff. In fact, where computers are concerned I have been feeling my age the last few years - I'm forty-one, fast closing on forty-two. You know the old stereotype about how 30- and 40-something parents have their teenagers or tweeagers set the VCR clock? Yeah, it's a stereotype for a reason. As the mind ages, it finds learning new concepts just that little bit harder.

Computer specifications generally give me headaches. I don't understand them. I know there's meaning and information in there But I can't quite seem to wrap my head around it all - and every year (or even, just a few months), it all changes again.


The OEM I chose doesn't put any of that stuff on their machines, that I've seen - with two examples so far. They even offer machines with nothing at all installed - just a blank hard-drive and a packet of disks carrying the drivers for things like the video card.



Aha, see, here I actually know more than you've written. Some main power cables are 24-pin. Or 20+4. This site makes my head start swimming, but: http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/partsMotherboard-c.html


... and SATA power connectors. My old desktop used those both for the HDD and the new Blu-Ray. See, there's another layer of detail you've glossed over.


No, Sir, I do not believe you do.

You handwave all these things as being "easy" - but from my side of it? It's not easy. It's intimidating, it's anxiety and stress inducing, and it might as well all be black magic and orcish runes to me. And all your handwavery just comes across as trivialising my sense of being lost, and conviction that I'll "do something wrong".


... see what I mean? You just did it again!

*sigh*


That's not exactly true. And those naming conventions change every few years, too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon#Nomenclature

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 2 2013, 04:30 PM

I haven't been keeping up with graphic card naming since Geforce 3!
I know exactly what a Voodoo 3000 was capable of and it was better then the Voodoo 2000!
But a Radeon HD5680 or GTX650, I have no clue what that means except that both are 1gig memory cards! (probably isn't since I made those numbers up)

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 2 2013, 04:37 PM

Radeons are up to the 7000 series. My new rig will have two 7970's in it. And they're 3GB cards.

Technology races ever forward, ever faster.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 2 2013, 05:23 PM

Yet the software that would employ it lags behind because of an 8 year old console market.
Literally no point in spending $1200 on a graphics card.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 2 2013, 05:51 PM

actually, putting in more than one GPU can lead to a phenomenon called mico-stuttering or something like that, where you might have little to no stuttering at all using only one potent GPU.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jan 2 2013, 06:46 PM

Age isn't the enemy here nor is it an inability to learn. People get used to doing things a certain way and that's how they like it. This is called conservatism. Sometimes its good and sometimes its bad. The problems I've had with teaching other people how to use new things is finding the way to teach them that most closely matches how they learn. For people like me, the way to teach me is to dump me in a sandbox, give me all the tools I need (with possibly a basic instruction on how to use the tool) and a goal to reach. Some people need to be shown over and over to learn (because they learn best by rote).



Your OEM is like buying a GMC Corvette instead of a GMC Pontiac Grand Am. You pay more to get more and less more and the less more is more when it comes to computer software from the OEM.



I should have made a disclaimer that I was answering based on my memory and my perception on what I think the pin count is. The pin count is of trivial important since the shape and size of connector is quite standardized and you can't put the wrong power connector in the wrong point. It might be a 20 pin connector for the mobo power cable now that I think about it. It might even be a 24-pin.




Forgot about those. They're also quite a bit different than any of the other cables so it's not as if you need to worry about plugging in the wrong ones to the wrong point.




I handwave it all as easy because it is trivial. Your problem, which I'm pretty sure I've keyed in to based on your first paragraph in your post, is that you don't have the appropriate noise filter in place. You can not differentiate between what information is necessary and what isn't and you're trying to look at the whole picture rather than piecemeal it. Which is entirely understandable since you don't know what you need to know. There's a LOT of information available because people want that, especially overclockers and hyperoptimizers. A lot of that information is, frankly, worthless to someone just building a PC from scratch. What you need to know is just how the various part interact with each other and that is what I've been laying out in previous posts (CPU socket type needs to match on CPU/mobo and others). Think of it like a puzzle and solve it one part at a time. You already know a good portion of the information you would be interested in. You know what you want for your GPU, CPU, memory, HDD capacity, optical drive. That leaves just the mobo, case, and PSU as items that you would need to figure out. Figuring out the mobo and case is easy because the mobo is dependent on the CPU and the case is dependent on the mobo (or vice versa if you will) if you look at the information I provided in my previous post on what to look at.

It sounds like you have at least a basic grasp of assembling some pieces of a computer, I don't think you did anything physically wrong when attempting to install the Blu-ray drive and all the components except the CPU installation are pretty much the same way. Just differently shaped connectors.

Honestly, Pax, you have the foundational knowledge to do it and that is the most difficult part to grasp. Once the foundation is there building upon it is easy once the right avenue is found. You've just never had anyone show and explain it in a manner that you would understand. This is a fairly good guide and explains a lot about the building itself. http://www.mechbgon.com/build/index.html



The specifics of the nomenclature they use may change periodically but the pattern does not. The 1st digit has always been a chipset generation indicator while the 2nd digit in the Radeon series is always an indicator of quality and the higher the value the higher the performance/cost. Whether that is high end, performance, bargain, integrated is of minimal value. If you're building a PC for gaming then the that digit has always been 7+. Most of the shakeup in nomenclature has been at the 5 and lower values for referencing bargain and integrated chips which is the exact opposite end of the spectrum for a home built gaming machine... but that's part of the information filter....

--



That makes me flinch. Please, please, please tell me you're running modern games on ultra-high settings with tri-monitor setups and 2560x1600 resolution on each monitor because you will be waiting more than 5 years for a game that pushes those settings. Your best bet to push it will be some real time strategy where it has a huge number of highly detailed actors like the Total War series or Supreme Commander where they have ridiculously high supply caps (2000 with each building/unit taking one supply) and not a game like Starcraft where they have small supply caps with variable supply count units.... or possibly Crysis 4 or whatever it will be called.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Jan 2 2013, 07:07 PM

Maybe he got that graphical set up specifically so that it would be years for something to come along that "pushes" it's limits. Seems to me like it would be better to do that than to get less powerful and have to upgrade sooner--and thus end up spending more.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 2 2013, 07:09 PM

Yet to run into a game my Radeon HD 4870 couldn't run on high or better, then again I don't play grand strategy. (1920x1080 admittedly and quite often the fancy graphics options no one can pronounce is out of the question, usually max out those isotropic whatever the hell and AA)

Posted by: StealthSigma Jan 2 2013, 08:30 PM

It's cheaper thanks to SLI and crossfire.

Let's say a top end of the current generation cost $750. You get two of those and you just spend $1,500 when $750 would suffice. By the time a game comes out that does push the need for a crossfire of that card the new generation of GFX will probably have come out. That $750 card is going to drop down to about $350. You pick up the 2nd card at $350 crossfire it ($1,100 total $400 savings) and you keep on trucking for another couple years until the NEXT generation comes out. Then you get a $750 card of that generation (so you entirely skipped a generation). Graphics cards are pretty much the most common component to be migrated from one platform to the next precisely because SLI and crossfire have made it much more difficult to make them obsolete and in need of an upgrade.

I'd estimate 4-5 years at the current game progression and by that time the new generation of cards will be out and the current generation will be much cheaper than current prices. This has been the usual pattern. Things may change if there's a new revolution in PC gaming or the specs on the next generation for Playstation and XBox are enough to push the need. Generally, dual top end cards of the current generation is reserved for multi-display output at high resolutions and not for single display output at high resolutions. A GTX570, for example, is more than sufficient to run most, if not all, current games at ultra settings on 1920x1080 resolution for a single display as well as many upcoming games. SLI two cards will run quite a bit into the future. A single GTX670 will run all current games and most of the upcoming games for a single display.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Jan 2 2013, 08:33 PM

And just imagine how long doing that with the top-end ones would take before you have to replace. It's expensive, yeah, but with how long it'll last, probably worth it.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 2 2013, 08:38 PM

Sigma seems like he's approaching the point where he's going to drive to OP's house and hold a gun to his head until OP builds a damn computer from scratch

Seriously though, I'm not sure I live in Sigma's world.

The northboard on my computer died. I figured this would be a great time to upgrade. Tossed the motherboard and processor and RAM. Since this is my 'junk' computer, I'd keep everything else. (Previous machine was a Sony Vaio. Very nice when it was new.)

New motherboard doesn't quite fit in the case. The case is ATX, but set up weird to support their special cooling system. So new case.

CD-ROM and DVD-ROM, as well as one of my hard disks are IDE. Didn't even think to check. The last computer I bought was both IDE and SATA. I didn't realize sata-only was a 'thing'. Bought a new SATA drive. Had to 'steal' the other computer to transfer all of the data over. Stole my wife's extra DVD drive.

Power supply is under-powered. I buy a new one. Just guesstimated at 400W, since it was only $10 more than the 300W one. Good thing, because my kid's UPS died that same week, so I scavenged the old one. Wiring that in was surprisingly weird, because there was no obvious 'up'. Had to do it twice.

Put the mobo in and dropped the last screw somewhere. Had to remove the mobo to find it. Got the processor in with no problem (the new intel series is very nicely keyed), but the whole way I was imagining accidentally touching one of those little gold notches and killing it.

Old heat sink wouldn't fit in the case. Had to toss that. And the new thermal paste I bought was useless because some came with the board.

(By the by, when contacting Sony technical support to ask what the heat transfer rate of their heat sink, because you've replaced every other component, but you're not sure if this is better than the one Intel sent you, they're just as helpful as you'd expect. That was the one 'dumb on me' I was expecting.)

Pushing new RAM in ... I always feel like it's about to break. Trying to push it in without breathing too hard or touching any capacitors or accidentally drooling on anything. I'd pay someone $5 to install my RAM for me.

Booted that up expecting the OS to work reasonably well (I've hot-swapped OSes before and they complain a LOT but they boot). Windows XP dies horribly. Linux boots fine, but ... I'd like Windows too.

Four days fighting Windows to get the (legal) version I want. That's another $70. Then dealing with drive partitions and all that. FINALLY got that sorted after three reformats.

Video card can't keep up and chokes painfully. Not sure why. I could play Fallout on the old machine, but not on the new one with the same card. Have to replace that.

Oh, no PS2 slots on the new mobo either. Have to get a little convertor thing.

There are two steps that worked as planned and without any fuss;
My additional sound card (I bought for Linux, because the Vaio card wasn't supported) worked fine.
Linux never complained.

Last box I built was ten times easier, but the motherboard was dead on arrival, so I had to spend a few hours diagnosing that (after I"d already built the whole box). I was without a box for over a month. Had I had the delays like above, I'd also be out a motherboard, because it would have been past its no questions asked warranty.

Everything else was just a string of headaches. And every step I need to buy something, it means another one to four hours of research on all of the terms, and another hour of searching newegg for the 'perfect' thing.

Not saying it's not doable, even for people who don't know anything about computers. But sometimes it's really worth paying someone else to do it for you.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 2 2013, 08:50 PM

Nezumi, that's legendary. I would totally watch a movie of your rigging exploits

Posted by: StealthSigma Jan 2 2013, 09:11 PM

It's the same amount of time. Whether you get 1 or 2 of the current gen top-end, the end of life for a crossfire/SLI of that card generation is the same. All that changes between getting 1 or 2 is the point when you get the 2nd card to run the crossfire and that card will always be cheaper when acquired later. I'm not sure what kind of crazy shenanigans would need to go on that would make getting two top-end cards now would be cheaper than getting the 2nd at a later time when it's needed.

There are edge cases (multi-displays, unusual resolutions) that warrant crossfire of the current gen top-end, but those are the exceptions and not the norm.

--



I highly doubt that. I'm approaching the point where I'm very seriously interested in helping Pax understand all the inner workings of the computer though. I consider it a problem and if there's one thing I absolutely love, it is puzzles and all problems are nothing but a puzzle.



It sounds like you try to salvage as much as you can from your old machine rather than build a new. The only thing I ever salvage is the GFX card in some cases and those are usually because I needed an upgraded GFX card for my old machine at some point. RAM is doable, but I hate having going back and finding the frequency of my RAM so I can get upgrades that match the frequency (since all your RAM runs at the lowest frequency making hi-freq RAM an unnecessary expense). I always get new parts for any mechanic bit, so HDD and optical drives get an upgrade. I always upgrade the PSU to avoid entropy on it. I'd probably upgrade a SSD for longevity concerns. Basically, I'm gutting pretty much everything but the mobo and CPU at that point and I, frankly, hate applying thermal paste so I would just get a new CPU to avoid that fiasco waiting to happen.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 2 2013, 09:41 PM

Hey, hey Sigma I has broken computer too... Which is why I post from a 3ds.
Basically it had a major screen corrupt and then refused to restart. It starts powering up but then enters a restart cycle each lasting like 10-20 seconds. No signal on the screen what so ever.
Fans are clean CPU, PSU and GPU.
CPU was pasted recently and I've had no heating issues or dust build up.
Right so after opening it, it looks like there's no power connecting to the graphics card (as mentioned a Radeon HD 4870) with an extra external fan. Um, as in it's not lighting up as it should.
Not quite sure what else you'd need to know to make a guesstimate... Which I know is hard to do off-site.

After doing a perception check.
CPU AMD phenom II quadcore
PSU Corsair HX650W
RAM x3 2gig whatever the fuck
Mobo Gigabyte something rather I know it's a x3 in there somewhere.
OS. Win7 64bit pro.

Worth noting is that I had issues with the graphics drivers making me having to dial back(?) the drivers

Posted by: StealthSigma Jan 2 2013, 11:20 PM

My gut feeling based on what you're saying doesn't match the scenario very well. Did this problem start just after you repasted the CPU? Did you remember to reconnect the power for the heat sink fan? I had this issue when I built my PC. It would boot and restart over and over because the fan wasn't connected causing the CPU to heat up so fast that it hit its shutdown temp.

Barring that, you would need to remove the GFX card as an element. You should be able to get bios to POST without the GFX card and not go into the perpetual reboot cycle. It would be nice if your mobo had an integrated graphics chip, but I doubt it has one. If you have an older GFX card you can try booting with that installed.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 3 2013, 12:52 AM

On the one hand: that's absolutely not true. While most games CAN be run on settings that low, the best ones can also be cranked so high, only upper-tier desktops can hope to touch them.

On the other hand: we're due for a new console generation. Which means there'll be a jump at the low end, that will probably spark a push at that upper end too.






Easily rectified, should a game suffer from that flaw, by switching off one of the GPUs.





DING DING DING DING!

And I do believe I've said as much, in this very thread: I have tried to future proof this build, as much s possible.




EXACTLY the sort of nightmare I was, and remain, afraid of.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 3 2013, 12:53 AM

You know that head-swimming sensation I mentioned before? Yeah, that phrasing right there sdoing it to me about as well as a sea of to-me incomprehensible computer-part specifications.


Hey, Sigma? Fuck you. >_<


At which point, it is not trivial, it is not easy.

FFS, man. Just because something is easy FOR YOU, doesn't mean it's easy for everyone.


And what you've entirely failed to see, is that you have two other problems you must solve FIRST.

One, is the fact that I don't want your fucking help. I never asked for it, and I have in fact quite clearly asked NOT to have it. I've even asked for the whole goddamned thread to be closed because "help" kept being pushed at me. >_<

Two, is the fact that you don't seem to be very good at GIVING that help, without antagonising the intended recipient of it.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 3 2013, 12:56 AM

As far as i know, ALL Systems with multi gpu suffer from the mico stuttering in pretty much all games.
AMD/ATI more so than nVidia too . . and if i have to switch one of the cards off to play without stuttering, then in my eyes having more than one, especially AMD/ATI is a waste of money . .
Even though AMD/ATI have way more bang for the buck . .

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jan 3 2013, 06:50 PM

I previously used crossfired ATIs and SLI'd nVidias and only ever had the micro stuttering problem on maybe one or two games. It requires some fiddling around with drivers and settings sometimes. Although the easiest answer, as mentioned, is to simply force it down to 1 card.

I feel like the dual GFX era is already past, however. You just generally get better bang for your buck with a single, higher end card than 2 lower end ones gated together.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 3 2013, 06:58 PM

Well, NVidia offers the gloriously-expensive GTX 690 ... two GPUs, on a single card.

So dual-GPU builds may not be quite so "thing of the past", after all.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 3 2013, 07:16 PM

The only thing where i really can see a use of multi GPU setups is for massive parallelisation gpu computing like bit coin mining for example . .
And the reason for the dual gpu cards is just to cram more power into a single pci-e slot. Just good that it does not matter as much as you'd expect to lower bandwidth on PCI-E in terms of Performance.
Seriously, going from x16 to x8 is a whopping 5% loss of performance if i remember correctly, if that . .
But for Gaming, more than one GPU does not scale perfectly. So two GPUs does not equal twice the power. only about 160-180% realistically. And adds the problem of micro-stuttering, so in my eyes not worth it because of the more in cost and electricity bill and heat that needs to be taken care of and thus more cooling needed and because of that a louder computer . .

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 3 2013, 07:20 PM

I cringe at the thought of spending that kind of money on components when I know that 6 month or a year down the line the price will have dropped drastically. Have the best of last year at 1/4 the price is more to my liking. Especially as it takes time for games to come around and fully utilize the new technology (with a few exceptions made to bring even the beefiest monster to it's knees)

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 3 2013, 07:37 PM

Generally, that's what I'd probably prefer, too. But just this once, I wanted to throw caution to the wind, and get the best, not-IMO-ludicrously-overbuilt computer my (this time) sizeable budget would allow.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 3 2013, 07:41 PM

Save the money and treat yourself to a nice dinner or something?

Posted by: StealthSigma Jan 3 2013, 07:43 PM

I agree, that's why I generally suggest you reserve dual GFX for doubles of the previous generation of cards. We're not seeing things like 100% improvement in power between generations of the same version card, the gains are maybe around 20-30% with perhaps a 50% here or there. At the moment, I just don't see the level of game rendering coming out for PC gaming that would justify the dual setups. A single GTX570 can run BF3 (just over a year old) on it's top end graphics settings @ 1920x1080 resolution without issue and that is a game that was designed for the PC first rather than consoles (console versions of BFBC2 and I think BF3 had their max player count in matches lowered in order to preserve graphics quality) and the MP version of BF3 was tested without issue for significantly more than 64 players. They just found through testing that having more than that did not really add anything and if MAG serves a case study on >64 players in a MP FPS, then that's likely a pretty safe assumption.

So what we have is an environment where we can pump out higher quality 64 person MP FPS without making significant headway into the GFX power we have available. There is one way forward that I think will begin to leverage that power, but it really requires developers to leverage particle level physics, like the frostbite engine does, to simulate truly malleable environment.

Now. I do admit that the linked card power is definitely useful when you get into tri-monitor setups and higher resolutions than 1920x1080 as well as 3D gaming, but I also believe those are edge cases and not necessarily what is being marketed towards for PC gaming with any huge amount of pressure.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 3 2013, 07:48 PM

A single of these: Gigabyte Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition would have done it.
It's the fastest single GPU card from ATI and reasonably cheap to boot.
Everything with more than one GPU is for me completely ludicrously overbuilt.
If you want to do stuff that's gonna eat VRAM, there are cards with 6Gigs of RAM, but usually not worth it . .

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 3 2013, 08:20 PM

No. Ludicrously overbuilt would be (from teh same OEM I've bought from) the Erebus "signature" series computer - all custom liquid cooling, video cards included. And three GTX 690's in triple-SLI. Well ... like this:

Case: iBUYPOWER Erebus GT Full Tower Custom Liquid Cooling Gaming Case - Black
Internal Expansion: [6-Port] NZXT Internal USB Expansion System + Bluetooth & Wireless N Modules
Processor: Intel® Core™ i7 3970X Processor Extreme Edition (6x 3.50GHz/15MB L3) - Intel Core i7 3970X w/
Overclock: PowerDrive Level 3 - Up to 30% Overclocking
Processor Cooling:
... Custom Liquid Cooling w/ Triple + Single + Dual Radiators (There's a triple radiator at the top, a double on the bottom, and a single on the front of the case.
... High-Performance Coolant powered by Koolance - UV Red
... Tubing Wraps (Anti-Kink Coil) powered by Koolance - Red
System Memory: 32 GB [4 GB X8] DDR3-2133 Memory Module - Corsair Vengeance
Video Card: [Liquid Cooled] NVIDIA GeForce GTX 690 - 4GB - SLI Mode (Dual Cards) (Note, each of these is the dual-GPU model!)
Motherboard: ASRock X79 Extreme11 -- 7x PCI-E x16, 10x SATA 6Gb/s, and 2x Gb LAN
SSD Cache: 60 GB Intel 520 Series
Power Supply: (1200W) Thermaltake Toughpower Grand-1200M
Primary Drive: 480 GB Intel 520 SSD
Data Drive: 2 TB WD Black HARD DRIVE -- 64M Cache, 7200rpm, 6.0Gb/s
Optical Drive: [12X Blu-Ray] LG BLU-RAY Re-Writer, DVD±R/±RW Burner Combo Drive - Red
Other: 12-In-1 Internal Flash Media Card Reader/Writer - Red
Other: AeroCool V12XT Touch Screen Fan, Temperature Control & HDD Working Display
Sound Card: ASUS Xonar Essence STX
Network Card: Intel Pro 10/100/1000 Network Card
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate + Office Starter 2010 (Includes basic versions of Word and Excel) 64-bit
Keyboard
iBUYPOWER Standard Gaming Keyboard
Mouse
iBUYPOWER Standard Gaming Mouse - Blood Red
1st Monitor: 27" LCD 1920x1080 -- ASUS VG278H 3D-Ready 120Hz w/ 3W x2 Stereo Speakers
2nd Monitor: 27" LCD 1920x1080 -- ASUS VG278H 3D-Ready 120Hz w/ 3W x2 Stereo Speakers
Speaker System: Logitech Z506 5.1 Surround 3D Sound Speakers + Subwoofer Black
Power ProtectioN: Mighty Voltage Regulator - Opti-UPS SS1200-AVR
Advanced Build Options
... Tuniq TX-2 High Performance Thermal Compound
... Professional wiring for all cables inside the system tower

... $8,748, plus shipping and handling. O_o

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 3 2013, 08:31 PM

Yeah, get rid of at least the Video-Cards for a strong single GPU, change the CPU for a Quad-Core Model, that's still plenty, exchange the primary drive for one half the size, replace the PSU with one that's a third to a half as strong and get rid of the periphery and that's a system i'd buy.
And it'd cost about half, probably not even a third of that price.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 3 2013, 08:36 PM

Bet you could home build something similar/better for 2/3rds of the price.
Cutting out the mouse, keyboard, sound system and soundcard and you're already ahead.
Who doesn't already have the first three of those and you don't need a soundcard unless you're doing sound design, the sound quality of the integrated mobo soundcard is more then sufficient.

Edit: Woo! point proven before even posted

Posted by: All4BigGuns Jan 3 2013, 08:40 PM

That's just ridiculous... SkyNet waiting to happen, I say.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 3 2013, 08:45 PM

NZXT Phantom 410 full tower, in white;
Intel Core i7 quad-core CPU, with overclock protection plan
20% overclock
the same 6-port internal USB expansion card as above
Corsair Hydro series H60 liquid cooling for the CPU
a single NVidia GTX 680 (2GB) video card
16GB of DDR3-2133 memory, Corsair Vengeance
Gigabyte GA-X70-UP4 motherboard (saves $374, right there!)
750W Corsair 80+ rated PSU (card & overclock require a minimum of 650W)
180GB Intel 520 SSD primary drive
2TB WD Black HDD
LG Blu-ray rewrite drive
12-in-1 media card drive
Aerocool VX12 fan control panel
no discrete sound card
Win7 Pro 64
just one of the 27" 3D monitors
... otherwise the same as above.

$3,411, plus S&H.

See, there's "lightly overbuilt", and there's "how many souls did you have to offer up to Satan to get this made" overbuilt.

The one I actually ordered is more the former, than the latter, IMO.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 3 2013, 08:46 PM

IT is. But then again ... two 3D monitors, each with it's own set glasses. Think of the split-screen FPS gaming you could do on that beast ...

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jan 3 2013, 08:51 PM

The really overpriced part is the liquid cooling. I tried it out one time. It was more of a hassle to set up without seeing any real improvement plus it was extra noise. My current computer doesn't make almost any noise and runs cool with just heatsinks and a fan (admittedly, going to SSDs cut a lot of noise).

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 3 2013, 08:53 PM

You can't, actually.
for propper multi monitor gaming, you need an uneven number of screens.
2 screens sucks because the center is where the hole between the screens is.
and 3D-gaming . . no, thank you, very much. 3D HALVES FPS because everything has to be done twice slightly different.
and it does not look any good either. it halves the light from the screen too, because, technically, half of the time you don't see anything at all, because the shutters in the glasses are shut to produce the 3d effect.
27" is for a single screen a good size, but as long as the resolution does not go up accordingly, i'll stay at 24" Full HD. Better DPI etc.

i see the 2nd system actually uses a Corsair Hydro H60 AIO water cooling solution. I'd have gone for a different one, but that is at least a pretty sensible choice, not many OEMs do that sadly . .

Posted by: StealthSigma Jan 3 2013, 08:58 PM

And they're not OCing the GFX cards. What a waste of that water cooling.

It needs x2 i7 3970s for it to be overbuilt.

Also, it looks like those 3970s are OCed to about 4.5GHz and that's a six core CPU with hyperthreading. Yep. Need two. Nothing says overbuilt like 24 virtual processors for your computer.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 3 2013, 09:01 PM

I was thinking, run two separate iterations ofthe FPS - one on each monitor, separately. And, LITERALLY split-screen. Hah.

Posted by: Lionhearted Jan 3 2013, 09:03 PM

Sure you don't know about these things Pax?

Posted by: Bigity Jan 3 2013, 09:04 PM

Would be fun for games that support the POV thing. Like Mech games. I guess you'd want at least three for that.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 3 2013, 09:12 PM

Eh?

I know about what's nice to have, just fine. What I don't know is how to put it together - which parts are compatible in the same computer.


Yeah, if IW as going to try to put an entire game across multiple monitors, I woudl want to find a way that didn't have the center of yru FOV fall between the monitors. A three-monitor setup is one way. Using one monitor for your FOV, and another for somethign else - resource management, inventory, etc - would be another way.

There's a huge jump in price to go from "the best Radeon and a nice monitor" to "a good NVidia and 3D monitor/glasses", though. OR else I'd've gone that way, even if it was for just one monitor.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jan 3 2013, 09:16 PM

The 3D is just a good way to get a headache, both literally and financially.

Posted by: StealthSigma Jan 3 2013, 09:20 PM

Supreme Commander had an awesome setup for two monitors. Primary monitor had your UI but either monitor would let you interact with the map at exactly the same level. So you could be zoomed in on battles in two areas at once or just use the second monitor as a huge friggin minimap. That's in addition to the fact that you could partition a display into at least two parts.

http://baksteenbrick.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/p1030100.jpg

Posted by: Iduno Jan 3 2013, 10:51 PM

Honestly, I'd rate it a bit easier than putting together a good SR4 character. And that's coming from someone who quit watching DVDs because it's too big of a pain to get the DVD player working (stupid composite cables).

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 3 2013, 11:02 PM

Different folks find different things to be easy or difficult.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 3 2013, 11:27 PM

Doesn't work i'm afraid.

Sadly, that's the ONLY game i know of that has something like that . .
You can't even put the menu on one screen and the field of view on the other in most games . .

Posted by: StealthSigma Jan 3 2013, 11:44 PM

It's either one display or link multiple displays to present a a more panoramic view.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Jan 4 2013, 05:07 AM

Hearing the talk of multiple monitors, I just have one question. What the heck is the point?

Posted by: CanRay Jan 4 2013, 05:33 AM

When one is an HDTV...

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 4 2013, 05:49 AM

Have you played MWO? If you have ... picture a three-monitor setup, giving you an entire 150-degree undistorted FOV.

Even without that; it can be very handy to have a second area to your desktop, for things like:

• playing a full-screen game on one, while keeping a Skype video chat open on the other;
• playing a full-screen game on one, and having a walkthrough / strategy guide up on the other;
• running any full-screen application on one, and having various monitoring software running on the other (SpeedFan, etc).

None of that is necessary, of course. But some of it can be rather convenient.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Jan 4 2013, 06:04 AM

What is MWO?

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 4 2013, 06:13 AM

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=37935

Posted by: All4BigGuns Jan 4 2013, 06:15 AM

I'd just never heard of it. Is it really that bad?

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 4 2013, 06:16 AM

... bad? why do you say it's bad?

Granted, it's not something I happen to like. But it's hardly bad.

And recognising that a multi-monitor setup might enhance a game, shouldn't make it "Bad" either.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Jan 4 2013, 06:30 AM

I asked if it was that bad because of the following quote:

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 4 2013, 07:02 AM

You should have kept reading - only five posts further on, I then posted this:

Yes, the font-size was used in the original post, too. All I've done is cut-and-paste a quote-block. Just like you did.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Jan 4 2013, 07:12 AM

More than that, I kinda stopped at the "this game is a pile of shit". Heh.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 4 2013, 10:19 AM

One should never form an opinion, with less than the whole of the information easily available to them.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 4 2013, 12:05 PM

I don't recall the last time I did NOT have two monitors (at home or at work). Almost never for games, except to leave chat/movie open in one screen while I play in the other. But for everything else. Movies and chat, giant project plans, copying data between documents, etc. About 60% of the time I'm using both. My wife, whose single screen is easily the size of my two work screens (and cost something like $2,000, compared to my $40) now also wants a second (normal) sized screen, for the same reason.

Your graphics card quite likely already supports this, if it was made in the past five years. I bought my screen used from a school for $20. They aren't too hard to find. Try it out. Assuming you have space on your desk, I don't think you'll ever go back.

Edit: Plus, screen radiation is how I maintain my healthy pallor. Double screens = double geek chic color.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 4 2013, 01:24 PM

Flat Screens don't have any meaningfull radiation anymore.
That went pretty much the way of the dodo with CRT-dispay.

But yes, i went to 2 screens 5 years ago and i am not looking back.
C³ is running on one and actual work/gaming/entertainment on the other.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 4 2013, 10:48 PM

I paid extra to get it as a feature with mine.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 23 2013, 09:43 PM

Well. Despite good past experiences with the OEM I ordered from, above .... they are so backlogged, and their communication with customers has degraded so badly ... that after a bloody month with no appreciable progress (nor even updates/emails) ... I've cancelled that order. Very disappointing.

Now to wait a week and a half for the refund to process, so I can place a new order with someone else. I'm currently looking at Puget computer; I'm still not confident enough to try assembling it myself, this time around. This time around:

• Motherboard: Asus Sabertooth 990FX R2.0
• CPU: AMD FX-8350 4GHzx8
• System RAM: Kingston, 16GB DDR3-2600 (4x4GB)
• Video card: AMD Radeon HD 7970, 3GB (single card this time)
• Sound Card: Asus Xonar DSX
• Other: Silverstone USB 3.0 controller, PCI-Express
• Primary Drive: Intel 520 SSD, 240GB
• Data Drive: Western Digital cavia Green, 3TB
• Optical Drive: Asus 12x BluRay burner
• Case: Antec P183 (Gunmetal finish, no side window)
• PSU: Seasonic X-850, 850W (80+ Platinum, yayy!)
• CPU Cooling: Puget Hydro CL3 liquid cooling (sealed system)
• Other cooling: case fans upgraded to Adjustable Speed; additional Chassis fan
• Case Mods: sound reduction materials; Cardkeeper retention package
• OS: Win7 Pro 64-bit

... for $2,931US, plus shipping.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jan 23 2013, 10:09 PM

I'll say again that I think liquid cooling is a waste. I tried it before and had no appreciable difference.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 23 2013, 10:13 PM

*shrug* It's a $22 difference from the Air-cooling option I'd've picked anyway.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jan 23 2013, 10:41 PM

Is it only $22? Huh. Crazy.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 23 2013, 10:47 PM

No, it's more than $22 total. It's just, that's the difference between the (sealed) system I picked, and the air-cooling setup I would otherwise have chosen.

Just itself, I think it's about seventy or eighty dollars.

It's not exactly this, but pretty close: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181015

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 23 2013, 10:50 PM

Personally, not a big fan of the latest AMD offerings, i'd go with intel myself.
But not for the SSD, there i would chose a samsung one.
WHY the BluRay BURNER?
BluRay Blanks are still hellishly expensive and most players won't play them anyway in my experience.
The GPU is good, but i'd go for a 7970 GHz Edition, if possible. It's right now the single strongest GPU out there.
External SoundCard . . again, why? The onboard Cards are usually good enough for everything you want to do.
If the iquid cooling is only 22 bucks more, then yeah, i'd go for that too. Hell, even AIO WaterCooling is usually about twice to three times as expensive as an aircooler.
Having the case-fans at adjustable speeds will make one hell of a difference, both cooling and in noise, so good choice there.
The PSU may be 80+ platinum, but this only means it's at peak efficiency if it's at 80% load. Which you will be hard pressed to achieve most of the time anyway.
The silverstone USB3-Controller . . does the Board not come with USB3 by itself already? O.o

edit:
aaah, so it IS an AIO WaterCooler . .
These are, sadly, still a bit hit and miss <.<
The CONCEPT is pure genius . . but execution can be pretty poor x.x
The loudest part of these are usually not even the Fans you need to blow the air through the Radiator. It's usually the pump, sadly <.<

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 23 2013, 11:24 PM

That BluRay drive I got (and bricked my old desktop installing), is a burner too. And the present came with a stack of 20 blank disks.

Anyway, I want it for archiving stuff. On as few disks as humanly possible. (For example, we have almost 16GB of photographs and video from our 2009 trip to Walt Disney World - which was 9 days, 8 nights. We're planning another trip there next January, 2014 ... for 16 days, 15 nights ... and I'll have a much better, HD-capable video camera, and we're bringing a friend with us; as a result, I expect to have 50, maybe 60 GB of video and photos. Maybe more, as I intend to "video blog" my trip, with daily installments, for a Disney-related forum I frequent.

And, well ... I'd like to be able to put all the video and stuff on fewer than five to eight disks, thanks. ;D


I would have, but Puget just doesn't have 'em.


I want it for the 7.1 Surround support. I already have my eye on a Logitech headset that supports 7.1, so ...


Puget calculates watt-usage as you go, actually. The calculator shows a peak usage of 600W even, so they recommended an 850W PSU. I probably could have gotten away with 750W, but the next-lower PSU Puget has is only 650W, and that's cutting it WAY too close - peak usage would be over 90% capacity. So, the extra 100W maximum capacity won't kill me.


It does ... but, two of the internal headers will be used up by the front panel (for only three USB3 ports, but *shrug* ...), so having an extra internal seemed prudent. Plus, and more importantly to me, it offers two more USB3 ports in the back: http://www.pugetsystems.com/parts/Controllers/Silverstone-USB-3-0-PCI-Express-card-9044

The motherboard comes with 4 internal headers, and 4 rear USB3 ports (and an astonishign 8 internal USB2 headers!!): http://www.pugetsystems.com/parts/Motherboard/Asus-SABERTOOTH-990FX-R2-0-9074

now ... I don't know if those four rear ports use any internal headers. If they do, likely 1 header per 2 ports (to match what the front panel needs) ... then without he card, I'd have zero unoccupied USB3 headers, but with it, I'll have 1. Meanwhile, I'll have 6 rear and 3 front USB3 connectors, which should cover my needs for a good 6-8 years, with a nice comfortable bit of wiggle-room, if you will. And at only $38, I'm not terribly worried about the price.


AIO = All-in-One? If so - that's the only kind of liquid cooling I'd be comfortable with, just now. Don't want to have to be checking coolant levels, not to mention storing coolant with three cats in the house, and probably (knowing my luck inside computer cases) spilling some when trying to refill, gah.

Anyway, it's a Puget-branded unit, based on a CoolIT model: http://www.pugetsystems.com/parts/CPU-Cooling/Puget-Hydro-CL3-Liquid-Cooling-System-7617

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 23 2013, 11:40 PM

Yes, AIO=All-In-One WaterCooling.
And yes, if it's a CoolIT, then it is exactly the same as the Corsair ones with the square Cooling/Pump-Unit.
Because they are just rebranded CoolIT too.
And yes, i know what you mean with being comfortable with that.
I worked in a Computer BuyAndRepairShop for some weeks while in School, and i had THREE Computers with busted Watercooling on my Desk in that Time alone . .

i was dumb enough to not check wether or not my computers case comes with a cut out on the mainbaord try so i don't have to remove the whole board to change the cpu cooler . .
if the cut-out for a back-plate were there, i'd have gotten an Corsair H100 long ago, because my Q9650(still socket 775) goes up to 110° Celsius und a Gaming-Spree with the Intel Standard Cooler.
i am too damn lazy to change it like this <.<

and i am hoping SOMEBODY will make a GPU of the 7970GHz or an OCed GTX680 Series with the Arctic Accelero Hybrid, because that's an AIO for GraphicsCards.

Posted by: Halinn Jan 23 2013, 11:40 PM

Terabyte-range HDDs are quite cheap.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 23 2013, 11:57 PM

And not so portable from one PC to another. Just in this house, we have ... um ... let's see, two desktops, three laptops, one ultrabook, one tablet, one tablet-ish eReader, three iPod touches.

And then there's that friend of mine. I'd love to be able to just hand her a disk and say "there, that's every picture or video any of the four of us took. Enjoy yourself!"

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 24 2013, 12:07 AM

I would upgrade to THAT, in a frelling heartbeat. I'd burn $100 or so, if it were possible right now, even.

I can, have, and pre-Bricking regularly did do marathon 6+ hour gaming sessions, with everything dialled up as high as my old GTX 275 could handle. And heat was always an issue int eh back of my mind ... cooling is one place I am willin to say "there is no such thing as oberbuilt".

Kind of like Maxim 34: "There is no such thing as Overkill; there is only Open fire and Time to reload".

Also, "If you're leaving scorch marks, you need a bigger gun." Forget which maxim that one is ...

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 24 2013, 10:41 AM

Yeah, an AIO for CPU and one for GPU would be pretty boss.
And the cooler keeps the card about 5 to 10° celsius cooler than most aircoolers do.
AND is much much quieter to boot!

Posted by: taeksosin Jan 24 2013, 07:54 PM

A friend of mine recommended Maingear as the folks he has build his machines. He had a bum video card ship with his, which they were on the ball about fixing (overnighted a brand new card to him) so you may wanna take a look at pricing one out with them as well.

Posted by: CanRay Jan 24 2013, 08:17 PM

External Hard Drives are great items to have!

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 24 2013, 08:23 PM

*nods*
i just bought a 2.5" 2TB HDD for a buddy as a birthday present . . might buy one for me myself too . .

Posted by: Ryu Jan 25 2013, 09:21 AM

I`d still go with the Intel line. Don´t worry too much about the PSU load, once that is "high enough" efficiency does not vary much.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 27 2013, 11:32 PM

Okay, I just have to say this: the people at http://www.pugetsystems.com/ are Awesome Incarnate.

See, with the first OEM - iBuyPower - communication was nearly zero, and progress was indistinguishable from zero. It took them eight calendar days from teh moment they had all $3.5K of my money, to even start "gathering materials". Then, after thirteen more days of no progress at all, I finally cancelled the order entirely. I mean, I get that it's not an instantaneous process, I get that they had a holiday rush to work through, but still ... enough was in fact more than enough.

So, the moment the refund processed (thankfully, with more alacrity than the actual order had shown), I went to my #2 choice, Puget systems.

Night. And. Day.

They promise to answer emails within 24 hours "except weekends and holidays"; I sent them a query yesterday ... yep, a weekend. I didn't expect an answer before Monday evening or Tuesday lunchtime, here on the East Coast. I got an answer only a few hours later. After a brief back-and-forth, things were completely set up this morning, and I made the payments.

And by "completely set up", by the way, I mean "better than I'd ever expected". Not only did he give me the split-payment I needed (curse those daily limits), but he went over my build, and realised I really really want the computer ASAP. So instead of overnight-air delivery, he suggested second-day air ... saving enough money to overnight in the two parts they didn't have in stock, and then gave me Rush Service as pretty much a courtesy - explaining that doing so would shave 3 days off the build time, and in net, get the computer in my hands 2 days faster.

And finally, in response to my "hey, thanks for being so awesome" email? The last sentence of his answer to that, was: "That will have a link where you can follow along as we build the system, and then we'll send you pictures and tracking info once it is done and ships out."

Follow along? Pictures ...?

Okay. Unless the machine itself is somehow pure junk, that's it .... customer loyalty, secured. It will hopefully be eight or nine years before I want to buy a ground-up new PC again, but Puget has now moved to #1 position on my list of vendors to get it from.

Posted by: _Pax._ Jan 30 2013, 01:16 PM

... their Order Status page is awesome. It tracks the status of each component, hardware and software alike. So, at a glance, I know that the computer is completely assembled physically, awaiting only the OS and a few other software installs I asked for. There is a very real possibility I will have my computer here, set up and operating, by Friday evening! If not then, I should have it by Monday or Tuesday of next week - barring any unforseen difficulties, like a component failure during testing.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 30 2013, 02:52 PM

good luck

Posted by: Mach_Ten Feb 1 2013, 02:02 PM

Been reading this with interest for a few days now,

first off : all the bests with that beautiful machine , Intel would blaze but AMD is good for the top of budget.

If I wasn't so bloody minded and tedious, I'd always pay someone to build my machines rather than buy branded

the choice of components makes it much more "My Machine" than some Compaq I bought from PC World, and it's still under warranty.

for example here is the beauty I built a couple years back, completely outdated now dammit I wanna spend cash for an upgrade

[img]http://a.imageshack.us/img830/1159/img0269sq.jpg[/img]

the build log is here if you're interested in WHY TO NEVER DO THIS EVER!
cause it can go horribly horribly wrong

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18169302

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 1 2013, 02:16 PM

No embedding Pictures on Dumpshock

Posted by: Mach_Ten Feb 1 2013, 03:29 PM

wondered why it didn't work

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 1 2013, 03:59 PM

i posted soemthing when they had it activated accidentally, shortly thereafter it was shut off again ^^
also:
way too much work in that project of yours . .
and 2 GPU's more than i want in mine . .
but i am thinking of going full corsair as far as possible with my next one . .
So, Corsair 800D, Corsair PSU semi active cooling, Corsair RAM, Corsair AIO Water-Cooler, Corsair Link, Corsair SSD . .
Only MB, CPU and GPU won't be Corsair . .
Maybe one or two HDD's and Optical drive too . .

Posted by: Mach_Ten Feb 1 2013, 04:17 PM

Corsair makes GOOD stuff !

Multi GPU at the time was the best way for me, I only wish I had gotten the 2GB RAM GPU's though as they would have scaled better.

My next build will be Intel & Nvidia, the mix just seems to be more supported in modern gaming, no political reasons for one over the other

and I think I'll stay Air cooled Water has been fun, but it's high maintenance .. unless I get an AIO.

and for info ... if you guys have played MWO and didn't like it .. are any of you on MW Living Legends ? it is AWESOME !

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 1 2013, 04:42 PM

Yes, i have been with MWLL from 0.1.0
If you search around, you will notice me having opened the MWLL Thread here some years back.
And now MWO killed it off these bastards <.<
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=29288

if i can get a GPU with pre-installed for warranty AIO water-cooling, i will go to both GPU water cooling and CPU water cooling.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 1 2013, 07:55 PM

Puget also takes pictures, and posts them for their customers to see (and download). I've put all of them http://s30.beta.photobucket.com/user/GMPax/library/New%20PC%202013.

On the topic of cooling, or not, though, the two Thermal images are of expecial relevance.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c313/GMPax/New%20PC%202013/Idle_101045_zpsf02c1622.jpg;

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c313/GMPax/New%20PC%202013/Idle_101045_zpsf02c1622.jpg.

In the Load image, you can actually see the RAM sticks warming up (thin greenish lines to the right of the water-block). You can also see that teh GPU is pretty much the only appreciable heat source still inside the case.

So, yeah. A nice upgrade for me, would be to go with an AIO liquid cooled video card. Probably have to shift the CPU radiator to teh top vent (there IS a fan there, already), and put the video-card radiator where the CPU one is now.

...

And, I caved in to my impatience. I'll be upgrading to overnight shipping, with Saturday delivery. Tomorrow, my shiny new Prreciousss *gollum* will arrive! ~_^

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 1 2013, 07:58 PM

Keep in mind, both NVidia and AMD offer two-GPU-on-one-card versions of their current top-end processors. GTX 690 for NVidia, Radeon HD 7990 for AMD.

And the NVidia one, at least, I've seen with pre-installed AIO liquid cooling.

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 1 2013, 09:00 PM

show me one please?
and i don't want more than one GPU in my case.
especially now that the titan card has been announced.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 1 2013, 09:10 PM

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-7990-devil13-7970-x2,3329.html


Not AIO, but it is a liquid-cooled GTX 690: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130803

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 1 2013, 10:09 PM

1. Link:
Which one of these is AIO Water-Cooled?

2. Link:
No AIO, no Water-Cool for me.
I don't want more than one GPU in my System, but if the only card i can get with an AIO-Water-Cooling Solution is a Double GPU Card, then yes, i'd probably buy one just because . .

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 1 2013, 10:19 PM

Neither. I wasn't sure what exactly you wanted to be shown. I can't find any video cards with an AIO system pre-installed, but then, I'm not exactly searchign high and low for them. You got two google searches out of me. That's the limit, without delivery of chocolate or some such.

Possibly you'd have to mount the AIO to the GPU yourself. I wouldn't even know where to BEGIN looking for compatible AIO kits to do that with, however.


Out of curiousity ... why not? I mean, I can understand (and agree) if it's "they're too expensive", but that will probably change in a year or two. OTOH, if there's a reason other than cost, I'd be interested to hear it.

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 1 2013, 10:57 PM

1st
they are too expensive
2nd
they don't scale as well as people believe, if you are really unlucky, you get 50% more power out of a 2nd GPU . .
3rd
you need profiles for games and in some cases even normal programs to make use of the 2nd GPU. without such profiles, the performance can actually be below 100% of a single GPU, because the computer has to do extra work to not make th game crash by keeping the 2nd GPU out of things . .
4th
they get way hotter than a single GPU and thus require more and louder cooling, which is a no no for me in terms of performance rating and i don't want a complete water cooling solution . . AIO is the closest i am willing to go to water cooled components.
5th
in addition and related to this is the need for more power from the PSU/wall socket/outlet, which means i need a bigger and more expensive and hotter PSU and thus more cooling needed on the PSU too.
6th
even if it DOES, indeed, work as perfect as it can work, i am sensitive enough to notice the micro-stuttering . . yes, i have tried it both with an SLI-System with 2x8800GTX and with one ATI Radeon 4870x2 Card.
So it's a complete waste of money in my eyes, because i tend to have more problems for more money spent . .

Posted by: Ryu Feb 1 2013, 10:59 PM

That cooling system looks sweet. How much noise reduction do you get from that setup?

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 1 2013, 11:00 PM

1-5 I chalk up to personal taste. 6, however, makes the aversion completely understandable.

IOW, "aha, NOW I grok."

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 1 2013, 11:17 PM

How's 1-5 personal taste?
More cumbersome, expensive and power hungry seem like legit concerns to me...

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 1 2013, 11:21 PM

They're not rooted in a medical / physiological cause.

Obviously, if those things were universally inferior, they simply wouldn't still be on the market. Someone out there must think that double-GPU setups are worth the weight, heat, power consumption, price, and so forth.

Choosing to favor lower-heat, lower-power-needs, lower price over however much or little performance boost the setup gives you, is just that, a choice.

Whereas, being able to perceive (and be put off by) levels of microstutter, that most people can't? There's no choice with that. Either you're born with the nerve clusters needed to do so, or you're not.



It's like, for me? The old-style red/blue 3D gave me splitting headaches - a fact I unhappily discovered when I was at Disney World, as a fourteen year old boy. Thus, if that was the only 3D option out there, I would pass on 3D altogether.

Luckily - and I have NFC why - but polarisation style 3D doesn't do teh same thing. Oh, my eyes are a bit more tired after a 2-3 horu stint than normal (much more pronouncedly so if I don't wear my normal glasses underneath the 3D glasses). But, no headaches ... thank the gods.

But, see ... my preference for Polarisation-based 3D, over red/blue filter based 3D? Is not a matter of personal taste ... it's a medical and physiological imperative: one costs me pain, the other doesn't, and thank you but I'll pass on the pain.

Hence why I grok Stahl's #6: one causes him discomfort, the other doesn't, and thank you but he'll pass on that discomfort.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 2 2013, 08:48 AM

See, that's why I don't get. Why isn't things like resource conservation and environmental thinking part of the equation?
A higher power demand does not only mean a higher electrical bill, it also means that the power demand increases, sure there is excess energy today... But if everyone share the same line of thinking, that excess won't be enough.
I bit off colour maybe, but that kind of thinking gets poisonous very quickly, it's not just personal taste.
Especially when the gain is quite negligible and ridden with it's own issues.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 2 2013, 08:57 AM

I didn't say they weren't.

Some people prefer to conserve resources, protect the environment, and so on.

Some people prefer to have the most bleeding-edge powerful computer possible.

Which side of that you fall on, is personal preference. Getting the super-powerful components, or, getting the "Greener" components, is a choice.

Whereas, headaches from red/blue filter 3D, or discomfort from microstutter ... those are physiological things. There's no choice involved at all.

See how that works?

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 2 2013, 09:07 AM

Don't want to start an enviromental debate... Yes, green thinking is a choice... Right now, it won't be for much longer. I personally think that attitude stinks, but let's just leave it at that. Not the time or place.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 2 2013, 09:15 AM

/facepalm

Posted by: Grinder Feb 2 2013, 11:53 AM

No need to respond on that, Pax.

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 2 2013, 11:59 AM

I brought up a potentially volatile subject to begin with, my apologies.

Posted by: Grinder Feb 2 2013, 12:47 PM

Yes, but you realised it and asked to not discuss the topic any further.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 2 2013, 02:05 PM

So ... what, I'm not allowed to be mildly frustrated when it turns out all my sincere efforts to answer someone's request for explanation, were really answering the wrong question? Or else I get the Mod Voice treatment??

...

...

Okay, then. O_o

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 2 2013, 03:22 PM

Eh. Whole thread just became irrelevant for a few days anyway. IT'S HERE!! Off I go to set it up - clear off and move the desk, etc, etc, etc .... ^_^

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 2 2013, 03:44 PM

For a few days? you expecting a nuclear turnout?

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 2 2013, 04:34 PM

I've been without the ability to play games more advanced than "Plants versus Zombies" since the day after Christmas; my laptop has a Window Experience index of only 4.7, as it was only ever intended for web-browsing, PDF reading, running HeroLab, and similar tasks; meanwhile, the new PC (using it right now) has a 7.8 (and the video sub-rating is 7.9), out of 7.9 possible.

And while I was without a gaming-capable PC, Borderlands 2 came out with a new DLC ... Skyri is about to drop a new PC ...

So, yeah. I'll be popping in now and again, of course. But most of my attention is going to be securely held by finally getting my fix ... O_O hehehe

Posted by: Lionhearted Feb 2 2013, 05:26 PM

Luckily I got a 3ds to occupy myself with until I can afford a new computer
Close to 500+ hours put into Pokémon B&W

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 2 2013, 05:32 PM

i have a gaming laptop in addition to my gaming computer . .
hell, even my old computer still works and can run most games at medium settings reasonably well . .
redundancy is an important thing in the world of computing!

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 4 2013, 01:33 PM

High end video cards aren't just for gaming. The other two areas are 3D engineering software and video rendering. When you're talking about long animations, every little bit of power helps.

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 4 2013, 01:43 PM

bitcoin mining.
seti @ home
everything else that can be GPU accellerated

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 4 2013, 01:58 PM

I'm talking legitimate uses. Bitcoin is a sham. SETI@Home is just a way to make sure your power consumption is doing something rather than idling.

Posted by: nezumi Feb 4 2013, 02:52 PM

How much of an impact does the GPU have on image processing (like photoshop)? Or is that more a function of RAM?

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 4 2013, 03:12 PM

For photoshop? I believe it derives more from RAM than GPU. Engineering programs do benefit since they render, especially with 3D engineering programs.

Posted by: Mach_Ten Feb 5 2013, 12:37 PM

sorry, busy weekend plannign a run and then getting shot at during a run

self built watercooling systems can be as quiet as you want all the way to silent if you can find room for all the radiators and don't push the power too high.

the simple way it works :

rather than

having ONE fan at high speeds pushing air into a CPU / GPU mounted heatsink, which is loud!

you have many (two or three or four or six) LOW RPM fans mounted on the radiators ..

the water is more effective at heat transfer and the radiator better distributes heat away from the case with help from the gentle fans.

it is a LOT of effort to get the same or slightly more benefit but with the reduction in noise it makes sense.

so, now I can hear Mrs. Mach screaming at me for spending too much time on the PC


plus with water you can overclock a bit more and generate about 10 -15 degrees more heat that the water system can dissipate better than air alone
BUT I'm sure that others will say, it's not always the case.

the AIO systems are good but it's just being more efficient at moving the heat from the CPU to outside the case as opposed to air cooled alone.

Posted by: Mach_Ten Feb 5 2013, 12:38 PM

Oh and PAX !! come on man .... Piccies ! .. show us the rig

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 5 2013, 06:02 PM

Real men use mercury cooled systems instead of water cooled.

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 5 2013, 06:41 PM

Real men are often also stupid if that's true O.o

Posted by: Mach_Ten Feb 5 2013, 06:49 PM

Bah .. what's a small dose of Mercury poisoning between Chummers ??

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 5 2013, 06:54 PM

if it gets out, it's still a conductive liquid flowing around my hardware, that's a small dose of mercury poisoning between chummers.

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 5 2013, 07:32 PM

Liquid metal cooling is superior to water cooling (health hazards aside). The problem is that a lot of the other options (Sodium and Lead) are solid at the temperatures computers operate at.

Posted by: Halinn Feb 5 2013, 07:38 PM

I like my rig to be liquid helium-cooled.

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 5 2013, 07:43 PM

And what are you all doing if a fan or two isn't cooling enough? (Then again I'm a cheap bastard and don't want to pay for that other stuff.)

Posted by: nezumi Feb 5 2013, 07:49 PM

Indeed. My understanding was the liquid-cooling systems usually use a non-conductive alcohol-based coolant, not water, for the very same reason.

However, a mercury cooled system certainly would LOOK neater.

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 5 2013, 08:04 PM

Well, pure water is a better coolant than any sort of alcohol mixture. It's around 4x as efficient, I think, while mercury is about 14x as efficient as water. If you can manage the coolant flow rate and provide radiator that is of a metal that mercury doesn't react with, it would be pretty good. Mercury was used as a coolant for nuclear reactors on ships... it just presented some significant maintenance issues.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should make a mercury cooled computer. The risks aren't worth it.

Also.... pure water is basically non-conductive for the purposes of cooling electrical components. A computer can be submerged in pure water with no problem. You can also submerge a computer in http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/292116-31-noit-aquarium-computer-submerged for cooling.

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 5 2013, 08:12 PM

Your wish is my command:

http://s30.beta.photobucket.com/user/GMPax/library/New%20PC%202013






Mineral oil - 5x better than air, 1.25x better than pure water, see-through unlike mercury. Plus it's nonconductive, unlike merkury. (Also, I don't think you'd want to have SIX GALLONS of mercury in a largely OPEN TANK. That stuff is a bloody NEUROTOXIC heavy metal .... a tank rupture would produce a HazMat site!!)

Anyway; the OEM I bought this computer from, Puget Systems, has built and rebuilt a mineral-oil-cooled "fish tank" computer several times now, and sells DIY kits for customers who want one of their own. Their recommendation is for clear "white" mineral oil, the same kind used by veterinarians as a laxative, in fact: http://www.pugetsystems.com/submerged.php

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 5 2013, 08:25 PM

There IS a Liquid-Metal-Cooling Solution actually.
It's Mercury/Silver or something like that. And it works like a smaller Version of one of these AIO Water cooling Solutions too.
There is one big hunk of metal, the actual heat-sink. And through that runs, what ammounts to, basically, a really thick circular heat-pipe.
In there the liquid metal is moving around. And it's moved by a Magnet on top of the Heat-Sink. So all it does is move Heat away from the CPU
faster to the top of the Heat-Sink. Which is still, all in all, a Tower-Cooler needing a Fan.

And no, water, even distilled water, is no good for cooling hardware.
And even de-ionized water is bad. It may not lead a current as well as normal water, but what it does is, it binds ions like nobodys business.
So as soon as the Water gets something in it, like, say, a bit of dust from the Air and the surface of other components, which is very likely to have
accumulated on the inside of your case, it goes STRAIGHT back to normal water which leads a current perfectly well again.

Another innovative cooling idea was to implement a peltier element to the system. Which gets colder, when a current is applied and produces a current when heat is applied.
This does not work all that well either, sadly and never reached consumer level application.

The next innovative idea was to do away with Fans which produce the noise and vibrations, which is annoying, and to move the air by using electro-static currents to move
the ions and elektrons and thus the air itself through the cooling fins without the need for actually moving parts . . this did not reach the market in a consumer product either.

The best looking and most impressive cooling solution is, as mentioned by Sigma, the Oil-Submerged-Computer.
Aside from the HDD and Optical Drive, everything goes into the liquid, which dampens vibrations and noise from fans while being a better heat conductor than air.
This is a pretty expensive and invasive cooling method and no good at all for people who like to tinker with their stuff from time to time, because getting all that oil out is . .
ugh, frigging annoying is the mildest word that comes to mind . . basically, you have to hang your hardware out to dry for several days before you can do anything with it.
It also immobilizes a computer pretty well, because it gets fucking heavy and the pressure inside makes the whole system inherently sensitive to movement.
Especially the walls of the case. Which need to be 100% airtight on the seams and thick enough to hold in the oil without breaking. making the whole case even heavier.
Also, the oil useable for this is frigging expensive, at about 25 bucks per bottle and a bottle being about 0,5l. To fill a 10l tank you need 20 bottles, which comes up to 500 bucks in oil alone.

Liquid Oxygen or Nitrogen Cooling the the crown of all cooling, with which the benchmarking and overclocking records are achieved . . like a CPU going to 8GHz from it's base of 4GHz for example.

These are extreme cases though and not really needed.
Water-Cooling on the other hand lowers System-Temperature, Component-Temperature AND noise and vibrations produced by the System, if done correctly.
Comes at the price of being hugely expensive and invasive and maintenance heavy and inherently dangerous to the Hardware because of the water . .

I right now sit on a compute that has 10 Fans from 90 to 250mm running in it.
Which makes it fairly loud and vibration intensive . . but seeing how the computer cost 2500€ and i already had one melting down in a summer once, i would rather deal with this than with risking my hardware to overheating failure again . .


As you can see, i invested a bit of thought into the whole matter . .
And i have come to the conclusion, that a real water cooling solution is too bloody hard to do for me, too expensive for my taste and too work intensive while inherently dangerous for my computer . .
AIO Water-Cooling is, for people like me, the ideal solution to these Problems.
Which makes it all the more annyoing, that there is not a single GPU with pre applied AIO Water-Cooling on sale damn it x.x

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 5 2013, 08:59 PM

My case has three air zones for cooling. It also has filtered grating on the bottom to allow cool air to be draw up into the case and grating on the top of the case to permit warm air to rise out of it naturally. The power supply is mounted in the bottom of the case and has a firewall separating it from the motherboard so the power supply is drawing air up through the same grating in the bottom without cannibalizing air from other components. I have a 120mm fan in that firewall that draws the cool air from the ground up into the motherboard section with a 120mm fan that expells air outward along with the GPU fan and the case ceiling grating. Then my harddrives have their own dedicated 120mm for cooling and are also firewalled from the power supply and motherboard. The loudest fan on the case is the GPU fan.

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 5 2013, 09:16 PM

No, sadly this case is not really optimized for heat management . .
ThermalTake Armor 8003 BWS
it doesn't even have a cutout in the mainboard tray to make swapping heatsinks with back plate mounting easy . .
which is why i still have the god damn awfull intel stock cooler on my Q9650 CPU <.<
meaning it does, after 2 hours of hardcore gaming, go up to 105° Celsius x.x

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 5 2013, 09:32 PM

My case would let me use a backplate mounted heat sink if I wanted to, but the stock options for cooling are quite effective even after playing Total War for hours.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Feb 5 2013, 11:06 PM

Note to self - get pictures of my tiny, self made computer for you folks that runs stuff on max or very near max setting without heating/cooling issues using only built in fans and heatsinks and 1 large, low sound fan. I can't even hear the damn thing running.

Posted by: CanRay Feb 6 2013, 01:14 AM

Hydrogen Cooling, what could go wrong?

I'll name the system "The Graf Zeppelin"!

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 6 2013, 01:41 AM

Well, usually, liquid nitrogen is used, not Hydrogen . .

Posted by: All4BigGuns Feb 6 2013, 01:43 AM

Hmm...got me thinking. If I ever win a MASSIVE lottery jackpot, maybe I'll look into liquid nitrogen...

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 6 2013, 02:25 AM

i won't.
ain't worth it.

Posted by: Halinn Feb 6 2013, 12:46 PM

Keeping it from evaporating would be really difficult. The amount of power needed to keep re-cooling it so that it stays liquid will be immense.

Also, the components very likely won't be able to handle temperatures of around 77 K

Posted by: StealthSigma Feb 6 2013, 01:14 PM

I trend towards LARGE desktops to maximize how much air space the computer has. It also provides a lot more room for cable management to avoid airflow issues. I also like cases that have built in cable management options. My current case has a lot of rubber buttholes to run cables on the backplate rather than running them throught the motherboard region.

Posted by: nezumi Feb 6 2013, 02:19 PM

Bear in mind, liquid nitrogen is also the superior option for battling T-1000 robots. Firewalls won't do that, no matter how many buttholes they have.

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 6 2013, 02:44 PM

Yes, there is that . . but how things are right now, i'll probably be on their side anyway . .

Posted by: Mach_Ten Feb 6 2013, 04:14 PM

I also welcome our new robotic overlords,

PAX that looks so clean and well built ! they did a fab job of cable management and air flow. you done good !

Some one said summat about a lottery win ? were I to have unlimited funds it'd be intel i7 with multiple Nvidia GPU's all watercooled and built by this guy !

seriously http://www.ekwb.com/news/301/19/COOLedPC-winners-announced/

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 6 2013, 05:17 PM

Yes, that looks pretty nice.
Which is the one thing i miss about the AIO-Cooling . .

Posted by: Bigity Feb 6 2013, 06:23 PM

Ordering this soon: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834230592&Tpk=G75VW-NH71

I'll slap in a SSD at some point after I decide if I want to ditch Win8 for Win7 Pro (which I already own)


Hurry up IRS

Posted by: _Pax._ Feb 6 2013, 06:32 PM

They really did do a good job, but to be fair, newer (should I say, "modern" ...?) mid-tower cases tend to provide space(s) for the cables and such to go BEHIND the main tray, so it's harder to have bad cable management now.

Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 7 2013, 12:07 AM

*kicks case*
yes, i know what you mean <.<

@Bigity
looks a bit like my old gamign notebook, but that only has an 460M and 16GB RAM and a 120GB SSD plus an 500GB HDD.