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Posted by: JongWK Sep 3 2003, 03:50 PM

One of the groups I'm GMing recently got their hands on d20 Modern and BESM (Big Eyes Small Mouth, anime rpg). After reading both of them (and liking them much more than standard D&D), I started planning to GM a couple short campaigns, beginning with d20 Modern.

I first came up with a X Files-style conspiratorial plot with psionics and maybe some occultism (Illithids as agents of Chtulhu, go figure). Nice, but not quite enough to convince the entire group.

Then I read BESM once again, specifically the "Atlantis Rising" campaign idea. Basically, the BESM idea is that a battle between a destroyer and a submarine frees ancient beings when a dept charge misses its target. These guys start rebuilding the old Atlantis Empire and attack coastal targets, etc (something like XCOM Terror from the Deep, I guess). Mankind has to unite to face them, but the Nazis make an unholy pact with them. Players are to stop the bad guys until the Allies develop the Manhattan Project (well, this IS Anime, it has to go with a Bang! )

So far, so good.

And then something made click! inside me. I started remembering Wolfenstein 3D (Nazi zombies, gotta love it!), the Indy Jones movies, Casablanca, plenty of WW2 movies, some Argentinean and US comics about alternate timelines (like "1946", where WW2 still rages on and "Zeit Projekt", where Martin Bormann escapes to a parallel dimension taking with him the nuclear technology. Net result: Australia becomes leader of the Free World after the UK and the US east coast are turned to dust and the Aussies develop their own bombs). Heck, I even remembered the Rocketeer, Brendan Fraser's Mummy and Heavy Metal 1

I also looked at my family's collection of WW2 books. Plenty of SpecOps, intrigue, Maquis, tech data on vehicles, biographies, etc.

"Hell, why not? It would give me space for everything in this book!" (except for the Urban Arcana section, which I despise).

I hope you guys can give me your opinions and ideas, since I haven't decided yet on several issues:

-No "Shadow" dimension. The concept utterly sucks.

-It's 194X: Certainly after Itally becomes a battleground but I'm not sure about France, did Normandy happen or is it still a secret plan?

-I happen to like the destroyer-sumarine idea, but I'm considering other ideas to explain the presence of the Ancient Ones. Perhaps they were behind the Nazis all the time, or one of those "Nazi archaelogical teams" found them. Maybe Hitler's mania for occultism finally paid off.

-Psionics & Moreaus: Definitely yes to both.

From the KGB's Paranormal Division to Hoover's FBI agents trying to figure out if that card is an ace or a six or the US Army looking for a Captain America). The Nazi owuld have the illithids and their thralls. Maybe they also use Puppeteers?

I like the Moreaus' concept. Nazi experiments to get perfect aryan soldiers or on war prisoners to obtain cannon fodder. Soviet Bear Cosacks. Even a mystical explanation is possible (like an Egyptian cat-like lady or a jungle spirit in the Pacific, hunting soldiers).

-Magic: I'd use Occultist and Shadow Slayer. Both would come from groups with extensive knowledge of the Ancient Ones (Lovecraft's Circle, The Roman Catholic Church, a Jewish Rabbi who needs to be rescued from a concentration camp).

-Monsters: Plenty of them. Nazi/Ancient experiments to get powerful servants is just one idea. Oh, most people wouldn't know about this. The governments keep it as a secret.

-Secret projects: Ditto. From the Habakkuk ice-carrier, to the V3 in Peenemunde("yeah, you'll have to open the silo's doors so that the Flying Fortress can hit it").

-Character classes: Just about everything is possible (in d20 Modern profesion is a different thing). Even Personalities (plenty of Hollywood and sport stars served in their Armed Forces).

-The PCs: Not sure if I should make them a team working for the OSS (later known as CIA), make them characters in a neutral/occupied city (Casablanca style, which also allows for more varied options), or have them discover the truth the ugly way (like FBI agents and locals discovering the truth), or a group of mavericks working for a special division under united Allied authority (brits, yanks, ruskies, anzacs, italians, frenchies).

-The plot: It depends on what do they want to play. I'm certainly planning to have them rescue Oppenheimer at some point, before Nazi agents and their Illithid masters extract from him the A-Bomb blueprints or before General Groves tags him as "expendable". And of course, SOMEBODY will have to deliver Fat Man right under Chtulhu's nose (oh, but what a way to go... )


Comments?

Posted by: Raccoon Avatar Sep 3 2003, 03:56 PM

I officially declare I have "no views or opinions regarding any D20 product or rules system". This is due to certain complications recently...which are not important at this time (and are not to be discussed in this thread).

Posted by: JongWK Sep 3 2003, 03:56 PM

Doh, forgot to ask:

What about firearms and armor? And vehicles? Which stats would you use?

Any special piece of equipment I should remember?

Is there a d20 Modern with WW2 gear?

Posted by: JongWK Sep 3 2003, 03:59 PM

Raccoon,

But what do you think of the setting idea? I appreciate both, but I'm more interested in getting some feedback on the campaign idea.

Posted by: Black Isis Sep 3 2003, 04:26 PM

Well, in my opinion, you should not be using D20 for this. There is a very cool game from DP9 that you could definitely use for this that uses their CORE rules called http://www.dp9.com/Worlds/GK.htm which I think you will find works perfectly. Plus, I think the CORE rules are the best system I've ever seen, so you get the added advantage of using them. Don't worry that the game seems to be a miniatures wargame -- it was at first, but they have an RPG for it now (the good thing about Silhouette CORE is that it scales well and does miniatures vehicle combat just as well as RPG stuff).

The setting idea sounds neat, but are you sure you aren't doing too much with it? Sometimes overloading the setting like that can get things out of hand, so you might want to pick a few choice elements and pare it down a little around them.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Sep 3 2003, 04:30 PM

sounds interesting. I'd say set it in the Meditteranean after the invasion of italy. The water ways give you access to occupied Corsica and the Greek islands for spice and the various ancient temples etc of italy for the occult feel.

Posted by: Raccoon Avatar Sep 3 2003, 04:45 PM

Posted by: Adam Sep 3 2003, 04:49 PM

Posted by: JongWK Sep 3 2003, 05:48 PM

@ Snow Fox:
Or maybe an island called Thera?

@ Black Isis:
You think so? How would you simplify it? What would you remove/add?

@ Adam:
I heard you were part of the Tri-Stat design team. If so, congratulations for a well done job.

Posted by: Adam Sep 3 2003, 05:51 PM

I do work for Guardians Of Order, but I did not do any of the original design work on Tri-Stat - I've been with the company for just about a year, now, and most of my work is graphic design/layout for BESM books.

I did do some writing/design work on our recent Tri-Stat dX core rulebook, available in stores for $10 or http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1881&

Oh, and since you appear to have Tri-Stat BESM, and I was talking about BESM d20 - you can download the full rules component of BESM d20 as the Anime d20 System Reference Document, at http://www.guardiansorder.com/d20/animed20_srd/

Alright, back to work. [Oddly enough, I'm writing a whole book right now... weee!]

Posted by: lodestar Sep 3 2003, 07:50 PM

You might want to check out Luftwaffe 1946 a comic with manga type styling about an alternate events of the second world war. Not terribly realistic, but it might give you some ideas. As for integating the whole occult thing, stuff like the Nazis having bases in Antarctica found in Delta Green and the Lovecraft story that it was inspired by might be good starting points. As for available gear check out the Beyond the Mountains of Madness sourcebook for D20 CoC. A mamoth of a read, but very interesting.

Posted by: Black Isis Sep 3 2003, 08:14 PM

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 3 2003, 08:21 PM

You _might_ want to check out some of Harry Turtledoves novels.

They are printed by DelRey if I ain't too wrong now.

One has Stalin, Hitler and Mao on the planning table, where they plot how to counter an alien attack. It's mostly alternate-history, but could give you a feeling of 'how to make it feel like'. *shrugs* Don't know if they're in print still, though.

The last time I saw them was four years ago in a small german RPG-Shop where I worked as an intern for.

Posted by: SubRosa Sep 3 2003, 09:22 PM

Well Sarge, I am glad someone mentioned Harry Turtledove and his In The Balance series. For those who don't know, it is 1942, and an alien fleet arrives and invades the Earth. Fun for everyone involved, especially the aliens, who find humans to not be quite the pushover they anticipated.

I also agree with Raccoon and Isis, in suggesting that you keep a tighter focus on the game. Don't branch out into lots of genres, as it is likely to confuse the players.

Here is a thought along some of your original lines. Undersea aliens awake in their massive colony ship, which crash-landed in the Gulf of Mexico 65 million years ago (you did mention X-Com, right ). They immediately clash with the United States.

However, their craft still damaged, their numbers (relatively) small, the aliens do not possess an overwhelming superiority over humanity. So the look for allies to survive. Nazi Germany makes a pact with them. They relocate their ship to Europe (Occupied France? Spain? the Azores?)

Although possessing few ships, the alien subermersible technology enables them to shift the battle of the seas enough into Germany's favor to break the allied blockade of Europe. The Allies get a lucky break, and capture an alien vessel that broke down from engine malfunction. They are able to secretly tow it to an out of the way harbor in New England, where they now probe its secrets, hoping to create their own hybrid human-alien technology.

In the meantime, the aliens show the nazis how to enhance their soldiers using genetic engineering, and surgical techniques, grafting them with armor, weapons, and other physical enhancements (which naturally turn them into monstrous entities, only barely human).

The Nazis are more than willing to repay the aliens with the human genetic material which they require for their own species survival. After all, there are plenty of undesirables in both Germany and the occupied territories whom the Nazis already with to remove.

Perhaps one of the more insidious alien corruptions are the psionics. These were normal humans, given injections of alien brain fluid into their own skulls. Only one in ten subjects do not incur massive brain damage or total insanity. The resulting mutation grants the human incredible mental powers. The long-term side-effects are uncertain. However, madness and cancer seem to be emerging as very likely possibilities...

Originally a 'gift' for their Nazi benefactors, the psionic technology was quickly smuggled out of Germany by Allied spies. Using the few alien prisoners of their own, the allies naturally began a psionic program as well.

So there you have it. A dark pact of alien and nazi on one hand, increasing in power by the day. A desperate alliance of the Free (and not so free) World on the other, trying to catch up in the race of technology, and hoping that its advantage in men and material sustains it long enough to tip the scales in their favor.

Posted by: JongWK Sep 4 2003, 12:58 AM

Great ideas, SubRosa. I'm more inclined to use the Cthulhu-style ancients, but they might as well be aliens who've been slumbering for untold years. Lovecraft just happened to find some really ancient data about them (heck, maybe he's alive and hiding, waiting for "the right people" to end the threat he covertly warned about in his novels...).

The aliens (I'm thinking of using the Mind Flayers, since they are a perfect match in every aspect) could be trying to repair their mothership, using their Nazi pals to get what they need. Meanwhile, the Nazis get desperate sought help.

The best part of it is that now I have a really big target for the A-Bomb


@ Lodestar:

That was it! Luftwaffe 1946, not 1946. I have one where Hitler decides to build big mechas instead of faking a lunar landing, much to the desperation of Goebbels & Cº.

@ Black Isis:

Good ideas. Indy-style is always good.

I'm thinking that the characters could start as members of a US-funded archaeological team who meet the wrong people in a wrong place, ending up as experiments for the Illithid (thus allowing the characters to take Psi skills and levels). That could allow a wide range of characters and gives the PCs a good reason to hate the nasty tentacled monsters (no japanese schoolgirls please ).

Posted by: Street Wyze Sep 4 2003, 01:44 AM

I personally liked the idea of having to rescue a Jewish rabbi from a concentration camp because he has knowledge and powers that could help the allies. This is good because in the raid on the concentration camp you could also throw in monsters that the Nazi's have created in a nearby laboratory using victims from their camps. Maybe this could be a mission in your overall campaign.

Posted by: Mike DF Sep 4 2003, 01:50 AM

Ruleswise, you might wish to check out the issue of Dungeon currently out, #102. The Polyhedron part of the magazine in the back contains a D20 Modern pulp minigame. Has pulp style advanced classes, feats, and a short list of equipment from the era, along with the proper wealth levels. No tanks and such however and the list of weaponry is short. (Instead of a dozen different classes of pistol for example, it has heavy, medium, light, and revolver: with each including and example or two of the general type of weapon.) I mention this because I have no idea how much detail you need or want.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Sep 4 2003, 03:35 AM

Posted by: Raccoon Avatar Sep 4 2003, 03:42 AM

Posted by: Snow_Fox Sep 4 2003, 12:44 PM

I don't like Turtledove. I read his entire lost legion serries and a few other things he's written. His stuff is well researched, well put together and he is quite willing to kill off a major character to press upon you the mortality of them all, but for some reason I just find his books slow going.

I'm not sure about getting a Rabbi out of a camp. If he had such power he could get himself out a la Daniel Howling coyote, but maybe one in hiding like Anne Frank. You have to find him, but just the search alone will catch the attention of the Gestapo or maybe the Abwere is not as incompetant as history has shown.

Posted by: lorg Sep 4 2003, 01:33 PM

There is a new computer game on the way called http://www.nival.com/eng/s2_info.html that you might be able to snag an idea or two from.

Posted by: JongWK Sep 5 2003, 02:41 PM

@ Snow Fox:
1) Uh, Abwere?

2) It's not about magical power (remember this wouldn't include Urban Arcana-style magic), but knowledge that can devastate the aliens. Maybe the Prague Golem had something to do with it...

Being the evil GM I am, I might combine your suggestion with the concentration camp: Track him down in a city before the aliens' minions, but then the Rabbi is inadvertedly sent to a concentration camp by another Nazi group (SS vs. Gestapo, maybe?). PCs would have to raid a concentration camp in order to rescue him before they kill him, and before the aliens discover them (I imagine them leaving in disguise with the Rabbi, only to see their foes's car arriving to the camp shortly after. Then it becomes a desperate escape to the airplane waiting for them!)

@ Mike DF:
That might do, although I don't think I can get a Dungeon here in Uruguay

BTW, what was the standard gear for WW2 soldiers? (US, UK & German mainly, I'm talking about weapons and the likes)

Posted by: SubRosa Sep 5 2003, 06:12 PM

The Abwehr was German Military Intelligence. Lead by Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, one of WWIIs enigmas. He was often cosidered a genius, even in his own time, but also a thoroughbred too, with all the problems that entails. There is a very strong possibility that he was secretly collaborating with the allies. Or in the very least intentionally sabatoging Germany's war effort to insure they failed. No one has ever been able to really prove it one way or another. We do know that he was a part of the plot against Hitler, and was executed in April 1945.

The Abwehr fell out of favor in 1943. After that the SS took over intelligence and counter-intelligence operations, as it took over a great many things in its gradual rise to a truly monolithic entity.

For example, The Gestapo was originally run by Goring. but Himmler wanted control of all the German police, secret or otherwise. There was a power struggle, and Himmler won. In April of 1934 the Gestapo fell under his command. After that, Himmler reorganized all of the political police into the Gestapo, and put his deputy Heydrich in charge.

On Junel 17, 1936 Hitler named Himmler the chief of all German police. Nine days later he started a fundamental reorganization of the police into two brances. The Ordnungspolizei (Orpo) or regular police (the beat cops), and the Sicherheitspolizei (Sipo) or secret police under the command of Heydrich. Sipo included the Gestapo, and the Kriminalpolizei (or criminal police, basically plain-clothes detectives). Still later, Sipo was was merged with the SD (Sicherheitsdienst, or security and intelligence service), forming the RSHA, or Main Office of Reich Security. That in turn being a part of the SS. Thus the german police state was born.

Confusing neh?
While the popular name Gestapo stuck, if it is WWII, and you were dealing with German intelligence or counter-intelligence, you were probably actually talking about someone in the SD. One should also remember that even though the Abwehr and Gestapo/SD/RSHA were supposedly on the same team, they were not pals, and did not share information or cooperate. They were rivals, not allies, and eventually the RSHA won.

Posted by: Street Wyze Sep 5 2003, 08:58 PM

Posted by: SubRosa Sep 6 2003, 08:38 PM

The British (and Commonwealth) used the Lee-Enfield .303 rifle. 10 round magazine.

Also the Bren light machine gun, or 'Bren Gun'. It also was .303 caliber, with a 30 round box magazine.

Look at http://www.wwiitech.net/main/ for info on lots of different arms used in world war II

Posted by: JongWK Sep 7 2003, 10:52 PM

Thank you all! I'll be updating as soon as possible.

So far, I have:

-A British spy. Probably a charismatic hero. I get flashbacks of SAS and 007.
-A wannabe martial artist. Seems she was raised in the British colony of Hong Kong, or is half-Asian. Strong hero type, certainly.

No clue as to what will the others choose. Oh, there won't be any magic. I'm going the full tech way, with psionics as a secret weapon (danke, SubRosa... can I give your mail to my players if they hate me? )

Posted by: SubRosa Sep 8 2003, 12:53 AM

Posted by: SubRosa Sep 8 2003, 12:55 AM

So do you expect the characters will be basically spies? Or some form of commando/reconniasance team? Spies would seem an ideal format for an rpg in a WWII setting.

I must say, this idea sounds very exciting. Have you seen the game Godlike? It is supers in a World War II setting. Very intriguing. The timeline they give for the war is very cool. Espeically Baba Yaga's Hut, which is roaming around Russian wiping out entire German and Russian divisions!

Posted by: lodestar Sep 8 2003, 01:16 AM

To give more variety to the party you might think about placing the adventure just before the outbreak of the second world war in the mid thirties. It would also give the plot twist on how the PCs could possibly stop the war. Was Hitler under the control of aliens? Secret nazi-alien bases in the antarctic?Weather stations in Greenland really alien signal beacons? Would it be possible to stop the pact of iron? If events occured before the war PCs might also be less inclined to try and shoot their way out of everything. Just food for thought.

Posted by: Senor 187 Sep 8 2003, 01:24 AM

Maybe the pact of iron is an attempt to get Russian UFO tech (maybe from the Tunguska blast)?

Posted by: JongWK Sep 29 2003, 02:45 PM

I've been dedicating some of my spare time to the campaign, essentially discussing with players about their characters... AND rules system. Especially rules system.

Now, I'm on a crossroad. I have to choose between two systems:

a) A hybrid between d20 Modern and some Spycraft (Wound and Vitality points, mainly), with some stuff from the Polyhedron magazine (Pulp Heroes mini RPG).

Or...

b) ...Shadowrun, without magic and cyberware (ok, there *might* be something down the line).

Needless to say, being such a rabid SR fan, I'm attracted to SR3:

1) Besides being a better system, I have the books that I'd need to run it (BBB, SR Comp, CC, Critters, some M&M & MitS... no, I don't have Rigger 3 yet).
2) It could be a good way to introduce the SR system to some of them (moving them away from d20... hey! I'm actually doing a good deed! )

However, now I have some new questions:

-If I use SR rules, odds are I'll be GMing with the SR Companion. 120 building points may be too much considering that they only have to spend them in Attributes, Skills and Edges & Flaws. What would you reccomend?

-Does Rigger 3 (or R3 Revised) have anything close to WW2 vehicles? (or at least, can I create them using the rules?)

-Gear: I can use WW2 weapons with SR equivalents (i.e, a WW2 9mmgun would do the damage of a Heavy Pistol: 9M, etc). What about protective gear? I don't kevlar had been invented in the 40s...

-Magic: While I don't want magic in this campaign, suppose I want them to deal with some occult menace at some point (stealing a Necronomicon or the Spear of Destiny from the SS). Do you think I should keep things "mundane" or give them an extra punch in those cases?

-Critters: Why, they are obviously Nazi experiments!

-Technology: No cyberware. However, an "übermen projekt" could be possible (bioware? primitive cyberware?).

-What about electronics?

-Setting: The idea of beginning ina pre-War scenario is... interesting (having the entire party run for their lives when France collapses, yum yum... ). They'll definitely be spies working for the Allies (seems like it will be the British Intelligence, though I barely know there are a MI5 and MI6-something departments).

Anything else I should take into consideration if I use the SR rules?

Thanks!

Posted by: JongWK Sep 29 2003, 02:47 PM

Also, suppose I want to have some aliens. What could possibly be their SR-equivalent? (Magically active guys with mind manipulation and detection "spells"? Bugs?)

Posted by: Siege Sep 29 2003, 02:54 PM

On this thread, Pinnacle Entertainment does a "Weird Wars" with this idea in mind.

http://www.peginc.com/OurGames/index.htm#

-Siege

Posted by: FlakJacket Sep 29 2003, 03:14 PM

Posted by: Adam Sep 29 2003, 03:49 PM

Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 29 2003, 04:35 PM

I'll second the recommendation for Adventure. It'd certainly take a lot less adaptation than SR or d20.

Posted by: JongWK Sep 29 2003, 05:13 PM

Adventure? Sure, which one of you is buying it for me?

It's not like I wouldn't like to give Adventure a try (or Godlike, or... well, you get the idea), but there is this little problem called money, so I'm using what I have: d20 or Shadowrun.

Posted by: Adam Sep 29 2003, 05:40 PM

I'd go with d20, then.

Posted by: The_Sarge Sep 29 2003, 05:41 PM

I'd dito Adam.

The SR system just seems pretty... Tailored to SR and it's world.
d20 is more customizable. Ig you have Spycraft, that's a plus.

Posted by: JongWK Oct 15 2003, 06:27 PM

Well, it is definitely d20 Modern, perhaps using vitality rules from Spycraft and the Pulp Heroes game (Dungeon Magazine).

I've been told we should add another die to damage if usinn vitality rules with d20 Modern, is that true?

Posted by: Finbar Oct 24 2003, 07:45 AM

I didnt see any sign of anyone mentioning it, but there is a WWII d20 game called "Wierd War II" not bad, rules for Guns and such and some nice classes and prestige classes.

Just an idea

Posted by: Voorhees Oct 25 2003, 03:21 AM

I think there's a dungeon magazine that has WW2 D20 in it. I can't give you the exact number right now, but its something to look for.