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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Ambidexterity Edge in Melee?

Posted by: Velocity Oct 1 2003, 03:49 PM

If a character possesses the 'ambidexterity' Edge, what effect(s)--if any--does it have on hand-to-hand combat, specifically for the purposes of attacking multiple opponents? This situation occurred in my game last night and since I couldn't find any clear indication in either the BBB or the Cannon Companion, I decided to see what you all thought.

For the record, the character in question had the full (8-point) Edge, was unarmed (fisticuffs) and was trying to simultaneously attack two opponents.

Thanks in advance!

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 1 2003, 04:00 PM

You don't get any benefits from using fists with ambidexterity. Multiple opponents follow a seperate set of rules in the melee combat section (I think you take a +2 on your second TN and simply make multiple combat rolls).

[edit] Specificly, page 122-123 of the SR3 big black book.[/edit]

Posted by: Velocity Oct 1 2003, 04:05 PM

Yeah, it's +2 per extra opponent attacked and then there's the 'friends in melee' modifier on top of that.

I was wondering if, during one Complex Action, a character with this Edge could attack two targets without incurring the +2 penalty.

Since the BBB is mute on the subject--mentioning only the modifiers you referred to, TG--and the Cannon Companion speaks only of ranged combat, I went with, "sorry, you still get the +2."

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 1 2003, 04:08 PM

I'd say you were dead on. Hand to hand combat is one of those nebulous things where you're considered to be using quite a lot of your body to begin with. Just because you're a little better with one hand than most people probably isn't that big of a difference.

The +2 is a multiple target penalty. The example given for ambidexterity talks about removing the +2 modifier for firing two weapons, but doesn't mention the multiple target penalty. I'd say the MTP stays (unless I'm missing something somewhere), like you ruled.

Posted by: Drain Brain Oct 1 2003, 04:11 PM

Logically, regardless of one's ambidexterity, I doubt they could attack two opponents simultaneously. YOU try punching two people at the same time... Even if you were dextrous enough to hit them, the force would be nowhere near what it would with a single hand, because you punch with your whole body mass.

Now, there are styles that don't do that - Wing Tsun comes to mind - but I guess its a matter of house ruling and what style the character is using. I definately wouldn't allow it with brawling/streetfighting/boxing or any of the power intensive styles, more likely, though, with Kung fu derivatives or the oriental, flowing styles.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 1 2003, 04:30 PM

Ambidexterity edge only lets you get the benefit of having two weapons. Remember that if you're using two pistols to shoot at two targets, you may not get the +2 for using two weapons, but you're still getting the +2 on the second target for it being a second target. The human brain isn't designed to do multiple things at once very well.

~J

Posted by: Velocity Oct 1 2003, 05:32 PM

QUOTE

TinkerGnome wrote:
I'd say you were dead on.

<snip>

QUOTE

The example given for ambidexterity talks about removing the +2 modifier for firing two weapons, but doesn't mention the multiple target penalty. I'd say the MTP stays (unless I'm missing something somewhere), like you ruled.

QUOTE

Drain Brain wrote:
YOU try punching two people at the same time... Even if you were dextrous enough to hit them, the force would be nowhere near what it would with a single hand, because you punch with your whole body mass.

QUOTE

Kagetenshi wrote:
Ambidexterity edge only lets you get the benefit of having two weapons.

Excellent. Thanks very much everybody, I really appreciate the help + support.

Posted by: 252 Oct 2 2003, 03:58 PM

I just wanted to know. Who thinks that the eight point ambidextrous edge is way over priced. I mean as the GM of my game I could rule it down, I was just wondering if anyone had a lot of experience with people running with it.

I guess I just like at the rules and see what a person can accomplish and I'm not sure if it is that great of a benefit. However I don't have many people using it(Which is good, because ambidextrixity is a rare trait as far as I know.)

2:52:16
Yes, Yes, I know that means that I'm running faster then 20 mph, but what 'bout kph?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 2 2003, 04:41 PM

Ambidexterity is sick. Seriously so. Throwing nine dice with melee weapons at chargen without having to take a second skill is pretty nasty, as is dual pistol-wielding. Anything under eight points would make it a nigh-universal trait, IMO.

~J

Posted by: Velocity Oct 2 2003, 08:49 PM

QUOTE

252 wrote:
I just wanted to know. Who thinks that the eight point ambidextrous edge is way over priced. I mean as the GM of my game I could rule it down, I was just wondering if anyone had a lot of experience with people running with it.

QUOTE

Kagetenshi wrote:
Ambidexterity is sick. Seriously so.

Speaking as someone who GMs a PC with that Edge, I have to COMPLETELY agree with Kagetenshi. Although I'm an experienced GM with over a decade of gaming under my belt, I never foresaw the extreme lethality of full ambidexterity and dual-wielding heavy pistols in SR3. I can't really put it any better than Kag did, but it bears repeating: the eight-point cost of this Edge is entirely justified.

Note that I said "justified"; this Edge is not, IMHO, unbalancing or cheesy or munchkinism or whatever. It's reasonable and includes a built-in check: the character must have 8 points worth of Flaws to back it up (that's more than quadraplegic is worth, for criminey's sake). Regardless of the cost, the PC in my game--Nova, a samurai--adores his Edge and wouldn't trade it for anything. It's seriously sweet.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 2 2003, 09:23 PM

If you're using point-build you only really need two points of flaws, but then it's the equivalent cost of a maxed chargen skill. It's fine as it is, IMO; making it cheaper would break the balance into itty-bitty little pieces.

~J

Posted by: Nova Oct 2 2003, 09:25 PM

It's true. I do. And I wouldn't.

Nova

Posted by: 252 Oct 3 2003, 03:19 AM

Well thank you for your advise. I'm sure that you are right.

Posted by: Cain Oct 3 2003, 03:55 AM

I do think it's on the expensive side; but it's only overpriced if you're not creating a one-trick pony.

Let's say you want the disgusting combination of a troll adept with Edged Weapons 6 and Off-hand Clubs (Riot Shield) 6. If you bought that character Ambidexterity at 6 or 8 points, you'd be worse off than if you simply paid for the skills. Ambidexterity is simply not necessary for that particular dual-weapon combination.

Now, for someone who wants to dual-wield katanas *and* pistols *and* SMG's, then the edge is useful and well-priced. But if you're simply looking for a small bonus here and there, it's not worth it, no.

Posted by: Sammiel Oct 3 2003, 04:24 AM

silly rabbit, I'd make that troll adept use a monowhip, which is the only one-handed +2 reach weapon afaik. =D