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Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 16 2006, 02:01 AM

please someone just answer this question quick and with a short explanation why -Yes or No

Can A Leshy be used as a Player Character? (don't worry I'm not mixing a Leshy up with an Argopelter)-this pertains to comments from back in the original Paranormal Animals Of North America

And Don't worry grammar is good!

That is all

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 16 2006, 02:09 AM

Actually, yes, a Leshy is a plausible character. It can use magic, operate doors, wear pants, and drive cars. Its abilities are pretty minor, +1 Reaction, +1 Charisma, +2 Essence, Dual Natured, and Confusion at will. Confusion is available to any conjurer. Their +2 Essence is virtually meaningless in the face of the fact that there is no Cyberware available for Leshy characters.

-Frank

Posted by: mfb Jan 16 2006, 02:12 AM

well, that +2 essence does mean they're easier to heal with magic. but i guess that can be considered a fair trade, maybe, for all the other crap they'll have to put up with.

Posted by: Backgammon Jan 16 2006, 02:12 AM

Are Leshy sentient?

Posted by: Squinky Jan 16 2006, 02:12 AM

Couldn't they get cultured bioware? It's specifically grown for the host....

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 16 2006, 02:15 AM

never thought of that

Just imagine- BioSam Leshies coming at you- probably at some Evo facility

Posted by: Tanka Jan 16 2006, 02:16 AM

I only have one response:

Why, god, why?

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 16 2006, 02:21 AM

They'll still suffer magic loss from Essence loss, though, so they could loose their confusion power if they get too much cyber or bioware.

And they should be able to get cyber, seeing as you can give guarddogs and gaurdsharks cyberware.

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 16 2006, 02:22 AM

because shadowrun needs to evolve; I mean should the 2070's be just a sleep walk rehash of what has come before or shouldn't they be a funky extension of shadowrun's previous theams?

I perdict by 2080 Leshies will be granted some degree of Rights

Posted by: Tanka Jan 16 2006, 02:25 AM

...

I honestly have no clue how to respond to this. Which is a first.

I reiterate: Why, god, why?

Posted by: mfb Jan 16 2006, 02:35 AM

yes, because the natural progression of a dystopian future is towards... utopia? wait, that's not right.

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 16 2006, 02:45 AM

because it would just be the cutting edge and the cutting edge isn't always asteticly pretty---was Kurt Cobain astecticly pleasing when he came out to most people, no, but he advanced the culture-(and his Suiciding by the evil Guv'ment Mediduh Con-plex proved back in 1994 that Pop Cult-ture is an Evil System of Human Sacrifice, but that is another story)--so any ways BioSam Leshies may not occur for another few years but they will eventually because some wacked out corp scientist will probably do it anyway

That is why

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 16 2006, 02:48 AM

and yes the natural progression of a dystopian future is toward......an even more bizaar dystopia

Posted by: Tanka Jan 16 2006, 02:49 AM

...

No. Just... No.

Leshies will never become mainstream because they will never populate enough of the planet to become a major sub-species such as Human, Elf, Dwarf, Ork or Troll.

And also; because if they become sentient, no doctor can legally modify them for their own sick pleasures.

Good god. Why?!

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 16 2006, 02:53 AM

Well, look at all the street samurai for one thing.

Besides, most of the cyber research is done in extraterritorial corporate facilities anyway.

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 16 2006, 03:00 AM

Nick mentions corp extraterritorality which is why they at Least at first will be able to get away with experimenting on Leshies

and they will only be on the fringes of the mainstream; it's not like one will become President of the UCAS (But if a Dragon can do it....just kidding.....[maybe ])

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 16 2006, 03:08 AM

It takes an act of Congress for a non-Homo Sapien to get a SIN, and be recognized by society at large as a real person.

The only way this could change is if some pro-paracritters group convinces a bunch of dragons to fund a bunch of Senators re-election campaigns, and uses said influence to lobby for an alteration of the existing legislation.

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 16 2006, 03:17 AM

well around the late 2070's elections (2078-2080) I bet that will be a campaige Issue(rights for Leshies/Sprites/Lizardfolk/Rockfolk!!)- and if that happens I bet the real radical Human Nationists/Alamos 20K types will start talking about a human's only homeland

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 16 2006, 04:11 AM

It takes a UCAS for a sentient paracritter to get a SIN in the UCAS. The NAN pretty much grants equal right to all sentients across the board, citizenship included. The Tirs are pretty friendly to sentient paras, as well. Certainly, there are other countries thhat are para friendly. Among the AAAs, some might see a benefit in giving jobs to sentient paras (as opposed to enslaving them).

It is possible for a sentient para to have a fairly good life if it lives in the right place and doesn't eat the wrong people.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 16 2006, 05:21 AM

While a Leshy could in theory get cultured bioware (they're never going to be able to get "generic" bioware, they don't have the "generic" human proteins), that would still require someone making it. For metahumans, there's a wide variety of genetics on file, and a huge body of research put into the subject, for Leshy there isn't.

Someone would have to invent every single piece of bioware all over again for Leshy before there would be any bioware to put into Leshy. Some of the groundwork is done, these things have already been invented for a non-Leshy species, but there's still years of work to be done in a field that frankly noone gives a damn about.

Same problem as for Leshy cyberware. Before it could be done, there'd have to be a crap tonne of research into the field, and the field doesn't even have a name because noone cares. Dragon datajacks and draconic trode interfaces were really hard to do, but the dragons themselves were willing to bankroll the project. Unless and until a Leshy becomes a high mucketty-muck in Shiawase, Evo, MCT, UO, or Neonet, there just isn't going to be any Leshy cyberware.

Of course, you could play a Leshy shaman with your plant spirits and your forest loving. That could be a viable character. But you aren't ever going to have a Leshy street samurai. Not in 2070, not in 2080. Not for a considerable time after Leshy buy themselves into world capitalism, something they have shown no interest in doing over the last 40 years.

-Frank

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 16 2006, 05:54 AM

Well, I'll point to the cyberdogs and cybersharks as examples as to why Leshies can get cyber.

Of course, he gets the 'critters with cyberware' psychotic rage as well...

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 16 2006, 05:56 AM

They might buy into mainsteam culture by accident--buy being the victims of experiments--then the Para-critter rights folks will step in and soon the Leshies will be there demanding their Just Respect & Rights

Posted by: mintcar Jan 16 2006, 12:58 PM

I say if you want to make a more high fantasy setting of Shadowrun, do so. Just invent a timeline were centaurs, leshy, sprites, obsidimen, scrang (however do you spell that?), giants, gouls, vampires, goblins, aggropelters, sasquashes, free spirits, drakes, munchkins, felix cats, shape changers and god knows what all have equal rights and crowd the streets in your average sprawl. Make them all playable characters and eligable for all cyber mods and magic that any other character can have. And when your tired of that, let the players have their choice among the great dragons and have a blast playing chess games with the world. Nobody here should give a damn what you do with your game.

You have to understand that most of us did that kind of stuff a lot one or more decades ago (if at all, I swear some people never had a childhood ) , and want a less far out setting than that.

Posted by: Critias Jan 16 2006, 01:22 PM

...

Posted by: Oracle Jan 16 2006, 01:33 PM

I like the idea of Leshys in my game - as food for the Drop Bears. o_O

Posted by: Grinder Jan 16 2006, 01:45 PM

Posted by: Space Ghost Jan 17 2006, 12:26 AM

i'm not exactly sure what a leshy is, but if they can be
a. attractive
b. charismatic
then you might consider some sort of leshy pop icon getting the ball rolling. Anyone who captures the hearts of millions of UCAS citizens would be more likely to gain rights.

Then again, since i don't know what a leshy is, what i've just said might be ridiculous.

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 17 2006, 12:57 AM

Yeah, I'd say that would be possible.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 17 2006, 03:03 AM

Lone Star could give a criminal SIN to a stapler if it wanted to.

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 17 2006, 06:51 AM

This is great-This one question has generated some great brainstorming

What we need to do now is just have a list of all possible alternative races that can be player characters

Posted by: otaku mike Jan 17 2006, 07:21 AM

I want to play a Merrow in his mobile transparent watertank.
Oh no, wait, I want to play a Naga rigger with tons of drones (useful to open the door or pick that damn fork)!

Mike

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 17 2006, 09:56 AM

And the fun just never ends!

well A merrow and a naga are pushing the crediblity even for me

I made a list of alternative player races once but here goes again quickly

More Likely
HMHVV strains that leave your INTELEGENCE in tact
HMHVV strains that turn your brain to mush(bladersnaches included)
Regular Sasquatches/Yetis and other local varients (Yowies?)
Non-Great form Dragons (of course someone will end up wanting great form rules-just the dragon version of IE's anyways)
The regular Earthdawn three (Windlings, T'Skrang & Obsidimen)
Leshies and Maybe Argopelters (Are Argopelters Playable??)
Jackelmen

Very difficult
Merrows, Nagas, Elaphants, Dolphins, & Chipanzees

Need Horrors
Ulk-men

Probably impossible
Jubruq

That just about covers it I think

Posted by: Aku Jan 17 2006, 11:32 AM

you honestly think it would be possible to play as an elephant, dolphin, or chimp? Atleast merrows and nagas i can presume can talk, since they're awakened, but the other three have no chance of being able to communicate with the rest of the team, EVEN if you give them lingua softs, and a dolphin has to stay in the water, and, and.. just, ugh...

Posted by: RunnerPaul Jan 17 2006, 12:15 PM

But the Navy uses dolphins for anti-submarine electronic warfare, right? Presumably those mil-spec implants and computer infiltration training they get could be applied to other tasks, such as cracking the encryption on a courier's datalock.

(Yes, I know this post will probably get me in trouble. Grin/Duck/Run)

Posted by: Aku Jan 17 2006, 12:18 PM

i remember seeing someone post something about that before, but i dont remember reading the article in it's entirety. But, if i were to beleive it, i'd imagine the dolphins being used as a mobile sonar station, and not a "go here and tell us whats there" sonar station. So, while, yes, a dolphin who's off the coast of north carolina will tell you that you're in the clear, that doesnt do jack poop for you if you need to know whats off the Gulf coast of florida.

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 17 2006, 12:39 PM

Elephants, Dolphins, Agropelters, and a few HMHVV variants are non-sentient, and therefore non-playable.

Leshy however, are just as playable as shapeshifters are: they're critters that look like metahumans, are as smart as metahumans and act like metahumans, but aren't.

Nagas have no hands, and cannot speak without the aid of spells. Unless you plan on playing a magician with Magic Fingers and Trid Entertainment in sustaining foci, they'll be completely unplayable.

Merrows are water-based critters. Unless you're planning on playing a pirate campaign, they'll be completely unusable. You'll still need to spend knowledge points to learn English, though- your natural language would be the Merrow tongue.

Dragons are simply too fragging powerful. Their Str scores alone are worth 270+ BP. Now, a dragon hatchling converted from the unpublished Earthdawn Dragons PDF might be playable, though you'd need a dang good explanation as to how you've managed to escape the scaly claws of whichever Great Dragon was raising you. Even so, however, the fact that dragons can instinctively manipulate mana to produce whatever effect they wish without needing a spell formula means that it'll still be one mean little bugger, and possibly overpowered.

The sentient HMHVV strains are much less powerful than they were in previous editions, but they're still way too powerful for PCs.

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 17 2006, 01:23 PM

For an aquatic campaign-
Merrow (50 BP)
Reaction +4 (+40 BP)
Strength +4 (+40 BP)
Body +2 (+20 BP)
Magic -2 (-20 BP)
Uneducated (-20 BP)
Duel Natured (-10 BP)
Speed 5/20 (15/45 swimming) (negligable)
Awakened (negligable)

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 17 2006, 04:51 PM

all great stuff but I need to know is an Argopelter Sentinent & Therefor playable?

Posted by: Azralon Jan 17 2006, 04:58 PM

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 17 2006, 07:24 PM

because short of bringing back up the Reticulan Grays, Star Warriors, and the Mother Wheel(which I'll just leave at that)--Argopelter Player Characters would represent just about the outer limits of shadowrun-so I'll ask again are Argopelters sentinet enough to be used as player characters?


of course you could always try a jackelman social adept

Posted by: Azralon Jan 17 2006, 07:28 PM

I see.

For what it's worth, I strongly recommend playing and mastering standard Shadowrun before seeking to move into uncharted territory.

Posted by: RunnerPaul Jan 17 2006, 09:32 PM

Posted by: Aku Jan 17 2006, 09:38 PM

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 18 2006, 05:21 AM

Just some humor

Episode of of what wyrmtalk has become in 2071 hosted by Jackelman social adept Larry Drool

This is Larry Drool(gerrrr....) and my guests tonight are Leshy MossyFur in the studio (lick...lick) and via WiFi Argopelter Throwhard(YEAHHHHHH.YEAHHHH..)

Larry: so Mossy should(gargle gargle) Argopelters have the same rights as were just granted to Leshies?

Mossy: NO Leshies work hard for rights, Argopelters ride coattails!

Larry: and your responce(woof woof) Throwhard?

Throwhard: Argopelters sent-int too.....we needs righies too...demi-crats give us-es righies

Mossy: demicraps stink we Leshies votes Rep-ug-li-can

Larry: (growlllll....) we'll be right back

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 18 2006, 05:22 AM

so I just need an Opinion....could Argopelters be used as player caracters?

Posted by: Squinky Jan 18 2006, 05:30 AM

I am so going to play an Elephant Street sam. They'd get crazy high body mods and be total badasses....Give him some spurs and mount him with gun turrets and get ready to rock out...

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 18 2006, 05:54 AM

Again, elephants, dolphins, and agropelters are not sentient.

It's like asking if a dog can be a player character.

Posted by: Squinky Jan 18 2006, 05:55 AM

But....I was going to take the human looking flaw....

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 18 2006, 06:34 AM

the elephant and dolphin possiblities come form the will of the big d where he offered big for the first communication between humans and either elephants or dolphins

I guess it looks like I should give up on the argopelters though

Posted by: otaku mike Jan 18 2006, 07:38 AM

I wouldn't allow aGRopelters.
You seem to have forgotten about the Dours though. If you wanna play an ape-like character, Dours are rumored to be at least half sentient. Some variants (the rare white dour mentioned in SoA) are suggested as fully sentient.

Mike

Posted by: otaku mike Jan 18 2006, 07:43 AM

For Naga and Merrows, a single sustained spell would be enough: Shapechange (metahuman of your choice).
I'd fail to see the point in playing such a character if it ends up looking like a normal metahuman though

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 18 2006, 11:23 AM

maybe you should step back for a sec and look at this from another perspective

What possible purpose would an elephant have for shadowrunning? For that matter, what Mr. Johnson would actually pay an agropelter to do anything!?

Naga: create sound sustaining focus. I can at least hink of one purpose for a naga to run the shadows. To gain money and support for Angkor. Although the meet in Matchsticks would certainly be ..... interesting.

Posted by: Squinky Jan 18 2006, 01:45 PM

I want to play a chimpanzee Face character.

We need to make up metavarients for them too, since science says they are pretty close to human. So of course we should have elf,ork,dwarf, and troll type varients for em all....


Seriously.

Posted by: mintcar Jan 18 2006, 04:33 PM

What about free spirits? If I was in the kind of game were you could play all kinds of crazy shit I´d choose a free spirit.

Posted by: Azralon Jan 18 2006, 05:49 PM

my character was originally a gnome mystic adept until the crash then he became a technomancer who knows all about magic so he developed a way to transfer his mind to the computers on mars and traveled back and forth so many times at the speed of light that he went back in time and possessed a night one cyberzombie ninja who did software pirating and made a billion copies of his mind seeded throughout the entire first matrix and became deus who genetically engineered a mystic adept out of a human form free spirit and vampiric shapeshifter dna during the shutdown which turned out to be the first mystic adept guy the gm said it was ok what do you think

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 18 2006, 06:14 PM

Posted by: Backgammon Jan 18 2006, 06:20 PM

Posted by: mintcar Jan 18 2006, 06:46 PM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jan 18 2006, 06:55 PM

Posted by: mintcar Jan 18 2006, 07:00 PM

Hardly limited. It can travel the astral plane without worrying about going back for the body, and if it needs to it can materialize anywere. That´s freedom I tell you. Noo physical bonds. Doesn´t even have to eat if it doesn´t want to. It´s got all the advantages of the material world and none of the drawbacks.

Posted by: Azralon Jan 18 2006, 07:05 PM

Posted by: blakkie Jan 18 2006, 07:06 PM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jan 18 2006, 07:07 PM

Oh, yeah. The freedom to accidentally leave everything behind you wanted to take with you... including your dinner.

Posted by: blakkie Jan 18 2006, 07:11 PM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jan 18 2006, 07:14 PM

Posted by: Squinky Jan 18 2006, 07:15 PM

Posted by: Azralon Jan 18 2006, 07:16 PM

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jan 18 2006, 07:26 PM

Posted by: Squinky Jan 18 2006, 08:14 PM

I don't use smileys, but I swear to God this thread makes me want to start....

Posted by: mintcar Jan 18 2006, 09:09 PM

Do so. People who think smileys are stupid have forgotten something: We are using written language in conversations that follow the rules of spoken language. These are not letters we post. These posts are more akin to comments in a discussion. Smileys do fill a purpous when chatting on the internet, even if you've got a good vocabulary. All pristige aside; it's just easier not to missunderstand someone who does use them.

Especially if you're hoping to get some joke across. It's not easy to read between the lines when there's just one of them. (speaking generaly)

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 18 2006, 10:08 PM

How about just the classic offspring of a magician and an undikoted ally spirit.
Considering how many magicians have sex with their allies and how many don't practice safe sex, it is bound to happen.

To make it even more fun the half spirit would be 100% mundane.

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 19 2006, 02:18 AM

I'm back

First of all the Gnome mystic adept thing is too out there even for me; it made my head hurt

Secondly-You got me on Dours-don't know what they are, please clue me in

Thirdly When I did my list I forgot to mention Leafers(I knew I forgot something), They would be near the end of More Likly with the Jackelmen

and Lastly(fourthly)- On my other thread about Single Spell Adepts I haven't gotton any feedback on my idea for A Psionicly based Single Spell Adept; what would basicly be the shadowrun equivalent of mutants(yes like the X-men) if you have any feed back for that idea please post it there

Later

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 19 2006, 06:52 AM

Posted by: Azralon Jan 19 2006, 03:27 PM

Posted by: blakkie Jan 19 2006, 03:48 PM

Posted by: mintcar Jan 19 2006, 05:49 PM

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11282

Posted by: blakkie Jan 19 2006, 09:19 PM

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jan 19 2006, 10:13 PM

just to ask again what is a Dour?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 20 2006, 02:41 PM

Big monkey-thing, IIRC. Definitely has a small write-up in Critters. Not sure if it has a bigger writeup in one of the Paranormal Animals books, or somewhere else.

Posted by: mintcar Jan 20 2006, 10:41 PM