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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ SR4 timeline

Posted by: mfb Jan 6 2006, 08:50 PM

QUOTE (winterhawk11)

I suspect that, if the 2065-2070 years had been spelled out in loving and intricate detail (or even if there'd been a simple timeline describing major events that occurred in those years), somebody else would be complaining that they were "boxed in" and it "wasn't fair that these events were simply mentioned without giving players the opportunity to play through and affect them."

i'm not normally one for picking up closed threads, even closed threads that are given explicit permission to be re-opened. this statement, however, strikes me as requiring a response from the pro-have-a-timeline camp.

where are the people who are complaining they didn't get to play through/affect the entrance of Hestaby onto the Tir council? where are the people who are complaining they didn't get to play through/affect the re-opening of Tibet? where are the people who are complaining they didn't get to play through/affect the expansion of the PCC?

they aren't there, because nothing stops a GM from incorporating those events into their games. these are all events--big events--that occured in the past of the books they are first mentioned in. this is something that game publishers have to do--that game publishers do all the time. it's understood between the publishers and the players/GMs that these events are just as open to inclusion into a game as the "current" events that occur in the books. some groups choose to delve into these events (i'm running a game right now that details the defense of Chico-Oroville from Saito's attempts at expansion), and some don't. creating a timeline would allow groups to include the events of 2065-2070 much, much more easily than simply leaving it up in the air, especially for groups who prefer to stick to the canon timeline as much as possible. as it stands, most canon-oriented groups are simply not going to touch 2065-2070, because anything they do there has a decent chance of coming into conflict with later canon.

i know Synner et al have said they plan to leave those years as murky as possible, but i've followed too many continuities (comics, RPGs, etc.) and seen that same promise made and broken too many times to trust it very far. i understand they don't plan to un-murkifiy those years, but at some point, some freelancer is going to come up with this awesome idea that starts in the year 2068... it's not an aspersion on their honesty or intentions, it's simply the fact that creativity doesn't tend to limit itself.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 6 2006, 09:00 PM

QUOTE

where are the people who are complaining they didn't get to play through/affect the entrance of Hestaby onto the Tir council?

They did. It was called Survival of the Fittest.

QUOTE

where are the people who are complaining they didn't get to play through/affect the expansion of the PCC?

California mostly. I haven't yet spoken to anyone in California who wasn't to one degree or another pissed off at the conquest of Los Angeles by Pueblo. Tails don't wag dogs, the conquest of LA by Pueblo would go down just like the conquest of England by Scotland. The PCC would get renamed "Greater California", not the other way around.

Yeah, the YotC inspired events in the CFS have pissed off a lot of people. It wouldn't surprise me if they got more negative feedback from that than any other move except eliminating variable target numbers (but that also generates a lot of positive feedback, so I'm not sure it counts).

QUOTE

as it stands, most canon-oriented groups are simply not going to touch 2065-2070, because anything they do there has a decent chance of coming into conflict with later canon.

I would think that most canon oriented groups would play in 2070. People who angrily refuse to give up SR3 are by defintion not following current canon so they can jolly well play through 2069 any way they want.

-Frank

Posted by: mfb Jan 6 2006, 09:02 PM

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

I haven't yet spoken to anyone in California who wasn't to one degree or another pissed off at the conquest of Los Angeles by Pueblo.

i didn't ask who liked it. i asked who complained that they couldn't play through it.

as for canon-oriented groups--the only ones that would possibly want to play through 2065-2070 are the ones sticking to SR3? angrily, even?

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jan 6 2006, 09:06 PM

And maybe, if we continue to look at any in game information provided on the setting as Shadowtalk, then having those years be murky and get filled in backwards is Setting appropriate.

I mean, the world has really just recovered form this matrix crash thing. Even after the infrastructure was back up (Within weeks in some places) there would be a general mistrust of the internet (Sorry, matrix) for a good long time. It might take, Oh, five years for people to start using the thing on the same scale they did before the crash. And there would only be updates on various things as the people who knew got back online. Until then there ould be unsubstantiated rumors, and those few facts you could scrape together would leave large holes in the "What happened?" department.

But damn, yes, as a fan and GM I really, Really want a damn timeline for those 5 years. I can buy the bullshit I posted above only for so long. As the people get more comfortable communicating again, eventually what happened will be peiced together. A timeline of events would form, and if they really intend to leave those 5 years murky then they are fucking with my ability to suspend disbeleif, and I'll simply stop[ caring what canon is and go my own route.

Posted by: mfb Jan 6 2006, 09:16 PM

the we-didn't-know approach is workable, and even realistic, but only up to a certain point. i mean, let's say they revist England in SOTA:2075 (or whatever), wherein we find that the popular revolution succeeded. i don't think a major political shift like that is going to pass unnoticed, no matter how much of a shambles the Matrix is in.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jan 6 2006, 09:34 PM

So, would you pay good money for a SOTA: 2069 book that covered the intervening years? A sort of "hey, the matrix is back up, here's what went down while you were unplugged" book?

Cause I know I would. Pay attention fanpro.

Heck, I'd fragging WRITE it for you, if you are too booked with the other releases.

He He, Booked. I kill myself.

Posted by: mfb Jan 6 2006, 09:36 PM

you'd better, before somebody else gets to you.

yeah, i'd probably buy SOTA:2069.

Posted by: BishopMcQ Jan 6 2006, 09:43 PM

For SOTA:69--would you buy it if it was written with SR4 rules? I'm not flame baiting, but I don't see FanPro publishing anything in SR3 rules, and I know that MFB has stated that he dislikes SR4.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jan 6 2006, 09:45 PM

Give all the SR4 haters a few years of no support for SR3, and they'll all come around. It's not like any of them are going to kick the addiction for new sourcebooks.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 6 2006, 09:48 PM

But a new SOTA book is mostly flavor and fluff anyway. Yes, there are obviously rules, but even die-hard SR3 fans would find 85% of the material immediately useful, and have a grand old time converting the crunchy bits from SR4 to SR3.

Posted by: mfb Jan 6 2006, 09:55 PM

i'm not sure if i'm going to be picking up SR4 sourcebooks or not. i'll look them over and decide on a case-by-case basis. rules-oriented books, i'll probably skip; fluff books, i might pick up.

Posted by: MK Ultra Jan 7 2006, 12:54 AM

I didn´t like SR3 when it came out (never even got the SR3 core rules ever), but still, I got all of the sb´s, cuz you can allways retrofit the rules. eventualy I used SR2/SR3 rules 50/50 or so. Now I skiped to SR4 entirely (even before the core book was released by house rules). Anyway, I did not allways have use for the rules, but I used the setting. I´m a heavy houseruler anyway.

SOTA69 I´d rip out of the hands of my rpg-dealer as soon as it would be availabel. I allways thought the rules sections in the SOTA books secondary (except genetech in 63 maybe, which I modyfied heavily anyway).

But realy, a rough timeline of mayor events for these 5 years will do for me!

Posted by: stevebugge Jan 7 2006, 01:04 AM

Hmm SOTA 2069. Sounds like a great Community Project idea to me.....

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jan 7 2006, 01:58 AM

QUOTE (MK Ultra)

I'm pretty sure that future SR4 source books will include that information, or at least i hope it does.
I'm no affiliation with the groups involved with creativaty just a die hard player.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 7 2006, 06:33 AM

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

QUOTE

where are the people who are complaining they didn't get to play through/affect the entrance of Hestaby onto the Tir council?

They did. It was called Survival of the Fittest.

IIRC, that wasn't SoTF. A lot of crap went down in that adventure set, but the Tir council was not the result. Just a nit pick.

Posted by: Critias Jan 7 2006, 07:39 AM

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)

And maybe, if we continue to look at any in game information provided on the setting as Shadowtalk, then having those years be murky and get filled in backwards is Setting appropriate.

I'd be fine with that, if it was small shit. But it's not. We're talking about political coups and stuff, here. Big stuff. Important stuff.

The Tir situation, for instance? Picture this scenario in real life. You're a professional criminal, operating out of Montreal or something. Your contact calls you, tells you he needs some bodyguard and escort around town work. Your client is George W. Bush. He's on the run, he explains, from the US Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, etc. Someone else has seized power in a violent rebellious coup, and the United States are no longer under his control. You protect him from Secret Service Agents who try to kill him, as he handles his errand-running around Quebec, before fleeing to Middle Of Nowhereistan under cover of darkness.

There's no mention of anything, anywhere, on the news, in papers, on-line, via friends and contacts you've got all over DC, NY, LA, you name it. No one knows anything. No one hears anything about US politics, from anywhere in the world, for five or six years. Until 2012, when someone suddenly mentions in passing that there's been "some new guy" that "somehow" took over the Presidency, "some time" a couple years ago.

Because that's what we're getting, as a for instance, with the Tir thing. Only my write up, just now, was longer, I think, than the one the Tir got in Sota '64.

And it's how I feel about Sota '64 as a whole. We got just enough info to make us want to run with some really cool shit. But not enough info to let us run with it, and stay canon.

Understand the frustration? It's like a cat eyeing a caged-in bird, or a fish in a tank that's got a lid, y'know?

Posted by: MK Ultra Jan 7 2006, 06:38 PM

Am I doing a serious faux pass by saying "I agree with Critias"?

Well, I´ll do anyway. Not that I didn´t like the SOTA books. But the News section was realy only usefull after some more sbs. It was kind of cool crunching these hints but I did nothing with them in my group.

I don´t want the authors to reveal every dark secret of these 5 years on the spot. But as C sayed, I´d like to know the most ovious basics, like is Tir still a feudal neo-Aristocracy, military dictatorship, real democracy? No statement about who the new Princes, the Dictator, the President are and no need to know who is the power bihind these changes. Just the global headlines. Thats what I´m seriouslymissing!

Posted by: ascendance Jan 7 2006, 08:37 PM

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

Imagine that if England was devastated by earthquakes and flooding and had collapsed into near-anarchy. 60-70% of the Greater London Area has been totally destroyed because the flood barriers failed, and the River Thames has become Lake Thames. If people in the highlands of Scotland reorganized themselves into a government and re-established their government in England, the results wouldn't necessarily be called the United Kingdom or Britain.

That being said, it's pretty clear from Shadows of North America that people in LA let themselves get absorbed by the PCC, rather than get conquered by Aztlan. It was in effect, bloodless and the result of consent.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 8 2006, 06:48 AM

QUOTE (MK Ultra)

Am I doing a serious faux pass by saying "I agree with Critias"?

No, the thing is that Critias is often right. You may be thinking of Conspir-I-see, whom, for some reason, I often draw parallels too w/ Crit. Maybe because they're both right more often than I'm comfortable with.

Posted by: Ophis Jan 8 2006, 01:06 PM

What I want is a state of play document, maybe half a page at most giving a status report on each major nation (UCAS, CAS, Pueblo, Sioux, both Tir's, the UK, Germany, Japan) and a little about the others. maybe a web document, to give us the shape of whats going down in the world. Tir Tairngire and UK are my biggies actually at the mo. maybe do one area every couple of weeks?

I at least hope for such an overview of nearby areas for HK and Seattle in Runner havens.

Posted by: MK Ultra Jan 8 2006, 04:00 PM

QUOTE (Ophis)

I at least hope for such an overview of nearby areas for HK and Seattle in Runner havens.

I don´t just hope, but I´m counting on this! Even if it stays a bit murky.

I just re-read the page In SR4 on the years 65-70, just to be sure. There realy isn´t much info in there, even combined with SF, which I took another quick look at. Only the corps are detailed a litle more.

About the TirT. it only states, they got hit hard by the New Revolution (or maybe Rinelle if thats not the same) and underwent major changes.

BTW which Party did Coloton with in 68? I´d suspect the Republicans (can you say "Empowerment Coalition" three times fast in a row

). I´d allso like to have a Name and Party of this corp-puppet-prez elected in 65 after the crash!

Ophis proposal would be great, can we hope fore something like this?

It could allso be done as a comunity project in the hopes that staff and authors would addopt the major events ore intervene if it loses the trail too much. But this would include a lot of spoilers, since we´d have to discuss the info given yet, including the adventureseeds from SF and some older books!

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 8 2006, 05:49 PM

Since when are the Tirs major nations? There are 3.7 Million people in Tir na nOg. The country has less economic and political importance than San Diego, AZT or Phoenix, PCC. It's gotten a whole lot of ink and fan boy attention, but it's never been an important area. Ever.

The actual effect on Shadowrunners and the world economy of the theocratic republic of Tir na nOg is as close to zero as a nation in Europe could possibly be. Less people than a moderate-sized city in North America, isolationist in the extreme, and rather short on exportable natural resources (their only resources of note are magical power sites that outsiders can't even use).

Honestly, who gives a crap what happens in the Tir? I'm much more concerned about the fact that we have actual mega cities that have never been even mentioned or placed on a Shadowrun Map. What's the dealio in Johannesburg or Lagos? Unlike the goings-on in a minor European Elven country club, that's actually important.

-Frank

Posted by: Critias Jan 8 2006, 06:09 PM

Tir Tairngire is "important" for two reasons: firstly, because it's so close to Seattle it's very, very, likely to affect it's neighbor (along with being close to so much other hyperdetailed stuff up and down the West Coast). And secondly, simply because it's such a "fanboy paradise" or whatever you called it, and because it has gotten so much ink. They focus on it, and focus on it, and focus on it -- and then suddenly the one constant of the place (it's High Prince) gets ousted, and no one knows anything about how and why.

You can't give something that much attention for that long, and then suddenly clam up about it, and not expect it to impact some games.

Posted by: MYST1C Jan 8 2006, 09:29 PM

QUOTE (Ophis)

What I want is a state of play document, maybe half a page at most giving a status report on each major nation (UCAS, CAS, Pueblo, Sioux, both Tir's, the UK, Germany, Japan)

Well, the AGS add-on chapter of the German System Failure contains a "leaked internal S-K memo" that speculates (from a 2065 POV) about future changes in Germany caused or catalysed by Crash 2.0 (I'm looking forward to seeing which of these changes actually will be present in SR4's AGS).

BTW, for those interested in euro-corporations:
IFMU is no more! They went bankrupt and got sold piece by piece (e.g. IFMU Robotik now belongs to AT&T which in turn belongs to S-K).

Posted by: Adarael Jan 9 2006, 12:04 AM

QUOTE

No, as was said in another thread, it's not a faux pas to agree with Critias.

For more info on why Tir Tairngire has so much written about it, see also: Immortal Elves and the Earthdawn tie-ins.

Tir Tairngire has, and probably always will remain, relatively irrelevant in my games except for its' status as a 'hostile nation' with regards to the California Free State. The things that bugged me about the nation way back when it was first written up are as follows:
1) The near-instantaneous 'superpower' status it seemed to hold. The nation was wealthy beyond any reasonable measure, and was self-sustaining enough to have an economic policy I can only describe as 'suicidal' without any real way to support that policy. I can only hint to you the abject glee I felt when I read its' economy had tanked in-canon and they'd been forced to open their borders.
2) Its' military strength was such that rolling over California was like unto the US government deciding it wanted to invade some banana republic somewhere. That particular relation always struck me as ridiculous, primarily because the population of California should be between 3-5 times that of the Tir, as well as having equivalent military hardware and training.
3) Techno-magical superiority. I can buy that a nation founded by a bunch of immortals who know Secrets Man Was Not Meant to Know can have magical superiority. That's really fine with me. But suddenly being onthe bleeding edge of technology when compared to the megacorps? That I have a hard time buying, especially when corporations like Telestrian Industries are the equivalent of a backwoods research division for the AAA corps.

My solution to this problem was this: Tir Tairngire's political and social structure is pretty much what the book said it was. However, their military, technological, and economic power is all a sham, because their leaders are running a oligarchal society with absolute control of the media, and they're Elves. I.E. they're extremely good liars. The Tir wasn't as shiny or special as outsiders thought - it was just a really good PR campaign. Because if people think you can challenge them on a military or economic level, they're much less inclined to actually attack you.

Tir na nOg has always been relatively irrelevant, save for when Brahne says something in a sourcebook - and even then, it's pretty irrelevant.

Posted by: MK Ultra Jan 9 2006, 12:52 AM

Well, the point why it is such a fanboyspecial is, because it is different. It was very mysterious (at least before the TT sb came out) and that does allways interest players. And it´s ruled (or at least was ruled) by elves. Ther are allmost as many elveposer players out there as there are elven PC´s, I guess.

I hated it, because I mostly GM in my group and every second PC from one of my players is supposed to be form TT. (the other half coming from Tir na nÓg ). At least before I start asking, why isn´t he still there, how did he get out, why arn´t they hunting him down...

I liked to integrate it into my game is, becaus it´s so mystereous, which means you can tell the players anything about it, without a singel word being true and thay´d still belive it
It´s allso fun to teas the TT-loving players by stating how it is all a dictatorship and a police state and the economics is going down. Then presenting them a close friend NPC from the Tir, which doesn´t stop arguing that this is all evil propaganda and how TT is the greatest in the world! Or the oter way round, if the PC´s from the Tir.

I´d like to have some details about it, cuz it underwent major changes after the crash! I´d allso like to have such info about the Tsimshiane (though there is a bit more about that in SF and SR4) the Ute and California/LA and to a lesser degree about the Sioux. Because these were the hotspots of change in NA in the wake of the chash!
I´d like to know more about the UCAS, cuz thats the main setting of my champaigns.

Edit: I forgot. TT (and TNO) being so different makes it harder to improvise, it is not so hard to do that with the CAS or such..

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jan 9 2006, 01:26 AM

Eh, I'm not sure I want to hear any more about California, as it'll inevitably mean someone else screwing it over. At this point we've had the UCAS, Aztalan, Tir Taringire, Japan, the PCC, God, and Physics screw over the "Free State"; I'd hate to see what else the SR writers can come up with to screw over the region. Maybe Germany will invade next, and carve out the area around San Luis Obispo?

Posted by: MK Ultra Jan 9 2006, 01:34 AM

First and foremost we´ll have to see, if the sea realy retreats or if CalFree stays New Orleans wise.

Than wasn´t MCT stated to relocate its assets from Tsimshian to CalFree?

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jan 9 2006, 01:45 AM

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)

Maybe Germany will invade next, and carve out the area around San Luis Obispo?

Hmm... an open-pit mining run by SK - sounds good?

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 9 2006, 01:51 AM

San Francisco has one of the largest Titanium reserves in the world - under it.

-Frank

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 14 2006, 04:16 AM

ok I don't want to make waves but what changes will the 2070's bring to the sixth world--I think it will bring the Gradual Introduction of the Earthdawn races into shadowrun and the Beginning of feasible shadowruns farther out in the solar system

What does everyone else think?

This will be my only post to this thread and it is just meant as a conversation starter

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 14 2006, 05:34 AM

they've already started thos eseeds.

Obsidimen started making appearances in SoA, and someone out there were some mention to lizardmen, I believe in the Anghkor section of T:AL.

As for space, try T:Wastelands, and SOTA 63. Mars missions, dark side of the moon bases, all that good stuff.

Posted by: RunnerPaul Jan 14 2006, 05:36 AM

QUOTE (boskop-albatros)

the Gradual Introduction of the Earthdawn races into shadowrun

How about an average of one Earthdawn race every 20 years or so on average? Of course, since you've already got Human, Elf, Dwarf, Ork, Troll and Windling(sprites), you wouldn't be due for the next one until 2132 if you wanted to maintain said average.

Works for me.

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 14 2006, 05:46 AM

Sprites aren't sentient.

Well, not yet, anyway.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 14 2006, 05:53 AM

there was a windling cameo in Paranormal Animals of Europe.

Also, IIRC, the percentage of magically active people in the high point of the magic cycle was around 3-5%, including adepts, where as now it's about 1%. Got some room for growth there.

Remember also that the whole magicl cycle has been screwed up because of the ghost dance. Things like the Insect spirits for example aren't supposed to show up until much later in the cycle, like they did in ED. They were thought to be a precursor to the Scourge. But the spike let them through sooner. So the whole levels of mana are screwed up (or were at least until Big D leveled things out).

Posted by: TonkaTuff Jan 14 2006, 05:56 AM

Though the reptiles and the obsidimen have started popping up, they're very rare. Like Windlings/Sprites - most people don't even believe they exist, let alone know that they're people and not critters. Unless they turn out to be yet another expression of metahumanity (fairly unlikely, I think), they'll have slept through the 5th world. And, since they're not supposed to be super-smart like the Dragons (and less able to bring themselves up to speed anywhere near as quickly), they'd be largely unsuited for player-characters. The most you can probably expect out of them for a long while is popping up on the UN endangered species lists or passing mentions in a fluff book.

As for the chance for your runners to play spaceman - it strikes me as being so unlikely as to be negligible. Unless there's a massive tech-jump, extraplanetary installations would still prohibitively expensive to run on a regular basis. As a showboat project like the Mars mission, maybe, but not common enough where shadow operations would be feasible. Even in the 2060's, manned spaceflight was fairly rare and expensive. And I doubt there would have been much time to develop cheaper and more efficient spacecraft while everyone was still trying to clean themselves up after the second Crash.

Not to mention trips up the well would be suicide for "deniable assets". Magicians can't go because it makes their brains melt. And even the most fearsome street monster doesn't have anti-grav combat training, let alone familiarity with the few weapons they'd be able to use safely - and would be outclassed by the dedicated space-sec. And unless manned flight by civilians has become much more common, any aggressive operations against other space-based assets would tend to stand out - defeating the purpose of sending runners in the first place. Plus, your sponsor would have very little motivation to try to bring you back, successful or not. By setting you adrift in the big black, they won't have to pay you, and you're guaranteed not to talk. It'd be simple enough to spread the word that the re-entry craft suffered some sort of terminal malfunction on the way back - after all, everyone knows how dangerous space travel is. Disappearing someone ground-side leaves traces that dedicated people can follow - but only the corps themselves have the resources to get any interested parties into space, and they wouldn't be motivated to shoot themselves in the head like that.

Posted by: mfb Jan 14 2006, 06:11 AM

the obsidimen--or, rather, the obsidiman--mentioned is, indeed, an expression of metahumanity. a SURGEd man searching for ancient stones in the jungle.

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 14 2006, 06:14 AM

yes I'm posting again but I'll make it quick

As the 2070's progress I expect that the "Main Earthdawn Three" [Windlings/Sprites, T'Skrangs/Lizardmen, and Obsidimen] Will be like urban legends for awhile-poping up in The Tabloids/Screemsheets and maybe around 2079 or so at least one of them will be accepted by the general public as existing

as for space missions the only new ground in the 2070's will probably be asteriod mining missions---if they become profitable the corps will not want to chase away prospective workers by just leaving them out to die in the big vacuum---as for magic in space the only possibility I can think of is a manned mars mission with just an astral perception adapt going along (and in hypersleep with an onboard microbiospere) so any interested parties can find out if there is the possibility of active mana on Mars

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 14 2006, 06:23 AM

Tonka: Read T:Wastelands. Apparently spaceflight is common enough that there is a space station not controlled by any corp. Instead, it is, I kid you not, in the hands of space smugglers. Unfortuantely, they didn't have the balls to call it Mos Eisley. It's called Haven (IIRC).

Boskop: They're not myths and legends. Like I said, one of Yamatetsu's top dogs (and a huge racist, who did a 180 flip on that issue) SURGEd into a '900lb rock man". No one's going to call them 'obsidimen' of course, because no one would know the terminology. But there is at least one of them out there, very public, and very documented.
There are also reports of spotting "Rock men" in the Lake Baykal area. Completely unrelated except for being rock men. As in, differnet guys, don't know each other unrelated in case I'm not being clear.

Also, as a note, there as an astral adept on that Mars mission. check the SOTA books (64 for that one I believe)

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 14 2006, 07:34 AM

I'll point out that I doubt the Yamatetsu guy's transformation was due to SURGE, seeing as obsidimen are weird elemental-metahuman hybrids who spawn from giant Life Stones made of True Earth and surrounded by veins of precious metals and natural orichalcum (and, as a result, most of them have probably been mined and destroyed by now).

I would not be surprised, however, if the ones out by Lake Baikal are true Obsidimen.

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 14 2006, 07:37 AM

hell yeah glad to see I guessed that one right about mars then

as for the "Main Earthdawn Three" I guess they will enter pulic acceptance faster then I thought in the funky 2070 with obsidimen being called Rockpeople like the Windling/Sprite, T'Skrang/Lizardperson splits

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 14 2006, 07:39 AM

true , since everything in ED shows that Obsidimen are NOT derived from humans, where Yoshida ( I think that's the guy's name) was a human supremacist no less before SURGEing.

Honestly, I think that this may be a case of the writers not having read/cared that t'skrang and obsidimen are not derived from human stock, but are their own species.

I could be wrong however, and it could just be total coincidence that the guy SURGEd into what would be effectively the same thing as an obsidiman. After all, what would you call it if the mana level went up, and this human guy got a little taller and thinner, his hair color changed to an acutal blue color, his cheek bones went up a bit, and he got pointed ears and a pearlescent skin? Sounds like an elf to me . Except that we all know that elves aren't SURGEd , they're born, so clearly it can't be an elf. So what is it then? ...... changeling elf? Chelf?

Honestly it would be nice if the writer who wrote up that part about that guy SURGing would clarify what he/she had in mind, whether it was supposed to be an obsidiman that was created through SURGE, ot just very coincidental.

Posted by: mfb Jan 14 2006, 08:07 AM

keep in mind that SR is no longer bound by what happened in ED. things might work differently.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 14 2006, 08:11 AM

That's what I figured was the most likely

Posted by: ThreeGee Jan 14 2006, 12:11 PM

QUOTE

keep in mind that SR is no longer bound by what happened in ED. things might work differently.

I think its also worth remembering that each time the world Awakens it is not necessarily the same everytime. The Indrisan culture in the original ED Theran Empire book describes how after each hachaza (downtime, bottom of the mana curve) somethings reappear as they were before, somethings don't reappear, somethings reappear in new combinations or circumstances, and somethings are entirely new. They talk about each awakened world being a dream of the ones that went before. This is another reason the Immortals are less powerful than we sometimes think they are, they may have lived during the last awakened world, but they have no way of precisely predicting what the new one is going to be like.

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jan 14 2006, 03:55 PM

I think the "Earthdawn 3" will never, ever be playable Shadowrun creatures. I think they will be thrown in as fluff text to make those of us in on the earthdawn connection go "OHHH!" However, adding lizardmen, rock men and fairies would detract from the current feel of SR, making it more fantasy than cyberpunk, something the current writers seem to have spent a great deal of time reversing. 10 years ago? It would have been more reasonable, since SR was weighted very heavily to the fantasy. Today, the balance is restored.

Space, on the other hand. Space is opening up for everyone, not just runners. It is possible to take a Vacation to space by 2065, if your a rich fucker with nothing better to do. Zurich orbital is where it is mostly for lording it over the world in proper evil overlord fashion; the added security of being in space is greatly offset by the added dangers, and really, it's such a money sink that only showmanship can justify it's existence. By 2070, I'm certain the corps have completed their mass driver launcher on mt. kilimanjaro. They fought a spirit war over the thing, they had better get going on it now that they've won. Though a spirit with accident could seriously fuck that thing up, so there'd be serious, serious magical protection.

Posted by: MK Ultra Jan 14 2006, 05:31 PM

Concerning Space
In T:WL there were several thousend peopel in space and ther was vice, smuggling and a lot of industrial espionage and sabotage running oportunities. All of this will probably have increased. Sure, the runs are much mor delicate than down dirtside (ther is not as much violence and no magic involved), but the need to do such jobs is there. Magic may just slowly enter space, if wuxings research on shibanokuji was successfull in lowering the manawarp and the filtering metatechnique from SOTA63 is seing more widespread use.

The smugglerstation was called Echo btw.

Concerning ED Races
The fact, that Obsidimen and co are so different from humanity does not need to mean, they were not originaly derived from menkind. Did elves and trolls interbreed in ED? Who knows if SR Metahumans are still abled to mix with humans in 2090? So the first Obsidimen, as well as Windlings and T´Skrang could well come into the sr world as humans, though later generations probably won´t. ED is well into the manacycle, the situation there would not naccessarily reflect the situation in sr.

Posted by: ThreeGee Jan 14 2006, 06:08 PM

QUOTE

...something the current writers seem to have spent a great deal of time reversing. 10 years ago? It would have been more reasonable, since SR was weighted very heavily to the fantasy. Today, the balance is restored.

This is the game in which they've just made Mystic Adepts cost 10 bps...

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 15 2006, 06:30 AM

QUOTE (MK Ultra)

The smugglerstation was called Echo btw.

Thanks MK

The intersting thing is that w/ filtering, which could eventually (but probably won't in SR games ) lead to spell matrixes, suing magic in space is acutally feasible. Just don't astrally perceive, cause ouch!

As far as orks and trolls in ED, as far as I know, thye could, but jsut as in SR< the off spring are always of one race or the other. No half-anythings. But I agree, I don't see runners as obsidimen either, and hope not to ever. But that's just me (or is it

Posted by: Ophis Jan 15 2006, 11:05 AM

QUOTE (ThreeGee)

QUOTE

This is the game in which they've just made Mystic Adepts cost 10 bps...

No the basic ability is 10 being any good costs about 50 in all (for magic 5) plus about 15 for spells, so 65 total. Out of the standard 400 Bps this is about 1 6th of your resources. In Sr 3 you put option A into it or on points buy it was about a 5th of your points but you got magic 6 in both cases and may spells (6 force per magic in spells I believe). Magic is not cheap in SR4 just the base ability, being good costs.

Oh on topic bit there is at least one human derived obsidiman in SR he's sat on Evo's board, check Yamatetsi refs in SoA.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 15 2006, 11:10 AM

QUOTE (Ophis)

Oh on topic bit there is at least one human derived obsidiman in SR he's sat on Evo's board, check Yamatetsi refs in SoA.

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

Boskop: They're not myths and legends. Like I said, one of Yamatetsu's top dogs (and a huge racist, who did a 180 flip on that issue) SURGEd into a '900lb rock man". No one's going to call them 'obsidimen' of course, because no one would know the terminology. But there is at least one of them out there, very public, and very documented.

Posted by: Synner Jan 15 2006, 02:37 PM

QUOTE

Like I said, one of Yamatetsu's top dogs (and a huge racist, who did a 180 flip on that issue) SURGEd into a '900lb rock man".

Or the author was just really into Ben Grimm.

Posted by: JongWK Jan 15 2006, 06:08 PM

http://images.rottentomatoes.com/images/movie/gallery/1146608/photo_03_hires.jpg

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 15 2006, 06:22 PM

Just to test the waters now if someone was to play an Obsidiman character in Shadowrun what would that character be like?---is it possible that an Obsidiman could be a Hacker/Rigger or Even a Tecnomancer?, or should that be outside the realm of possiblity?

Thoughts?

Posted by: MK Ultra Jan 15 2006, 06:32 PM

Well, he could use an external Comlink without Datajack and simmodule for AR access, like everybody else. Everything else is pretty much a wild guess!

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 15 2006, 06:38 PM

so would the obsidiman shadowrun character be best suited to being a street-sam? could any of them be magicly active?--heck could any of them even have cyber inplanted?

Posted by: Grinder Jan 15 2006, 06:40 PM

Imo an obsidiman is well suited to become a mage/shaman or an adept. It would be strange to see one with cyber installed or even being a technomancer, imo.

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 16 2006, 02:04 AM

well if an Obsidiman was a technomancer we would run the Possibility of the whole Cyberfolk/Siliconperson thing rearing it's head and we wouldn't want to bring that up too much yet would we?

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 16 2006, 03:02 AM

If memory serves, Obsidimen were stronger and tougher than trolls.

I doubt that we'll be seeing them appearing as a PC race without obscene BP costs, unless they want trolls to be left in the dust.

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 16 2006, 03:23 AM

well besides the appearances of the Earthdawn three during the 2070's what other cultural developments does everyone think will occure durring the 2070's?

Posted by: LaughingTiger Jan 16 2006, 05:35 AM

Some wizard, somewhere, will see something so horrific he will rip out his eyes with his bare hands and thrust them into a convienent fire. He or she will be found dead with a pizza box, upon which is written "This (slight smudge) is the (smudge) of Harrow. Use wisely. (Smudge) is our Doom and our Salvation."

Debate will rage for years over the smudges, making either the word "This" really "these" and exactly what "Of Harrow" he or she was referring to.

Magical scholars will eventually conclude that because the pizza toppings included anchovies, this was the Pizza of Harrow and chalk it up to bad mushrooms and Astral hallucinations.

Somewhere, a Clown painted like an Elf.. or.. or an Elf painted like a clown, I can't remember which way it goes anymore, will be enjoying a slice of mushroom and anchovy pizza and giggling. He will be caputred with a mouthful of food and immortalized on some Shadowrun sourcebook that will be the source of endless debate on Dumpshock.

Behold, I have forseen it.

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 16 2006, 05:52 AM

cool, and where was the pizza ordered From?

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 16 2006, 06:00 AM

And he actually thinks you were serious!

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 16 2006, 06:06 AM

No I am joking-I guess my Sarcasam is Too Dry-But if you can Tell me where the pizza box of harrow originated from I'll still be ok with that

Posted by: LaughingTiger Jan 16 2006, 06:57 AM

A very crappy non-national chain restaurant at the proverbial corner of Fifth and Main.

Guido's. With a hairy man on the cover.

The Guido of Harrow.

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 17 2006, 06:45 AM

I just wonder then which Horror runs said Pizza Parlor-Probably the one in the Horror's source book who when from town to town selling people stuff that would then posses them, Like Max Von Sydow in Needfull Things; Does anyone remember that Horror's Name? (And now the Horror sells pizza that posseses people-that would make for a good adventure)

Posted by: Ophis Jan 17 2006, 01:07 PM

Giftbringer. Or Giftgiver.

Nasty bugger.

Posted by: LaughingTiger Jan 17 2006, 07:26 PM

GiftBringer, one of the nastier horrors in that book.

And while he thought about taking a slice of Guido's, he decided not to.

The Horror behind Guido's is Ysgrathe. Why? When you're a couple thousand years old, why not?

Besides, anchovies create disharmony and emotional agony in everyone, what better way for a Horror to feed?

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 17 2006, 07:28 PM

yes but I thought aina took Ysthgrathe out? or did he(IT?) somehow manage to survive

Posted by: RunnerPaul Jan 17 2006, 09:34 PM

The most important rule of Horrors: The bad guy is never really dead.

No, wait, that's the most important rule of Horror Movies.

Think it still applies though.

Posted by: LaughingTiger Jan 18 2006, 06:37 AM

QUOTE (boskop-albatros)

yes but I thought aina took Ysthgrathe out? or did he(IT?) somehow manage to survive

You sure would like to think that, woudn't you?

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 18 2006, 06:41 AM

Well, at worst he just got disrupted and booted back to the metaplane from whence he came.

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 18 2006, 06:41 AM

I would like to belive that......Y dude is a bit on the strong side of the Horroi....of weakest one is Neb........no don't say IT'S NAME......the N one.....and he(it) might of made it to the sixth world

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 18 2006, 07:37 AM

QUOTE (RunnerPaul)

The most important rule of Horrors: The bad guy is never really dead.

No, wait, that's the most important rule of Horror Movies.

Think it still applies though.

and this of course Nebis reveals that truth that it Nebis is infact not Giftbringer that Nebis is taking over the world via pizza Nebis parlors but Ahzvat many-Eyes returned from the abyss Nebis! You only have to study the horrors closely Nebis Nebis to be able to see the wheels within Nebis, what is Nebis going on. Be careful Nebis though, becuase if you Nebis to deeply Nebis may be consumed NEBIS NEBIS!

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 18 2006, 07:37 AM

QUOTE (Synner)

QUOTE

Like I said, one of Yamatetsu's top dogs (and a huge racist, who did a 180 flip on that issue) SURGEd into a '900lb rock man".

Or the author was just really into Ben Grimm.

who wrote that piece BTW? Or is this an admission?

Posted by: JongWK Jan 18 2006, 01:53 PM

I did.

*ducks*