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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ How to calculate damage against spirits?

Posted by: The Jopp Jan 19 2006, 08:54 AM

How to calculate damage against spirits?

Ok, so spirits have immunity and the modified damage value of a mundane weapon must exceed twice the force of the spirit in order to do any damage. Ok, that much I get, but how do we calculate armour reduction for hardened armour?

Do we….

A: Deduct armour modification from the spirits armour BEFORE calculating if the DV exceeds the (now modified) armour of the spirit

Example: Spirit (F5) is shot with a predator IV with ex-explosive rounds and reduce its armour by -3 so that it now has an armour of 7. Predator IV does 7P base damage and shooter gains 3 successes bumping the damage up to 10P –armour, making a total damage of 3P (Resisted by spirit with Body+Modified Armour)

B: Get enough successes in the above example to bump up the damage to 11P and THEN reduce armour by -3 making a total of 4P resisted by Body+Modified Armour?

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jan 19 2006, 09:16 AM

You always apply mods first and compare then.

And no, Hardend Armor doe not substract DV, so the Spirit would resist 10P with reduced Armor and Body.

Posted by: The Jopp Jan 19 2006, 09:32 AM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

And no, Hardend Armor doe not substract DV, so the Spirit would resist 10P with reduced Armor and Body.

DOH! My bad.

Posted by: mintcar Jan 19 2006, 12:27 PM

AP is deducted before calculation, but to my dismay auto and burst fire damage mods are added after calculation. This means it´s rather hard to discribe your toxic air spirit as a cloud of foul smog. Judging from what happens to it when you shoot it, it's more like an armored statue of a cloud of smog...

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 19 2006, 01:06 PM

Naw, because the bullets go right through it.

It's a cloud of smog, not Superman.

Posted by: Kerberos Jan 19 2006, 01:15 PM

QUOTE (nick012000)

Naw, because the bullets go right through it.

It's a cloud of smog, not Superman.

Unless it's a really big caliber bullet fired from a high powered rifle in which case it does harm them, which really doesn't make much sense as I see it.

Posted by: RunnerPaul Jan 19 2006, 02:41 PM

QUOTE (nick012000)

Naw, because the bullets go right through it.

The hardened armor power (which is what immunity to normal weapons points you to) specifically uses the wording "bounces off". I could see if they'd said something like "is not harmed by" you could make a case for bullets passing straight through without causing damage, but for some reason they chose not to use that wording.

Posted by: fenikso Jan 20 2006, 09:33 AM

What about called shot? Apply before or after?

Posted by: mintcar Jan 20 2006, 11:02 AM

QUOTE (Kerberos)

QUOTE (nick012000 @ Jan 19 2006, 08:06 AM)

Naw, because the bullets go right through it.

It's a cloud of smog, not Superman.

Unless it's a really big caliber bullet fired from a high powered rifle in which case it does harm them, which really doesn't make much sense as I see it.

That´s why I don´t like that auto-fire damage does not count towards armor. In all other cases it sort of makes sense. But towards spirits of this nature I could see a hail of bullets sort of scattering the form of the spirit.

Do you guys think it would be ballanced to not to count AP against cloud form spirits, but count firing mode against armor for them? And leave solid form spirits as they are? Alternetively, if you want to make spirits less powerful, count both AP and firing mode against all spirits?

Posted by: hobgoblin Jan 20 2006, 02:44 PM

if anything, those spirits are magical energys taken physical form.
therefor it may well be that when a bullet strike a area of air given "life" the air may harden (local area of high speed wind anyone?) that deflect or in any case makes the bullet bounce off.

hell, if one wants to be anal one can ask how anything can harm a gas or energy based spirit (air and fire), or maybe even a liquid one. i say its a matter of intent. but as its done with a ranged weapon, your not putting your whole "soul" behind it and therefor the spirit gets a easyer time to resist

in the end its metaphysics. i would think even in-game magicans debate why a gun can harm a cloud of gass. and if the spirits know, the are not talking. and i can understand them. why tell anyone how they can become more effective at hurting you?

and if you go down the route of bullet pass-thru, you risk getting into the mess of the bullets hitting stuff on the other side. bullets do not magicaly dissapear if they dont hit a target (this is why bringing a high powerd rifle to a downtown firefight may well be a bad idea if your a member of the police).

Posted by: mintcar Jan 20 2006, 10:50 PM

My problem is just with the rules contradicting the way I want to discribe the action. I´m not very anal over this kind of thing (my sig should give a clue about that). The reason I ask is because some who are more anal always point out the systematical flaws in my house-rule suggestions. That way I can make more informed adaptions of the rules in game later on.