Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ More Overpowered Spells?

Posted by: blalien Jan 17 2006, 10:07 AM

So I was working on char gen with one of my players, who made a combat mage. With a Spellcasting of 6 and a Magic of 5, we noticed several spells that just seemed incredibly overpowered, specifically, Magic Fingers, Turn to Goo, and Increase Reflexes. I had thought Increase [Attribute] was overpowered but then realized I had misread the rules. Is there, again, something I'm missing here, or should I just shut up and say to myself, "If the PCs can do it, then so can the enemies?"

Posted by: Liper Jan 17 2006, 10:40 AM

hits determine how powerful reflexes are, don't forget your good friend astral wars (which will turn off spells)

Posted by: blalien Jan 17 2006, 10:44 AM

Yeah, but even so, combined Magic + Spellcasting + Force of 5 = 16 dice. Getting 4 hits with that is easy. I've never played Shadowrun before, so I can't really gauge what's powerful, but giving the gunslinger four passes per round that easily seems quite good.

Posted by: Tashio Jan 17 2006, 10:57 AM

You roll Magic + Spellcasting, you don't add force.

Posted by: Oracle Jan 17 2006, 11:46 AM

Powerfull <> Overpowered. Turn to Goo is much more strange than overpowered.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 17 2006, 12:16 PM

Please explain the 'overpowered' so we can explain why it's not. I can't think of any way Magic Fingers is overpowered. Increased Reflexes tends to cause drain when cast at the necessary force (4+) for maximum use, and choose between +2 to TNs while sustaining, or additional Karma Cash for the Sustaining Focus. Not sure how Turn to Goo is overpowered, but don't forget that it's not permanent...

Sphynx

Posted by: Azralon Jan 17 2006, 03:05 PM

QUOTE (blalien)

As Tashio mentioned, you're not supposed to be adding Force to the roll. So he'd be rolling 11 dice, which means 3 hits is usual fare and 4 hits comes up fairly often.

Also, the guy you're looking at has a rather high Magic rating and a world-class Spellcasting skill. He's invested at least (15 Magician + 40 Magic + 24 Spellcasting + 3 Spell) 82 BPs in order to cast one spell at Force 5 and suffer only Stun drain.

With regards to what's powerful: You can ask any 3 veterans and hear approximately 7.15 different answers. My personal stance is that in Shadowrun it's not so much about "raw power" as it is "adequate intel" and "useful diversity." That's where magicians really shine -- they have a lot of info-gathering capacity and a large bag of tricks to spontaneously draw from.

However, in more concrete terms, if that mage you mentioned above cast the ol' standby of Manabolt at Force 5, the target would be using their Willpower (+ Counterspelling if available) to resist about 8P or 9P damage on average. The caster would then soak 2S drain on their Willpower + (Logic if hermetic or Charisma if shamanic). That level of drain is easily shrugged off, on average, by a caster with typical human attributes (3's).

Alternately, a jacked-up samurai could fire two rounds from his/her Predator 4 at the same target and do pretty much the same thing at the cost of two bullets.

Posted by: Azralon Jan 17 2006, 03:08 PM

QUOTE (Sphynx @ Jan 17 2006, 08:16 AM)

I can't think of any way Magic Fingers is overpowered.

The most "overpowered" I was ever able to get MF was as a guided grenade delivery system. The second runner-up was the remote use of shock gloves when my magician had a very good Unarmed skill; kind of a melee-sniper thing.

So it's not so much overpowered as it could be "overuseful," but that's (typical) Shadowrun magic for you.

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 17 2006, 05:27 PM

Is Turn to Stone permanent?

Posted by: Lagomorph Jan 17 2006, 05:31 PM

Petrify and Turn to Goo are both sustained, meaning that when you stop sustaining, the effects go away

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 17 2006, 05:37 PM

Awwww... no insta-kill!!!

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 17 2006, 07:03 PM

Just get a chainsaw and behead the statue then drop the spell. Anything that instantly disables someone might as well be an insta-kill since you can kill his hoop while he is disabled.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 17 2006, 07:14 PM

Turn to Goo/Petrify is better than an instant kill because:

1. It can be used to kidnap people.
2. It can be used to transport people.
3. It can be used to protect people in dangerous situations.
4. It can substitute for a stabilization spell.
5. You have the choice of killing or not killing each target separately.

It is worse than an instant kill because:

1. Your enemies can remove its effects by dropping your wizard.
2. It requires that you sustain the spell throughout the entire combat.
3. If you get driven off, all your opponents eventually come back to life.

I think it's a fine spell, I wouldn't call it overpowered or weak. The only thing that hacks me off is the fact that they say list "cyberware" in the things not-transformed, even though cyberware that has been implanted is considered part of the living body and should transform.

-Frank

Posted by: blalien Jan 17 2006, 07:22 PM

Alright, I get what you're saying. Now I have another question. What exactly is Force used for in spells like Increase Reflexes and Magic Fingers, which have no variable effects besides the Spellcasting test and nobody resisting the spell?

Posted by: Azralon Jan 17 2006, 07:23 PM

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

The only thing that hacks me off is the fact that they say list "cyberware" in the things not-transformed, even though cyberware that has been implanted is considered part of the living body and should transform.

Same here; I wonder what caused that little mention to appear in the spell description. Did they want people's cranial commlinks to still be hackable when they're goo/stone? Was it to preserve the bonus to Body and/or armor from certain implants?

Gotta be something like that.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 17 2006, 07:24 PM

The Force is the maximum number of hits. That's the primary limitation whether the spell is resisted or not.

-Frank

Posted by: Azralon Jan 17 2006, 07:25 PM

QUOTE (blalien @ Jan 17 2006, 03:22 PM)

You cannot generate more hits from casting a spell than the Force of the spell itself.

For instance, Increase Reflexes needs to be cast at Force 4 at least to get its full effect. If you cast it at Force 1, the best you can do is get +1 Initiative, +1 IP.

EDIT: Curse my metal body, I wasn't fast enough!

Posted by: blalien Jan 17 2006, 07:51 PM

Okay, so in summary...

For direct combat spells, you roll a Magic + Spellcasting Test vs. his Body or Willpower. If it hits, the total damage is your net hits + Force. For indirect combat spells, you roll Magic + Spellcasting vs. his Reaction. If it hits, you add your net hits to Force, then the enemy rolls Body + half Armor to resist damage.

For any other kind of spell, Force simply determines the maximum number of net hits you can score on the Magic + Spellcasting vs. his whatever.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 17 2006, 07:55 PM

Not net hits, total hits. If you cast at Force 3, only 3 of the hits on your spellcasting test count, so if their resistance test gets 3 hits, your spell doesn't work - regardless of how many 5s you actually rolled on the dice.

-Frank

Posted by: Azralon Jan 17 2006, 08:01 PM

QUOTE (blalien)

For direct combat spells, you roll a Magic + Spellcasting Test vs. his Body or Willpower. If it hits, the total damage is your net hits + Force. For indirect combat spells, you roll Magic + Spellcasting vs. his Reaction. If it hits, you add your net hits to Force, then the enemy rolls Body + half Armor to resist damage.

This paragraph looks good, though.

Posted by: Phoenix (A-Team) Jan 17 2006, 08:11 PM

The detail about cyberware not turning to goo is a reference to SR1, where the Turn to Goo spell originated from.

VERY broken... would be the first words to escape someone's mouth if they considered all the facts.

Why? Because mages would typically "Goo" a cybersam enemy, have a fellow team member remove the cyberware components from the pile of jello, then release the spell and watch the target die in screaming agony if their cyberware kept them alive. (Imagine losing your cybertorso and then watching your inards spill to the floor around you after the spell drops. Or losing your cyber skull and having your brain exposed!) And if not, then the empty space in their bodies would simply cause them a lot of grief and agony while the mage and their team made off with the unharmed cyber-goods. Black Market cyberware markets of the SR4 era are likely to employ magicians with such a spell simply because of this fact.

I agree that if the cyberware is paid for with essence, it should be part of you and thusly be turned to mercury goo along with the rest of your body. But... somebody enjoyed the advantage/danger of having such a spell in the game. Cybersams have something all new to fear from magicians now. Forget essence, death by cyber-loss!

Posted by: Azralon Jan 17 2006, 08:16 PM

Considering the damage to the stone/goo victim that would have to be done to successfully salvage most types of cyberware, it'd probably be more convenient just to shoot the poor guy in his transformed head. Drop the spell and let them bleed out, then cart the body to someone with medical skills.

Posted by: Phoenix (A-Team) Jan 17 2006, 08:22 PM

I wouldn't even try with a patrified target, but the idea behind the Goo is that one can simply push through the goo with a gloved hand and pluck the 'wares right out of 'em. Pretty sickening thought if you ask me. But yeah, I'd have to agree that... aside from the risk of harming the 'wares with your bullet, a well placed one would do a good job of pacifying them. Long enough, at least, for a street doc or organ legger to make quick work of them.

Posted by: Kerberos Jan 17 2006, 08:26 PM

The goo spell does seem overpowered to me, I mean unless your opponent is a troll then magic + spelcasting will be significantly higher than the targets body, and if you win then he's goo and can be safely dispensed with.

Posted by: Azralon Jan 17 2006, 08:29 PM

The goo has a barrier Armor rating equal to Body + net hits, just like the stone from Petrify.

One could argue that this represents how hard it is to do lasting damage to a fluid, but since it's a "sticky, glue-like substance" that reasoning could be extended to say it's equally as hard to pull things out of the mess. Kinda like trying to pick your hair out of the wad of chewing gum stuck on your head.

You're definitely not turning anyone into nice, pliable, low-tension Jell-o and picking their cyberwhatsis out like a piece of fruit. It's a sticky mass that's dense enough to slow down bullets.

Posted by: Phoenix (A-Team) Jan 17 2006, 08:34 PM

That's definitely a much more comforting thought. I am still unclear as to whether this goo is opaque, as glue typically is, or if it is transparent. Or somewhere in between perhaps.

That would be a huge determining factor as to whether one could even know what 'wares are in you, never mind the difficulty of plucking them out without damaging them.

Posted by: BishopMcQ Jan 17 2006, 08:45 PM

Simple way around it would be to create a specialized combat spell that only damages the goo created by Turn To Goo. (This of course would require spell creation rules, but those could be house-ruled until Street Magic comes out...) Then you slag the goo and the cyberware is perfectly undamaged as the goo fries off in specially twisted bits of mana.

This of course removes the game balance aspects of the initial spell

Posted by: Phoenix (A-Team) Jan 17 2006, 08:54 PM

A sound plan with pretty results for the 'caster.

Only hole in it that I can think of is the idea that cyberware is bought with essence. This being true (based in 3rd edition rules, but unknown if it carries over to 4th) means that the 'ware it is part of you. As it is part of you, it cannot be targeted, just as a 'caster can't target a manabolt at your right hand. Or so it use to be...

Posted by: RunnerPaul Jan 17 2006, 09:29 PM

Ah, but they're not targeting the cyber, they're targeting the goo.

Posted by: Aku Jan 17 2006, 09:30 PM

but, since the cyber is part of you it should be turning to goo as well.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 17 2006, 09:39 PM

QUOTE (Aku)

but, since the cyber is part of you it should be turning to goo as well.

This is the problem with the spell.
Previous SR canon suggests that there should be no way for cyberware that has been paid for with essence should be affected differenly than the rest of the body, but the spell description specifically says that cyberware is not affected.
It should turn to go, according to what we understand about SR magic, but it doesn't.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 17 2006, 10:47 PM

I think the cyberware immunity to Turn To Goo could b reconciled by comparing TTG to health spells rather than to manipulations.

Take the heal spell. If Mr. Monowhip cuts your organic right arm off then the heal spell can restore it with enough successes. If Mr. Monowhip cuts off your left cyberarm, you have to take it to a repair shop.

If someone throws hits you in the face with a baseball bat, cracking your eyesocket and detaching you retina the heal spell can fix you. If you hits you in the face with a baseball back, cracking your eye socket and destroying the lens of your cybereye, then magic can heal your skull but you have to take the cybereye to a repair shop.

Turn to Goo is classed as a manipulation, buts it is limit to living organic matter may mean that it is better to classify it as a health spell.

Posted by: Galmorez Jan 18 2006, 12:06 AM

With petrify, it says it turns the target into calcium carbonate. A tub and a few gallons of strong vinegar, and you can just dissolve the cyberware out and let the dissolved victim run down the drain before "releasing" the spell. Ick.

Casters are quite powerful in SR4, but so are non-casters. A streetsam is typically going to have more initiative passes to dish out damage. A rigger (such as they are in this edition) can have enough remote drones as to be fairly safe from being turned to goo. It's very much a rock-paper-scissors type of setup. No matter how powerful the mage, there's always something to counter it. That's why most facilities in SR have a blend of security systems in place. It takes a team to beat a team...

Posted by: Brahm Jan 18 2006, 12:14 AM

QUOTE (Galmorez)

The mole math says a bit more than just a few gallons of household vinegar.

What happens to any biological interface connections exposed to the acid while the rest of the calcium carbonate is dissolved?

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 18 2006, 12:36 AM

This idea is why there must be a great demand for professional shadowplumbers.

"It seems that one of your pipes burst because someone stuffed a mutilated human into it."

Posted by: Lagomorph Jan 18 2006, 12:46 AM

QUOTE (Brahm)

QUOTE (Galmorez @ Jan 17 2006, 07:06 PM)

The mole math says a bit more than just a few gallons of household vinegar.

What happens to any biological interface connections exposed to the acid while the rest of the calcium carbonate is dissolved?

He did mention strong vinegar, but it would have to be quite a bit of vinegar, maybe more like a shower or something.

"No one ever knew quite why the man named 'old bones' reeked of vinegar, but he always had some new cyber to sell off at a great price.."

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 18 2006, 01:10 AM

Old Bones is lossing a lot of potential profit, too. Vital organs can go for a pretty penny on the black market and the rest can be sold by weight.

Posted by: blalien Jan 18 2006, 01:25 AM

Mmm...people...

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 18 2006, 03:35 AM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

This idea is why there must be a great demand for professional shadowplumbers.

"It seems that one of your pipes burst because someone stuffed a mutilated human into it."

So call Cyber Rooter

...and away go your troubles down the drain...

Posted by: Azralon Jan 18 2006, 04:54 PM

Seriously, if you want to farm for cyberware, it's much more efficient to just knock over a shadowclinic.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 18 2006, 04:57 PM

Plus, if turn to goo has established that it is possible to affect cyberware and a person seperately, it'd probably be more efficient to just design a spell that sucks all the cyber out of a person. Maybe a Healing spell: Reject Cyberware. Permanent spell, so it has to be sustained a long time to actually suck it out, so it's basically useless in combat.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 18 2006, 07:50 PM

I wouldn't call such a spell useless at all. A permanent spell is simply sustained for many rounds before its permanency matters. It still takes effect right away.

Such a line of inquiry is dangerous at best to the Shadowrun game.

-Frank

Posted by: BishopMcQ Jan 18 2006, 08:12 PM

Reject Cyberware wouldn't necessarily forcefully eject the cyberware from the system. As a health spell it would most likely cause the body to go into shock as the antibodies attempt to reject the new organs or grafts. Perhaps short term modifiers, with long term game effects unless the victim received medical attention to fight off the allergic reaction.

Now a telekinetic manipulation that tore the cyberware out of a victim's body would be very graphic...

Posted by: Aku Jan 18 2006, 09:25 PM

QUOTE (McQuillan)

Now a telekinetic manipulation that tore the cyberware out of a victim's body would be very graphic...

Buh bye Mr. Studd/ Ms. Midngiht....

Posted by: mdynna Jan 18 2006, 09:43 PM

My take on the Turn to Goo spell was not that it was offensive, but sort of "transportational" in nature. The rules' mention of the Goo's barrier rating leads me to believe that you can't just "reach in" and snatch out Cyberware. The Goo is solid enough that to extract the Cyberware you would have to do enough damage to the Goo that it would kill the person as much as cutting the 'ware out of them in the first place would have.

The use of Turn to Goo that I see is being able to turn oneself to Goo and thus fit through small cracks/spaces not possible when in (meta)human form. In that case, the note about not turning 'ware to Goo prevents the mage from Gooifying the 'Sammie and having him squeeze into the Secret Chamber. You have to have someone with no 'ware do it.

Posted by: BishopMcQ Jan 18 2006, 09:44 PM

So how would we write that one up? Single target per piece of cyber or AoE? Limit it to specific type of cyberware?

Posted by: Azralon Jan 18 2006, 09:50 PM

QUOTE (mdynna @ Jan 18 2006, 05:43 PM)

The use of Turn to Goo that I see is being able to turn oneself to Goo and thus fit through small cracks/spaces not possible when in (meta)human form.

Unfortunately, the target of the spell is not conscious while under the effect of this spell. So you wouldn't be able to sustain it yourself.

A spell lock would obviously work, if you didn't mind staying gooey until someone came along and dispelled it. You could teach it to a Spirit of Man and have it drop the spell at a prearranged time, I suppose.

Posted by: mdynna Jan 18 2006, 10:00 PM

So then you have to cast it on another member of the party. The Adept, and "squeeze" them into the space you want. Then, when they're in, you drop the spell.

Posted by: Azralon Jan 18 2006, 10:31 PM

Absolutely.

Posted by: Phoenix (A-Team) Jan 18 2006, 11:49 PM

It's all in how one percieves a spell, as to whether it's defensive or offensive in nature. Definitely not a bad idea, using it to do such things... although I'm trying to imagine stuffing a gelatinous body with barrier rating Body + Net Hits under a locked door. I suppose that would be a GM call in the end.

In the end, organ legging is wrong my good Runners. And knocking over Shadowclinics is an even bigger no-no, as that drives availability of such 'wares through the roof... not to mention there'd be nobody to install the goods in you or your friends when the time comes for upgrades.

But in the end, I think it's proven that the simplest way is to put on the gasmasks and deploy the nerve-gas grenades. Sort out the bodies and run the MAD scanner over them all, then dispatch them and bring them to your most trusted Street Doc or Organ Legger contact.

Posted by: RunnerPaul Jan 19 2006, 03:26 AM

QUOTE (Brahm)

QUOTE (Galmorez @ Jan 17 2006, 07:06 PM)

The mole math says a bit more than just a few gallons of household vinegar.

Well, isn't that why they made the spell Acid Stream?