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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Who's Ryan Mercury?

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 6 2006, 04:04 AM

I heard he's Nadja Daviar's lover and close friend. He's the leader of Acquisitions, Inc. and a drake. I've also heard he's a Mary Sue type, and I believe it, judging by these facts.

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 6 2006, 04:09 AM

It's Assets, Inc.

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 6 2006, 04:16 AM

Edited. And who the hell is he, besides what I just said? I can't take him seriously, because I keep thinking of Freddie Mercury and Cromartie high school.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 6 2006, 04:25 AM

He's someone that dumpshockers love to hate, partially because he has a Ally spirit shaped like a motorcycle.

Posted by: Jrayjoker Jan 6 2006, 04:28 AM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

I heard he's Nadja Daviar's lover and close friend. He's the leader of Acquisitions, Inc. and a drake. I've also heard he's a Mary Sue type, and I believe it, judging by these facts.

Mary Sue type? Never heard that particular saying before.

He was the Big D's pet

[ Spoiler ]

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 6 2006, 04:32 AM

A Mary Sue is someone who lives out the author's or maybe even the consumer's fantasies.

Posted by: Jrayjoker Jan 6 2006, 04:33 AM

Thanks, where is that from?

Posted by: Ancient History Jan 6 2006, 04:41 AM

It's a fairly common occurence with bad authors - Steven King is notorious for it, for example.

I honestly can't say whether Ryan Mercury qualifies as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue, because I haven't gotten that vibe from Jak Koke's other writing.

Now, Talon on the other hand...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 6 2006, 04:42 AM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

He's someone that dumpshockers love to hate, partially because he has a Ally spirit shaped like a motorcycle.

As AH alluded to, you've got the wrong guy. Right charge, wrong crime.

~J

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 6 2006, 04:59 AM

What's "~]"?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 6 2006, 05:07 AM

I'm not sure about tilde-close-bracket, but "~J" is the shortened form of my signature—"~Jonathan R. Woodworth" (sometimes sans tilde, particularly on legal documents and copyright notices).

~J

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 6 2006, 05:26 AM

Oh... that's a J. Sorry.

Posted by: Deamon_Knight Jan 6 2006, 05:30 AM

Doesn't he have the late big D's freespirit soul trapped in his cyberzombie body? Or is that someone else?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 6 2006, 05:30 AM

That was Billy Burnout.

He had altogether too much to do with that, though.

~J

Posted by: Jrayjoker Jan 6 2006, 06:01 AM

Oh, and he's a sneaky snake too. Silent way adept, that is.

Posted by: Ancient History Jan 6 2006, 06:20 AM

It's not that Ryan Mercury was a really, really powerful adept...it's that he was raised and personally trained by Dunkelzahn, was banging the hot-elf-chick who happened to be VP of the UCAS and head of the Draco Foundation, and subsequently discovered he was actually a physical magician and a drake while saving the world.

If a player had made the same character, they'd be declared a munchkin, and so Ryan Mercury is a munchkin. But a Mary Sue? Eh. Jury's still out.

Posted by: Jrayjoker Jan 6 2006, 06:23 AM

What does Adam have to do with anything?

HA! I kill me!

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 6 2006, 06:58 AM

It isn't that Ryan Mercury was banging the VP of the UCAS it is that he forcibly subjected us poor readers to her dark brown nipples.

Posted by: Jrayjoker Jan 6 2006, 07:00 AM

Thanks, I was blocking sooooo much, and you all dredged it back up!

In case you haven't guessed emo, Ryan is a bit of a twink, and his mother dresses him funny.

Posted by: Oracle Jan 6 2006, 07:03 AM

Why do I have the image of Nadia Daviars legs in my mind?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 6 2006, 07:10 AM

Mmm… luscious gams…

~J

Posted by: Oracle Jan 6 2006, 07:11 AM

That's still a good one.

Posted by: RunnerPaul Jan 6 2006, 07:11 AM

Because she has nice gams?

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 6 2006, 07:56 AM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

Edited. And who the hell is he, besides what I just said? I can't take him seriously, because I keep thinking of Freddie Mercury and Cromartie high school.

QUOTE (emo samurai)

He's the leader of Acquisitions, Inc

uhh... you forgot to actually edit it . Clcik on the 'edit' button on your first actual post to edit. Not being snarky, just letting you know in case you didn't.

If oyu really want to know more about the SR setting, I'd suggest picking up a few of the old novels from used book stores or Amazon. If oyu're interested in the connected history to Earthdawn (the 4th world, in relation to the 6th world) try the Dragon Heart Trilogy (the one w/ Mercury), Black Madonna, and Worlds Without End.

If you want some more info from Dunk's will, try Tails you Lose, and The Forever Drug

If you want some more class, try anything by nigel Findley, like 2XS, and House of the Sun.

If oyu're more interested in the Matrix, Psychotrope and Technobabel were both pretty good as I recall.

Posted by: fourstring_samurai Jan 6 2006, 08:02 AM

nigel findley was the man. the way house of the sun ended...good god that guy could write (IMHO).

so, does anyone like anything about the munchkin's fantasy that mercury is?

also, are the details of the silent way in any sourcebooks? (sr3, i mean)

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 6 2006, 08:03 AM

QUOTE (fourstring_samurai)

also, are the details of the silent way in any sourcebooks? (sr3, i mean)

try SOTA 64 , and Magic in The Shadows

Neko is awesome

Posted by: Oracle Jan 6 2006, 08:05 AM

I thought Mercury was following some special path, which he learned from Dunkelzahn, that is not available to player characters....

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 6 2006, 08:15 AM

Path of the Power-Trip PC?

Posted by: PiXeL01 Jan 6 2006, 08:36 AM

Thought I thought Neko wasnt an adept at all, from what I understood from Never Trust an Elf.

...

Ryan Mercury (Never read anything with him, gladly I guess) reminds me of why I cant read anymore Drizzt Do'Urden books .... That guy is just too good at his thing.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 6 2006, 08:41 AM

the last few Drizzt books were lacking anyways, so you didn't miss much.

I never got to the 2nd and 3rd 'secrets of power' books, so I didin't een know that Neko was in them silly me. I was commenting on the write up on SOTA 64 and how he was portayed off of that in our games.

Posted by: Anythingforenoughnuyen Jan 6 2006, 08:44 AM

The Path of the Power-Tripping PC?

Here I would have to say, if a player had a character like that, it would not be a cut and dried case of twink-o-licious power tripping, rather, the issue would be decided on the circumstances, the context and intent.

If a player just out of the blue said-I want to make a character like R. "Q" M., when everyone else was playing normal Shadowrun characters, then it would not make since in the context of the game, and the player probably just wants to hijack the game for his own personal power trip.

But if the situation were different, if say, the player's last character had mastered all of the Elven Magic Pathways, and s/he knew that her next character was going to be a Great Dragon that awakens late and is trying to play catch up with the other established Great Wyrms in the Sixth World-then a character like Quicksilver would make since as a fun transition character to help the player get ready for his next big serious character.

So, as I am sure you can all see, it realy is just a matter of context and intent.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 6 2006, 08:59 AM

well for one, Dunk was not trying to catch up, he was one of the first few dragons to awaken, jsut a few months after Ryumyo.

Two, it was a joke (mostly)

Posted by: Anythingforenoughnuyen Jan 6 2006, 09:15 AM

If my post was misread, I am sorry. It was meant as a joke-I do not think that a character who has mastered all of the Elven Pathways of Magic is a suitable PC, nor do I think that a just awakened Great Dragon is a suitable PC, but I do think that a character like Quicksilver falls in the middle of that pack.

And I agree with your post, if there was a path that allowed a player to follow in Quicksilvers footsteps, then it would be best called the Path of Power-Tripping.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 6 2006, 09:22 AM

sorry, wasn't meaning to be testy. no prob

Posted by: Critias Jan 6 2006, 09:59 AM

QUOTE (PiXeL01)

Thought I thought Neko wasnt an adept at all, from what I understood from Never Trust an Elf.

Different Neko. The one from the novels (he was in 3 of the first 4, IIRC, 2/3 of the initial trilogy, plus being a major player in NTAE) is mundane, though he's very easily the "stereotypical physad type guy," regardless (sneaking, throwing knives, a suppressed submachine gun, athletics, etc). To me, the fact he was that badass as a mundane (and a largely uncybered one, IIRC), makes him even cooler.

"Neko" from Sota '64, as an Adept of the Silent Path/Invisible Way (as far as I'm concerned, two names for the same ideal), shouldn't really surprise anyone. I mean, Neko is Japanese for "cat," I believe -- so the fact that a ton of sneaky guys, in the still-occasionally-Jap-o-centric Shadowrun future, shouldn't come as any sort of shock.

In much the same vein, I largely doubt Ghost-Who-Walks-Inside is the only "Ghost" any more, there are probably two dozen "Blackjack" street names strutting around, etc, etc. That's one of the (many) downsides to the GI Joe sounding street names; all the cool ones are taken, and have been for about 20 years (in game).

Posted by: MYST1C Jan 6 2006, 10:01 AM

QUOTE (fourstring_samurai)

nigel findley was the man. the way house of the sun ended...good god that guy could write (IMHO).

I thought the end part of "House of the Sun" wasn't even written by Findley because he died before the book was finished (though no co-author has ever been named)?

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 6 2006, 10:42 AM

Thanks for clearing that up Critias. i agree on the names it can be a bit of a pain. Our group has gotten a bit of a kick seeing character names we've had pop up in source books though.

We have tried getting away from the "GI Joe" names a bit though , and go towards something you wouldn't feel quite as akward saying in a normal conversation. Not that "50 cent" really flows though, but we're going for more street name, less super hero. It says something to me that the (IMO) coolest 'runner' I've seen in any of the books was just called by his regular name.

Posted by: mfb Jan 6 2006, 11:11 AM

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

It says something to me that the (IMO) coolest 'runner' I've seen in any of the books was just called by his regular name.

fastjack is his real name? whoah! where'd you find that out?

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 6 2006, 11:32 AM

Dirk hoser!

besides that, I don't recall any appearances by Jack in any of the books I've read.

Although the short that AH did with him was awesome

Posted by: mfb Jan 6 2006, 11:48 AM

he was in Into the Shadows.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 6 2006, 12:03 PM

ah, well , see, never read that one. Hafta go pick up up now at my friendly local used book store.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jan 6 2006, 12:09 PM

Ah another Ryan mercury thread.
God some needs to write up a short story on how he dies, cause the fans hate him.

Posted by: Critias Jan 6 2006, 12:28 PM

I am inspired !!

And, yeah, Fistandantilus. I keep telling myself that the SOTA:64 guy isn't good old Neko from the books (and, the street name being as common as it no-doubt is, it's easy to believe). It'd really suck if it was him, and they turned him into an Adept, etc, etc. It's weird, but it would kind of take away from the character, for him to get that sort of thing from powers instead of just being that badass innately.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 6 2006, 12:43 PM

yeah, that makes sense. I'll have to pick up that book too I guess. We've been putting out more mundane, cybered down characters lately too. It's great ot be able to play them and have them survive, and even better to watch them thrive, beuase you know that it's mostly coming from smarts, not dice and tweeking rules.

Posted by: Critias Jan 6 2006, 12:57 PM

In SR3, since there's no skill cap, they can keep improving (albeit very slowly), to the point they've just got ridiculous dice to throw, etc, etc. And without foci or cyberware or decks or whatever to eat up all their cash, once they've got a few nice toys to get jobs done, every penny they earn can go into Lifestyles.

Bling bling!

Posted by: nezumi Jan 6 2006, 02:52 PM

QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)

God some needs to write up a short story on how he dies, cause the fans hate him.

Oh, good idea!! Have him die in a car bomb or from eating too many fatty foods.

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 6 2006, 11:23 PM

What's wrong with Nadja Daviar's brown nipples?

Posted by: mintcar Jan 6 2006, 11:34 PM

That some tan brown, omnipotent and irritating porn-star hunk is the one touching them when you read about them?

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 7 2006, 08:14 AM

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

Dirk hoser!

besides that, I don't recall any appearances by Jack in any of the books I've read.

Although the short that AH did with him was awesome

Fastjack appeared in Night's Pawn, IIRC, when he gets hired by the retired street sam to provide Matrix overwatch while said street sam breaks into the Renraku Arcology (long before Deus did his funky stuff), in order to talk to Samantha Villiers at a social function.

Posted by: fourstring_samurai Jan 7 2006, 08:45 AM

QUOTE

(M¥$T1C)
QUOTE (fourstring_samurai)
nigel findley was the man. the way house of the sun ended...good god that guy could write (IMHO).

I thought the end part of "House of the Sun" wasn't even written by Findley because he died before the book was finished (though no co-author has ever been named)?

he died in the final stages of proof reading. there's a point near the end of the book, which i think was intentional left uncorrected, where the ubiquitous frag is swapped for "fuck". i think that was where findley was when he passed.

QUOTE

(fistandantilus3.0)
the last few Drizzt books were lacking anyways, so you didn't miss much.

true, but the last sellswords book (about artemis entreri and jarlaxle) was freakin' great. very refreshing in many ways, i must say.

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 7 2006, 09:19 AM

How and when did Findley die? And as for Mercury, I'll have either my runners or the bound spirit of Nigel Findley kill him. With a cow from space.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 7 2006, 11:47 AM

Died: Feb. 19, 1995 of a heart attack

http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showcreator&creatorid=915

http://www.gopherp.com/ronin5.htm

"Even a fool can learn from his own mistakes. It takes a wise man to learn from the mistakes of others." -Nigel Findley

Posted by: mintcar Jan 7 2006, 12:19 PM

Nigel was the man

Posted by: Grinder Jan 7 2006, 12:19 PM

Those goold old times....

Back then, crap like Ryan Mercury wouldn't be possible, i'm sure.

Posted by: mintcar Jan 7 2006, 12:23 PM

Not sure. Wasn´t Wolf and Raven earlier than Derek? Raven had some Ryan Mercury tendencies I think. Fortunately he didn´t have a major part in those stories, and all the other characters were really cool.

(Not the book published in -98. but the short stories from Challenge Magazine the book is made from were among the earliest SR fiction written if Im not mistaken.)

Posted by: Grinder Jan 7 2006, 12:26 PM

That's the difference Ryan had a major part and was an important character.

Posted by: mintcar Jan 7 2006, 12:35 PM

The problem with characters like that is that it´s too easy to picture them being played by Steven Seagal.

Posted by: Grinder Jan 7 2006, 12:37 PM

Or worse: Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible. Or Pierce Brosnan as 007.

With magic!

Posted by: Sahandrian Jan 7 2006, 12:48 PM

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Jan 6 2006, 06:42 AM)

We have tried getting away from the "GI Joe" names a bit though , and go towards something you wouldn't feel quite as akward saying in a normal conversation. Not that "50 cent" really flows though

That gives me a horrible idea for a character name. Worse yet, several of my players would understand the reference.

Fist, from now on, in my mind you are "Fiddycentilus."

Foreigner's bad puns have nothing on mine.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 7 2006, 12:52 PM

's better than Fist anyways

Posted by: Ancient History Jan 7 2006, 01:42 PM

QUOTE (mintcar)

Michael Stackpole wrote the Wolf and Raven stories before the SR rules were finalized. A little leeway can be given, I think.

Posted by: JongWK Jan 7 2006, 02:02 PM

Every time someone mentions Ryan Mercury, I get a mental picture of Ben Affleck.

It's *that* bad.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 7 2006, 03:05 PM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

What's wrong with Nadja Daviar's brown nipples?

Ryan Mercury is a Magician's Way Adept which means that, by canon, he's pretty much useless. He is a Drake, which means that, by canon, he is pretty much useless. He a Dunkie as a mentor which is okay because that's an edge that Drakes can take. all it does is mean that other great dragons ~~won't be hunting him down~~ will be hunting him down less frequently. His Friend in High Places is the VP, which is okay, she can only do so much. He is head of Assets, Inc. which is okay, he's a corporate sellout.

Now, a standard 125 BP character build with all of these traits will be worthless in the shadows. There is no reason not to let anyone play Ryan Mercury, that person isn't a munchkin powergamer because Mercury is one of the most unoptmized characters possible.

But when the nipples come out he just has to die. Really, how many GMs out there would stand by while a PC fondles the Vice President's nipples? Orbital cow, man, orbital cow.

Posted by: Critias Jan 7 2006, 03:09 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Ryan Mercury is a Magician's Way Adept which means that, by canon, he's pretty much useless.

...

I disagree. I will only back up my disagreement by saying "you must play in very brief, not-much-karma-or-money-handed-out, games."

Posted by: Grinder Jan 7 2006, 03:23 PM

As presented in the novels Ryan Mercury has much much karma under his belt. When trying to build him during chargen, you'll need a lot more than 125 BPs.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jan 7 2006, 03:24 PM

at character creation he will be week liek Seth green, but with a Karma hot beef injection he will be like the Arnold i knew in the 80's.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 7 2006, 03:35 PM

Even with a great deal of karma, a normal magician can still outmagic him and a normal adept can still out adept him. With enough karma a MW adept can be awsome, yes, but he is always has to spend more karma than standard magic characters to be less awsome than they are.

Posted by: Grinder Jan 7 2006, 03:49 PM

Imo Ryan has so much karma that he can outmatch most "normal" magicians. And that's before he's using Dunkies Heart.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 7 2006, 03:58 PM

QUOTE (Grinder)

Or worse: Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible.

Hey hey hey, he did a good job on the first one. It's the second one, where they turned it into a generic action flick, that resembles our Mr. Mercury.

~J

Posted by: Lazarus Jan 7 2006, 04:05 PM

Well I have question about the Mary Sue character archtype. (haven't read the Ryan Mercury stuff, and I guess I'm glad I didn't.) What is the worst aspect of the Mary Sue? The all-powerful apsect, or the no negative traits aspect?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 7 2006, 04:10 PM

Neither. Sometimes Mary Sues aren't quite all-powerful (though they get everything done anyway), and they usually have a few "flaws" thrown in of the sorts that get listed when HR asks you what your main weaknesses are for your annual review ("he's a great guy, but he just works too doggone hard!").

No, the worst part of such a character is that you're continually being bludgeoned in the face by the author's metaphorical phallus. Worse yet, the character is usually obviously set up as "the guy you're supposed to like".

~J

Posted by: Sahandrian Jan 7 2006, 04:16 PM

QUOTE (Lazarus)

In most fanfiction, it's the total lack of negative traits that really marks a Mary Sue. I find that to be the more annoying aspect, too.

http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm (Mostly meant for females and fanfiction characters, but applies fairly reliably to others.)

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 7 2006, 04:35 PM

That kind of "always has the answers" type usually gets written out quickly, or killed, in Joss Whedon shows. That's why I like him.

Posted by: Foreigner Jan 7 2006, 04:53 PM

QUOTE (Sahandrian)

Foreigner's bad puns have nothing on mine.

Sahandrian:

I resemble that remark.

I now un-hijack (?) this thread.

--Foreigner

Posted by: tisoz Jan 7 2006, 05:42 PM

QUOTE (Sahandrian)

http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm (Mostly meant for females and fanfiction characters, but applies fairly reliably to others.)

I think the results I got for Aina explains why I hate Worlds Without End so much.

Posted by: Grinder Jan 7 2006, 06:07 PM

Who doesn't?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 7 2006, 06:23 PM

Me!

Admittedly the fact that I haven't read it yet may have something to do with that.

~J

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 7 2006, 06:42 PM

Yeah, he's half-drake. Half-one-race-or-the-other characters have a 90% chance of being Mary Sues. The only real exception I know of is Inuyasha, whose brother's 50 times faster, stronger, and cooler. Even that's changing, though...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 7 2006, 07:17 PM

There's Meji!

~J

Posted by: Foreigner Jan 7 2006, 08:07 PM

QUOTE (mintcar @ Jan 7 2006, 07:35 AM)

The problem with characters like that is that it´s too easy to picture them being played by Steven Seagal.

mintcar:

I realize that most of his movies are pure trash, but I *have* seen a few good ones by Mr. Seagal.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

Besides, I've only seen *one* of his films un-edited and/or in its entirety (Marked for Death, which I saw in a movie theater shortly after it was released). All of the others I've seen were edited and broadcast on network TV.

Come to think of it, though, my character in Sahandrian's campaign is essentially a combination of two versions of "The Foreigner"--one patterned after Seagal's character in The Foreigner, "Jonathan Cold" (I even borrowed the name; I just hope that the copyright lawyers don't find out

), and the other after the Marvel Comics character.

The main difference between Seagal's version and mine is that Seagal, of course, was trained in aikido and kendo; my version of "The Foreigner" is a ninja, presently trained only in taijitsu (ninja unarmed combat techniques).

--Foreigner

Posted by: Taran Jan 8 2006, 11:01 PM

My dislike of David Weber falls into place. Honor Harrington scores 104 on the Mary Sue test, and that's after skipping all the portions of the test dealing with "canon" characters (since she, you know, is one).

Posted by: Adarael Jan 9 2006, 12:09 AM

QUOTE

There's Meji!

You win a prize for referencing Errant Story!

I ... uh... dunno what the prize is yet. But there is one!

Posted by: Glyph Jan 9 2006, 01:11 AM

QUOTE (Taran)

You know, if you gave Honor Harrington a harem, or gave Anita Blake a treecat, you would have the ultimate Mary Sue.

Posted by: LaughingTiger Jan 9 2006, 07:18 AM

QUOTE (Foreigner)

I realize that most of his movies are pure trash, but I *have* seen a few good ones by Mr. Seagal.

Warning: Derail!

I'm a card carrying Seagal fan. From his outrageous lies to his run ins with the Mafia, the man is a walking source of comedy.

I'm such a fan that when his movies come on, my friends all groan because there is no debate, they will be watched.

And I'll agree. His earlier films were good.. but oh my god, what is he making now? Have you seen In the Belly of the Beast, set in Thailand?

Don't. Avoid at all costs. Evil Buddhist priest bad guy.

Yes, that bad.

This whole psuedo-religous kick he's on is just nuts and he's be on it for several movies now. It's like the Tom Cruise thing but so much farther down on the D-list.

Posted by: mintcar Jan 9 2006, 09:22 AM

I´m sure you don´t like The Sea Gul for being able to portray multi-layered characters with depth and precision, though. Forgive me. I can enjoy a good action movie too. What we´re all agreeing on here is that a litterary character with the same properties as a action movie hero is a bad thing, right?

Posted by: Ancient History Jan 9 2006, 11:25 AM

It really depends on the context of the story. Superman and Harry Potter could both be seen as Mary Sue characters, but they're both wildly popular. If the plot of a story really requires a Mary Sue, and the rest of the story is balanced around that, then it's not a bad thing.

Posted by: toturi Jan 9 2006, 11:46 AM

QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jan 9 2006, 07:25 PM)

I suppose, from the reaction people have to Ryan, that Horrors aren't a serious enough plot reason. Maybe the Big V should have put in an appearance. Bloody hell... I just realised(continuing this line of thought) people do not think a cyberzombie is serious enough.

Posted by: Foreigner Jan 9 2006, 01:52 PM

QUOTE (mintcar @ Jan 9 2006, 04:22 AM)

I´m sure you don´t like The Sea Gull for being able to portray multi-layered characters with depth and precision, though.

Forgive me. I can enjoy a good action movie too. What we´re all agreeing on here is that a literary character with the same properties as a action movie hero is a bad thing, right?

(Edited by Yours Truly)

mintcar:

Good point.

While I *will* admit that Seagal's films aren't likely to win an Oscar anytime soon (although, come to think of it, the film critics once said that about Clint Eastwood's work), they--as well as other films of that genre--are often a nice diversion from real life.

You know, sometimes you just *have* to see a few people beaten up, even if it is fake--especially if it feels like the only alternative is to destroy your own property.

Kinda like watching professional wrestling.

--Foreigner

Posted by: JongWK Jan 9 2006, 02:24 PM

According to Steven Seagal's Submerged, my little country has Mayan ruins, jungles, nuclears submarines, evil terrorists with mind controlling devices, a cruel dictator and mad scientists. Also, phone booths are in French, and the fields are full of goats and Bulgarian blonde peasant babes (what, did I forget to mention that the film was shot in Bulgaria?).

Next time someone complains about CalFree or the Allied German States, remember what Steven Seagal did to Uruguay.

Posted by: Grinder Jan 9 2006, 03:57 PM

Now you know how we feel

Posted by: Birdy Jan 9 2006, 04:01 PM

QUOTE (JongWK)

On the other hand "Under Siege 1" had it's peaks

and an interesting cast. Sadly they added Mr. Segal to that mix.

Posted by: mintcar Jan 9 2006, 04:10 PM

QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jan 9 2006, 06:25 AM)

In my opinion the superhero genre has a few rather genial features. Most comic book scripts are the worst crap imaginable (but they do satisfy that need for seing people beaten up that you mentioned Forigner

). There is however potential in the genre for magnificent stories, and several have been written. Although Superman may be the most "Mary-Sue"-ish (I was unaware of the term) character imaginable, he still has an alterego to provide a base for identification. Still I do agree he does have very few sides to his personality. Spiderman may be a better example of a vunerable superhero, that young readers truely identify with. I´m not even going to argue that there´s a difference between the expectations you can have on comic books and "real" litterature. Because I don´t believe that has to be the case, even though it is most of the time today.

As for Harry Potter, he is certainly not in any way similar to Ryan Mercury. If a Mary-Sue is a writers metaphorical phalus, like someone put it earlier, I couldn´t begin to understand why Harry Potter would be one. As I understand it, the problem with Mary-Sue characters is that the reader is made to feel small, stupid or amoral by them, and that pisses people off. You could claim that Harry Potter is a flat character, but I don´t agree with him having said effect. Well, maybe a little since his companions gets to do so little in their quest to save the world from evil.

You´re right that the case could be made. The difference is that these characters both have weaknesses that makes them somewhat accessable. The fact that they save the world all by themselves over and over again gets easier to swallow that way.

Posted by: MK Ultra Jan 9 2006, 04:58 PM

IMHO Ryan Mercury does have his faults (besides no reader liking him, that is). Before his encounter with Roxxy, he was somhow dumb, he did not think about the things he did for Big D (or more euphemisticaly put, he was a deadly weapon to be used by Dunkelzahn). Altho it is probably not meant that way, can´t but imagin him as some stupid siegfried-typ.
After colliding with Thomas Roxborrow, he was an arrogant asshole, or at least it fealt to me that way.
Besides him beeing all powerfull, thats why I do not like him.

Posted by: John Campbell Jan 9 2006, 06:39 PM

QUOTE (Taran)

http://www.angelfire.com/gundam/otto/grayswandir/mary-sue-test.html, being designed for original fiction characters rather than fanfic. I get a 73 for Honor (71+, Irredeemable Sue) on this one. I don't know enough about Ryan Mercury to run him through it... I quit reading RPG-based fiction after the second Dragonlance trilogy.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 9 2006, 07:02 PM

QUOTE (Ancient History)

It really depends on the context of the story. Superman and Harry Potter could both be seen as Mary Sue characters, but they're both wildly popular.

Remember, 'popular' does not mean 'good'. We only need to look at the list of US presidents voted into office to realize this.

There's also the fact that you can take 'Mary Sue' to a ridiculous degree. It's one thing for your character to always win a fight. It's another to find out he's a super-human and never knew it, with incredible powers no one any where could possibly compete with, and gets the most desired woman on the planet.

Posted by: Glyph Jan 10 2006, 08:17 AM

It depends on both the genre and the execution. Some authors can make a shameless Mary Sue likeable, and some genres, such as superheroes, require characters who would be overpowering in another setting. Plus, just being a heroic character doesn't make a Mary Sue!

I like Honor Harrington, mostly. I can handle her being superhuman, since the stories generally involve her running into some combination of superior firepower, complacent allies, and political treachery that you would need to be superhuman, merely to survive. If she breezed through effortlessly, instead of taking a beating along the way, then her power level would be more of a problem. The one really grating thing about her, though, is how overdone her self-effacing modesty is, and how she melodramatically blames herself for things that aren't really her fault.

Anita Blake is easier to take, because is still outclassed by a lot of the boo scaries that she goes after, and she really takes a beating. Plus, her angsting is more bearable because she has a wry self-awareness of when she is whining too much or making things complicated when they don't have to be. And she has some serious flaws to balance out how "badass" she is, and they aren't piddly little things like not being able to sing karaoke well, but things that have hurt or hindered her.

From what I have read about Ryan Mercury, he isn't quite a Mary Sue. He seems more like the annoying god-boy self-insertion type of character, like Wesley Crusher, Anakin Skywalker, or DJ Croft.

Posted by: Bitten Twice Jan 19 2006, 06:48 PM

Glyph; You took the words right out of my fingers.

Just read the trilogy again with Ryan Mercury. I still do not know what's all the hubbub, Bub. He is a bit overpowered, but I can't see a Mary Sue (didn't do the Litmus).

I'd rather have Ryan than Daviar. But that might be, because I am biased.

Posted by: Aku Jan 19 2006, 06:56 PM

QUOTE (bitten twice)

I'd rather have Ryan than Daviar. But that might be, because I am biased.

Thats just because you're jealeous of her nipples.

Posted by: Bitten Twice Jan 19 2006, 07:22 PM

Nah, not really.
I like my women a bit more. C urved.

Posted by: Anythingforenoughnuyen Jan 20 2006, 01:02 AM

Despite the desire on my part to add another snarky reply, since I have frequently been on the Ryan bashing band wagon, I feel that I should give a somewhat serious reply as to who Ryan Mercury is, with the emphasis on why the character is such a Twink.

[Personal Note: The people I gamed with in Junior High/High school did not use that word [Twink], so I had never heard it until I got to College and started gaming with a group of new friends. Not wanting to seem like a total gaming looser, I did not ask anyone what it meant [the general context was enough to get that it was a negative term having something to do with character abilities]. The word first came up in a conversation we were having at lunch one day, and after everyone broke up to go to class [my class not starting for another hour or so] I headed over to the library and availed myself to the schools computers to look up the word on the internet. I mention this only because, if you do not know what Twink means, as I did not, and type it into, say, google, the response that you get is decidedly not the way the word is being used here: Roughly, a character who's abilities are beyond what is generally appropriate for its type].

First, the books that he is in are important aspects of the Shadowrun plotline [they cover the circumstances of the Death of Dunkelzahn among other things], and he is portrayed as as Shadowruner-which is what the hope would be. That is not to say that having non-runner characters in Shadowrun novels is not cool, and that they can not give details about the game in cool ways, but for the really important books, it would be nice if the main characters were Shadowruners. The problem is that Ryan Mercury is not a Shadowruner, he is a Company Man working for the Great Dragon Dunkelzahn, and after his death, The Dunkelzahn Foundation.

He starts off as a Silent Way adept, of greater ability that it is possible to really conceive of a character achieving. He also has abilities in combat and military leadership that would be similarly difficult to achieve in a Warrior Way adept should a character focus on either of those approaches. As a result of his capture and the attempt by a crazy genetic mutant blob of a billionaire who sat on Azetch's board of directors [who attempted to take over his body by re-writing his brain to be that of said blob's, thus allowing said blob to gain freedom from his life support tank] he has all of the knowledge and ruthless cunning of one of the worlds great corporate masters [here in also we learn not just the erotic power, but also the vast medicinal properties of Vice President ND's nipples, as it is through them that Ryan Mercury is able to regain his original personality-retaining, of course, as I said, all of the knowledge and mental powers of said blob]. He briefly has the most powerful magic item in Shadowrun, however he gives that up for the good of the world. Which does not leave him in too bad of a position, as he has, in monetary terms, unlimited resources that he may tap without any sort of oversight in his ongoing task of protecting the legacy of the big D. In the process of completing the series of adventures he finds himself embroiled in surrounding the Great Dragon's death, he also learns that he is a Drake, and wins a comitment for traning in magic [now being a full magician along with a being a bad ass adept] from the most powerful wizard in the Sixth World [Harlequin].

The point of all of this being that for those [my self at least] who first entered Shadowrun along side Twist, as he learned his way about the shadows from the crew of Ghost-Who-Walks-Inside, Sally Tsong, Kahm, Dodger, etc..., there is a bit of sadness that the stories that started Shadowrun, the Runners stories, have in some ways been overtaken by other elements of the game. And, as Ryan Mercury is a sort of symbol of that aspect of the game, he gets a lot of shit.

Posted by: Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate Jan 20 2006, 01:29 AM

Personally, I think the best way to introduce the death of Ryan Mercury into canon would be the following post:

"It's like how everybody remembers where they were when Haeffner was assassinated, or when Ryan Mercury died of autoerotic asphyxiation."

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 20 2006, 01:37 AM

I should have the runners kill him. That would be fun.

Posted by: SL James Jan 20 2006, 10:18 PM

I can't accept the idea of calling Ryan Mercury a Mary Sue if for no other reason than because Jak Koke did not before nor hasn't since shown any specific love for the character, who was in all likelihood imposed on him by the same person who brought us SURGE (namely, Mike Mulvihill).

It's not like he was Jak's first major PC, who became his editorial voice in a series of sourcebooks he wrote before coming back from the dead to star in a series of novels which further reinforce the fact that said PC/protagonist is a thinly veiled SR version of the author, complete with personality traits and biases. No, that would be the province of another author who shall remain namele... *cough* Steve Kenson *cough*
Excuse me. Damn cough.

I hate him because I am jealous that a hot older woman who shouldn't loves him.

But really, I don't particularly care about how much he sucks. He was a ninja who was through into a series of un-ninjalike situations and still lived. But he was also effectively a kid who was forced to grow up, and in spite of that fact did so when it would have been far easier to follow his impulses.

I've seen gamers whose characters never grew up so much in years, so yeah... He sucks. Okay.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jan 20 2006, 10:33 PM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

I heard he's Nadja Daviar's lover and close friend. He's the leader of Acquisitions, Inc. and a drake. I've also heard he's a Mary Sue type, and I believe it, judging by these facts.

Mercury is no

Platinum

Yakuza Ninja Assasin for the Watada-Gumi/Shadowrunner.

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 21 2006, 04:52 PM

Does he have sex with Nadja Daviar?

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jan 21 2006, 05:09 PM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

Does he have sex with Nadja Daviar?

uh, well the Bunrunku BTL induces elven hooker with cosmetic surgery count?

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 21 2006, 05:24 PM

QUOTE

uh, well the Bunrunku BTL induces elven hooker with cosmetic surgery count?

*shudder*

Posted by: SL James Jan 21 2006, 10:35 PM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

Does he have sex with Nadja Daviar?

Yes.

Hence all the jokes about her nipples.

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 21 2006, 10:49 PM

I was talking about Mr. Platinum's character.