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Posted by: Backgammon Sep 2 2003, 08:16 PM

I've been looking at White Wolf games recently, and I'd like to know your thoughts on them, especially if you've played some. How do they compare to Shadowrun? It seems like there is less to "do" in these games, being limited by the fact that you are a vampire or whatever. Shadowrun has this liberty of goal and actions that I don't think these games have.

Also, I took a quick look at Mage traditions, and man, there are some good ideas for Shadowrun initiatory groups and threats in there. I especially liked the idea of mages who are fervent ecstasy seekers. Seems so obvious to me know that such groups would exist in Shadowrun.

Anyway, please post your miscellaneous thoughts on all of this.

Posted by: HMHVV Hunter Sep 2 2003, 08:24 PM

I think the focuses of the games are very different. Shadowrun works more like an action movie, while most of the White Wolf games work more like an action/drama/horror depending on what kind of game you're running. I don't think there's anything fundamentally worse about WW games compared to Shadowrun or vice versa, they're just different styles. And I like both of them.

My 2

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 2 2003, 08:25 PM

I tend to try and follow the metaplot, which culminates in everything being responsible by a guy named Dave living in Illinois.

Posted by: Ronin Soul Sep 3 2003, 01:09 AM

The feeling of the games is as said very different to Shadowrun. I'll talk about both the World of Darkness games and Exalted.

The World of Darkness games can best be summed up in one word; desperation. You play as a being of great power who is in a losing fight against whatever it is. In Mage you are fighting against the restricting grasp of "reality". In Demon you are fighting for Redemption in a world without faith. In Vampire you fight against destiny (the imminent end of the world). In Werwolf (the most combat heavy) you fight a losing battle against the Wyrm, against pollution and corruption.
Those are very broad, but my experience with those games isn't large. My WOD game of choice is Hunter, and that's the most desperate. You've been chosen to fight in a war no-one has any real idea how to fight against monsters that are ancient and very powerful, armed only with a few supernatural abilities that seem squat in comparison to what the creatures of the night have.
All WOD games are in short bleak, dark and desperate in atmosphere.

Exalted is also different to Shadowrun but for different reasons. Basically you play a demi god in it. This means you have enormous potential to change the world. Unlike in Shadowrun where the players can't really change the status quo, in Exalted you can (from taking over cities, to overthrowing empires to dealing with a major "bad" guy in the setting). In Exalted you have the strength to change the world, and as players you are encouraged to use it. Exalted is a game of epic deeds, epic struggles and total coolness. It is based on anime and Hong Kong action movies, as well as old epics like the Illiad and the Romance of Three Kingdoms.
Exalted is my favourite game of all time and it shows.

Check out http://www.white-wolf.com if you're really interested. All the games have good coverage (as well as Orpheus - a game I know little about).

Hope that helped

Posted by: Pistons Sep 3 2003, 02:10 AM

Well, Orpheus just barely came out, so there hasn't been much time for folks to formulate on an opinion yet. My copy came in the mail today. Mmm.

Posted by: Darth Phylos Sep 3 2003, 02:18 AM

Posted by: HMHVV Hunter Sep 3 2003, 02:20 AM

For that matter, what is Orpheus? I've never heard of it until now.

Posted by: Finbar Sep 3 2003, 04:01 AM

Well, I ran a Changeling The Shadowrun game at Dragoncon, aside from the silliness involved in having a bunch of comedians as players, it works rather well.

Posted by: BookWyrm Sep 3 2003, 04:07 AM

Orpheus (a VERY limited RPG) is about the player becoming employed by The Orpheus Group, a collection of Meduims-for-hire who regularly send their spirits over to the Deadlands (see also Wraith) to invesigate. Of course, problems ensue....

Shadowrun stands on it's own, both as a Cyberpunk-theme and with it's unique Magic system.

Posted by: HMHVV Hunter Sep 3 2003, 04:09 AM

The Orphic Circle?!

I remember hearing about those guys from other WW RPGs!

Cool

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 3 2003, 04:12 AM

Yeeaah...they do that alot.

Posted by: Adam Sep 3 2003, 04:39 AM

The Orpheus page is at http://www.white-wolf.com/orpheus/ - it looks pretty interesting. I hope my copy arrives soon.

Posted by: HMHVV Hunter Sep 3 2003, 04:42 AM

Hmmm...apparently I was mistaken. This doesn't look like the Orphic Circle.

So these guys are basically World of Darkness Ghostbusters?

Posted by: Enkeli Sep 3 2003, 05:10 AM

And if you are looking some recent world changing canon information, check out the http://www.timeofjudgement.com. It basicly says that the current World Of Darkness, discluding Exalted and the Dark Ages line, will come to an end at 14. of january 2004. But they will release a new World Of Darkness line at the end of that year.

Posted by: Pistons Sep 3 2003, 01:10 PM

Posted by: HMHVV Hunter Sep 3 2003, 01:46 PM

Posted by: Adam Sep 3 2003, 01:52 PM

It's in the following press release: http://www.timeofjudgement.com/press.html

"An all-new World of Darkness launches in August of 2004."

Posted by: HMHVV Hunter Sep 3 2003, 02:00 PM

Sweeeeeeeeet.

Posted by: kevyn668 Sep 3 2003, 02:43 PM

The thing I like best about the World of Darkness is the desperation factor. Its almost like EVERYONE stats out w/ the Dark Fate flaw, 'cause yer all gonna die when the world ends...

But by that same hand it gives rise to a lot more martyrs (I like Werewolf the best, could ya tell?). I tend towards a "your ends justify your means" in RL and RP so when the fate of the world is on the line, pretty much anything goes. I also like the anti-hero concept. Its even more prevelant than SR. In SR you could be thought of a "street moster" or "criminal" by the general populace. In WOW, for the most part, you ARE a monster.

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 3 2003, 03:59 PM

Apart from all that, it seems that the WOD has most comedian-players on its side. I don't know why, but personal experience and surfing the web showed me, that NO rpg can stand up against the dark and gritty worlds from White Wolf, when it comes to make the table lough out reaaaaaaly loud.

It's like a small paradox...

Posted by: Snow_Fox Sep 3 2003, 04:26 PM

You mean they came out with a new system, jusdt a few months before they scrap all their systems?

We've played a little with them , Hot wheels is going to GM a short campaign of VtM after we finish the current story line we're on. The games seem to be very character driven with basic tmeplates that you build on. Lots and lots of supplimetns but little in the way of pre-written adventures so GM's really have to feel out their way.

Posted by: Adam Sep 3 2003, 04:56 PM

Posted by: Backgammon Sep 3 2003, 05:25 PM

Hmm, pretty interesting stuff, especially Ronin Soul. But what do players do in an average session? I mean, in Shadowrun, there's gonna be a "mission" somewhere, where you are going to do something ranging from infiltrating a facility to killing a fixer in the slums. And in between this action, your players will relate with the shadowy people of their world, while at the same time fighting to keep their sane humanity, be it simply by making a small gesture like stopping a pimp from beating your favorite whore.

So what do you *do* in mage, vampire or werewolf? The metaplot seems to be extremely prelevent (compared to shadowrun, where canon evets don't really influence my games much), which is something I think I like. So do you go around gathering info on the coming apocalyspe exclusively? I just don't see what a game would be about, what it's stucture is, and what the long term fun is. Acting like a dramatic brooding vampire is fun for like a game or two, but I don't see myself truly developing a character like that.

And yeah, I visited White Wolf's page. That's what prompted my post.

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 3 2003, 06:10 PM

What do you do?

That's up to the Storyteller and your players to decide.
It's good to actually talk about what characters they want to play and if they have some set goals.

Vampire: One character could try to become the justacar or even prince of a city, while the other might try to help him to further their anarch goals.

Mage: The old masters are gone. New paradigms arise. New opportunities. The players perhaps want to form a _real_ multi-tradition cabal and show a way for the others to follow. So, where do they set up their chantrie? How do they secure their node from Werebeasts and the Technocrats? How to consolidate power?

Werewolf: Never played... Sorry. No hints that I could give you, without talking out of my ass.

Wraith: Struggle with your shadow. Try to correct old wrongs. And don't slide too far away...

Changeling: Again... Sorry.

. . .

It's much mory 'story' driven than 'mission oriented'. (Meant in a neutral way!)

Posted by: Atrox Sep 3 2003, 06:30 PM

Werewolf can be mission-oriented, of sorts. Obviously, when you go against an all-pervasive evil like the Wyrm, you have to pick a battle . . . then another . . . and another.

Say you take out a few Vamps just for warm-up, then discover they're in league with this corp, Pentex. So you go there, smash their local HQ (not as easy as it sounds), and see where that leads you.

Usually, the "missions" are ones the characters choose, rather than ones given to them by an employer, though. The chars might just as easily fight against snuff kiddie porn producers with supernatural connections . . .

In Vampire, it often makes sense to create a group with some reason to belong to/trust in each other. Unlike the Garou, who at least share a common goal, Vamps usually don't have common goals, at least not across Clan lines. These slags invented the concept of paranoia and don't consider it a sickness; it's a survival trait. In VtM, they are out to get you. All of them. Including your Sire, your siblings in darkness, your Clan brothers and sisters, literally everyone.
At least canon makes it sound like that.

Posted by: Black Isis Sep 3 2003, 07:57 PM

I think my biggest problem with WoD is that it slid down the slippery slope that Shadowrun sometimes skirts dangerously close to the edge of, where normal, everyday human people are simply fodder for the rest of the planet's supernatural inhabitants. Evidently every major historical figure in the WoD has been a vampire, a werewolf, a mage....on and on. The system is built around these supernatural creatures, so normal people die waaaay easy, and have almost no way to fight these things.

I also have a problem with jut how powerful players can be with relative ease; granted, EVERY game system can be tweaked to the point where your character becomes almost invincible, but WoD seems to be more vulnerable to it than most. But I think I have gone into why I don't like systems with a huge gradient between weak and strong characters before, so I won't bore people with that again.

Some of WoD's source material is pretty cool, though. I definitely liked the flavor of 2nd Ed Vampire, but unfortunately, a lot of games do not keep this, either boiling into hack and slash silliness or overwrought angstifying, rather than gripping horror. I've also heard that the tone of the game tends to change every time new developers come online, which could get annoying.

Posted by: Atrox Sep 3 2003, 08:21 PM

What you describe is the reason I'll never run a Sabbat game. Camarilla Kindred I can at least remind that they want to keep their Humanity for a while. And my humans always had the ability to fight back to some degree. Of course, I remembered the advice WW gave in the Storyteller's Guide: Avoid making every celebrity a Vampire.
A full crossover game also makes it fairly easy to explain why humans remained their own masters . . .

The futility quotient, as Chris Kubasik called it, is another annoyance, but easily dealt with by a simple rule of adventure fiction: There's always hope. For the world, at least.

Getting a good horror mood isn't easy . . . keeping it up for session after session is something I admit I can't do. Plus, you absolutely need good players. The power level of characters can be pretty monstrous in and of itself, if you allow Elder Vamps as PCs. That doesn't really help the horror mood, though.

The other factor that annoys me are blatant inconsistencies between the game background and the mechanics.

Case in point: I do occasionally play a hideously powerful, now 4th Generation Ventrue. He was intentionally designed as a combat monster (also as a tragic hero, because even after 2000 years, he actually believes in the line the Blue Bloods feed the rest of the world). Just for laughs, and to see what would happen, the GM had 120 13th to 9th Gen Kindred ambush him.

And he slaughtered them all within 12 turns. Wasn't even scratched doing it.

And WW asks me to believe that some young Turks took out Antediluvians? wth stats at 10 across the board, and all the "usual" Disciplines? Yeah right, pull the other one.

Posted by: kevyn668 Sep 3 2003, 08:28 PM

@Black Isis: I'll agree you about the "every major figure has been a werewolf (or related to them) or Vampire". Its gets a little old but I think that's what the designers had in mind. To show that greatness in humans comes from the supernatural.

As for normal humans being too easy to kill, I think that's appropriate. If I'm a Werewolf or a Vampire I should have a pretty easy time dispatching some norms. Besides, its like old (1st/2nd Ed) D&D. I had this one Assassin that I had played for years (of Real Time) to get up to some ridiculous level, like 13 or 14, and I hadn't fought a human since 9th level. By that point, every one else in the group was such a munchkin we were fighting devils in the Hells.

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 3 2003, 08:35 PM

There goes the crossover-continuity. *g*

Mage makes the point, to point out really hard, that it's NOT like 'Mages and Technocrats run the world, invent new things and kill off the bad guys'.

Many of the greatest minds in Mage history had been mundanes/sleepers. Read the "Mage - Storytellers Handbook" for this. They stress it quite often.

Posted by: kevyn668 Sep 3 2003, 09:00 PM

don't have Mage. but I'll take your word for it.

Posted by: Black Isis Sep 3 2003, 09:10 PM

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 3 2003, 09:17 PM

Mage - Storyteller Handbook

p.40

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 3 2003, 09:20 PM

Posted by: Crusher Bob Sep 4 2003, 05:39 AM

Despite being set in generally the same 'world' the WoD games are not in the same world. Since they are all developed by different line developers, there will be inconsistencies in both the rules and the setting. In general, WoD games do not cross-over that well because the powers levels and motivations of the characters can be very hard to balance. If you are running a Wod games where 'other WoD critters' appear, then it is best to use the game you are actually running as 'the truth' with the other games as 'add ons'.

Of the WW games, I'd say that mage (2nd edition, not the crappy 3rd), vampire, and exalted are probably the best.

Posted by: Ronin Soul Sep 4 2003, 07:28 AM

Hunter is the most "Mundane fair". The Imbued aren't normal mundies but they were to start with. All you have to do to be a Hunter is to be in the right place (when a monster is around and when the Messangers are watching) and then act on the revelation that monsters exist in whatever way is most appropriate to your character. Viola. you character is know one of the Imbued.
Take Back the Night!

Inherit the Earth.

I tend to run Hunter games as horror. I mean, the Imbued are a bunch of relatively normal people with the will and strength of heart to react to the knowledge that the supernatural is real and not particularly friendly. Half the time is spent groping around trying to find the supernatural and then learning about it; is it a threat? how can we fight it?
Then the Hunters, if they do try to fight it are often scared stiff because the average monster will chew a Hunter to pieces with little effort. The only strengths the Imbued have are numbers, their innate immunities as members of the Chosen and their Edges, which can actually be pretty sweet. But all the same the attrition in a combat heavy Hunter game is high. THese are mortals trying to fight monsters after all, of course a lot of them will die.
A lot of the horror in Hunter comes from the characters themselves. They're not really Hunters; as Carepenter says they're really "Sheep with shotguns", and that is apt. Hunters are terrified that the monsters will kill them, terrified that the monsters will use the authorities (that they usually control) to ruin their lives. Hell, a lot of Hunters are scared of themselves.
Take Waywards. These guys are made psychopathic when they imbue. The wayward character in our group once drove a car at about 60 miles per hour into a crowded cafe to kill one mage. This scared not only the other characters but the Wayward character as well (what have I become? sort of thing). By the same token the Defender character in our group has become a full blown alcoholic just to cope with the life he is now thrust into.
Everyday humans are simply not designed to hunt monsters, and yet they have too, because no one else will.
And that is the rub.

A lot of WOD games are based around identity - Hunter and Vampire in particular. What has the character become? Can they hold onto their old lives? Their old friends? Their old personalities? Can they live with themselves? More than one Hunter has committed suicide because they simply cannot cope.
And that is horror gaming at its finest.
And horror gaming is what the WOD is all about.

(I get the impression your not really interested in Exalted. If you re just say so and I'll tell you all about it )

Posted by: HonorableMan Sep 4 2003, 09:09 AM

I only played and mastered Vampire Werewolf and Mage.
Werewolf is the most teamplay oriented of the games, you can have several specialists in your pack and play mission after mission. Vampire is in the middle ground, because your superiours like clan elders, princes, sheriffs, justiciars etc can force you to become a functioning coterie (team). The abilities are even more widespread then with werewolves. Mage is a bunch of loners working for a common goal from time to time. Every mage looks for ascension in his own private way that can differ a lot from colleagues in his own tradition, even more for other traditions. Prepare to have a lot of downtime gaming in single sessions.

What my coterie does, example from our Vampire Paris campaign:
The coterie consists of an Assamite, a Brujah, a Giovanni and a Nosferatu.
The Assamite is spending a lot of his time gathering blood, via trading favors and services, learning better french. He is one of two assamites within 400 kilometres and thus often called upon by his elders and plans his assassinations carefully, so he does a lot of spying, legwork and preparing. He aspires to become a better generation within the next two years.
The Brujah works as a strongman for the sheriff, parties a lot with his sire and is a apprentice to the assamite in terms of break and entry as well as stealth. He likes to decorate his home with stolen goods like a billiard table, several arcade consoles and expensive hifi stuff. Besides he has a shady dojo for savate and boxing, working in league with to of his ghouls, of which one is his bodyguard as well. From time to time he fights illegal martial arts duells, sometimes to the death and makes sidebets, while being carefull that his supernatural side doesnt show. His longterm goal is to beome a mayor player in the underworld, setting up his own protection rackets, prostitution ring and thugs for hire.
The Giovanni is big cheese in the nightclub scene, with two of the most sucessfull clubs, interests in various others. He has set up a vampire only hotel with a lot of comfort and security and has his hands in most of he hospital owned blood banks, which helps him to serve special drinks for the vampires who visit his clubs. His ties to his elder who has several funeral enterprises provide him with enough corpses for his zombie experiments and means of disposing of corpses. He currently influences/dominates the Brujah to take the illegal fights to one of his locations in order to get aditional income from tapings etc. He also seeks a way to become clan elder.
The Nosferatu is doing a lot of clanwork. She is system administrator for the french section of the Nosferatu-Web, a secret computer network for spreading information within the clan. She does a lot of research in mathematics and computertechnology, is a cineast and currently teaching a fellow Nosferatu advanced Obfuscate, to free him from his decades long solitude and have him visit the upper world again. She makes a lot of money via hacking and gains a lot of information on other supernaturals and is the only one with ties to mages. What she is up to in the future remains a well hidden secret.

As a coterie we are most often involved with missions which provide better security to the camarilla, seeking out Sabbath packs, working out an unstable truce with the werewolves via extortion and exploring ruins in search of a particular artifact.

Posted by: HonorableMan Sep 4 2003, 09:12 AM

On the subject of physically harmless mortals: One of the most feared weapons of our vampires were dominated human suicide bombers. Very deadly tools for a puppet master without a bit of conscience.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Sep 4 2003, 12:53 PM

Black isis- the challenge in VtM is that while humans are little more than snack-packs (that's why it's called World of Darkness) your average vamp is relatively even in power so you have to be more into role playing. as for mortals, sure you can brush them aside, but if involved in a plot they are the tools of someone and that person might notice if their tool is missing, better to be subtle.

As for Werewolf, I think most games are spent picking fleas off of each other.

Posted by: Black Isis Sep 4 2003, 02:18 PM

Well, the problem I have is, if Vampires/Werewolves/Mages are so absurdly much more powerful than a normal person, why the hell aren't they running EVERYTHING IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. Why bother with the Masquerade if humans are no threat? It might be called "World of Darkness" but for the PCs, it's not all that dark, considering that you are the most powerful creatures on the face of the planet, can essentially have infinite wealth and status at your whim (as long as you stay out of the way of your betters) and there's nothing that can pose any sort of threat to you other than another equally insanely powerful being.

I like games where sure, one on one, you may be a total badass -- but go up against 5 or 6 mooks like that and you are going to be in trouble in short order. If the entire vampire "community" could be slaughtered if the humans realized they existed and the threat they posed, THEN there would be a reason for maintaining the Masquerade. A moderate powerful vampire in WoD seems to have no trouble turning dozens of mundanes into so much hamburger or zombified slaves or some other non-dangerous form in no time.

I like being able to challenge players with opposition that is logical and not insanely powerful -- in my Shadowrun games, not every security guard has Wired Reflexes and Muscle Augmentation, and doesn't carry around an Ares Alpha Combat Gun. But players are still careful around them, because even a mundane with a shotgun and moderate skill can really ruin your day.

Posted by: Adam Sep 4 2003, 02:31 PM

Posted by: Raccoon Avatar Sep 4 2003, 02:51 PM

Posted by: SeekerJST Sep 4 2003, 03:27 PM

First. For your information, lemmings do not suicide over cliffs. That's an urban myth.

Second, introspection is really the major theme of Vampire and Mage, where the characters where either once ordinary humans and now aren't, or the introspection is part of the journey of discovery and enlightment.

Finally, We "humans" aren't the only ones who need to get the fucking hell over ourselves. Brother.

Posted by: Raccoon Avatar Sep 4 2003, 03:41 PM

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 4 2003, 03:58 PM

@Black Isis
re: Why not take over the world?

Because it's the same problem as with SR Mages.

Although players make it seem like you can't throw a stone without hitting a Werewolf/Vampire/Mage/Demon/Sorcerer/Corax/Ghoul/Gargoyle/whatever, they're actually pretty rare.

And humans have sheer number and modern technology. Sure, a few hundred thousand would bite the dust, but in the end, any act of open world-domination would result in the end of the 'dominatig' group.

Also, Camarilla vs. Sabbat vs. Anarchs / Traditions vs. Technocracy vs. Crafts / Werewolves vs. Waever / Quiejin vs. Beastcourts vs. Demon Hunters . . . First they would have to clean up their own area of expertise to even try a grasp at open power-mongering.

In the DarkAges Mages had towers and great kingdoms. Vampires throned as Lords and held humans as slaves, only to live by their whim.
Everything was pretty fucked up.

Then the Order of reason and some other peeps' showed the mundane humans how to fight against this (plus, the dominating supernaturals grew lazy). Renneisance. Industrialisation. Modern World.

Masquerade. *shrugs*

Posted by: vitus979 Sep 4 2003, 04:52 PM

Posted by: Atrox Sep 4 2003, 05:04 PM

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 4 2003, 05:15 PM

Posted by: Ronin Soul Sep 5 2003, 07:10 AM

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Sep 5 2003, 07:20 AM

The world of Darkness is very dark and gloomy, that's it's overshadowing theme. The specifics of it however get kinda confusing.

Depending on what game you are playing, they each tell a different version of history. I have found that the best approach is to focus on whatever slice you have chosen for yourself.

Example: According to Vampires, all the powerful people in history were pretty much vampires or controlled by vampires. According to the mages, every powerful person in history was either a mage or controlled by mages. Werewolves pretty much well do their own thing so they don't really count.

The point is that there are MANY different versions about who controls what and you should probably slant the "truth" to whatever is more convenient for you.

For instant, concerning the president of the USA, leader of the free world's most powerful nation... so who's pulling HIS strings?!?

1) Mages: The Technocrats. According to the way Mage is played out, it's fairly obvious that the technocrats are winning the ascension war, I mean let's face it, technology is everywhere (it's their magic) and in fact, their paradigm is SO ingrained into the popular consciousness (belief is power in mage) that the technology is useable even by mundanes (your comp, tv, phone...blah blah blah)
The bastards are everywhere and all pervasive.

2) Vampires: According to vampires, the Technocrats really aren't controlling that much since vampires control everything. Their jihad has been affecting this world since, well, since forever.

So who's right? You decide. In our mage campaign, the Technocrats control the government and any vampire who tries to but in will soon discover that mages are nice and crunchy if you get the jump on them but if they are miles away and suddenly decide they want you dead or whatever, wave bye bye to the vampire.

In our vampires campaign, there are bloodbound ghouls in office left right and center, all being used as pawns in the continuing jihad.

the two are kind of mutually exclusive.

Also, the cannon of White Wolf, on top of being erratic, sometimes (in later books) wanders off into silly land in certain cases. Take from the cannon what you wish, and leave the rest, I think the whole Mage/Vampire issue illustrates the inability to use everything as cannon, further emphazising that you really need to dive into the wealth of diverging truths and forge your own.

All in all, I find that the world is rich and ripe for excellent stories. The world picture changes vastly from game to game and I have a personal beef with the combat system which I find kinda flat. It has all it needs to be a great game, in the hands of a good GM.

Hope I helped.

Sunday.

Posted by: HonorableMan Sep 5 2003, 10:17 AM

In addition, the several supernaturals have some kind of truce not to take the meddling too far. Werewolfs would not like to see everything dominated by Vampires, Mages wouldnt have it that Wraith possess political key figures etc. Iirc the early WoD Hitler was a puppet for several different supernaturals, which ultimately drove him insane, uncontrollable and far worse than anyone had intended. The resulting shock brought on the relative abstinence from ruling via puppets.

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 5 2003, 02:22 PM

Emm...

Ever read 'Project EOS'?
There ARE mortals out there who aren't controlled by anyone and who know 'something is out there'.

Some FBI, USSS and CIA peeps watching camera-footage which shows if someone in the congress has a slight shadow over him, which means that he's a puppet of 'the 7 clans'. (That's what they know so far. There are 7 vampiric clans.)

And they aren't Technocrats either. They're jst mundanes with an attitude.

Book's pretty old, though. Early years of 2nd ed. if I've got my dates right... *ponders*

Posted by: Hot Wheels Sep 5 2003, 03:03 PM

7 clans? Boy, are they in for a surprise when the others come out of the woodwork-or start trying to ghoul the apporiate congressional staff members.

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 5 2003, 04:58 PM

Not like this. *g*
It's just: "Hey, he's kinda' fuzzy. Damn... Not human."

Posted by: Atrox Sep 5 2003, 05:10 PM

You wouldn't happen to mean Project Twilight (ISBN 1-56504-310-3), one of their offerings during the Year of the Hunter? Where they describe what various shadowy US government agencies know about the supernaturals?

Chummer, you want paranoia, play a Hunters campaign with characters from FBI's Special Affairs Department and the NSA.

Posted by: Icepick Sep 7 2003, 05:27 AM

Let's see here, a very opinionated, and somewhat possibly factual write up about each game. There are some facts in each one.

Vampire:The Masquerade:White Wolf's first game in their World of Darkness series. This game is based around the Curse of Cain. It was put on by God for killing his brother Abel. It takes several generations of vampires later, as well as several millennia later.

Werewolf:The Apocalypse:White Wolf's second game. This one is about the feeling of hopelessness and utter horror of humanity, as the end of the world draws nigh, and humans destroy their planet. Despite the fact that they seem that way, not all werewolves are killing machines.

Mage:The ascension:White wolf's third, and IMHO this is my favorite game. This game is based around the possibilities of reality, rather than reality itself. It's actually based around the idea of Hope, rather than a depressing idea, like all of the other games, including Changeling, and Wraith, which are OOP, and will not be discussed.

Hunter:The reckoning:Something happened in Bangladesh. Something big. Nobody knows what it was, but because of it, people started spotting supernaturals that have been in charge of the world for ages. Hiding amongst us, fighting, amongst us, and using us when they can. Well, enough's enough. Time to fight back, for humanity.

Demon:The Fallen: Picture this. There was a war, long before humanity took a hold of everything. When the feel of the creator was everywhere. Several angels revolted at the creator's orders, and they lost. They were supposed to be imprisoned until the end of time, but... something happened. Something big. In 1999, when the incident in Bangladesh occurred, it broke the barrier to hell, and released us. We now take humans who have, for some reason, lost their soul. We take over from there.

Not mentioned, or barely mentioned...Kindred of the East, Mummy:The resurrection, Changeling:The Dreaming, Wraith:The Oblivion, Orpheus, and the Dark ages books.

Posted by: Darth Phylos Sep 7 2003, 05:29 AM

And Wild West Werewolf...

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 7 2003, 09:56 AM

Why roll eyes?

It's like "Sorceres Crusade" for Mage. (Gettin the book on monday.
Happy happy, joy joy! *grins*)

And it fits rather nicely with the native american feel. (Although it's
from the time, where White Wolf could have done their research
somewhat more... Thouroughtly. And although it got somewhat
better, they still can't stand up against SJGames when it comes to this.)

Posted by: Atrox Sep 7 2003, 09:21 PM

Agreed. Shame they only ever brought out three of the five original ST games for GURPS.

Posted by: Icepick Sep 14 2003, 08:35 PM

Posted by: Atrox Sep 14 2003, 09:44 PM

I'd heard it was a clash of personalities between Rein-Hagen and Steve Jackson, but you're right, the GURPS rules are better. The sourcebooks are better written, too. Much clearer and more straightforward.

WW often overdoes the in-game flavour to the detriment of clarity as far as rules are concerned. GURPS authors don't seem to have that problem.

Although it's fairly straightforward to convert ST games to the Cyberpunk pattern, i. e. Attribute+Skill+D10 to beat a target number.
Improves the flow of the game considerably.

Posted by: Icepick Sep 14 2003, 11:22 PM

The basic rules aren't that hard. Attribute+Ability(which is stat+skill) vs TN(Ususally 6.) More success is better. As usual, 1's are bad.(Worse than shadowrun.)

I've also noticed that some of the special rules for the supernauturals are a bit complex, but hey, I figured some of them out at least.

Posted by: NightWind Sep 15 2003, 01:14 AM

Hi guys, NightWind here.

I started playing White Wolf games before I got into Shadowrun. I dunno. For a person starting out in the Gaming world, I think the Werewolf and Vampire basic rules are easy to follow.

However, I got a little miffed at White Wolf when they suddenly took my favorite Werewolf Tribe and stuffed them in a different categroy. It totally ruined my character on one Mush. I had had that character for several years. I fought to get a Stargazer Theurge on the Mush. I was the only Theurge there and when they shifted the tribe over to a different set of rules that the Mush diddnt use.

After 3 years of playing the character, building it up with experience.. I'm suddenly told that I either have to go Ronin or make a new character with Beginner stats. I told them to *bleep* off! Gods that made me mad.

However, White Wolf does have some merits when it comes to comparing it with Shadowrun. They both are dark and oftentimes violent. Where Shadowrun has Cybernetics and Magic, Vampires and Werewolves have Gifts and Powers. It's kind of interesting.

On a side note, there IS a WOD *World of Darkness* Mush out in the net called Dark Metal. It has successfully combined White Wolf gaming with the Cyberpunk/Shadowrun Cybernetics. It's kind of interesting.

I dunno, I'm rambling again. hehehe I 'll just go over in the corner now and make my drones do strange things to the universe.

NightWind.

Posted by: Finbar Sep 15 2003, 08:35 AM

I've played WoD for 8 years now, played Changeling for 7 of those years (only online unfortunately as I cant find a game in Sydney).
Changeling is interesting because while it's seen as just a Pretty Faerie game by some people, and the full colour series of books didnt help that, it can be such a dark and nasty game.
People forget the mecurial nature of the fae and why they were called the Goode Folk.
Throw in that you were once immortal, but are now reduced to hiding in a human body, forever cast out from your true home.
Then throw in that by mundane standards, the average person doesnt believe in you, and sees you as insane. Now throw in that your own allies might betray you and kill you, the nobility are selfish gits who see you are property, and your life just got more interesting.

Themes: Banality and it's weight as it crushes your soul. The nightmares that people dream, and so on.

Posted by: Hot Wheels Sep 15 2003, 04:20 PM

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 15 2003, 04:26 PM

No one.
I repeat: No one.

Has to change their characters because of this. The stargazers left. Right. Because the beast courts provided more security and caring and philosophical equalities than the Werewolf-Nation.

But it was _clearly stated_ that there were Stargazers who stayed with their packs.

Posted by: NightWind Sep 15 2003, 05:34 PM

Yeah, Sarge. Clearly stated in the books.

But the anal retentive Staff on the Mush had other ideas. Rather than cause a stink, I just left a note to have em nuke the character and I left the Mush.

I like the STargazers because they're the philosophical types. Yes, I like the Garou Kung Fu that is exclusively theirs, but I hardly used it. Instead, I put myself into getting creative with Gifts that could help the Pack and Caern.

:snickers: I remember my first task as Theurge for the group. It was to create a Rite that no one else knew that would h elp the Caern.

MUAHAHAHA!!! Oh boy did I do it. Do you know how hard it is to keep a pack of Garou from disturbing an area covered by hte Rite of Feng Shui? But it worked. Ahhh.. those were the days.

Too bad I cant roll up a character like that to play for Shadowrun.

NightWind

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 15 2003, 05:44 PM

Yeah, I heard that some Mush'ers are pretty. . . Anal about such stuff.

I know some RL-Gm's who're like that, too. *snorts* ("Hey, in this book it says, that..." - "But... We're playing like this for years!" - "But the book says..." *argh*)

I'm sorry for you.

Posted by: Talondel Sep 15 2003, 07:50 PM

Well, one of the problems with on line play compared to a sit-down game is that you aren't friends with everyone, to put it a little bluntly. In a game at home you know everyone (or will soon), and -- more importantly -- there's a very very clear-cut division between "player" and "GM." You know the GM, the GM knows you, and you know who the GM is. The GM knows how his people play, he knows what they like and want and expect and he's willing to make house rulings to help with that. The players know the GM, they can approach him about house rules they might want or think are necessary, they can complain directly and easily when some silly rule rears its ugly head, and things can get changed. One GM, who can modify his game as he sees fit.

On line, you don't have that and can't do that. On line games are a lot more open, most of the time -- especially something like a MUSH or talker. In a play-by-post or play-by-email you do tend to get back to a "set" GM, a single person who can make rulings and house rules and calls as situations arise. On a talker or a more open-forum style game (where you roam from room to room like a MUD or something, interacting and conflicting primarily with other characters), a GM doesn't really...exist. You're dealing with ten or fifty or a hundred players, sometimes, who are on sporadically or fanatically, who are mostly fighting and backstabbing and sweet talking one another, who spend their time battling other player characters and stopping their plots and schemes... and the GMs that are there aren't really "Game Masters" so much as they're referrees. Most games have a "GM's Discrection" clause about everything, from combat modifiers to social situation statistics to stealth and perception rules. When it's two players trying to go at one another (and it almost always is, on a MUSH/Talker/Whatever), the GM has a lot less leeway. It looks like he's playing sides, picking favorites, screwing someone. He has to act as impartially as possible, and stick as closely to the books as possible -- so it's clear to whoever's about to lose this dice-rolling match that it's not his fault the Hunters snuck into the haven, or the Mage is leeching Quintessence from the Caern while the Garou aren't there, or whatever.

So they're locked into what's "canon," and that's that. If the book says that most of _______________ (Stargazers/Ravnos/Abominations) are ______________ (gone/dead/unplayable), then the GM can't let one person play a ______________ (Stargazer/Ravnos/Abomination) unless he let everyone play one. And if everyone was playing one, he's just ignored the most recent supplement.

It's one of the biggest problems and issues with on-line play. A lot of the optional rules that might make something really cool have to be ignored, a lot of the potentials for RP have to get bypassed, etc, etc, etc. Because unless a GM turns himself into a straight-and-narrow follower of canon, people bitch and moan and stop playing there, because he's "out to get them" or "doing favors" for someone else, etc, etc.

I've played my share of White Wolf games, and I've played my share of them on-line. Comparing it to a sit-down game is like holding up an apple next to an orange -- and it's almost always the players' faults, not the GM. They make the GM make the stupid calls, because if he's not "anal" people get pissed off and the Talker/MUSH dies.

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 15 2003, 07:59 PM

*bows to apologize*

Sorry didn't want to insult with this.
And it makes perfect sense for online gaming. But the last person I talked with about this, was kinda... Aggresive and 'houlier than thou'. "We stick to canon, no stupid house-rules disruptuing our game. If you want to screw around with this, frag off, munchkin."

You just proved to be the exact opposite. Thanks.

. . .

What still irks me, are Gamemasters, who only stick to the books and don't allow any leeway in story and background, even if the books mention exeptions and sometimes even encourage them. (the greatest is the "Golden Rule" in most Storyteller system games, but which is also prevelant in nearly any other game. But enough GM's try to ignore it, as good as they can. *grrr*)

Posted by: Atrox Sep 15 2003, 08:21 PM

Part of that is keeping the PCs balanced.

Sure, exceptions exist. Oddly enough, many result in more powerful characters, and are often desired by a particular species of players. I'm not suggesting that is why you'd do it, Sarge, but it makes a lot of GMs wary of going against canon. Including me.

I usually allow deviations from canon only if there's a good IC explanation. Come up with one, and you're set. Of course, you'll also have to live with the consequences.
If some Vamp wants a Garou g/f (which has happened), the reason needs to be a real good one, and may require a Merit (True Love, in this case, but not at +1). While you're picking this, jot down Dark Secret, no points gained, because if your Kindred "friends" find out, there might be a bit of a problem.

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 15 2003, 08:24 PM

Yeah, that problem is there.
But the scary stuff with these guys (So, I admit, they're four of my colleagues. *grr*) is, that they even act stupid, if I, as a GM, give them mor freedom.

These are the same people who didn't want to try Mage and Fading Suns, because the games were 'too different.' The heck?!

Posted by: Atrox Sep 15 2003, 08:54 PM

Define "stupid", Sarge.

One of the better VtM games I've played, the GM basically told us to go wild. No points, no limits, no nothing (OK, so they all had to be Camarilla chars, as there was exactly zero on the Sabbat). Just create a character (story), then make up stats that fit. Game balance was notably absent, as might be expected. But even the one player who created a baseline 1st Ed. starting character (and a Caitiff to boot) loved it. And this in a group where the average generation was 7th.

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 15 2003, 09:05 PM

'Stupid' like:
"Hey, are we allowed to declere attacks like that? Shouldn't we roll something?" - "No... If you can describe your attack, we're just going on with the story." - "*thinks*. . . *rolls dice* I hit him." *argh*

They just cling to every ruleset and don't want to let go of it. Even if it hinders the story and flow of events.

It drives me nuts.

The other group I'm a regular player with (GURPS, go figure. *?*), takes the other approach. Only use the rules, if you need something totally impartial. Every other time... Tell and have fun! I just like it like this.

Posted by: Atrox Sep 15 2003, 09:21 PM

So do I. Helps a lot if your group understands combat a bit, makes for fewer dice rolls. I've also reduced fights to a single die roll, just to see who wins. Details to be sorted out by narrative.

Posted by: Icepick Sep 15 2003, 11:28 PM

Posted by: NightWind Sep 16 2003, 02:22 AM

Ahh, but I did get my piece of revenge in a round about way. When they made me quit my Stargazer, they were cutting their own throats. I was the only Theurge on the Grid as well as being the only Stargazer.

Guess what? When the High Level Garou up and left. No one knew the Gifts or Rites to keep things going. No one to intercede with the Spirits for help.

Oh, I had the choice of going Ronin. But that is the last thing I wanted to do. *I* had done nothing wrong in the game to get the stigmata of Ronin. Therefore it was insulting to me as a player to be told I had to either go Ronin or Nuke the char.

I found out later, when I went on as a Guest and played stupid, that most of the Caern quit the game over that fiasco because they couldnt DO anything spiritually. And at least half of them had kept in touch via E-Mails. I dont think the game ever recovered from that many Garou leaving all at once.

NightWind

Posted by: Ronin Soul Sep 16 2003, 01:25 PM

A little tangent, but somewhat connected to NightWind's last post; the only Werewolf character I've really wanted to use was a Shadow Lords Ronin who was *not* a manipulative, amoral and vindictive control freak. Pity that game never got running...

Oh yeah, and has anyone else seen who the Wayward character is in the new PS2 game? Joshua Matthews, AKA God45. I liked that... (of course, only Hunter players will understand why, but I thought I'd raise the point).
The Hunter computer game did raise an interesting thought though. It is obscenely easy to change the WOD games to suit almost any play style. I mean, take Underworld (after all, White Wolf is trying to ), after reading the plot ideas I thought; a high action Vampire game ala movies like The Killer or Romeo Must Die - lots of over the top action, big guns and the vampiric abilities that make them so great in the first place... It could be done easily (especially once you use Exalted rules such as standardised difficulties and Extras rules).

Hunter was another game that struck me as a good example of it. In the computer game you had the Hunters stepping off a subway train into a town literally under siege by the creatures of the night. It has a certain Western feel and would really serve as a basis of a campaign where the angst and terror of a Hunter's life is replaced by taking the fight to the monsters with very little consequence (except some cool explosions). Resident Evil (particularly Nemesis) is an example of the sort of thing I'm thinking about. Just add ghosts and shadowy vampiric manipulators and you could have a really high action and really fun Hunter campaign. That could work (trust me, I've run a couple of adventures along those lines). Hell, you almost have canon precedent with New Dijon (only real Hunter players will understand *that* ).

Is it against the feeling of the White Wolf games? Well, that's an opinion thing. I think that as long as you have fun that doesn't really matter. Purists would disagree.

My rambling ends now...

Posted by: Hot Wheels Sep 16 2003, 01:34 PM

I agree, most of the WW games seem to be light on mechanics and more characters driven-unlike the antithesis which are the 20d game systems.
You can do VtM as anything from a soap opera to soft core porn to occult thriller to a shoot 'em up.

Posted by: U-Boat Sep 24 2003, 03:35 AM

Greetings all,

I've played White Wolf games for about 7 or 8 years and I've enjoyed them very much. The two games I know most about are Vampire and Mage.

Vampire is a very political game, both within the Camarilla and Sabbat. The differences between the two is that the Camarilla created the Masquerade and hides within humanity, whereas Sabbat don't feel the need to bemoan their lost humanity so take great pleasure in revelling in their vampiric nature. The one problem with vampires is that because they have non-mortal life spans, they can't have mortal lives. The problem with that is, everyone needs resources to sustain their existence. So the grab is on, for money, property, weapons, retainers, status, anything. It's not a case of whoever dies with the most toys wins, it's who ever has the most toys continues his existence. And for those who asked "If vampires are so powerful, how come they aren't running the world?", the answer is "Because of what happened in the dark ages". During the dark ages, there was no masquerade, there was no hiding from the humans. The vampires of old strode the darkened streets as lords and princes, to whom humanity were little better than underlings. Then came the Inquisition, when the humans brought fire and stake to the vampires and ages old elders found themselves throwing their assets at the inquisitors in an effort to keep themselves from the Inquisition

Mage, for want of a better term, is a wondrous game. The mages themselves are capable of metaphysical feats through their relation with their awakened avatar (soul). The latest edition of Mage sees the end of the Ascension War. The Technocracy won, but it was a hollow victory. Due to the propaganda the Technocracy spread far and wide, the stasis they wanted so much has come back to bite them in the arse. People now don't believe in magic, but they have a harder time accepting some of the new "advances" the Technocracy is trying to achieve, such as stem cell research and genetic engineering.

I'm currently running a Mage LARP in Sydney and the game has seen quite a number of interesting moments, especially with the mages who have a flair for the dramatic. As such, the game itself can become a series of missions, especially for the Technocracy. Funny thing is, I've looked at some of the cyber enhancements in the book and I've been SO tempted at times to just go looking through Man & Machine. I've also had people who have never played Mage arrive to play NPCs and one asked if he could play a Technocrat on a permanent basis. I must admit, the Technocracy get the best toys.

As such, I like running Mage, because it's a great game and I believe has lots of potential, for any kind of story type.

U-Boat
"It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you"

Posted by: Icepick Oct 1 2003, 09:46 PM

Actually, some of the newer twists suggest a return to the status quo. The ascension war is back on, just with newer tricks, and more of a tradition as a whole kind of order than before.

Read Manefesto:Transmissions From the Rogue Council to find out what I'm talking about.

Posted by: White Knight Oct 2 2003, 07:08 AM

U-Boat: Well, the Technocracy have always been the real good guys in the World of Darkness. Or as close as the WoD gets to good guys anyway.

Icepick:

Posted by: Icepick Oct 4 2003, 04:14 AM

Posted by: Finbar Oct 4 2003, 07:23 AM

I beleive thats 10 Unsoakable agg a round.

you got more than 10HL?
no? your dead.

Posted by: Atrox Oct 4 2003, 11:55 AM

What if you have Fortitude 10?

Posted by: The_Sarge Oct 4 2003, 11:59 AM

Err... Then you're some millenia-old über-vampire.
There should be some perks with immortality. *g*

Posted by: Icepick Oct 5 2003, 09:08 PM

Well, anyways, there's always the Immunity merit.

Posted by: Tyrrell Oct 24 2003, 08:33 PM

because there is only one post on it in this whole four page thread and because it is actually selling as well as vampire over the last few months I'm going to write about exalted.

Exalted is in some ways the opposite of the World of Darkness games. The characters have the ability within them to do darn near anything. They can take over the most powerful empire in all of creation or storm into heaven and use their unequalled bureaucracy skills to control the celestial order. The support books are specifically written to say how things are rather than how a set of characters within the setting think that they are. The rules and setting were designed for crossover play from the very beginning.

The rules for exalted give characters bonus dice depending upon how cool the action that the character takes is. The combat system tries real hard and in my opinion succeeds in making most combat scenes (an the game is set up for a good deal of combat) be wuxia-style over the top action craziness. Everything combat seems like something out of crouching tiger hidden dragon played in fast forward. The characters have large collections of mystical kung fu mastery schticks that combine together to give combat between exalteds an intricacy reminiscent of CCG's.

The die system is similar to WoD and shadowrun (roll a die pool count the number of successes) but rather than having a floating target number, difficulty is determined by how many successes are needed.

The setting is wide open. The world is flat and while it is smaller than earth it has more dry land area. The edges of the world fade off into chaos where the incomprhesible fae live. "Beneith" the world there is an underworld where ghosts try to scrape by and the dead souls of those primordial creators of the universe who fell in an ancient war plot to destroy everything in order to end their own undead existence. "Above" creation is the conenent sized city of Yu shan inhabited entirly by gods who take part in a complex and corrupt bureaucracy that controls all of creation. The setting is made for big games where characters accomplish big things.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 24 2003, 09:41 PM

When I played Exalted heavily, it was before the other types of exalted hit the shelves and it was really hard to put up decent opposition to the Solars. I imagine that now it's not too hard to have a decent game going on. I do dearly love the game and I'll be the first to admit that I'm a stunt dice whore when given the chance

The hardest part about exalted is realizing exactly how powerful your characters are. At game start, many Solar exalted could take out small armies of normal humans, and by the time they hit their first century, they're nearly unstoppable. The only thing that can scratch them are other types of Exalted and really determined armies of mortals. I have a small pile of books I've never even read through, including Games of Divinity which I read maybe three pages of before I got distracted with other things

Posted by: bwdemon Nov 1 2003, 10:56 PM

I've played/GM'd/demo'd WoD games since 1996. Here are my thoughts...

Pros: Setting, character-driven gaming, metaplot

Cons: Game mechanics, imbalance, metaplot, dead game

The metaplot has had ups and downs, though it is on a major upswing now with the pending end of WoD as we know it.

The single biggest knock against them is that they are dying. The game setting is being cashed in and a new game will come out of it all. This doesn't affect the historic settings at all (well, it may...), but it makes purchase of current products (especially for someone just getting into the game) a poor economic choice.

If you're looking at getting into the line, wait it out. The new core rules and splats will be out in a year or two. If you can wait until then to buy into WoD, you'll avoid getting stuck with dead product.

Posted by: vitus979 Nov 14 2003, 06:00 PM

Posted by: Tiralee Dec 4 2003, 06:06 AM

Wft is a Gaki?

Don't play White Wolf (The "Vampire" game sort of put me off, although I did like the voice actors... ) and don't really have the money-patience to go forth and splurge again, just wanted the definition, and/or how a Hungry-Ghost fitted into the "World of Darkness"TM universe.

Or are they munchkins? I know Gaki is similiar in everyday use as "imp" to describe a naughty youngster.

Anyhoo,

l.

Posted by: Ancient History Dec 4 2003, 01:58 PM

A Gaki is a cannibalistic proto-Kinjin (read: oriental vampire). Think Bruce Lee from the crow crossed with Gollum from the LOTR movies crossed with the unholy appetite for living flesh found in zombie flicks.

Posted by: Enkeli Dec 4 2003, 04:03 PM

Posted by: Ancient History Dec 4 2003, 04:04 PM

Right, right, my bad. Been a while.

Posted by: Enkeli Dec 4 2003, 04:05 PM

It can happen to the best of us.