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Posted by: Rajaat99 Dec 7 2005, 07:58 PM
What's been wrapped up? What loose ends are still dangling?
Posted by: stevebugge Dec 7 2005, 08:03 PM
Let's see, I think Cross Applied Technologies is gone, Arthur Dankwalther has been Thor Shot (and their was much rejoicing), obviously the race to develop and deploy a wreless matrix has concluded, and to the best of my knowledge they are now rebuilding Chicago. There may still be some goodies from Dunkelzahn's will unclaimed, Bug Spirits haven't gone away, and Aztechnology is still up to no good.
Posted by: BishopMcQ Dec 7 2005, 08:09 PM
System failure will be your best resource for this...If you Search for it over the last 180 days, you can get a pretty good mix of spoilers that explains everything from the Fall of Shadowland and Captain Chaos to who became President and why.
Posted by: SL James Dec 7 2005, 10:31 PM
What the hell? Where'd you hear about Chicago?
And, yes, who became President is a fun topic. That is, if getting kicked in the nuts is what can be considered "fun."
Posted by: stevebugge Dec 7 2005, 10:40 PM
I'll try to find the Chicago Reference and post it, it's in one of the newer books and it's sort of a passing mention made.
Ok I might have misinterpreted the Hate & Brotherhood section of the History Chapter in SR4 where they say Ares and the UCAS army cleaned up the containment zone. I believed that to mean some reconstruction as well as just clearing out most of the Bugs. However they may very well just mean that they cleaned out 98% of the bugs and left the city to fend for itself.
Posted by: Mr.Platinum Dec 8 2005, 02:44 PM
Oh I can't waite till some source books comeout for SR4!
Any one know whats being developed?
Posted by: FrankTrollman Dec 8 2005, 05:12 PM
There are three kinds of source books: game information books, setting books, and published adventures.
Game information books coming down the line are:
Street Magic (Magic)
Arsenal (Equipment + Vehicles)
Gamemaster's Screen
Augmentation (Cyberware + Medicine)
Unwired (Rigging + Hacking)
Running Wild (Paranormal Animals + rules for playing non-humans)
Then the crystal ball gets darker, because I don't think titles have been announced. But there will probably be a Companion, which may get divided up into a Gamemaster's Guide and a Player's Guide.
According to their site, setting books coming down the line are:
Runner Havens (Hong Kong and Seattle, also some other hot spots like Hamburg)
Corp Zones (Don't know where this will be, maybe Zurich?)
Jacked-up Places* (Probably Chicago, maybe Tortuga?)
The smart money is on the next plot book featuring one or more of themajor players or items new to SR4. So it would probably focus on Evo, Horizon, Neonet, or Sprites/Technomancers since those things have never gotten a writeup before.
*Not its real name, but I don't think they gave a real name.
There is an announced published adventure called On the Run. Also, Shadowrun Missions will switch over to SR4 at Origins 2006.
-Frank
Posted by: Mr.Platinum Dec 8 2005, 06:51 PM
Thanks Frank
Posted by: TheHappyAnarchist Dec 8 2005, 08:31 PM
Who is this Art guy that eveyone is so glad he got Thor bombed?
Posted by: ChaosEsper Dec 8 2005, 08:40 PM
| QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist) |
| Who is this Art guy that eveyone is so glad he got Thor bombed? |
He was mentioned in Dunkelzahn's will and got a zillion nuyen, and basically declared war on Novatech. I believe that he is in part responsible for them having to go public, but I'm a bit fuzzy on that part. He got shafted by Fuchi and thus hates Villiers. They actually took him out with a Thor shot though? Out of curiosity, where was he, and how many Thor shots have actually been fired offensively, i.e. not as a test of the system?
Posted by: ogbendog Dec 8 2005, 08:43 PM
what is a thor shot?
Posted by: Shrike30 Dec 8 2005, 08:50 PM
Take a chunk of metal, put it in orbit, strap on a simple guidance package and a chemical rocket. When the time comes to kill something, all you've got to do is fire up the rocket, drop it out of orbit, have it self-guide onto the target, and the pure kinetic energy of this piece of metal hitting it's target at orbital velocities (my understanding is that the space shuttle enters the atmosphere in the mid Mach-20s) will be enough to cause an enormous amount of damage.
Think of it as being a meteor that you're able to guide onto a target. I know the US military was considering these for a while during the Cold War as tank killers, to aid in fighting a tank war against the Russians across eastern Europe, as a thor shot would just destroy an MBT.
Posted by: FrankTrollman Dec 8 2005, 08:52 PM
A http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Thor_shot is a space-based mass driver that drops objects on targets from space. 80 kilometers of free gravitational excelleration plus a medium-sized object = a crap tonne of flaming pain at the target point.
The Chicxulub Crater, for example, was formed when a 10-kilometer wide meteor struck the Earth 65 million years ago with hillarous results all around. The Thor system drops rocks that are much smaller than that, and are intended to take out installations and ships, rather than 70% of all life on Earth.
-Frank
Posted by: SL James Dec 8 2005, 09:37 PM
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Dec 8 2005, 11:12 AM) |
| Jacked-up Places* (Probably Chicago, maybe Tortuga?) |
I read Feral Places.
I also bet there's going to be another version of Target: Awakened Lands. Greece is the only country in Europe not covered between Shadows of Europe and Asia, AFAIK, and I bet there's all sort of crazy-ass magic shit going on just from the various teasers in books released in the last two years.
And from what I read, I think it was actually S-K's thor shot (Omega Orders make for strange bedfellows).
Posted by: Rajaat99 Dec 8 2005, 09:42 PM
| QUOTE (stevebugge) |
| Cross Applied Technologies is gone, Arthur Dankwalther has been Thor Shot (and their was much rejoicing), obviously the race to develop and deploy a wreless matrix has concluded, and to the best of my knowledge they are now rebuilding Chicago. There may still be some goodies from Dunkelzahn's will unclaimed, Bug Spirits haven't gone away, and Aztechnology is still up to no good. |
Cross? Gone? How'd that happen? What book is it in? Who took out 'Ol Artie?
What about California?
Posted by: stevebugge Dec 8 2005, 09:55 PM
Lucien died in a mysterious plane crash, and without him to hold it together CATco was essentially parted off.
Posted by: SL James Dec 8 2005, 10:32 PM
| QUOTE (Rajaat99) | ||
Cross? Gone? How'd that happen? What book is it in? Who took out 'Ol Artie? What about California? |
System Failure.
California's mentioned in SR4. If you like Cal and reality, I'd suggest skipping that part, though.
Posted by: Shrike30 Dec 8 2005, 10:59 PM
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| A http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Thor_shot is a space-based mass driver that drops objects on targets from space. |
The mass driver component is really optional (although I'd understand if the SR versions are driver-based). All you really need is to get that lump of metal moving downwards, and gravity will do the rest of the work.
It's a lot harder to find with antisatellite systems, too
Posted by: Grinder Dec 9 2005, 05:13 AM
| QUOTE (ChaosEsper) |
| They actually took him out with a Thor shot though? Out of curiosity, where was he, and how many Thor shots have actually been fired offensively, i.e. not as a test of the system? |
It's not mentioned where the Thor shot hit poor Artie.
Iirc three times had thor shots been fired: the incident at hawaii', at jütland/ proteus (mentioned in Schockweellen/ Shockwaves) and Artie.
Posted by: Tal Dec 9 2005, 06:08 AM
| QUOTE (stevebugge) |
| Lucien died in a mysterious plane crash, and without him to hold it together CATco was essentially parted off. |
What's mysterious about a systems failure caused by an EMP?
Posted by: SL James Dec 9 2005, 06:29 AM
Well, for starters, 1) Why was he in San Francisco, and 2) how did the Corporate Court let a AAA CEO remain within 100 miles of a known nuclear device.
Posted by: warrior_allanon Dec 9 2005, 09:26 AM
THOR shot: see Orbital Based Kinetic Energy Weapon
Posted by: stevebugge Dec 9 2005, 03:42 PM
| QUOTE (Tal) | ||
What's mysterious about a systems failure caused by an EMP? |
Nothing mysterious, I was trying to limit the post to only being a partial spoiler instead of a total monstrosity of spoilage.
Posted by: Rajaat99 Dec 9 2005, 07:44 PM
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| California's mentioned in SR4. If you like Cal and reality, I'd suggest skipping that part, though. |
What's going on with Cali that's so bad?
Spoilers won't hurt my feelings. My game is nowhere near 2070, I just want to make sure I throw in some hints in my game, so my players can see something bad coming.
Posted by: Azralon Dec 9 2005, 08:23 PM
The California basin apparently tried to fall into the ocean, but forgot which way was down. It's now a big island.
You don't typically see that sort of behavior in land masses below sea level. Current speculation focuses on heretofore unknown magical nonsense and/or writers who said "Hey, I know it doesn't make any sense and all, but it'd be cool if..."
Posted by: SL James Dec 9 2005, 08:43 PM
I'm leaning towards c) The writers didn't even bother to look at a map and have no idea what they're talking about.
There's a whole thread on this nonsensical crap.
Posted by: FrankTrollman Dec 9 2005, 08:44 PM
| QUOTE (Rajaat99) |
| What's going on with Cali that's so bad? |
California is suffering severely from MAS: Multiple Author Syndrome.
Los Angeles, according to canon, is currently:
[*] In the California Free State, where it is the world headquarters of one of the largest corporations on the planet, the Califnornia based media giant Horizon.
[*] In the Pueblo Corporate Council, after having been successfully annexed by PCC forces without much effort or hubub.
[*] An anarchist playground controlled and owned by no nations at all, because it was so financially unimportant that no country really wanted to deal with it.
...all at the same time. Keep in mind that the current listed population of the PCC after supposedly conquering LA is only about half the population of Los Angeles all by itself. And that's just the writeup of the politics which is so mixed up and twisted that it meets itself going through revolving doors.
No, the worst part is the "geology" - that's so bad that we have to put quotes around it. See, apparently Earthquakes (the natural disaster that California is most prepared for) somehow turned LA into an island chain. This despite the fact that LA is actually a big bowl-shaped valley surrounded by mountains. The map shows an area submerged under water that not only includes regions that are over a kilometer above sea level, but which in total cover tens of thousands of square kilometers.
The amount of earth moved to create that kind of submersion would be able to fit about three Chicxulub craters (the crater in the Yucatan whose creation destroyed 70% of all life on Earth some 65 million years ago). The geologic events required to generate that kind of structural change from earthquakes would result in tsunamis that would have devastated all coastal regions of the Pacific - as well as tremors that would have been destructive as far away as Europe.
We're talking "The Earth got hit with a meteor the size of Texas" sort of thing. Which would be fine, but nowhere else is the world described as having been destroyed by a thermonuclear holocaust caused by geologic destruction.
-Frank
Posted by: Taki Dec 9 2005, 09:02 PM
TGCM ?
- Ta Gueule, C'est Magique !
- Shut Up, It's Magic (so don't try to understand)
A good principle to use in earthdawn ...
Posted by: SL James Dec 9 2005, 11:52 PM
Yeah, but that's Ghost Dance-level magic.
The city of L.A. is only about 2 million people. The problem also stems from the fact that the authors of the CFS book, as well as being biased towards certain aspects of the state, seem to have never left the UCLA campus and seemed to think that everything that people currently think of as "Los Angeles" is in one city, which it most certainly is not. The state allowed it to become a corp-run Free City, but the "city" is actually the majority of, but not all of, the Los Angeles Metropolitan Statistical Area, which is almost all of Los Angeles County, Orange County, and the populated (western) parts of San Bernadino county as well as parts of Ventura and down into Riverside counties all the way to the San Diego MSA (which is part of the explanation for the metroplexes merging in Demolition Man, BTW). The L.A. MSA has a current population of approximately 17 million people, second only (in the US) to the NYC MSA which is 23 million people.
To their credit, when the authors of CFS listed the population of the City of Los Angeles as 2 million, they were reasonably close. The problem is that the Free City of Los Angeles in SR is a sprawl of nearly 20 million people, which is more than (and this assumes a lot) the entire population of the PCC were in based on today's population figures and is around 12 million, which is apparently what the PCC's population was pre-Year of the Comet back in SR1 in the NAN book.
To their embarassment and much chargrin, the heart of the MSA is now its own city, which is swell (it was retconned in Shadows of North America to mention that the Free City was made up of the populous parts of L.A. and Orange counties) except that you have this sprawling city (when you can't see the edge of a sprawl from an airplane, you know it's pretty goddamn huge) with more people than the country which invades and annexes it. It is like Canada invading and annexing the United States militarily. After the PCC annexes Ute and more of California (so it now pushes right up into the central valley) it would now be like Canada adding Mexico to its empire.
All of this can be "fixed" if you hold a run in the area through various workarounds which need not be discussed here. But going back to the crux of Frank's post, the earthquake which submerged most of Los Angeles county and created an island in the heart of the City of L.A. is geologically impossible without wreaking massive destruction across the Pacific Rim.
Moreover, the waters don't "recede in a couple of years" or whatever crap was added. If they flooded into the basin, the water will remain until it is pumped out like in New Orleans for the sub-sea level areas, or would have receded immediately afterwards like tsunamis do. Water can't just float in mid-air.
It's crap, and it was going to be the only major thing I was going to houserule in spite of being a canon-whore, but then I read System Failure and ... Well, that's not for here.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=10288, and http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=9437
I also used to have a .sig quoting Eyeless Blond from that second thread which sums it all up nicely:
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| Unfortunately Canon's decision was that LA has become an island. LA is a basin, surrounded by hills; it has about as much chance of becoming an island because of an earthquake as New Orleans does of becoming a mountain because of another hurricane. |
Posted by: Grinder Dec 10 2005, 12:46 AM
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| It's crap, and it was going to be the only major thing I was going to houserule in spite of being a canon-whore, but then I read System Failure and ... Well, that's not for here. |
What will you change of SF?
Posted by: Grinder Dec 10 2005, 12:47 AM
| QUOTE (Taki) |
| - Shut Up, It's Magic (so don't try to understand) A good principle to use in earthdawn ... |
Yeah, but they have a much higher magic level then. And even at the high-maigc ED-times had a similar impact on the world take place.
Posted by: SL James Dec 10 2005, 04:25 AM
| QUOTE (Grinder @ Dec 9 2005, 06:46 PM) | ||
What will you change of SF? |
Pretty much everything that happens after the Crash, especially the NR coup and President Colloton. It's like Oliver North running for President in 1988 and winning.
I'm very disappointed in Fastjack's tone when he describes that part of the timeline in SR4, btw.
Posted by: Grinder Dec 10 2005, 10:30 AM
I enjoyed the idea of a military coup in UCAS. What's so bad about it? Escpecially when the New Revolution may be backed up by Ares and some other corps?
The history chapter of SR4 didn't have any sentences starting with "note,...", so i'm fine with it. 
Posted by: SL James Dec 10 2005, 05:26 PM
Type "Colloton" and "SL James" into search (look for individual posts) and know that what I've said is a fraction of what pisses me off about it. If you have any doubts, someone will probably come alone later and explain how much I am pissed off with how pathetically inept the coup and pretty much all of the political machinations were in SR4 and SF.
But to put it simply (because I am too busy running the f-ing coup right now from a dozen POVs): It's not about the coup; it's about the fact that it was so poorly written.
Posted by: FrankTrollman Dec 10 2005, 07:55 PM
OK, I did the search you asked for. In August you were happy that Colloton was president. And in the meantime, your primary concern seemed to be that you thought the description of who was acting president and when during the communications blackout was confusing.
What made you decide that you didn't like Colloton as president? I haven't been running in the UCAS since 2nd edition, so it never made much difference to me whether the UCAS had a dragon or a corporate sympathizer as commander in chief.
-Frank
Posted by: SL James Dec 10 2005, 09:00 PM
How did http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=9752&st=0&#entry325478 not answer your question?
It's not about her, dammit. At this point, I don't care who it is. It's... fuck it. I'm not going to sit here and do this.
Posted by: Demon_Bob Dec 11 2005, 06:57 AM
I'm still trying to figure out how they picked some of the boundaries between countries that they did. Sure some follow natural boundaries, latitude, or logitude lines, but many don't seem to have any logic what so ever.
Posted by: SL James Dec 11 2005, 07:43 AM
hahaha
Many of them are or were (PCC/Ute border, Seattle/Salish) highways/interstates, which is just... Yeah.
Posted by: Drace Dec 12 2005, 07:01 AM
Okay, I have a question about the coup. The sr4 book said they failed, but everyone on the boards says that they succeeded? Did they, and my book has a misprint, or is there something in SF that explains this (I don't have a copy yet)?
Posted by: Oracle Dec 12 2005, 07:03 AM
Well, the coup itself failed. Technically. But it was planned to fail. You have to read between the lines.
Posted by: Drace Dec 12 2005, 07:29 AM
Damn it, now I need SF, damn, SR books are like an addiction.
Posted by: Oracle Dec 12 2005, 07:41 AM
Fanpro's Sales Department will love to hear that.
Posted by: Rajaat99 Dec 12 2005, 04:58 PM
Wow... LA is an island?
I've always loved Canon, but I might have to go off canon.
What happened to Saito, by the way? Did he just mysteriously die like Art and Cross?
Posted by: blakkie Dec 12 2005, 06:07 PM
| QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ Dec 12 2005, 10:58 AM) |
| Wow... LA is an island? I've always loved Canon, but I might have to go off canon. |
As it is briefly described old LA is not an island, but the new one is. The [NA scale] map appears to show the Rolling Hills and a few other highpoints as islands around what is now the center of LA, and LA is marked on that map as now on the ridge north of the current LA.
However i'd expect future canon "clarification" of Fastjack's offhand comment about LA and the crude detail of the map.
| QUOTE |
| What happened to Saito, by the way? Did he just mysteriously die like Art and Cross? |
Details are not given, just that he was basically deadweight that was cut loose due to shifting political winds. Do a 90-day Search for Saito, there is more discussion/speculation on it.
Oh, and Art's death wasn't that mysterious (see SF). Cross though is a one sentence summary blurb.
Posted by: Synner Dec 12 2005, 06:19 PM
There is very little mysterious about the deaths of Art and Cross. One was Thor shot by the Corporate Court and the other's plane crashed enroute to San Francisco.
Contrary to what has been said above by the time the CC had stood down from high alert after Valhalla fell and it learned of Winternight's true plans only after the Jormungand had been launched (by which time Cross could already have been in the air for hours) - the only thing that might be considered vaguely "mysterious" is what he was enroute to San Francisco to do. His plane crash gets considerably more than a one sentence sumary and is covered in the Aftermath section as is Ares reaction to his disappearance.
What happened to Saito remains unknown except that he's MIA. His network was badly hit in Operation Jormungand (see WN adventure seed) and then the Mjolnir nuke though...
Posted by: iron mouser Dec 12 2005, 06:33 PM
Hey SL James, not that you need any more ammo for your attack on SR4 Cali, but here are three more points to consider.
1. San Diego - Downtown San Diego is right off the water, so is the airport. Most of it will be gone. There are hills and such but a lot of canyons as well.
2. Take a look right above (North) of the Gulf of Mexico. Go in a little and you have the Salton Sea, the second lowest point in the state. We are talking about a region that is about 200 feet below sea level. And yet, it is dry. Maybe the Azzies built up the burm between the Gulf and the Sea? 
3. As interesting as it is to see what happened to LA, what about the Salinas River Valley? This is the submerged land south of Monterey. That is some good farm land in the northern part (not sure of the southern).
Anyway, thought I would add fuel to flames that we can hopefully us to remake Cali into something more logical ("Sorry there was a fingerprint on the transfer that we used to make the map. It is all better now.").
Posted by: blakkie Dec 12 2005, 06:46 PM
The Cali map gets real wacky on the south end. Though it's hard to tell exactly what is going on there because of scale, the farther inland stuff is really weird. I think they meant San Diego as the same deal as LA, the higher land off to the side is now marked as being the city because downtown by the coast is no longer land. In any event the subsidence was not entirely even, perhaps even an inland syncline.
Posted by: SL James Dec 12 2005, 08:43 PM
Something happened to Saito between 2065 and 2070, but he's still around in Aftershocks.
Thanks, mouser, but there's really nothing to make my impression any lower of Fanpro because of it. It's like kicking a corpse.
Posted by: Rajaat99 Dec 13 2005, 07:37 PM
I'm going to have to take a look at SF, so far it sounds... Not Good.
Posted by: Athenor Dec 13 2005, 08:59 PM
SF is the best Shadowrun book I've read in years... Hands down.
And I just want to mention one thing before I set up to enter the argument:
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| The amount of earth moved to create that kind of submersion would be able to fit about three Chicxulub craters (the crater in the Yucatan whose creation destroyed 70% of all life on Earth some 65 million years ago). The geologic events required to generate that kind of structural change from earthquakes would result in tsunamis that would have devastated all coastal regions of the Pacific - as well as tremors that would have been destructive as far away as Europe. We're talking "The Earth got hit with a meteor the size of Texas" sort of thing. Which would be fine, but nowhere else is the world described as having been destroyed by a thermonuclear holocaust caused by geologic destruction. -Frank |
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| Yeah, but that's Ghost Dance-level magic. |
Which is what happened on the day of Crash 2.0, wouldn't you say?
Lesse.
1) The tectonic nukes were contained, 2nd (reported) time in history this has happened.
2) Thousands, if not millions, of metahuman souls were ripped from their bodies. That would be like creating a worldwide background count, if the #'s weren't spread so thin.
3) As far as I can decipher, the Resonance and dissonance are both magical in nature, almost as if they come from the metaplanes in some weird, twisted way (belief in the matrix = faith = channeled mental ability to manipulate those things you interact with = magic). It might be a stretch, but damnit if it's not how I'm seeing things. Well, the single greatest expressions of Resonance and Dissonance were on that day, in the center of one of the greatest collections of human souls (projected) ever. That's a lot of mojo. Add to that Jorgumand, if it was fueled by dissonance echoes, probably carried that to much more people than ever before, exposing them to "metamagic" of a sort.
4) The EMP nukes were twisted, manipulated, and subverted in an exceedingly massive way, enough to change how the actual atoms inside would react when giving off an energy release. Molecular-level magics are potent already, this was probably off the scale.
So. In the span of exactly 1 hour, you have all this magic being set off, channeled, inhibited, released, and spread through the entirety of metahumanity, save for one forward-thinking dragon. I don't know about you, but I think that would frag up the world just a tad, no?
I'm not saying it makes you able to write off what happened in CalFree. I am saying that stranger stuff has happened.
Personally, I can visualize the chain reactions caused by that release of sheer energy and emotion doing a -lot- more damage to the world than just shifting around the mountains of Southern California. And I think that's what the writers have in mind too. After all, I don't think SF said that all the tectonic plate nukes were found, did it?
Anyways. Blame the writers, whatever, perhaps I'm a fanboy. But SF was unlike anything that had been seen in Shadowrun, both for scale and visibility to the average schmo. It was the apocolypse of Shadowrun, its "time of Judgement," if you will. Only SR did what I hoped White Wolf would -- they are going to show what the world is like after the apocalypse.. Or, at least, after the first heralds start showing up.
Edited because I can't remember if Mjolnir were the tectonic or the EMP nukes. Probably a few other inconsistancies in there like that... Read the message not the details.
Posted by: FrankTrollman Dec 13 2005, 09:18 PM
| QUOTE |
| Which is what happened on the day of Crash 2.0, wouldn't you say? |
Sure. I'll give you that. But California sunk in 2069, and the Crash 2.0 was in 2065. It seems like those events were proximal to each other because one happened just before the timeline jump and the other happened just before jumping back into active time, but they were actually farther apart than the YotC probe race and the Yametetsu landing on Mars.
-Frank
Posted by: Athenor Dec 13 2005, 09:24 PM
... Oh.
Damn you and your logic! Foiled.... *facepalm*
Yeah, that is a bit far off to be residual aftershocks.
Posted by: Rajaat99 Dec 13 2005, 09:45 PM
So, it sounds like SF is just a book that transitions SR3 to SR4, so if I plan on staying with SR3, is there ANY reason to get SF?
Posted by: Athenor Dec 13 2005, 09:53 PM
o.O
Well, on the most bare of stats, it gives rules for 2 of the nastiest toxins in the game in SR3 form...
But yeah. As someone who likes both SR3 and 4, I think SF is a nice volume to have. Someone'll homebrew Wireless rules for SR3 (if they haven't yet), and the combining of hermetic and shamantic magics started in SOTA: 2064, so it really isn't a very jarring transition... So it would help, contextually, to seed your SR3 games.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Dec 13 2005, 11:22 PM
Well, assuming you stay in SR3, you have 5 years before it's the SR timeline anyway. ( That is, if time doesn't stand still through some miracle of metamagic/gamemaster Fiat). Despite setting up the changes in SR4, System failure is an entirely 3rd edition book. The plot hooks and develpments that happen there will effect the SR world whatever edition you play. Heck, I advise doing it that way even if you pick up SR4. There are a hell of a lot of interesting plots after the second crash, that are sort of glossed over by skipping 5 years. 5 of hte most chaotic years since the first matrix crash. Some Heavy level shit will be going down in those 5 years, especially what with all teh corps competing to set up the wireless matrix grids. Too much fun to be had in 65, to just skip it.
Posted by: SL James Dec 14 2005, 12:12 AM
The crash was in 2064, not '65.
I should clarify my position. The Ghost Dance only caused a handful of dormant volcanoes to erupt. The earthquake moved billions of tons of earth into the œther. It would make the GGD pale in comparison.
The tectonic nukes is its own brand of bullshit. I hate SF. It is a special type of nonsense to have this earthshaking, edition-ending, five year leaping book be 33 pages shorter than a book on organizations in the sixth world. It is poorly written, and horribly edited, if it was edited at all towards the end. Too much is spent on the buildup to the Crash; the Crash fails to address in anything but the most base plot hooks what would happen as a result (e.g., Seattle running out of food by the 12th); and it is an insult to the intelligence of educated people to read the about what happens after the Crash. As you all know by know, to me the most insulting piece of trite crap is the section on the coup, which is illogical, poorly written, and lacks any apparent understanding of historical or political context in North American history and politics. I would be shocked if Jong could even tell me what Jefferson was discussing in that quote. I'll give you a hint; it didn't involve a military coup and the multiple assassinations of chiefs of state.
It is like SR4: Proof of what happens when you push something out the door before it's done, and I am only using it in its most base form if at all.
Posted by: Athenor Dec 14 2005, 12:46 AM
I sense much venom in your words, eh?
First, just because the Matrix "crashed," does not mean it was offline for any significant time period. The way it was written, the eggs seemed to be what kept the worm going... and the worms had a limited area of effect, cascading or no. No doubt a city like Seattle would've had all its eggs removed quickly, its most vital matrix lines reestablished soon after, and then the switch would be made to the Wireless setup to A) prevent such an attack and B) because it was easier than cleaning up the fragged up code spread over the RTG's. Plus, it would create the illusion of being secured from the Matrix, to keep such an incident from frying you -- After all, AR is just like running Cold Sim, or even Tortoise!
Yes, the tectonic nukes, on the surface, should not be able to move the plates. Tell any Sci-fi writer in the last half-century that, however, and they'll still use it as a plot device. At least in Shadowrun's defense, they explained that the EMP nukes were heavily altered by magic, and that the tectonic nukes were supposed to be as well... something stopped them.
You're also right that System Failure devotes the majority of it to leading up to the crash, and not to the reprocussions. I'd like to take this time to point you to Brainscan, and the Blackout of Seattle. Despite how many volumes could've been written on that incident, it wasn't the focus. The focus of System Failure was on The Singularity, and how Winternight screwed over Pax.
After that... it's your ballgame.
Part of my appeal in the Mechwarrior: Dark Age plot was seeing what happened in the jump of 60 years the game took. Finding out what happened, all that. This is the same premise happening in SR4 -- The biggest events are there... but for those of us living on the street, the intricies still need to be unearthed... And the shadow community is as much in the dark as we are.
I don't hold that against System Failure, or the current writers. Indeed, I savor the opportunity of seeing the aftermath, and deciphering the cause. It's an entertaining game, if pulled off right, and I'm not about to force it.
And you are right.. the coup part was a bit weak for as big as it should've been. We saw.. what, 30 seconds? More will come out on that, I assure you.
Posted by: SL James Dec 14 2005, 04:57 AM
I couldn't care less anymore what is officially written about the coup. It is SO irreparably FUBAR that I am not bothering to wait to see how it's filled-out, spun, retconned or whatever the f is done to it.
But, venom? Nah... I've only said I hated it over the last three months. If a friend hadn't bought it for me, I'd demand my money back. But she likes it, and I don't, so it's not really up to me.
Posted by: SL James Dec 14 2005, 08:08 AM
| QUOTE (Athenor) |
| First, just because the Matrix "crashed," does not mean it was offline for any significant time period. The way it was written, the eggs seemed to be what kept the worm going... and the worms had a limited area of effect, cascading or no. No doubt a city like Seattle would've had all its eggs removed quickly, its most vital matrix lines reestablished soon after, and then the switch would be made to the Wireless setup to A) prevent such an attack and B) because it was easier than cleaning up the fragged up code spread over the RTG's. Plus, it would create the illusion of being secured from the Matrix, to keep such an incident from frying you -- After all, AR is just like running Cold Sim, or even Tortoise! |
I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and guess that neither you nor anyone writing for the SR line knows the first thing about computers and networks. That... That's just ignorant.
Posted by: Athenor Dec 14 2005, 11:26 AM
I do know a decent amount about computers and networking, although not so much about high-end servers, which I'm in the process of learning about.
SR's never been hard on how the reality of code works.. It doesn't have to be, as the stuff they talk about has quite a bit of fiction and fantasy woven into it. As I said earlier, my personal belief is that a good chunk of The Matrix is influenced by magic --- too many minds in there, and the whole nature of the resonance/dissonance war sounded like that magic trying to break through of the rigidity it was birthed under.
The evidence is there that the crash did not bring everythign to a screeching halt for 5 years, or even a month. News reports of the immediate post-singularity were being desiminated. Hell, the information on the coup itself was supposed to have happened the day after the Singularity, and someone managed to watch that!
The EMP's (which did the crashing, remember, Jorgumand was designed to make the Matrix Pax's personal playground) was designed to fry power suppolies and such, not the actual hardware. Replacing those wouldn't be terribly easy (about the same as recovering power to a city after a natural disaster), but given the proper motivation, it could be done quickly. Then the wireless stuff was put in relatively painlessly as it was easier than trying to fix up the old systems from the lingering effects of Jorgumand tearing up the code (and yes, I know you can't just randomly mess with a program's code in real life.. but this is SR, and code holds more weight and importance as almost being like a living thing.. See Morgan/Magera...)..
As I said. System shock is written from the perspective of someone in 2065, trying to figure out what the heck's going on through the spottiness of the matrix. Given how vital the Matrix was to SR life, it would have been brought back into power relatively quickly -- And companies who were on the forefront to bring it back online would rule the day. The hard lines, the remnants of the old Matrix would not just dissapear -- they would probably just be used for power transmission, city utilities, highly valuable info for PLTG's... But the WMI would have provided an immediate way to get people their "fix," without having to fix up the old hardlines.. And at the same time get business and wage slave "faith" in the corporations back under their control.
Posted by: Synner Dec 14 2005, 02:45 PM
For the record the Crash was not universal nor did it damage different grids to the same degree. Some grids were devastated (San Fran, Boston, Singapore) and hit by both Jormungand and the EMP strikes. Others got off lightly (because Jormungand was drawn to high-connectivity areas) and systems were returned to normal functioning within hours. Most fell somewhere in between catastrophic system failure and serious damage. The final eggs several months to track down and eliminate and were one of the reasons (conveniently) cited for switching to a new Wireless grid system.
The true reason the WM was implemented rather than simply reconstructing the old grids (many of which remain interfaced with the WM network) is simply that its seen as a much more profitable venture for corporations (all those juicy infrastructure construction).
Despite SL James' opinion, and the editing flaws the book does indeed contain, feedback from fans and reviewers has been overwhelmingly positive. Sales results have also been exceptional and System Failure continues to top both online store's charts and distributor sales. Most people realize that System Failure intended to do exactly what it does - ie. culminate in the Singularity and Winternight's apocalypse. It wraps up several major storylines but also lightly sketches in the elements of the aftermath that we intend to play with later, while still leaving the door open for those who don't want to jump the 5 years to do as they please in the wake of the Crash 2.0.
And for anyone interested out there, one of the reason SF writers have and will continue to use the nuclear devices on faultlines schtick is because it is based on military and scientific studies - specifically a Cold War Russian failsafe against Chinese land invasion called "tectonic resonance triggers". The nuke is not meant to cause an earthquake, but when placed in an appropriate tectonic pressure point with certain geological characteristics and in an appropriately shaped cavity, the shockwave/vibration can set up a cascading resonance loop in the neighboring plates and amplify the natural tectonic stress to the point of a geological event... or you could just call it bullshit.
Posted by: Athenor Dec 14 2005, 03:35 PM
o.O
the Russians actually implemented such a doomsday weapon? Or was it just planned?
Where can we find more info on this? I'm... wow, I wanna see the math and such behind that. =)
Posted by: Synner Dec 14 2005, 05:18 PM
It was never implemented though references to test detonations and resulting quakes can be found in several publications from fringe stuff to serious academic material.
The most famous public references is an often-reproduced quote from the Moscow News in the mid-Nineties:
| QUOTE |
| "A former ranking officer of the KGB in Azerbeijan has disclosed that Moscow secretly conducted exotic weapons research into tectonic arms—weapons that can cause and control earthquakes. Lt. Col. Akif Gasanov claims: "The information I received seemed fantastic. Certain scientists at the Academy of Sciences were working on problems associated with earthquakes. . . .[They] asserted that they could control and initiate earthquakes. . . . Gasanov mentions a series of quakes in the late 1980s—occurring from India to Central Asia—were the result of tectonic weapons tests." |
Or this from Pravda:
| QUOTE |
| Tectonic weapons. (...) Military departments of Russia and the USA strongly reject such a possibility at present. However, Professor E. Kerimov of the Earth Physics Institute believes that scheduled natural disasters are quite real. Yet, official departments reject the existence of all above-mentioned weapons. |
There are other interesting quotes from American officials too, including one from Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, that's been reproduced ad nauseum by every conspiracy theorist on the web:
| QUOTE |
| "Others are engaging even in an eco type of terrorism, whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes or volcanos remotely, through the use of electromagnetic waves." |
Personally I'm fond of the fact that American lawmakers took this seriously enough to put something under the Space Preservation Act of 2001. Look under the Definitions of "exotic weapons systems" (B - vii), http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/hr2977.html (admittedly this one is space-based).
Put "tectonic arms" or "tectonic weapons" in Google and you'll find dozens of links to the flaky stuff.
Shift through it and you start finding the really wierd stuff such as formal scientific papers by contemporary Azerbeijani sismologists and physicists (in academic journals) referring to research done on seismic resonance and EMP effects on tectonic activity- research dating back prior to 1990 (when the USSR began allowing academic exchange) or the interesting stuff from the Russian (then-Soviet) Academy of Sciences released in the early Nineties about tectonic resonance and stimulation of seismic resonance such as http://www.gisdevelopment.net/aars/acrs/1997/ts10/ts10008pf.htm- Kasumov F. K., Asianov F. A. which quotes:
| QUOTE |
| Artificial subsurfase explosion(nuclear and large-scaleindustrial explosions), |
Here's an admittedly flaky site that provides connections to a bunch of other interesting fringe and not-so-fringe sites: http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/tectonic_weapons.html
All these people could be blowing smoke - but contrary to some people's opinions, at least it's well-researched bullshit.
When I get home I'll post a couple of book references too, one from a former KGB man on secret weapon research in Soviet Russia.
Posted by: SL James Dec 21 2005, 01:24 AM
With no due respect to Synner just because something is popular doesn't make it good. Moreover, the reason it pisses me off so much is partly based on the same reason that the Matrix has annoyed and frustrated some computer-saavy people: because coming from a learned perspective, it makes no sense.
See, the very theme and quote at issue and the actions surrounding (for example Tree, which is by far the weakest part of the whole book and does in fact drag the rest of it down) is, as someone who has done the reading and knows the context, appalls me. It's like quoting Ghandi to justify mass murder. It's just that stupid. And like I said, because it is so weak, and so bad, it does drag everything else around it down. All the aftershock stuff involving North America? Pthbbbt. Sorry, no dice. All that really managed to be done was to kill off and disappear a couple of NPCs. BFD.
I'd be shocked if the people who really like it have a clue about what really happened. Filling in holes is fine, filling in disjointed crap is annoying and pisses me off.
BTW, Jefferson was referring to Shays' Rebellion, in case you were wondering, and he was extolling the virtues of how a group of people acted in defense of their rights when the Massachusetts government was abusing its authority, and it was written in the hopes that maybe now the Constitution would be ratified (which would have prevented some of the abuses, such as sending people to debtors' jails) along with a bill of rights to create a government where the rights of the people were upheld at a point when the fate of the country was in serious question.
It wasn't "storm the capital and kill the leaders." Not that it would matter, the day before a national election in Washington is dead time. No one's around. That's just as stupid and ignorant as these know-nothing assholes who quote Shakespeare's "First, kill all the lawyers" without mentioning that the whole sentence is, "if tyranny is to prevail you must first kill all the layers" because they failed in their duty to the people. It's this half-assed, flippant process of writing a book which I have almost no doubt was done in a hurry because SR4 was already out in PDF and LE from Gencon. This super-campaign book was 33 pages shorter than Loose Alliances and yet was supposed to give an overview of these huge five years, which is clearly did not. Yeah, it was worth it. So is punching myself in the nuts.
So, I stand proudly in the minority because I know better.
Posted by: Synner Dec 21 2005, 12:02 PM
| QUOTE (SL James @ Dec 21 2005, 01:24 AM) |
| With no due respect to Synner just because something is popular doesn't make it good. |
No worries, you learn to curtail your expectations when debating with some people.
I was referring to the fact that the book as a whole is proving popular. Most people have not let their disappointment with some of the book's flaws taint their outlook on the whole product. As far back as I can remember people have complained about one part or another of a given sourcebook for one reason or another, some more justified than others, there's no reason this book would be any different. Though you obviously have other gripes with the book, you're focusing on one small section of the aftermath (regardless of how important it is to your specific game) which loosely seeds political changes that manifest in SR4 and you're extending your dislike for that particular section to the whole book. Nobody's questioning your opinion, just stating that other people take a wider view and are looking at what they take away from the book as a whole.
| QUOTE |
| Moreover, the reason it pisses me off so much is partly based on the same reason that the Matrix has annoyed and frustrated some computer-saavy people: because coming from a learned perspective, it makes no sense. |
As usual I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to at this point in your tirade, but on the off-chance it's with regard to the "tectonic weapons" post, I'll just say that I tend to regard official publications from established academics as "learned" sources and leave it at that.
All that's needed for events to occur as described as System Failure describes is for Winternight to believe that nuclear resonance triggers work. As is, for whatever reason, it doesn't (maybe because it shouldn't, maybe because something stopped it) so I fail to see a problem. It's perfectly adjustable to whatever level of "realism" you think appropriate to your campaign - and whether you take existing and references to these weapons as serious or not.
| QUOTE |
| This super-campaign book was 33 pages shorter than Loose Alliances and yet was supposed to give an overview of these huge five years, which is clearly did not. |
Since I believe no such thing was ever announced by FanPro or the authors, I have no idea where you got that expectation. I'm sure you can provide a quote to that effect though.
The only thing that was announced officially during the build up to SR4 was that System Failure would lay the groundwork for the changes that occur during the 5 year jump and lay the seeds for future plots.
Posted by: Grinder Dec 21 2005, 01:50 PM
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| The only thing that was announced officially during the build up to SR4 was that System Failure would lay the groundwork for the changes that occur during the 5 year jump and lay the seeds for future plots. |
And that there will be a second book, Critical Error. Much like Brainscan and Renraku Arcology: Shutdown.
Posted by: JongWK Dec 21 2005, 04:00 PM
IIRC, that plan was publicly scrapped a long time before System Failure was released, so I think Synner's point stands.
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| Pretty much everything that happens after the Crash, especially the NR coup and President Colloton. It's like Oliver North running for President in 1988 and winning. |
Simply not true. Colloton is a national hero, thanks to the Arcology crisis and her publicly known role in the 2064 Coup. That she ran against a corrupt wimp didn't hurt either.
| QUOTE |
| As you all know by know, to me the most insulting piece of trite crap is the section on the coup, which is illogical, poorly written, and lacks any apparent understanding of historical or political context in North American history and politics. I would be shocked if Jong could even tell me what Jefferson was discussing in that quote. I'll give you a hint; it didn't involve a military coup and the multiple assassinations of chiefs of state. |
Right, I'm poor ignorant foreigner who couldn't possibly know anything about American politics or history. Verily, the American freelancers and editors involved in System Failure should be spanked for their ignorance too.
I'll give you a hint: Jefferson's original intent and context didn't matter at all to fascist demagogues conspiring to overthrow several governments. The use of someone's words for a different purpose is done everywhere. Hell, if we hadn't cremated him, Artigas would be spinning in his grave after everything that was done in his name by Marxist terrorists and right-wing military dictators.
I'm satisfied with Tree of Liberty, and I stand by it. Could Tree of Liberty have been written differently? Sure, we've discussed this before. I've received criticism and congratulations for that section, and I appreciate both of them. What I don't appreciate at all are personal attacks like yours.
Posted by: Grinder Dec 21 2005, 04:14 PM
| QUOTE (JongWK) |
| IIRC, that plan was publicly scrapped a long time before System Failure was released, so I think Synner's point stands. |
Point for you
Posted by: Synner Dec 21 2005, 11:19 PM
| QUOTE (Grinder) | ||
Point for you |
Actually the original plan announced at GenCon the previous year was to do a double wammy with an event book followed by a campaign book. These were to be called Critical Error and System Crash. Nothing was actually said about their contents (especially since SR4 was a well-lept secret), except that it would be big. Most people assumed it would be the next/final chapter in the AI storylines.
When SR4 and the 2005 release schedule were announced at GAMA, the project had evolved to the single book that what would be System Failure and the first details of what it would involve began to be made public. More speculation followed but nothing specific came to light until the SR4 blog kicked off with the information on the Crash 2.0. By that time System Failure was written and in editing.
Posted by: mintcar Dec 21 2005, 11:41 PM
SL James: Although I don´t share your outrage, and didn´t know any of the historical stuff you bring up (being an ignorant foreigner), I did find your rants on this subject amusing. Almost of stand-up quality. Don´t get me wrong, I mean that in a possitive way. People being ass-holes and pointing out something stupid while making some points, is funny.
Too bad you´re so genuinly convinced of your own superiority and grandure. If you took yourself a bit less seriously, and gave your criticism tongue in cheek, I´d have given you applause if I agreed or not.
Having a humble streak is not foremost something moral or political correct, it´s just intelligent. Whatever you know can proove to be wrong, you know. If you look back at yourself 10 years back, and what you thought and said then—you propably think as little of that as you do of some of us dumpshockers and what we say. What does that tell you?
Posted by: Mr.Platinum Dec 22 2005, 01:22 AM
I just can't waite to find out what happened in the UnderWorld, what ever happened to that old Goat Akira Watada?
Posted by: JongWK Dec 22 2005, 03:39 AM
| QUOTE (Synner @ Dec 21 2005, 08:19 PM) | ||||
Actually the original plan announced at GenCon the previous year was to do a double wammy with an event book followed by a campaign book. These were to be called Critical Error and System Crash. Nothing was actually said about their contents (especially since SR4 was a well-lept secret), except that it would be big. Most people assumed it would be the next/final chapter in the AI storylines. When SR4 and the 2005 release schedule were announced at GAMA, the project had evolved to the single book that what would be System Failure and the first details of what it would involve began to be made public. More speculation followed but nothing specific came to light until the SR4 blog kicked off with the information on the Crash 2.0. By that time System Failure was written and in editing. |
Ah, my memory's playing games with me again. Thanks for the clarification.
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Dec 22 2005, 06:45 AM
| QUOTE (Mr.Platinum) |
| I just can't waite to find out what happened in the UnderWorld, what ever happened to that old Goat Akira Watada? |
There's a number of personalities that I'm waiting to see how they resolve. Watada, Eiji Yakamura (that skag on Z-O that iwns 20% of MTC), Green Lucifer/Ancients, Yuri Shibanokuji, Samantha Villiers, Leonard Aurelius, Rowena O'Malley. I hate waiting.
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