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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Everyday Gear for Runners Item Poll
Posted by: stevebugge Jan 17 2006, 09:55 PM
So this is the first should we or shouldn't we use it item for the Everyday Gear for Runners project I'm working with Redshirt on. We're still in the brainstorm and elinitate stuff phase, but I thought I'd try to generate a little buzz and get some opinions by periodically posting polls on some of the more oddball things we've thought of.
Posted by: emo samurai Jan 17 2006, 10:22 PM
You could use it if it were monofilament floss. And you had diamond teeth.
Posted by: stevebugge Jan 17 2006, 10:28 PM
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to ask if we meant monowire floss.
No I mean good old fashioned dental floss, waxed of unwaxed in your choice of flavors. My bias is that it's useful, it has decent tensile strength for the diameter, comes in a convenient carrying and dispensing case, and is cheap and completely legal.
Posted by: emo samurai Jan 17 2006, 10:30 PM
Yeah, but in terms of sheer tensile strength, it's not nearly strong enough to choke anything larger than a newborn kitten.
Posted by: brohopcp Jan 17 2006, 10:37 PM
You'de need heavy test weight fishing wire to even try the garote.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Yeah, but in terms of sheer tensile strength, it's not nearly strong enough to choke anything larger than a newborn kitten. |
Unless that's what your character specializes in, I'd say it's pretty useless.
Posted by: warrior_allanon Jan 17 2006, 11:22 PM
use it as a trip wire on an old fashioned grenade pin. Would break on the pin's actual resistance, but using it to trigger a dead drop that pulled the pin would work
Posted by: stevebugge Jan 17 2006, 11:38 PM
Actually since you mention it on the tensile strength, it might be a good idea to actually test it ala mythbusters.
I Just need a hook scale, some floss, and someone to pull on it......
Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 18 2006, 12:40 AM
http://inventionandtechnology.com/xml/2006/3/it_2006_3_feat_2.xml
| QUOTE |
| Floss is used in hundreds of ways never dreamed of by its inventor. One article says, Dental floss is the new duct tape. ... Such a strong fiber was certain to find medical uses. A few years ago a spearfisher off the Bahamas was attacked by a shark that severely tore his right arm. He would have bled to death if not for his fiancée, a nurse, who pulled him into their boat, found some dental floss, and tied off his severed arteries. Less dramatically, it is common practice for anesthetists to secure an endotracheal tube during surgery by tying it to the patients teeth with floss. Floss comes to the rescue in many emergency situations. In 2002 Terry Watson, a Florida sailor, ran into a severe storm en route to Denmark. For more than two months he was missing at sea, but he managed to keep his vessel seaworthy with tape and dental floss, which he used to mend his torn sails. Survival kits for hunters often contain floss, which can be used to catch fish, make a net, trap small animals, and repair backpacks, tents, or clothing. |
-Frank
Posted by: BookWyrm Jan 18 2006, 01:03 AM
Duct tape is duct tape.
But from what I hear, dental floss can also make an improvised garrotte or trip wire.
Posted by: mmu1 Jan 18 2006, 01:04 AM
That sounds a lot more useful than I would have thought - but I'd still say a runner would probably be better off with fishing line.
Posted by: mmu1 Jan 18 2006, 01:06 AM
| QUOTE (BookWyrm) |
| Duct tape is duct tape. But from what I hear, dental floss can also make an improvised garrotte or trip wire. |
Only if you have something that'll serve as improvised handles and the time to set them up, or you don't mind slicing your fingers to the bone.
Posted by: nick012000 Jan 18 2006, 01:20 AM
| QUOTE (mmu1) | ||
Only if you have something that'll serve as improvised handles and the time to set them up, or you don't mind slicing your fingers to the bone. |
Or if you're wearing armored gloves, or have dermal plating.
Posted by: mmu1 Jan 18 2006, 03:22 AM
| QUOTE (nick012000 @ Jan 17 2006, 09:20 PM) | ||||
Or if you're wearing armored gloves, or have dermal plating. |
Perhaps, but if you're wearing armored gloves or have dermal plating even on the palms of your hands (Ouch... Must make personal hygiene an exciting adventure.) carrying floss to use as an improvised garrotte because it's inconspicuous isn't really going to be much help.
Posted by: nick012000 Jan 18 2006, 04:24 AM
Well, armored gloves aren't that conspicous, considering how common armored clothing is.
Posted by: brohopcp Jan 18 2006, 08:31 AM
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| Well, armored gloves aren't that conspicous, considering how common armored clothing is. |
Then why not have a built in garote wire in the glove... or your watch... or doc-wagon bracelet...
But putting the choke wire trick aside, floss seems relatively useful and I could see it as included in a survival or bio-kit. As for my games, I don't see many MacGyver type characters, which cuts down on many general uses for floss.
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 18 2006, 11:08 AM
could be handy for ghoul and shape shifter characters 
Posted by: ragingonanist Jan 18 2006, 11:16 AM
either my neck is particularly strong or osco brand dental floss cannot be used as a garrote. it is strong enough to cause quite a bit of pain in the fingers if not used with handles such as screwdrivers or toothbrush. yes there are a number of uses for thin ropes and while dental floss is strong enough for many of them. heavy gauge fishing line is probably a better bet for most of them.
Posted by: nezumi Jan 18 2006, 03:51 PM
Definitely should be included. I think too many shadowrunners neglect dental hygene. That sort of thing catches up with you in the end. Do you think Fastjack wears dentures? No way, he needs that 5 essence for much more important things.
Posted by: Wiz In Red Jan 18 2006, 05:35 PM
With dental floss and a 6pack of soybeer, you can put together a couple of communication devices, and if you're a lightweight, it might even seem like a good idea... 
Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 18 2006, 05:43 PM
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| Definitely should be included. I think too many shadowrunners neglect dental hygene. That sort of thing catches up with you in the end. Do you think Fastjack wears dentures? No way, he needs that 5 essence for much more important things. |
I've always envisioned fastjack and most deckers as these guys who are usually parapalegics, strapped to their chair, decking 24/7, on a respirator, and given food/fluids intravenously and such. Who cares about dentures, your food is gonna be baby food spoon fed to ya! Think of all the flaw bonuses you get!
Posted by: Ed_209a Jan 18 2006, 06:28 PM
| QUOTE (warrior_allanon @ Jan 17 2006, 06:22 PM) |
| use it as a trip wire on an old fashioned grenade pin. Would break on the pin's actual resistance, but using it to trigger a dead drop that pulled the pin would work |
Just use your Gerber/Leatherman pocket tool (you DO have one, right?) to straighten the split ends of the cotter pin. Dental floss is plenty strong then.
Posted by: Lagomorph Jan 18 2006, 06:52 PM
Dental floss (and container) would be a good used in finding monofilament wire traps, toss the box, hold onto the line, if the floss falls into 2 or more pieces, you've got a monofilament trap. Another way to do this is thread tied to a bouncy ball ( one of my characters had a bouncy ball for just such an occasion)
Posted by: mintcar Jan 18 2006, 07:47 PM
| QUOTE (Wiz In Red @ Jan 18 2006, 12:35 PM) |
| With dental floss and a 6pack of soybeer, you can put together a couple of communication devices, and if you're a lightweight, it might even seem like a good idea... |
Soybeer? Thatīs were I draw the line. Why wouldnīt they still grow normal grains for beer and bread? Hell, they can make pretty good beer out of corn even if the malt is scarce, but soy?
sorry for being off topic
Posted by: mmu1 Jan 18 2006, 07:57 PM
| QUOTE (mintcar @ Jan 18 2006, 03:47 PM) | ||
Soybeer? Thatīs were I draw the line. Why wouldnīt they still grow normal grains for beer and bread? Hell, they can make pretty good beer out of corn even if the malt is scarce, but soy? sorry for being off topic |
You know, that reminds me... Why is real food so expensive and scarce in the 6th world, anyway? Was there a massive disaster of some sort that contaminated most of the world's farmland and pastures, or is this another case of SR doing cyberpunk-for-cyberpunk's-sake, without a good explanation?
It's sort of hard to buy, with just about every developed country paying their farmers huge subsidies to produce only a small fraction of the potential output and keep the markets stable...
Posted by: Fix-it Jan 18 2006, 08:08 PM
no. it's more of a supply and demand thing.
krill and soy-based foods = soo much cheaper than real food, so demand fell off, so farmers went out of jobs, bought up by corporate interests, developed, or turned into a corp megafarm.
either way, it ain't owned by farmers anymore. and if was close enough to the city, it becomes part of the sprawl.
| QUOTE |
Soybeer? Thatīs were I draw the line. Why wouldnīt they still grow normal grains for beer and bread? Hell, they can make pretty good beer out of corn even if the malt is scarce, but soy? |
once again, soy is cheaper than regullar grains. (just guessing. but probably true)
Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 18 2006, 08:09 PM
Real meat is expensive because nation states are no longer subsidizing land for pastures and ranching. Also because hellcows make ranching more dangerous and costly. Fresh fruit and vegetables are expensive because people live in much closer proximity and while the speed delivery infrastructure is there to be had, it simply doesn't care enough about the little guy to deliver artichokes and peaches to arcology wageslaves and sprawl denizens in a timely manner.
Real preserved food is expensive for no good god damned reason except that th world is more dystopic and awful that way.
-Frank
Posted by: nezumi Jan 18 2006, 08:12 PM
| QUOTE (mintcar) |
| Soybeer? Thatīs were I draw the line. Why wouldnīt they still grow normal grains for beer and bread? Hell, they can make pretty good beer out of corn even if the malt is scarce, but soy? sorry for being off topic |
I don't know about soybeer, but soy vodka is actually pretty good.
Which, by the way, should definitely go on the 'gear everyone should have' list. It's probably cheaper by the gallon than mouthwash and just as effective.
Posted by: Siege Jan 18 2006, 08:28 PM
The dwarves might be on to something - fresh devilrat with ketchup sounds pretty good.
-Siege
Posted by: mintcar Jan 18 2006, 08:39 PM
Even in the mega farms they have to grow more than one crop right? I guess with state of the art farming crop rotation may not be required though.
I donīt see grain becoming more expensive than soy anyway. Today wheat is the cheapest crop to grow. And different grains can grow just about everywere on the planet too. You donīt see many soy bean fields in Sweden. Iīm not an expert, but I think the most likely scenario for Shadowrun agriculture is that the mega farms rotate corn, wheat and soy beans (for north america. Otherwise whatever grows best in the climate) on their fields.
<edit> Just read a few contradicting statements on the cost of growing soy. Seems it may be cheaper on account of making itīs own nitrogen, so that it doesnīt need as much fertilization or something.
Still, the price difference would not explain why they would make beer and bread out of soy instead of grain. I'm supposing people will still like it better the way it's supposed to be, the earth likes it better when crops are rotated, and the cost and hassle of growing these geneticly mutated crops should be rather indistinguishable. It's things like coffee, meat and cheese that's made of soy in Shadowrun.
Posted by: stevebugge Jan 18 2006, 09:26 PM
A large part of the cost of food in supermarkets isn't the food itself, but the cost of getting it to the market and operating the market. With the Balkanization of North America many of the Agricultural regions were spread among separate countries, with UCAS, CAS, and Sioux Nation gatting the vast bulk. Fuel prices have steadily risen, Tariffs and transit fees must be paid, and now all groceries must need additional security. All increase the cost of food. Addititonally Futures Speculation is probably an even more volatile and higher stakes market than it is today. Soy is a good crop because it's versatile, Rice, and Wheat would seem to be good bets too. As for Soy Beer, I've always assumed it was a cheap shot at mass produced American Lager.
Posted by: mmu1 Jan 18 2006, 09:29 PM
| QUOTE (Fix-it) |
| no. it's more of a supply and demand thing. krill and soy-based foods = soo much cheaper than real food, so demand fell off, so farmers went out of jobs, bought up by corporate interests, developed, or turned into a corp megafarm. either way, it ain't owned by farmers anymore. and if was close enough to the city, it becomes part of the sprawl. |
By that logic, the corps should not be making cars any more, except those meant for the ultra-rich, because bicycles are so much cheaper, and demand for cars has disappeared.
Which wouldn't be impossible, if the income of the average employed UCAS SIN-holder (since the SIN-less and unemployed don't affect supply and demand much) dropped to 3rd-world levels... but clearly, that's not the case. There's a lot more poverty than in the real world, relatively speaking, but most people that work for a living still are able to afford cars - even if they're crappy Jackrabbits - as well as personal electronics, fast food, the occasional chic outfit, minor cosmetic surgery, and so on.
The idea that a population still able to spend so much money on luxury goods will be willing to start eating slabs of soy with artificial flavors added from the tap, because it's cheaper than real food, is pretty absurd.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 18 2006, 09:35 PM
| QUOTE (mmu1) |
| The idea that a population still able to spend so much money on luxury goods will be willing to start eating slabs of soy with artificial flavors added from the tap, because it's cheaper than real food, is pretty absurd. |
Um, have you eaten at a McDonald's lately? That stuff is utterly vile, but if you shape it like food and flavor it up, people will eat it.
I think you're vastly overestimating the good taste of the average citizen. People will elect to eat cheap crap over more expensive, but better food.
That's not to say that real food will disappear entirely. SR doesn't imply that, either. Just that lower class will eat mostly processed junk, middle class will have a mix, and even the upper class will have a little soy now and then.
I find that idea entirely too horrifyingly realistic.
Posted by: Aku Jan 18 2006, 09:51 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) | ||
Um, have you eaten at a McDonald's lately? That stuff is utterly vile, but if you shape it like food and flavor it up, people will eat it. I think you're vastly overestimating the good taste of the average citizen. People will elect to eat cheap crap over more expensive, but better food. That's not to say that real food will disappear entirely. SR doesn't imply that, either. Just that lower class will eat mostly processed junk, middle class will have a mix, and even the upper class will have a little soy now and then. I find that idea entirely too horrifyingly realistic. |
utterly vile, yes, but still "real" food, (afaik, it's not soy, yet) I personally have a severe phobia to soy foods. I like my meat, and i CAN tell the difference betwen, say boca, and a real burger.
Posted by: stevebugge Jan 18 2006, 09:57 PM
| QUOTE (Aku) | ||||
utterly vile, yes, but still "real" food, (afaik, it's not soy, yet) I personally have a severe phobia to soy foods. I like my meat, and i CAN tell the difference betwen, say boca, and a real burger. |
If you want to know for sure http://www.mcdonalds.com/app_controller.nutrition.categories.ingredients.index.html
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 18 2006, 10:00 PM
| QUOTE (stevebugge) |
| A large part of the cost of food in supermarkets isn't the food itself, but the cost of getting it to the market and operating the market. With the Balkanization of North America many of the Agricultural regions were spread among separate countries, with UCAS, CAS, and Sioux Nation gatting the vast bulk. Fuel prices have steadily risen, Tariffs and transit fees must be paid, and now all groceries must need additional security. All increase the cost of food. Addititonally Futures Speculation is probably an even more volatile and higher stakes market than it is today. Soy is a good crop because it's versatile, Rice, and Wheat would seem to be good bets too. As for Soy Beer, I've always assumed it was a cheap shot at mass produced American Lager. |
So if you're looking to make a bit o nuyen on the up & up, Soy, & Grain Futures is the way to go?
As for cheap suds, I prefer the down to earth taste of Spud & Spud Lite.
It's the Tubers...and a Whole lot More
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 18 2006, 10:06 PM
The word soy appears about 150 times on that McDonald's menu page.
Posted by: mmu1 Jan 18 2006, 10:33 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jan 18 2006, 05:35 PM) |
| Um, have you eaten at a McDonald's lately? That stuff is utterly vile, but if you shape it like food and flavor it up, people will eat it. I think you're vastly overestimating the good taste of the average citizen. People will elect to eat cheap crap over more expensive, but better food. That's not to say that real food will disappear entirely. SR doesn't imply that, either. Just that lower class will eat mostly processed junk, middle class will have a mix, and even the upper class will have a little soy now and then. I find that idea entirely too horrifyingly realistic. |
Sure, McDonalds is a triumph of marketing over common sense. However, while it's crap, it's not cheap crap. It's actually relatively expensive, considering what you get for your buck, and very often bought by the people who have the least money to spend.
Which is why the idea that soy with artificial flavors beat out everything else by taking advantage of supply and demand and undercutting the competition by being so much cheaper is sort of ridiculous. If that was how things worked, the very poor in the US would eat rice and beans, but the reality of the matter is, even the homeless eat at McDonalds...
People will pay extra to get what they want (or think they want) - that's supply and demand, and the reason why people living in a consumer culture won't switch to krill wafers. (and neither will the corporations, because there's a lot less profit in krill wafers)
Posted by: stevebugge Jan 18 2006, 11:07 PM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) | ||
So if you're looking to make a bit o nuyen on the up & up, Soy, & Grain Futures is the way to go? As for cheap suds, I prefer the down to earth taste of Spud & Spud Lite. It's the Tubers...and a Whole lot More |
Or lose a lot of money. Commodity Futures are High Risk-High Reward.
Of course if you as a runner just did something that gets you some insider information..........(see Loose Alliances for more ideas)
I really should change my handle to the Chromed Broker or something
Posted by: Foreigner Jan 18 2006, 11:42 PM
I don't really know if this would work, but:
In the Chuck Norris film Hero and the Terror (1988), Simon Moon ("The Terror" of the title, played by 6 foot, 6 inch, 250-pound heavyweight-boxer-turned-actor Jack O'Halloran [who also played "Non" in Superman (1978) and Superman 2 (1980)]) escaped from prison by cutting the bars on his cell window.
He used a combination of dental floss, liquid hand soap, and crushed block rosin.
If you want to get nasty, you could use floss impregnated with a mixture of white phosphorus and thermite, as was done in the 1979 TV-movie The Billion-Dollar Threat--just don't expose it to air until you're ready to use it.
--Foreigner
Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jan 19 2006, 12:24 AM
| QUOTE (BookWyrm) |
| trip wire. |
better pull the pin a little just to make sure the floss don't break.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 19 2006, 01:18 AM
| QUOTE (stevebugge) |
| Or lose a lot of money. Commodity Futures are High Risk-High Reward. Of course if you as a runner just did something that gets you some insider information..........(see Loose Alliances for more ideas) I really should change my handle to the Chromed Broker or something |
That's why you have a very special contact named "Mr Biggles" (...not an Austin Powers reference. Think Eddie Murphy and Dan Akyroid)
Posted by: nt326 Jan 19 2006, 02:19 AM
Just a quick note on the garotte idea, if you double, or say triple the floss over, it doubles or triples the strength. That quickly makes it a viable and legal garotte. And, less painful on you fingers.
Posted by: Dog Jan 19 2006, 04:02 PM
I agree with the fishing line idea. Clearly a monofilament like dental floss can be useful in a pinch, but it seems to be a weak stand-in to be used when other, more appropriate materials are not available. I wouldn't bother to carry it when there are better options.
Hey, how about picture wire? Or those little core strands in parachute cord?
Posted by: stevebugge Jan 19 2006, 04:09 PM
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| I agree with the fishing line idea. Clearly a monofilament like dental floss can be useful in a pinch, but it seems to be a weak stand-in to be used when other, more appropriate materials are not available. I wouldn't bother to carry it when there are better options. Hey, how about picture wire? Or those little core strands in parachute cord? |
That's exactly what this project we're working on is about, the weak stand in's runners come up with on the fly, well at least that will be a big part of it.
Posted by: Fix-it Jan 19 2006, 05:14 PM
but dental floss is just silly... seriously. Piano wire or guitar strings, minimum.
Fishing line (12 lb test at least) would come in handy, but not for strangling someone.
Posted by: Ed_209a Jan 19 2006, 07:11 PM
Why one or the other?
I have seen dental floss in containers the size of 3-4 stacked quarters. Guitar strings come already packed in sleeves about 3x3" Easy to put both in a longcoat pocket and forget until needed.
50 feet of parachute cord would be good too.
If you are very careful you can even rappel with it. A bud of mine witnessed a ROTC instructor do it. Braiding 3 strands is a better idea though.
Posted by: tisoz Jan 19 2006, 07:53 PM
I recall a prison escape where they used braided floss as ropes to escape. The prison started tracking how many rolls of dental floss was being purchased.
Posted by: Fix-it Jan 19 2006, 07:56 PM
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| I recall a prison escape where they used braided floss as ropes to escape. The prison started tracking how many rolls of dental floss was being purchased. |
those were people with a LOT of time on thier hands though. this is for stuff in a pinch.
Posted by: mmu1 Jan 19 2006, 07:59 PM
| QUOTE (Ed_209a @ Jan 19 2006, 03:11 PM) |
| I have seen dental floss in containers the size of 3-4 stacked quarters. Guitar strings come already packed in sleeves about 3x3" Easy to put both in a longcoat pocket and forget until needed. |
I apologize in advance, but... If you carry guitar string packs with you, people who don't know better might wonder why you're carrying around a bunch of troll-sized condoms.
Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 19 2006, 08:03 PM
| QUOTE (mmu1) | ||
I apologize in advance, but... If you carry guitar string packs with you, people who don't know better might wonder why you're carrying around a bunch of troll-sized condoms. |
They'll wonder, but depending on the character, they'll try and put that thought out of their mind because it's too much info...
While dental floss is good, I do feel it's too weak compared to fishing line and guitar strings. But, dental floss can be overlooked easier by security because of how innocent it is. Why do I have this dental floss? For use after I eat! Course, if you're also packing a pistol and other hardware, the dental floss/guitar string/fishing line/monowire is the least of your worries if you're stopped by security...
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 19 2006, 08:06 PM
Maybe you should keep your fishing wire or guitar string in a dental floss box.
Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 19 2006, 08:10 PM
or in a condom packet...
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 19 2006, 08:17 PM
| QUOTE (PBTHHHHT) |
| or in a condom packet... |
Sure. A troll-sized condom packet. Why, you ask? Because that way no one will want to ask about it. Who'd want to hear the explanation!?
Posted by: BookWyrm Jan 19 2006, 08:20 PM
Reminds me of a scene from Alien Nation, where Sykes (played by James Kahn) & trying to explain what a condom is to his new Newcomer partner, George (Mandy Patinkin).....
Posted by: Tiralee Jan 27 2006, 10:43 AM
>The dwarves might be on to something - fresh devilrat with ketchup sounds pretty good.
>-Siege
Devilrat BBQ?
I, and all characters I run, with would prefer to bob for apples in a medical waste bin.
-Tir
Posted by: Maltaltin Jan 27 2006, 06:53 PM
You can always use it as a form of rope to tie small instroments together like oh say reparing technological devices where you don't want to carry any eletrical current then it would work. But so would duct tape if you got a small enough peice.
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