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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Essence Ingame
Posted by: HonorableMan Sep 30 2003, 06:43 PM
Is essence inplay readable in medical data? To what degree, if? Are there canonical sources that clarify this? 
And the big question: What is essence ingame?
Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 30 2003, 06:52 PM
Simply put, essence appears to be your "life force". When you're out of essence, you tend to die (mages in the astral too long, too much cyber, vampires, etc). It's sort of a "soul" quality, if you will.
Medical data can give a rough idea of essence simply from the amount of cyberware it shows. It's pretty well know that someone walking around with 40% of their body replaced by metal has more essence than someone with only 20%. Modified by type, of course. Metal attached directly to the brain tends to eat up essence very quickly.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Sep 30 2003, 07:08 PM
With a detailed medical exam, even a failed roll will reveal a character's essence.
As for what it actually is, it's debated in-game. Some say it's the degree to which a person's body matches their "astral template", others say it's an indication of how much the nervous system has had to alter its pathways to accomodate for new equipment. It's deliberately left vague.
~J
Posted by: Rev Sep 30 2003, 08:40 PM
You can also have fun making up techincal jargon for it:
"He is about a four on the Miller-Jabberwocky Spiritual Integrity Scale."
Just be sure to never use the same scale twice. 
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Sep 30 2003, 09:17 PM
If you use a different name each time, you should apply linear adjustments to some of them to throw the players off.
A 4 on the Miller-Jabberwocky Spiritual Integrity Scale could be a 16 on the Holman Neurological Foundation Record and a 2 on the Westering Psyche Decay Chart.
Posted by: HonorableMan Oct 1 2003, 07:25 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| With a detailed medical exam, even a failed roll will reveal a character's essence. As for what it actually is, it's debated in-game. Some say it's the degree to which a person's body matches their "astral template", others say it's an indication of how much the nervous system has had to alter its pathways to accomodate for new equipment. It's deliberately left vague. |
As it is still debated ingame and considering the mystical factor i just cant believe its readable from medical data only. Especially considering that the psychological afflictions arent that hard to nail down as pure physical conditions.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 1 2003, 04:05 PM
You're right, it doesn't make much sense, but to prevent streetsams from abruptly dropping dead after getting an internal radio implanted that's the way it is.
~J
Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 1 2003, 04:11 PM
You're both right. You can't read it from medical data, but I'd say it's well established exactly what you can and can't put into someone. They may not be able to "read your essence meter" as it were, but they can certainly look at your medical data and say "Gee, this guy looks like he's about three inches from cyber overload" or "Looks like he's had some fairly extensive neural treatments done, those are bad news."
Posted by: Sphynx Oct 1 2003, 04:31 PM
M&M, page 145 very last sentence under Detecting Implants.
| QUOTE |
| No successes means the test only reveals the basic Essence Rating or Bio Index of the character. |
Essence is a quantifyable measurement for mundanes through medical technology. You can go to any doctor and find out how much essence you have. It may not be rated 1 to 6, but it is measurable. In our games we use a system of 1 to 600, so we actually have someone with 599 Cybicels worth of implants. (Yeah... Cybicels is a strange word, but it's what we use).
Sphynx
Posted by: Rev Oct 1 2003, 04:47 PM
They could also have someone who can assense look at you and give them a score which is then recorded in your medical records.
Posted by: DV8 Oct 2 2003, 08:17 AM
I have a problem with making things like that so clearly and properly divined in the game. Surely mages and shamans talk about aura, but the word "essence" surely wouldn't be used by anyone to describe the amount of neurological and spiritual decay someone has suffered.
"Dr. Jim...how much essence does this patient have left after his accident?"
"Well, Nurse Lil, it's hard to say, let's hope for the best."
That scenario would send me running out the room crying big tears of regret that I ever agreed to game under the GM that thought it up.
You have to keep in mind that, as a science - which it isn't, strictly speaking - thaumaturgy isn't very exact, seeing as how metahumanity has only uncovered the tip of the iceberg, which takes more than 50 years of study to make our own, to truly comprehend. And besides, there's a very big spiritual factor involved, which means a lot of differences of interpretation. One man's stunbolt is not the same as the other's.
Also, magic is about emotion, not about facts and numbers, it's just too...analog. You can't peg it down.
Magic in my games, and subsequently the loss of essence through invasive cybersurgery, is mystical, and unclear. It's something you don't see, but you feel. You feel different, you feel "less." Sure, doctors know that there's a point where a body's neurological system simply fails, but I doubt that they have, like, a neurological barometer to check where someone's at.
And besides, it would just promote in-game munchkin-ism if a character would know how much goodies he could still stuff into his body without biting the dust.
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 2 2003, 08:27 AM
| QUOTE (DV8) |
| I have a problem with making things like that so clearly and properly divined in the game. Surely mages and shamans talk about aura, but the word "essence" surely wouldn't be used by anyone to describe the amount of neurological and spiritual decay someone has suffered. |
Which is why Rev and I suggested that the fuctionality be present, but that the in character terminology would vary according to the background of whoever is detemining the numbers.
The different names would indicate that people are aware of something that almost uniformly limits how much metal can be safely integrated into a person, but there is not a consensus as to why it is there.
Posted by: DV8 Oct 2 2003, 08:35 AM
Yeah, I got that. But I'm still wondering how they would rate it, though. The most accurate way to see how badly off someone is, essence-wise is by astral assenssion, but, like Kagetenshi said:
| QUOTE |
| As for what it actually is, it's debated in-game. Some say it's the degree to which a person's body matches their "astral template", others say it's an indication of how much the nervous system has had to alter its pathways to accomodate for new equipment. It's deliberately left vague. |
It's deliberately left vague because, well, it is vague. metahumanity knows little to nothing of magic, and that which they do know is known through comparison of one person's experience to the other, which, nine out of ten times, isn't comparable at all because one man's experience differs tremendously from another.
I just don't see - but maybe that's because I wouldn't want to use it in my game - how else essence, or the structural integrity of ones body could be measured and compared to what is deemed "normal."
Any ideas?
Posted by: Sphynx Oct 2 2003, 12:00 PM
| QUOTE (DV8) |
| I have a problem with making things like that so clearly and properly divined in the game. Surely mages and shamans talk about aura, but the word "essence" surely wouldn't be used by anyone to describe the amount of neurological and spiritual decay someone has suffered. "Dr. Jim...how much essence does this patient have left after his accident?" "Well, Nurse Lil, it's hard to say, let's hope for the best." That scenario would send me running out the room crying big tears of regret that I ever agreed to game under the GM that thought it up. You have to keep in mind that, as a science - which it isn't, strictly speaking - thaumaturgy isn't very exact, seeing as how metahumanity has only uncovered the tip of the iceberg, which takes more than 50 years of study to make our own, to truly comprehend. And besides, there's a very big spiritual factor involved, which means a lot of differences of interpretation. One man's stunbolt is not the same as the other's. Also, magic is about emotion, not about facts and numbers, it's just too...analog. You can't peg it down. Magic in my games, and subsequently the loss of essence through invasive cybersurgery, is mystical, and unclear. It's something you don't see, but you feel. You feel different, you feel "less." Sure, doctors know that there's a point where a body's neurological system simply fails, but I doubt that they have, like, a neurological barometer to check where someone's at. And besides, it would just promote in-game munchkin-ism if a character would know how much goodies he could still stuff into his body without biting the dust. |
I think, DV8, that you mix the meaning of Magic Loss and Essence Loss. Why wouldn't Essence Loss be quantifyable, and where do you read that it's some mystical disconnection? According to page 41 of the BBB,
| QUOTE |
| Essence is a measure of life force, of a body's wholeness. It represents the body's cohesiveness and holistic strength. |
I can only assume you mean that since loss of Essence results in loss of Magic that Essence must be related to Magic, but it's the other way around. Magic is related to Essence, but Essence gets along just fine without Magic (hence... Mundane).
This coincides with the previous M&M quote that says Doctors CAN tell you exactly how much essence you have left.
Thaumaturgy, Magic, etc have no bearing on Essence at all.
As for allowing for munchkinism.... what's wrong with that? Let's screw over the non-magi again kinda theory? First, it's in-character to 'munchkin' it. After all, if I knew exactly how far I could go with something before it was too far, and it was a subject that interested me, I'd do it. If I was a cyberjunkie, I'd do my damnest to get to 5.99999 in-character. Hell, our character Cobra (the speed demon) was/is a cyberdoc/cyberjunkie who spends hours out of each week analyzing the latest in cybertechnology and conducting complex algorithyms to figure out how much more he can jam in to make him faster. Searching for high-grade clinics who specialize in less-than-legal implantations, and keeps databases on all of it.
Maybe it's not something that can be stated in a quantifiable number such as our Cybicels, but it is quantifyable via some sort of algorithym/chart which may state that you can still reduce the neuronic flow to the brain via the natural nervous system by 0.86 percent before risking a neurological breakdown as your involuntary muscles lose the bandwidth they need, from the brain, to keep working. In addition to that 0.86 percent of neurological degredation allowable, the bloodflow rerouting can see up to a maximum of 2.6 liter differrential per day before it becomes too weak or polluted to keep the oxygen to the brain going. Etc, Etc, Etc. It could be 10 or 20 different 'systems' effected, and give players a chance to roll a Medical background skill to see if they can calculate about what that translates to in Essence.
Sphynx
Posted by: DV8 Oct 2 2003, 01:03 PM
| QUOTE |
| I think, DV8, that you mix the meaning of Magic Loss and Essence Loss. |
No, not really, though it might be completely that I'm not expressing myself well.
| QUOTE |
| Why wouldn't Essence Loss be quantifyable, |
Because neurological damage isn't quantifiable. You can say that someone's neuro-system has been "severely damaged" or "slightly damaged" but nobody will know exactly how far you can push it, and when it will break down. It's all guestimation.
| QUOTE |
| and where do you read that it's some mystical disconnection? |
My reasoning: Neurological damage isn't quantifiable, or measurable, then the only way you can check how bad the state of someone's neuro-system is in is by appraising it, either through medical means or through assenssing, since neurological damage will show in your aura, which wholely mystical in nature.
| QUOTE |
| Essence is a measure of life force, of a body's wholeness. It represents the body's cohesiveness and holistic strength. |
Yeah, I got that.
| QUOTE |
| What part of that wouldn't be understandable by medical science, and what does that have to do with mystical strength? |
Medical science: that one part where they can't put into numbers the state your neuro-system is in.
Mystical strength: No, that's your (wrongful) interpretation of my (poorly phrased) words.
| QUOTE |
| I can only assume you mean that since loss of Essence results in loss of Magic that Essence must be related to Magic, but it's the other way around. Magic is related to Essence, but Essence gets along just fine without Magic (hence... Mundane). |
No. Essence loss is a result of neurological damage, which results in degradation of one's aura, which is assensable. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not talking about Magic loss at all. I did talk about magic, but that was rather a tangent more than anything else.
| QUOTE |
| This coincides with the previous M&M quote that says Doctors CAN tell you exactly how much essence you have left. |
Page ref? Because I think that's absolute bullshit. I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm saying that in my game, doctors will most certainly not tell you that you have 4.2 points of essence left. Most certainly not.
| QUOTE |
| Thaumaturgy, Magic, etc have no bearing on Essence at all. |
No, they don't. But I can see how you would think that, since my post was pretty poorly worded.
| QUOTE |
| As for allowing for munchkinism.... what's wrong with that? |
It seems we're playing differnt games. And that's fine. I don't think it's fruitful to dive into a discussion where we argues about the pros and cons of munchkinism.
Posted by: Sphynx Oct 2 2003, 01:50 PM
Ok, maybe today, neurological damage is non-quantifiable, but we're talking a time when it is (after all, we're implanting cerebral boosters and synaptic accelerators). Although our modern day science can't quantify it, it can be quantified once our understanding is made stronger.
However, Essence loss is ALOT more than just neurological damage. It is left vague for a couple of reasons, primarily being that the writers of the game aren't medical doctors. The important thing is that it's a "physical" definciency.
As for the page ref, it's the quote in my first post on this thread:
M&M, page 145 very last sentence under Detecting Implants.
| QUOTE |
| No successes means the test only reveals the basic Essence Rating or Bio Index of the character. |
So, with a completely unsuccessful test to detect implants, you can get the Essence Rating (this is the Doctor with the medical skill) of the person being diagnosed.
Sphynx
Posted by: Abstruse Oct 2 2003, 01:58 PM
I believe there's a discussion in Cybertechnology that's appropriate to this topic. It involves an in-character discussion of essence. Basically, they say that they know there's limits to the amount of cyber that can be put in the body, and in Shadowtech, they use the word "essence" in character. They know essence has nothing to do with the size or physical capacities of the person -- a troll weightlifter and a sickly dwarf rigger both can hold the exact same implants before they die.
So they know what essence is and they know how much chrome you can shove in a body.
The Abstruse One
Posted by: DV8 Oct 2 2003, 02:10 PM
| QUOTE (Sphynx) | ||
M&M, page 145 very last sentence under Detecting Implants.
|
Oooooooooooooooh, I dislike that.
Doctor: "Mr. ehm...Smith, we see here that you have an essence of .19 left. That means that you could just squeeze in those shiny new pair of cybereyes, provided you go for the alpha grade models, of course, since they give you 20% off the essence decline."
That'll never happen in my game. It takes away so much atmosphere! To those walking the line of burnout or just plain death you shouldn't give them a precise indication of what their body will or will not be able to handle. It takes away from the sick realism that most people that go in for heavy augmentation or playing with their goddamn lives.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 2 2003, 02:14 PM
For that, I just roleplay as if those last few fractional points of essence may or may not be there. It's not necessary to have a game mechanic to force it.
~J
Posted by: Locke411 Oct 2 2003, 03:30 PM
Honestly, if I received massive artificial parts into my own body, I feel that I would recognize to some degree, at least, whether the next computer part attached to a limb would kill me. I mean, a person has to be able to feel his body straining with all that equipment.
Basically, people know when they are doing something that can get them killed. GunnerJ knows I have experience with that!
Posted by: Sphynx Oct 2 2003, 04:17 PM
| QUOTE (DV8) |
| "Dr. Jim...how much essence does this patient have left after his accident?" "Well, Nurse Lil, it's hard to say, let's hope for the best." That scenario would send me running out the room crying big tears of regret that I ever agreed to game under the GM that thought it up. |
Well, just an FYI, you're running from a Canon style of game then.
Seriously, it's all about the style of play. I agree with you, DV8, that there's a certain style which is fun that includes the gritty cyberpunkish feel Shadowrun was born out of. I personally prefer the non-gritty genre (as I said, our games kinda lean towards a marvel superheroes style of gameplay), and I'm in no way dogging your House Rules in that regards. But it's just a style of gameplay (which happens to be Canon).
Sphynx
Posted by: Lich Oct 2 2003, 06:36 PM
You can ICly know the exact essence of someone with good enough Aura Reading. With that in mind, there would most certainly be some kind of scale to measure it by that would translate into an IC equivalent of the exact 0 to 6 ratio seen in the books.
Posted by: Zazen Oct 2 2003, 06:40 PM
I recall reading bits of flavor about various corps spending assloads of money on "essence research". I bet they'd have a pretty good handle on it by now.
Posted by: DV8 Oct 2 2003, 07:07 PM
| QUOTE (Zazen) |
| I recall reading bits of flavor about various corps spending assloads of money on "essence research". I bet they'd have a pretty good handle on it by now. |
Well, depending on what kind of game you play, that's going to be brought into play in various ways. If you put the accent on the "cyberpunk" aspect of play, instead of the super-hero aspect, then your player characters will live between the cracks. Corps don't leak research data to the general public unless there's financial gain. There's no such thing as government sponsored research, and all clinics are private and corp owned. Joe and Jane shadowrunner will knock on Bill the Butcher's door when they need bullets dug out of their back and their cybereyes replaced, and Bill will most likely not have access to such extensive data.
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 2 2003, 07:14 PM
Any doc qualified to implant cyberware would need extensive training that usually would include "how to not accidentally kill a subject by metal overload." If you want to rule that cyber is so easy to install that any guy with basic medical training can implant it successfully but that the "augment overload limits" are so well hidden that even Shadowland can't get a copy, have fun but stop arguing that your way is more accurate.
Posted by: Rev Oct 2 2003, 07:54 PM
I beleive the surgery rules talk about things like aborting cyberware operations in the middle because the patient appears to be drying of essence loss. So maybe they will notice that suddenly the patients vital signs start dropping off when you get really close to 0 essence and stop the operation. Also the research that goes into designing the cyberware could include a good estimate of its "spiritual consequences" such that the doc just has to have you assensed once then he pretty much knows if you can take it. The old surgery rules had a 10-20% randomization of essence cost for any cyberware didn't they? That makes the whole thing very imprecice when a person gets toward the edge. Don't know if the new ones have that.
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 2 2003, 08:27 PM
There are surgical options (that could be hinted at IC but not explicitly stated) that allow for better or worse essence use than the standard numbers. It's in the surgery section of M&M.
Posted by: DV8 Oct 2 2003, 09:04 PM
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| Any doc qualified to implant cyberware would need extensive training that usually would include "how to not accidentally kill a subject by metal overload." |
Street docs are street docs for a reason; because they, for whatever reason, couldn't hack it in the real world. Alcohol problems. Incompetency. Fallen on disrepute. Etc.
| QUOTE |
| ...have fun but stop arguing that your way is more accurate. |
I'm really not arguing that my way is more accurate, which is why I said:
| QUOTE |
| Well, depending on what kind of game you play, that's going to be brought into play in various ways. If you put the accent on the "cyberpunk" aspect of play... |
Posted by: BitBasher Oct 2 2003, 10:32 PM
| QUOTE |
| Street docs are street docs for a reason; because they, for whatever reason, couldn't hack it in the real world. Alcohol problems. Incompetency. Fallen on disrepute. Etc. |
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 2 2003, 11:25 PM
If anyone's ever read or seen Battle Angel, Daisuke Ido is a classic street doc who was among the best doctors of the legit medical establishment before he decided to go where he could actually do some good.
Not exactly common, but far from unheard of.
~J
Posted by: Abstruse Oct 3 2003, 12:05 AM
| QUOTE (DV8) | ||||
Oooooooooooooooh, I dislike that. Doctor: "Mr. ehm...Smith, we see here that you have an essence of .19 left. That means that you could just squeeze in those shiny new pair of cybereyes, provided you go for the alpha grade models, of course, since they give you 20% off the essence decline." That'll never happen in my game. It takes away so much atmosphere! To those walking the line of burnout or just plain death you shouldn't give them a precise indication of what their body will or will not be able to handle. It takes away from the sick realism that most people that go in for heavy augmentation or playing with their goddamn lives. |
That's why you use the optional surgery rules from Man and Machine and don't tell the players their essence. Since it varies slightly depending on the surgeon, one person's WR3 takes up 5.2 essence and someone else's takes up 4.5
The Abstruse One
Posted by: DV8 Oct 3 2003, 07:18 AM
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| Or they provide free services to homeless and SINless alienating themselves from the rest of the financialcentric medical community while still needing income, or they could recognize the ludicrious tax free profit potential of less than legal implantations. Both options for world class surgeons to be street docs. I could think of many other reasons good, qualified legitimate doctors could be street docs. |
Good point, a very good source of service that I completely overlooked.
| QUOTE (Abstruse) |
| That's why you use the optional surgery rules from Man and Machine and don't tell the players their essence. Since it varies slightly depending on the surgeon, one person's WR3 takes up 5.2 essence and someone else's takes up 4.5 |
Yeah, that's a good idea. In fact, I just http://www.wiredreflexes.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=120 to my players the other day, as a result of this thread.
Posted by: DV8 Oct 3 2003, 07:19 AM
Quick question; are there rules that connect the success of the cybersurgery roll to the amount of essence lost? And if not; should there be?
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 3 2003, 08:25 AM
| QUOTE (DV8) |
| Quick question; are there rules that connect the success of the cybersurgery roll to the amount of essence lost? And if not; should there be? |
They are surgical option in man and machine. If you were to choose surgical options that affect the essence use without telling the players, it would add to the surprise next time they are assensed.
Since most of the options (maybe all, I'm not about to look it up) add a threshold instead of increasing the TN, you could actually choose them afterward and not tell the players at any time.
Posted by: DV8 Oct 3 2003, 08:50 AM
Thanks, HoV. I'll have a look at that later.
Posted by: Sphynx Oct 6 2003, 11:18 AM
| QUOTE (DV8) | ||||
Good point, a very good source of service that I completely overlooked.
Yeah, that's a good idea. In fact, I just http://www.wiredreflexes.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=120 to my players the other day, as a result of this thread. |
Just kinda be careful how far you go with this. I mean, if you're going to hide the Essence info from a player, or not allow him to use his 'player knowledge' then how far does that go? How does a character know how muh combat Pool to use? Do you have him describe his actions and then determine for yourself how many dice he can roll? Characters don't know their Karma (actually they do if you read about making deals with free spirits, but that's another thread), so do you also decide, based on the effort they describe how much karma to spend and in what manner? When does the player quit even rolling dice so they can never 'munchkin' how much they can roll, and at what point does it become a diceless RPG?
I'm not saying that roleplayin in ANY of those manners is wrong, it's actually something all players/groups eventually do, but the only 'right' way (and thus the definition of munchkin) is to use all the rules, which includes character-knowledge of his Essence and other statistics.
Sphynx
PS. Sorry for the delay on the reply, I've been very out-of-townish for the weekend
Posted by: DV8 Oct 6 2003, 11:54 AM
Because I don't see the correlation between Essence and Combat Pool, so I can't really accurately reply to that analogy.
In regards to your relatively generic - and therefore easily answerable - question about how far one could take this obscurity; Unless the player has a serious bio-medical background, preferably with a cybernetics specialisation, they don't know how much their body can or cannot take, and they have to go on how fit they feel, which depends entirely on GM input. If I tell them that after the repairs done on their cybereyes because somebody beat the shit out of them with the front fender of a Nissan Jackrabbit - Thank God for that cyberskull, huh!? - they start to feel twitchy and out of synch with time, or that they suffer from constant headaches or a bloody nose, then they can make up their own mind if it would be a good idea to go in for more surgery.
If they have the necessary skills to make such an assessment, or they go and get an outside opinion, they'll get an approximation of how well their nervous system is doing, and how much they could take. But they still won't get any numbers. They'll get a "I wouldn't go in for that Fuchi cyberleg you were thinking about, bub" or "Dude, you could still have your entire insides rewired without too much problems."
So I don't propose obscuring things like their Stealth skill, or their Combat Pool, but those things they would have little or no way of knowing.
Posted by: ialdabaoth Oct 6 2003, 11:00 PM
For replying to essence in-game, as a GM, I always have medical-type NPCs refer to it as "CNS Adaptability", and only mystic-type NPCs refer to it as "astral integrity" or "essence". Whenever I need a doctor to quote an impressive-sounding number, I just multiply Essence by 100 and divide by 6 to get a percentage - "Well, according to our MRI scans you've got 15% CNS Adaptability, putting you in Category 4 on the Reicher-Morowan scale. We can try putting the gear into you, but I can't guarantee it'll work. Oh, and I'll need you to sign here, here, and right here on this waiver, and initial here on the organ donor section."
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