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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ when mages get board

Posted by: Straight Razor Jan 20 2006, 02:56 AM

ok... is there any thing stoping a mage with a telescope from writing there name on the moon with shape earth spell, or for that matter Zotting satellites down.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 20 2006, 03:09 AM

It depends on how you interperate background count rules. If you decide that there is no penality for casting into a BC from outside then absolutly nothing.
If you decide that there is a penality for casting into a BC from outside then the manawarp in space will pose a problem.

This problem is easily overcome with filtering, centering, and sacrificing.

Posted by: Toptomcat Jan 20 2006, 03:17 AM

Sounds like an MIT&T fraternity prank.

Posted by: emo samurai Jan 20 2006, 03:18 AM

What do mages need to have in order to cast long-distance? Can they just use telescopic contact lenses that aren't digital read-out?

Posted by: Ancient History Jan 20 2006, 03:20 AM

It would have to be a really good telescope, because certain distance modifiers apply. Then you have to deal with the mana warp. Finally, you have to consider area: even Harlequin wouldn't be able to actually see his name if he wrote it on the moon (well, unless he used the spell over and over and over again).

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 20 2006, 03:47 AM

Area does pose a problem with shape earth, but not for some other spells. Imagine casting Improved Invisibility on it, for example.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 20 2006, 04:23 AM

QUOTE (Toptomcat)

Sounds like an MIT&T fraternity prank.

Nah, U of Chicago MT&P school

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 20 2006, 04:40 AM

Nah. Sounds like a single student prank.

Writing "MIT&T" in the moon would be a frat prank.

And zotting down satelites sounds like a good idea to me. They'll have a weee bit of a problem figuring out just WHAT is going on.

Posted by: John Campbell Jan 20 2006, 04:42 AM

The spell's Shape Earth, not Shape Luna.

Posted by: Soylent Plaid Jan 20 2006, 05:23 AM

I'd allow it. TN 1000. Special drain for casting through the mana warp: (+20)DN. Feel free to give it a shot.

Posted by: Liper Jan 20 2006, 05:28 AM

just get a great ghost dance done for it...

who cares if some freshman die, it's part of the initiation! hehe.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 20 2006, 07:11 AM

Ares is actually workin go that (or close enough). Project:Artemis, on oen of their space stations, is about casting spells from space to Earth, and Earth to space. Really, once they get the hang of it, it's only a matter of time until they start renting out Billboard space on the moon. Imagine looking out your window at night to see NERPS!!!! instead of the man on the moon. Now that's marketing exposure!

Posted by: Calvin Hobbes Jan 20 2006, 08:20 AM

Does Magic even operate in space? I thought mages died if they accessed the astral out of the atmosphere.

Posted by: Bitten Twice Jan 20 2006, 08:39 AM

They usually do. But this time it is just the magic accessing the space.
Magic entering a dead/warped space. Now what would happen to that magic?

I can't help but thinking that the magic is either moving through nothing and hence has nothing to react on (bear with me, my mind is fuzzy from coffee and not enough sleep) OR moves through warped magic thick as molasses with a serious magical backfire for the magician.

I think it is explained in some of the books I've got. but I am too fuzzybrained at the mo.
Help?

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 20 2006, 08:47 AM

QUOTE (Calvin Hobbes)

Does Magic even operate in space? I thought mages died if they accessed the astral out of the atmosphere.

well, the books say that mages astrally percieving can die or go insane. Space is a Lv 10 Mana Warp, and any astral actions result in 16D damage each round for deep space. So take tons of damage and reduce force of spells by 10, But yes, it is possible to do magic in space technically. Just very very difficlt and dangerous. Filtering metamagic ceratinly helps.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 20 2006, 08:49 AM

Outer space has a rating 10 background count most probably due to extreme sterility and cosmic radiation. Space stations have background counts around 8 or 9.
Background counts that extreme will cause quite a bit of damage to any magician who tries to cast spells or percieve astral. Don't even think about projecting. Incidently, it doesn't impeed adept powers in any way (there is an exception with attribute boost which causes drain).

Background count can be dealt with by using filtering. Also, sacrificing and centering can offset the extreme drain. By some reports there are spirits which live in the warped astral plane of outer space. The person who made these reports tore his own eyes out. I don't know if that makes him more credible or less credible.

Either way, I do believe that a toxic shaman could be aspected towards outer space with the right conditioning and would be able to function in space just as well as any other would function on Earth.

Posted by: toturi Jan 20 2006, 11:33 AM

Magician Adept Virtuso-es, boost his own Magic Rating by 10, Centers to offset drain and proceeds to write his name on the moon. By canon TNs, it isn't that hard.

Posted by: noname_hero Jan 20 2006, 03:09 PM

That's because the rules are not written with the purpose of preventing every game-breaking idea the players might come up with, and leave it to individual GMs.

Hey, why target the Moon? Why not target the *Sun* with a Powerbolt? It is a single target, it is a natural object (Object Resistance 3)... I can hit it with a 2D Powerbolt, and if I score *one* success it will be destroyed!

See what I mean?

Posted by: toturi Jan 20 2006, 03:29 PM

Of course, but how many Body does it have?

Posted by: stevebugge Jan 20 2006, 03:40 PM

QUOTE (toturi)

Of course, but how many Body does it have?

If object body is a function of mass (like vehicle body is) one hell of a lot.

Posted by: noname_hero Jan 20 2006, 04:08 PM

QUOTE (stevebugge)

QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 20 2006, 07:29 AM)

Of course, but how many Body does it have?

If object body is a function of mass (like vehicle body is) one hell of a lot.

It has (going by the rules) no Body, because it is neither living nor a vehicle. It is (according to the rules) a single non-living target, one not of vehicularial kind whatsoever, meaning the TN to hit it is equal to its Object Resistance (which is 3), the minimum required Force to affect it is 2, and it is a valid target for the 2D Powerbolt in question...

Oh... The actual TN might be a little higher, because of the glare modifier, but that's about it...

Posted by: Apathy Jan 20 2006, 06:49 PM

QUOTE (noname_hero)

Actually, I don't believe the living/non-living nature of the sun is ever addressed in canon. One could make an arguement that the earth should be treated as a living body, since it has its own aura. Who's to say that the sun doesn't have an aura as well?

Also, I'd like to see a quote from the rules indicating that vehicles are the only non-living objects that have body ratings. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Posted by: stevebugge Jan 20 2006, 07:09 PM

QUOTE (Apathy)

QUOTE (noname_hero @ Jan 20 2006, 11:08 AM)

Actually it may well be indestructible because the Sun is a totem in one of the magic sourcebooks (Either Awakenings 2057 or MITS)

Posted by: mfb Jan 20 2006, 07:33 PM

what's a powerbolt going to do to the sun, anyway? make it explode?

Posted by: JRDobbs Jan 20 2006, 07:53 PM

Doesn't shape earth have a volume restriction? If so, it may take prohibitively long to shape out a "tag" visible from Earth.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jan 20 2006, 08:56 PM

QUOTE (Straight Razor)

ok... is there any thing stoping a mage with a telescope from writing there name on the moon with shape earth spell,

is this mages name Chair Face by any chance? Like when in the hell or why in the hell would some one do this? it must be a comedy based game.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 21 2006, 06:28 AM

... or good marketing

ARES SPACE

Posted by: mfb Jan 21 2006, 06:32 AM

QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)

Like when in the hell or why in the hell would some one do this?

right, because real people don't use every conceivable means to leave their mark on any surface left unattended for more than five minutes. nobody writes dirty ditties on bathroom walls, nobody scribes "x loves y" on desks in high school, nobody sprays graffiti all over every city in the world. writing your name on something for the hell of it? that's just preposterous!

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 21 2006, 06:51 AM

and then taking in to account Damien Knights ego....

Knight Errant for example

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jan 21 2006, 01:58 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)

Like when in the hell or why in the hell would some one do this?

Point made, but it's the Moon for christ sake.

Posted by: Aku Jan 21 2006, 02:28 PM

QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)

QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 21 2006, 06:32 AM)

QUOTE (Mr.Platinum)

Like when in the hell or why in the hell would some one do this?

Point made, but it's the Moon for christ sake.

hehe wouldnt it suck to have your number etched into the moon? Every lonle y SOB sees it at night "for a good time call...." hehe

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 21 2006, 03:21 PM

That reminds me of the secret moon landing tapes which were never released to the public.

Neil Armstrong: One small step for man, one giant leap for -Harlequin?! Who the fuck is Harlequin?! Huston, you won't believe this "Harlequin wuz here" is clearly written on the lunar surface not three feet in front of me.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jan 21 2006, 04:08 PM

Ha you guys are as funny as a bunch of tards in a steel cage match fighting for a twinkie.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 21 2006, 06:57 PM

Huston, I think the Moon men are trying to communicate with us.

Not five minutes ago the word 'Harlequin' was crossed out and replaced with 'Ehran'. Less than one minute ago 'wuz here' was replaced with 'sucks big fat donkey turds'

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jan 21 2006, 08:39 PM

IIRC, Saeder Krupp has some facilities on the moon. Chances are, there's a big dragon profile logo in the sea of tranquility.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 22 2006, 05:21 AM

Novatech/Neonet, Ares, and S-K all have 'facilities' there, mostly for mining.

Thats' one thing I've been wondering about: why mine the moon. Now obviously it's not very cost effective to launch raw ore back dirt side and use it, nor is it very efficient to laungh metal up, so what I'd assume they're doing is using to to build stations in orbit, never having touched earth air.

My question is, if they're doing that, how are they smelting it? Running a smelter is going to use up a TON of oxygen, which is of course premium in space.

Now, in Rigger 2, it does mention in one of the vehicles stats (one of the subs I think) that it includes an 'oxygen generator'. The closest I could find was http://www.appliedozone.com/oxygen_generator.html, which doesn't exactly make oxygen as much as clean and condense what is there. That would certainly have it's uses in space, but not solve the problem.

You could also go the spell jammer way, as in growing plants in space to produce oxygen, but that also takes 1) water, and 2) room. Both are the next hardest things to get in space next to oxygen. It takes (at the lowest cost I've seen) about 1 billion + per year (now ' a days) to run a space station, so adding more room for plants is going to be difficult. So how do they do it? Is true oxygen creation possible in SR? This would seem difficult at best but has anyone seen any real references?How do theye get enough oxygen to smelt the raw metals in space? lasers?

Posted by: Slump Jan 22 2006, 05:32 AM

Depending on the nature of lunar rock, it's quite possible for them to get all the oxygen they need from the rocks. And doesn't smelting just require heat? Granted, the easiest way to get heat is to burn something, but that's not the only way. Heating something (even alot of something) doesn't need any oxygen at all.

And oxygen generation onboard underwater vehicles and facilities is quite easy -- just run some electricity through water and you get hydrogen and oxygen gas back. Toss out they hydrogren, and keep the oxygen.

Posted by: xizor Jan 22 2006, 05:57 AM

i think the easiest way to create a furnace on the moon would be to have nature do the work for you. there is a LOT of energy in sunlight, particularly when it has not gone through an antmosphere.

so,
1 set up a large parabolic mirror (10+ meters in diameter.)
2 put the piece of rock or metal at the focal point.
3 wait the 2 or 3 minutes it would take to turn the rock moltant.
4 continue with the other manufacturing processes.

Note, this does have some problems (like it only working during the day, near constant adjustments of the mirror to maximise the sunlight gathered.)

but its benefits out weigh the costs ( it uses minimal power, and no real chemical resources, it is simple, it can be made out of foil {there isn't an atmosphere on the moon} and its cheap.)

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 22 2006, 06:10 AM

thanks Slump, that answers one question at least.

Xizor, I was thinking something more along the lines of solar collectors to charge up lasers to cut away and cook off the dross. Seems faster, more efficient, and a larger scale.

Thanks to both for helping get a clearer picture.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 22 2006, 06:12 AM

Smelting isn't just about melting. Quite a bit more work goes into it, depending on the type of ore. Consider http://www.world-aluminium.org/production/smelting/.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 22 2006, 06:15 AM

QUOTE

An electric current is passed through the electrolyte at low voltage, but very high current, typically 150,000 amperes

DAMN! That;s one nasty bubble bath!

I think Ill be running a team through an aluminium smelting plant now.

Mr. J "By the way, avoid the pots. They run 150,000 amps through them."

Runners: "......

......."

Mr J. "

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 22 2006, 07:58 AM

Well, if they decide to go for a swim in the pots I'd think that the molten cryolite would kill them long before the current does.

Considering how expensive aluminium is to produce, I'd think that a spirit whose Wealth power allowed it to create aluminium would be in high demand. Magically creating aluminium would significantly reduce the overhead, both in mining alumina and in smelting it. At the same time, alumina is so plentiful that dumping created aluminium on the market won't cause a huge price drop.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 22 2006, 08:42 AM

you forget though that any thing created by the wealth power bears the spirits signature, and could be used for ritual magic. I can't think that there'd be a lot of spirits out there willing to mass-produce links to it's self.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 22 2006, 08:56 AM

That's why it would probably be bound. It would be fun to have such a spirit hire some runners to kill his master and offer to pay them their weights in the 'precious' metals he produces.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 22 2006, 09:20 AM

hehe, that would make a great double corss run too! The spirit hires them, because it's been sworn to not attack it's master, but never anything against hiring someone else to do it. But the only thing it can pay with is it's wealth power. So he pays the runners in that. Of course, after the run, and the target eliminated, it doesn't want to be bound again. The runners already have a wealth link to it, so it tried to off them too!

Posted by: Chibu Jan 22 2006, 05:00 PM

Well, going back the the TOPIC...

Uhm, I find that the easiest way to deal with people is to use a screen and roll your dice, and don't tell them. If they say you're wrong, tell them "No, I am not wrong. I cannot be wrong. For I am the almighty GM. I have power over the Great Dragons, the Immortal Elves. I can create and destroy at my whim. Now roll the fragging dice, TN 12, if you fail, you get shot."

Or something like that anyway....

and getting to the other stuff talked about...

Where would I find rules for filtering?

Posted by: nick012000 Jan 23 2006, 02:34 AM

SOTA63.

Posted by: warrior_allanon Jan 23 2006, 04:09 AM

alright, heres an example of a bored mage, http://members.aol.com/MrZeebub/Elemtl.html but its the same concepts

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 23 2006, 05:16 AM

QUOTE (warrior_allanon)

alright, heres an example of a bored mage, http://members.aol.com/MrZeebub/Elemtl.html but its the same concepts

Wah-hah-hah-hah-haaaah!

More. I must read more. And, by the way, does anyone want to stat up a Peanut Butter Elemental?

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jan 23 2006, 09:44 AM

SR3 Peanut Butter Elemental:
B: F+3 Q: F-2 (x2) S: F+2 C: F I: F W: F E: F(A) R: F-1
Init: F+9+1D6
Attacks: F+2 S Stun, +1 Reach
Powers: Engulf, Materialization, Movement
Weaknesses: Vulnerability (I'm not sure)

It's mostly an average of earth and water, so the stats could also work for any other similar gooey element.

Posted by: Quix Jan 26 2006, 05:27 AM

Peanutbutter Elemental
Vulnerability: Bread (especially with sliced bannana or jelly), my hungry 2 year old son

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 26 2006, 06:43 AM

QUOTE (Chibu)

Uhm, I find that the easiest way to deal with people is to use a screen and roll your dice, and don't tell them. If they say you're wrong, tell them "No, I am not wrong. I cannot be wrong. For I am the almighty GM. I have power over the Great Dragons, the Immortal Elves. I can create and destroy at my whim. Now roll the fragging dice, TN 12, if you fail, you get shot."

shame on you

Posted by: Maltaltin Jan 27 2006, 07:37 PM

Ok i'm sorry but being a bored mage I would not be willing to go into space I might alter a few streets and such but writing my name in the moon is pushing it espesically if they can trace it. I mean think about the fine they could drop on you for doing something like that.