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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Racism in Shadowrun

Posted by: CanvasBack Sep 29 2003, 05:55 AM

Ok, most people accept and understand that there is a ton of racism in the Shadowrun universe. With all the new metahumans, their variants, and what with SURGE thanks to YOTC, it's no wonder why they came up with rules for social interaction based on these new races. The Shadowrun writers didn't even stop with determining simple bias, but went on to give GMs a way to calculate levels of bias. But does your group actually use these rules or are such interactions always determined/directed by the GM's whim? Perhaps something in between? I hope the poll's options reflect enough of the variability. If not, hit the last selection and explain what your group does that wasn't covered in the poll.

Again the question is: How often do the racism rules impact your game?

I would also like to see to what extent racism does impact your game, whether or not your group uses the rules often. How often do you make a human who is at least slightly racist? How about a Troll who hates elves? How about an Ork who has it in for humans? An elf that looks down on everyone or a self-hating dwarf?

P.S. Let's not get too touchy out there, alright?

Posted by: DV8 Sep 29 2003, 09:03 AM

My answer doesn't fit into these categories. First of all, I am the GM. Second of all, with all the balls I'm trying to keep up in the air, racism is one that I keep dropping in favour of others. I should pay more attention to racism, because, when I think about it, racism has a pretty big influence in the timeline and the thinking of Shadowrun universe and it's inhabitants.

Posted by: Raptor1033 Sep 29 2003, 01:33 PM

as a GM i hadn't thought of including racism in the game, i need to go and look up how the general populace reacts with it's racism. as a player if i'm playing an ork or troll i'm usually racist against elves, just cause it's really fun to call them panty-waist, light-weight, daisy eaters. then walk off proclaiming that i want a big, juicy, steak. which can get me in pretty big trouble, for the last run the guy that gave us our payment was an elf, he started by insulting us in a snooty manner, so i went off on him, almost didn't get paid and almost got a manabolt to the face (which was instead directed at my friend, who took the insults a little too far, something along the lines of wanting an elf-steak)

Posted by: Traks Sep 29 2003, 01:59 PM

There really should be some more answers, because I GM and I use racism rolls for their contacts, just to see how they react and so they can't have way "Everyone have all other contacts".

Make at least on more answer "I GM and use those rolls in some cases"

Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 29 2003, 02:03 PM

The way I run it is that racism is only applied for certain types of NPCs. Troll gangers, for instance, tend to have a vehement dislike of elves. Less educated humans tend not to like much of anyone. Rarely do I bother rolling for it since it's more fun to simply roleplay it.

Posted by: CanvasBack Sep 29 2003, 05:10 PM

Quote Traks

QUOTE

There really should be some more answers, because I GM and I use racism rolls for their contacts, just to see how they react and so they can't have way "Everyone have all other contacts".

Well, sorry Traks, I see what your saying and all but I thought by addressing it from the position "What does the group's GM do?" that this topic would get more responses from players as well as GMs. As the group's GM, you should have the clearest insight to what is actually being done and after all, GMs are part of the group too. In short, the answers stay as is, I'm not even really sure if I can edit them anyway.

Quick question for Traks though, has it ever come up that an Ork PC has taken a human contact which ended up being an unmitigated racist? Or do the PCs have to pick there initial contacts from their own race only? I could see positives and negatives with both.

As a general side question to posters at large, how much old fashioned racism, i.e. "the color of your skin don't match mine" type of stuff still exists in your Shadowrun campaign? Is it still out there at about the same level it has been, less, more, out there but a lower priority to the "new racism". Some people I know seem to think this type of stuff has completely gone away by the 2060s. My only point is that in a dystopic future, holding hands and singing songs takes a back seat to simple survival so if anything, certain racial divisions should have gone up i.e. Native American vs. Anglo.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 29 2003, 05:30 PM

QUOTE (CanvasBack)

I'd say having a contact who is biased against your race wouldn't make for much of a contact (well, beyond level 1). Either the contact shouldn't hold that prejudice or the contact shouldn't hold it against the character specificly (ie, "Most orks ain't too bright, but you're an okay guy.").

Posted by: Comedian Sep 29 2003, 07:05 PM

Every character, and I mean every character, is a racist.

I've even had mages various species who were doing initiations, or astral questing, are I FORCED THEM, practically at gunpoint, to deal with racism.

I also encourage my PC's to create racist characters, but that might just be me, since I'm one of the few who stables genetically deficients, drug-addicts, paraphiliacs, rapists, childkillers, amoral assholes, and more.

I also do a fair amount of sexual slander, such as homophobia, BD/sm harassment, syphilitic polyamorists, AIDS victims, etc.

It all depends on how gritty a world you want to produce.

Posted by: CanvasBack Sep 30 2003, 07:18 AM

Well, gee... I see the topic has drawn much more views than votes. Come on people, don't be shy. I want to know if anybody uses the actual rules on racism and so far, it looks like only 1 group out there does, and only when the NPC isn't a major character. In most other instances, it looks like GM's have made the decision for each NPC as they deem suitable to their campaign, as to how racist the NPC is. I don't know that this is a bad thing, but what gets lost is that in defining how racist an NPC is, the rules also provide a means of counteracting it, albeit by a die roll. While role-playing vs. roll-playing debates come and go, I see this particular topic as being in the vortex of such debates, at least as far as Shadowrun is concerned. Why? Because encountering people that are dead set-against your character for what they are can be an intense role-playing experience if you can get through it, and the mechanic for getting through stuff is rolling dice.
Well, I don't want to drag my own poll/post off topic, but I have to ask the question. Does your group's GM (or you as the GM) give you(give the players) the chance to counteract racism against player characters, either through roleplaying, die rolls or some combination? Or, do you simply have to live with it and accept what fate deals you? I understand the notion that there will be unmitigated racists out there that you won't be able to do anything about, but on the otherhand, do you ever encounter SR's version of Archie Bunker/George Jefferson? Do guys that are prejudiced, but in the end, redeemable ever show up in your game? It seems like without the random factor of a die roll, that GMs might get stuck in certain archetypes and some variety would be lost.

Ok, enough blathering for now. Just some stuff I was mulling over.

Posted by: The White Dwarf Sep 30 2003, 09:34 AM

Well, which option I use as a GM depends entierly on what NPCs the PCs are interacting with.

For major NPCs like Johnsons or extraction targets I decide before hand. Leaving this kind of thing to chance is just asking your plot to get messed up.

For re-ocuring NPCs that players bring in (like contacts, or friends, ones I dont have total play over as the GM since they may be included in PC backgrounds or whatnot) I usually ignore the rules or follow whatever precedent is set by the surrounding information.

For random non-important NPCs Ill either use what logic dictates, or make a roll. Like said above, the Troll GoGang is probably anti-something and pro-troll. While the random barkeep at the bar that happens to be across from the target building for a run will get a roll; I mean the PCs may well just happen to have an anti-troll bartender at the ideal survelliance spot for their run, and they an deal. Job hazard and all that.

Posted by: Raptor1033 Sep 30 2003, 01:59 PM

comedian, what the hell is a paraphiliac? someone who gets sexually excited by paranormal critters? i tried to look it up over at webster's and it shrugged it's virtual shoulders at me

Posted by: Mercer Sep 30 2003, 02:16 PM

I never roll for racism, but racism usually comes up in the npcs that I run because it seems like racism is so prevalent in Shadowrun. For npcs that I design, I decide ahead of time if they racist and how racist. Even non-racist humans will still be uncomfortabel standing in the shadows of several trolls. For npcs I make on the fly-- people the pc's are just running into in the course of a game-- the racism is just par to the personality I make up on the spot.

For instance, as a gm, trolls and orks-- even nicely dressed ones-- will have a harder time catching a cab than a human.

Posted by: Raccoon Avatar Oct 1 2003, 01:35 AM

In SR games I play...meta-racism comes into it 100% of the time. From me.

I never play a human...and try to get as un-human a character as I can possibly "finess" past the GM. [and in DnD I call the monster manual the "phb2"]

I then enjoy roleplaying that difference, both physically (IC) and mentally (IC+OOC). It's much more fun than being boring and 'normal' all the time.

Naturally, I get a lot of racism aimed at me...(but i LIKE it)...

Posted by: Steel Eyes Oct 1 2003, 02:39 AM

As GM racism is based on a case by case basis. It depends on the background for the NPC( yes they have backgrounds too) as well as his/her race. In games I have played in it hasn't really come up, except when a PC does it.

Posted by: SugarDog Oct 1 2003, 03:00 AM

QUOTE

Well, I can't find the reference, but I believe it says somewhere in SR3 that sexism is more or less completely abolished. Given the history of decline in these two things (for instance, blacks were allowed to vote before women in the U.S.), it stands to reason that color-based racism might be fairly rare also. These are basically clan-mentality hate-isms, which are usually based on relative degrees of difference, IMO. When everyone has the same skin color, people develop certain clannish identities and prejudices against religious groups. When everyone is of the same sub species, people develop prejudice against skin color groups. When new Homo sapien sub species come about, people develop prejudices against those. Possibly due to evolutionary reinforcement of clan/family identity maintenance, we have a strong tendency to alienate whatever group is most different from us, thus the presence of metahuman races would make color-based racism lesss frequent. Not extinct, but less prevalent.

Of course, this would all be subject to individual variation, cultural and political history (ex. UCAS and NAN), and ignorance, but as long as we have someone to hate, we're happy.

ain't we grand

Posted by: CanvasBack Oct 1 2003, 03:43 AM

@Sugardog

Sexism completely aboloshished? Maybe as official policy in the UCAS (General Colloton), but no sexism at all? The Japanacorps should be rife with both sexism and racism of all kinds. I hate to drag real life into a perfectly fine fantasy discussion but women in Japanese corporations now are seen as acceptable candidates for brides to up and coming executives. They actually throw an office party when one of these trysts comes to fruition, complete with a severance package for the wife. With the (fictional) rise of actual mega-corps, I only see this situation getting worse. Since the old U.S. gets balkanized, I see inter-racial and inter-religious relations getting worse, not better, as was the case in the former Yugoslavia. But hey, if the cloud in your dystopic vision of the universe includes a silver-lining, so be it.

For the record, I think the old Alamos 20,000 contact had a reference to skin color not mattering anymore, it was all about the coming conflict between "real" humans and the Trogs, but that's just one fringe fictional lunatic yammering on...

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Oct 1 2003, 04:39 AM

QUOTE (SugarDog @ Sep 30 2003, 09:00 PM)

Yeah, it was in the 20 Questions in the SR2 BBB. I would have assumed it made it into SR3.

But OTOH, the Voting Rights Act of 1965 wasn't passed because women weren't being allowed to exercise their constitutional suffrage rights, nearly 100 years after the "Slavery" Amendments were passed.

Personally, I'd have racism be pretty damn awful and very, very omnipresent. It wasn't until someone I knew said he couldn't take the game seriously because in 40 years (this was a long time ago) metas were accepted when there's racism that goes back hundreds of years--and to paraphrase the question following the abovementioned 20Q question--"that thing over there has hands as big as a basketball." I don't buy it. I never bought it (Or the NAN, but hey, I only live on the frontlines in that particular part of the SR timeline), and I'd treat metas like crap as a GM because SR's set in a dark world, and I don't buy PC NOW, and I sure as Hell don't buy it when it applies to bony, grotesque, horned 9 foot tall monsters. People are going to be paranoid, scared, fearful, and stupid, and they sure as Hell are not going to be very tolerant of things anymore than they are of people from different ethnicities or nationalities.

Posted by: Person 404 Oct 1 2003, 06:00 AM

I'd say that sexism still has at least a little bit of sway in the UCAS; I think I remember Super Tuesday mentioning that Kenneth Brackhaven cast some subtle aspersions on Anne Pennechyk's competence based on her gender in his campaign. While he may be a right bastard, he's not stupid-- every part of a campaign is carefully managed for public consumption. Speaking of Kenny, there seem to be implications that the higher echelons of Humanis have rascist/sexist ideology in addition to their humans-first message. In the general public, I'd at least expect "Anglo" rascism against Native Americans and vice-versa.

EDIT: I am an idiot who cannot proofread.

Posted by: Stonecougar Oct 1 2003, 06:08 AM

No racism? Try playing a Ghoul.

Hell, one of my party members kept freaking out every time I entered the room... And just think how much fun I had when I went into the Tir! I distinctly recall having a rather nice elf dinner that night, tho... Much to my comrade's distaste. It was funny, even the trolls and orks thought I was bad...

Yeah, racism's still there. But on the other hand, they're fragging EVERYWHERE. Can't go 2 feet down the street without running into a metahuman. So folks adjust damn quick. 'Sides, their cred's as good as anyone else's...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 1 2003, 06:20 AM

That's a good point. Racism went on for centuries, yes, but in general you didn't have nieces and nephews who were black or brothers and sisters who turned asian if you were white, while UGE and SURGE tossed metahumans into peoples' families.

~J

Posted by: HonorableMan Oct 1 2003, 10:14 AM

As GM i include it from time to time, to remind the players its still there, but dont bother with it normally. A group splitting up to do legwork is enough of a job already without bothering to roll on racism tables or come up with it every time. But there is the odd npc bothering the characters based on race, a run against Humanis or involvements in metahuman rights groups. Basically the answer is: Whenever it fits my story.
As player i play non-racists, except for a dwarf who lost chummers to ghouls and had a close run in with a vampire, but react on it if encountered. E.g. a troll character pushed a lady face-first into her soup in a tres-chic restaurant after she hissed something about "dirty trogs" which he picked up. Or my orc giving a lecture to some norm streetpunk about how he should raise himself out his bad social circumstances before pissing off a well-to-do runner who could rip him apart without breaking a sweat.

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Oct 2 2003, 05:27 AM

I consider myself a fairly rational, reasonable person who's fairly open-minded, but I don't think for a second that I'm a rational enough person that I wouldn't go batshit if a family member changed vias UGE or SURGE, so that may slightly color my reasoning. I can, however, reasonably think to understand how there were people in SR who were willing to kill people they loved over this.

I just don't have an open enough mind, I guess, to think that metahumans and magicians aren't going to be treated like crap by humans in general because they are different. I have a very dark view on humanity, and I would make them suffer.

QUOTE (HonorableMan)

E.g. a troll character pushed a lady face-first into her soup in a tres-chic restaurant after she hissed something about "dirty trogs" which he picked up.

See, I'd be utterly overwhelmed to think that a troll could do that there and not be hunted for sport, assuming they make it out before the Star arrived ready for an "accident" to occur.

Posted by: HonorableMan Oct 2 2003, 06:52 AM

QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)

See, I'd be utterly overwhelmed to think that a troll could do that there and not be hunted for sport, assuming they make it out before the Star arrived ready for an "accident" to occur.

Oh, he was told the door, along with the lady, by the elven waiter, who seemed to have no tolerance for either kind of behaviour. To bad he missed the meeting with Mister J, but LS did not show up, at least not until he left the site. A fairly charismatic troll with high etiquette in a tailor-made suit who just was insulted doesnt get the same treatment as a unwashed ganger just seeking trouble.

Posted by: CanvasBack Oct 3 2003, 02:56 PM

Well, it looks more and more like the rules on racism are pretty much a waste of text, since very few people use them. I don't think this is necessarily bad, since racism seems to play a part in most games anyway, but in general it looks like this topic falls under the category of "GM's discretion." The rules seemed to be geared to NPCs that the GM has made up on the fly anyway, so perhaps this means there are very many, very prepared GMs out there?

Well, maybe not. But I think racism is a pretty critical part of the game, especially for those seeking a "perilous and dystopic future" setting. I found the feedback informative, hopefully some of the rest of you did to.