Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ SR3 melee question

Posted by: juzzman Jan 15 2006, 10:36 PM

In the rules it says that you can make multiple melee attacks, but that you get a cumulative +2 penaly per extra target (0 on first, +2 on second, +4 on third etc etc). But It doesnt list a limit on how many targets, or how close together etc.

Common sense says that the player wont be attacking many due to the punative target numbers, but should it be that open, that he/she can take swings at 10+ people during one initiative pass? (assuming he/she is running through a crowd of victims) The target numbers would be horrific, but well, some smart players might find a way to abuse it.

Juzzman

Posted by: Straight Razor Jan 15 2006, 11:07 PM

number of targets no. but. reach is 1 meter normal +1 meter per point of reach.
human unarmed 1 meter
troll with a katana 1 + 1 = 2 meters

Posted by: juzzman Jan 16 2006, 12:35 AM

In a combat phase a person can have a melee attack (complex action) as well as move, yes?
Does he have to do one then the other, or can he do the two simultaneously?

If so, what's to stop him (for example) running along a line of 10 people and getting a melee attack at all of them if he has the movement?

Also, if you had 3 initiative passes, could you mix up movement speeds? ie run for the first pass, walk for the second, and run for the third?

Thanks

Juzzman

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 16 2006, 01:53 AM

Reminds me of that GIF where that cartoon guy is mowing down schoolgirls by the dozen with a katana.

Posted by: mfb Jan 16 2006, 02:09 AM

someone turned my orgy of balletic violence into a goddamn cartoo--er, yes, that was hilarious, and not based on real life events.

i limit the number of targets according to how many you can reach with your move.

Posted by: Robotech Master Jan 16 2006, 02:38 AM

If I had to call it, I would say that you could run and hit as many as you could in a move, but there'd be another roll if you were using a edged weapon to see if it got stuck...

Posted by: Glyph Jan 16 2006, 05:11 AM

The thing is, the person attempting such an attack would probably also suffer the Friends in Melee penalty due to being outnumbered. Modifiers in melee combat are a much bigger deal than they are in ranged combat, both because there are fewer of them, and because melee combat is a dice contest where you can take damage even if you are the attacker (this has been fixed in SR4). If you are rolling against a Target Number of 10 or more, and your opponents are rolling against a Target Number of 2, then even a master of unarmed combat will generally not come out ahead. On top of this, Combat Pool only refreshes at the beginning of the round, not with each action. So you would quickly use up your own Combat Pool, while the victims of your attack could call spend their own Combat Pool freely.

So while attacking multiple targets might be susceptible to abuse in rare circumstances, most of the time it is a very bad idea.

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 16 2006, 05:51 AM

Unless you're engaging in an orgy of violence against Japanese schoolgirls, whose counterattacks aren't going to do anything, anyway.

Posted by: Critias Jan 16 2006, 11:19 AM

It can be a good time during surprise rounds, though, when they can't swing back.

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 16 2006, 11:27 AM

It's not like their swings will do anything. 3M Stun at most, and if you're wearing any impact armor and have a Body of 5+ you'll soak it down to nothing easily.

Posted by: juzzman Jan 16 2006, 08:43 PM

Thanks for that,

i guess i'll leave it at that for now (ie sure you can move and attack multiple targets with one melee attack, but look at your target numbers!), and deal with any abuses if and when they occur. I cant see it coming up too often. In general i like to try and head off problems before they have a chance, but with no official reason not to, it can be house ruled when necessary.

Juzzman

Posted by: nt326 Jan 17 2006, 03:30 AM

Note: this is all opinion, and not book backed. This is what i would say if I were GM and my player wanted to taked down a bunch of people.
I think perhaps a stipulation should be placed on the attacks that are similar to the cleave rules for DND. You can only continue the melee attack if the last attack was successful and did damage, basiaclly making sure you can still move with ur weapon. Some weapons wouldn't make sense at all, like say a fist, or baseball bat, since each attack would have to be a separate motion to get any damage done. So basically the attack would have to be effective as one fluid motion, no second swings really, and each successive attack would have to do damage for the player to continue. You gotta make it make sense.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 17 2006, 04:21 AM

QUOTE (nick012000)

Unless you're engaging in an orgy of violence against Japanese schoolgirls, whose counterattacks aren't going to do anything, anyway.

You must not watch much anime. All Japanese schoolgirls are ninja.

Posted by: Glyph Jan 17 2006, 06:57 AM

Besides, you would also have to worry about all of the tentacle monsters getting upset about you tresspassing on their turf.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 17 2006, 07:39 PM

I'm going to consider it a minor victory for dumpshock that we managed to go six posts after the first mention of japanese schoolgirls before we made it to tentacle monsters. This may be a new record.

Posted by: Aku Jan 17 2006, 07:56 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

but notice, it's only the second post that actually mentions or references said school girls. A minor victory indeed...

Posted by: Pendaric Jan 17 2006, 11:07 PM

I doubt this elaboration will be particularly efficacious but I have a PC in exactly the same position. Multiple opponents not schoolgirls and tentacles. Thats a different PC.
In personal combat the aim is to minimise the vectors of attack by your opponents, so the standard practise is to attempt to place your opponents in one anothers way. If this fails and your completely surrounded, an averaged sized meta human would really have only six enemies in effective strike range while standing.
(Reminiscent of AD&D)
So I will rule that in the worst case scenario for my PC, he can at maximum strike down only six in one complex action.
Even with two hands.
Should his devilish luck remain with him.
Which Eventually It Won't .

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 18 2006, 02:09 AM

QUOTE (Pendaric)

So I will rule that in the worst case scenario for my PC, he can at maximum strike down only six in one complex action.

If this character is regularly getting 9s against everyone, enough 9s to deal damage, you need to check those dice rather than changing the rules.

~J

Posted by: Pendaric Jan 18 2006, 10:34 PM

Changed the dice set, it's the player not the calamity cubes.
(D6's SR3 instead of honest D10's)
I have yet to extend myself as a harsh ref yet in this game but at TN's of 18 vs Tn 2 contested for the final assailant, am not overly concerned. Six is a number based on space instead of five based off rule implication.
Hell we're to damn old to want to cheat in a game, that envolves being less cynical.

Posted by: Zeel De Mort Jan 19 2006, 01:38 PM

Well don't forget that anyone trying this sort of thing could well be an adept, and as such will likely have some centering, improved ability, and an attuned weapon to factor in there. This is in addition to the Multistrike maneouver, reach from the weapon, huge number of dice, and all the rest of it. That should up his chances quite a lot.

You know the schoolgirl slayer will have all that and more.

Posted by: Pendaric Jan 19 2006, 04:09 PM

True.
Easily stopped but we have all seen such individuals who just do not understand that all the stats in the world won't make up for common and strategic sense.
My player in questions summons it up best,
"Those that live by the sword die by those that live by the gun."

Posted by: Lindt Jan 19 2006, 07:27 PM

Its all and good, making as many attacks as you want, but that friends in meele bonus is just bugger-all powerfull. Someone wanna point them to the "Evil phys ad vs girl scouts" example? Oh, wait, I can http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=3436&st=0&#entry88976

Now, this has indeed been a much debated accorance. So someone try it with all the fun optional rules.

Posted by: John Campbell Jan 19 2006, 07:44 PM

QUOTE (Pendaric)

"Those that live by the sword die by those that live by the gun."

Only at a range of more than about five meters.

Posted by: Dawnshadow Jan 19 2006, 08:21 PM

Only when they lose initiative and don't have the speed to close.

I really wouldn't want to bet against the swordsman-magician with a force 6+ levitate, magic 6+, and force 6+ spirit using movement......

That being a minimum of 216m per turn, assuming all successes (which is rather easy to get).

Posted by: mfb Jan 19 2006, 08:25 PM

the swordsman's reaction time might also be slowed if he were burdened with, say, http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0805051sword1.html.

Posted by: Nyxll Jan 19 2006, 08:52 PM

QUOTE (John Campbell)

QUOTE (Pendaric @ Jan 19 2006, 11:09 AM)

"Those that live by the sword die by those that live by the gun."

Only at a range of more than about five meters.

or able to move out to 5 meters, I would gladly run away from a swordsman to shoot him. maybe fire a few behind me as I am running to slow him down more.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jan 19 2006, 09:09 PM

A bit more than 5 meters if the sword wielder is a night one ghoul horse shamanic adept with satyr legs.

Posted by: Pendaric Jan 19 2006, 10:56 PM

On kamikazi...

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jan 22 2006, 02:29 AM

QUOTE (juzzman)

OK, firstly, attacking multiple individuals simultaneously gives you an overall +2 per target. The thing that stops you from attacking 10 people at once is that +20 TN is insurmountable. As a GM, I sometimes like to say that no more than 4 people may cluster around one guy at a time.

Now, why can't you run along a line and attack ten people at once? Because making a melee attack is a complex action, so you'd only be able to make one attack. Unless the 10 people are very close together only a few would be in range for your melee attack at any one time.

To your last question: movement is measured in terms of one combat turn, not in terms of how many times you get to go in that turn. Your actions, if you had 3 of them, would take place at 1/3, 2/3, and 3/3 your total movement allocation for that turn.

In other words, Wired Reflexes dosen't make you run faster.