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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Cybereyes and death
Posted by: Space Ghost Jan 26 2006, 06:55 AM
Anyone else think it's time to get paranoid? Anyone you meet might have cybereyes. Since all cybereyes come with a recording unit and theoretically have all the memory they could ever need, what are the odds that you're going to get caught on tape? So much for the Blandness quality.
What i'm looking for is this:
1. Is there any reason your eyes would stop recording when you die? What powers them, and how long after death would the juice run out?
2. What's the legality of post-mortem video as evidence?
i can just imagine that cutting out people's cybereyes will be the new necessity when getting rid of the evidence. It's not enough to bury them, since the eyes won't decompose with the rest of the corpse. You'd probably be able to hack them, at least.
Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 26 2006, 07:01 AM
well, since they're supposed to run oof of bio-electricity, they should cut off jsut after barin death (since there's little reason to have back up power. who cares if you're eyes don't work if you're brain dead). As far as legality, should be admissable. And should be pretty easy to capture your killers image on it. Time to go back to ski masks boys and trolls (if you hadn't already), or up grade to nano paste.
Posted by: Cold-Dragon Jan 26 2006, 07:21 AM
legally speaking, the eyes are very useful if your dead John or Jane happened to see the person, but that doesn't mean much in catching them, at best you have an idea of what they looked like at the time they shot the person. Cosmetic modifications are easy peasy in this time frame, camera film is limited use in that respect.
you should be more worried when they start framing you that way - kill them, then modify the data by hacking the eyes.
Posted by: Liper Jan 26 2006, 11:57 AM
not everyone runs with cyber eyes, but yeah take note =p
Posted by: MrMiracle Jan 26 2006, 02:58 PM
And other players looked at me funny when I told them my character wore a mask on runs. For the love of Zeus folks, there's cameras everywhere!
Posted by: BlackHat Jan 26 2006, 03:06 PM
I had the same thought about a simrig, a while back... there was some movie... with Robin WIlliams in it... Iforget the name, but they basically had a bioware simrig installed in people, that recorded their whole lives (SR4 has infinate storage space, ne?) and after they died, it was his job to go in and turn the recording into a sort of montage of their life for their funeral... but it also let people see how the person died, since it recorded everything they sensed.
Posted by: hobgoblin Jan 26 2006, 03:14 PM
hmm, sounds like a somewhat interesting movie, if only for the commentary about future social interactions and the use of technology in strange new ways...
Posted by: kigmatzomat Jan 26 2006, 05:03 PM
| QUOTE (MrMiracle) |
| And other players looked at me funny when I told them my character wore a mask on runs. For the love of Zeus folks, there's cameras everywhere! |
Good grief, I had an entire wardrobe of armored gear that I cycled out between runs. Multiple helmet designs that were repainted/reskinned, different styles of clothing, and I kept the party mage in beer in return for fashioning & sterilizing my clothes before/after each run. I even cycled out which weapons I carried to try and keep the dataminers from linking my runs together. The others weren't quite so fastidious but the mage saw the value in keeping their outfits just as sterilized & fashionable as possible so we as a group didn't get tagged.
Posted by: evil1i Jan 27 2006, 03:21 AM
| QUOTE (BlackHat) |
| .. there was some movie... with Robin WIlliams in it... Iforget the name, but they basically had a bioware simrig installed in people, that recorded their whole lives (SR4 has infinate storage space, ne?) and after they died, it was his job to go in and turn the recording into a sort of montage of their life for their funeral... |
The Final Cut
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jan 27 2006, 03:56 AM
| QUOTE (MrMiracle) |
| And other players looked at me funny when I told them my character wore a mask on runs. For the love of Zeus folks, there's cameras everywhere! |
Yes, but if there are cameras everywhere, they have you on tape putting on the mask.
The first thing to remember is that if you have no SIN, they have no record of you. So they can get your face on camera, but it won't give them your home address, favorite soap, or any of that info that a face recognition scan would do on a SINner. This is good news. The bad news is that this doesn't prevent them from starting their own file and linking everything they can find about you to it. It will also help them recognize you later. Also, your Fake SINS will have your bio-metrics attached as well. (They wouldn't work otherwise.) So your Fake SINs can be compromised as well. And if you use the same biometric data on any other SIN, it will be immediately compromised.
So lets assume that a facial and body recognition program can be run after the fact on any video feed. Sorry, Friend, but that mask isn't going to cut it. It'll fool the low rating scanners, but the serious stuff will be able to tell you from your body movement, your bone structure, and the way the mask hugs your face. The disguise skill just became your best friend. With that skill, you can change your appearance so that you can fool the scanners. Height extensions, shoulder pads, cheek inserts, hair lengtheners, and all manner of Nano-junk can assist you, and the skill also teaches you how to learn to move like a different person, talk like a different person, and mimic those "Tells" that everyone has. In game terms, A scanner would have to get at least as many successes as you got on a disguise check in order to tell you as You.
And if they do get your data, there is always plastic surgery, finger print re-writing, DNA alteration, and all the other fun stuff that has only gotten more affordable since 2050.
Posted by: Adarael Jan 27 2006, 07:36 PM
| QUOTE (evil1i) | ||
The Final Cut |
This movie was actually a remake of a Japanese movie called "After Life" (or 'Wonderful Life' in Japan).
Arata (who played Smile, in Ping Pong, if you've seen that) plays the lead, and does a damn fine job.
Posted by: runefire32 Jan 27 2006, 07:56 PM
I have no idea why on earth this hasn't been stated yet...
Not every person is going to be recording all of the time. That gaurd you drop down on and shoot in the face, isn't nessicarily going to spend his free action on turning on his eyecamera...more than likely he's going to spend his free action screaming at the top of his lungs/calling for backup and soiling himself.
I know as a person in 2070 i wouldn't record all the time...
Posted by: kigmatzomat Jan 27 2006, 10:23 PM
Joe Bob wage slave who gets shot in the face as soon as he steps in the subway won't be using his optic's recording functions all the time.
Joe Bob the security guard is going to turn on the recorders as soon as he goes on shift, probably as company policy.
Though the fact is that cybereyes should be far less common these days for typical slobs. Why spend a few thousand plus down time for surgery on a set of cybereyes when you can spend a few hundred and get goggles or contact lenses? If you want recording functionality, get a microsensor module implanted in his helmet, armor or ID badge.
Posted by: Cold-Dragon Jan 27 2006, 10:55 PM
Or else make sure you work around a camera if not those.
Part of recording isn't 'recording all the time' as it is recording when it'd be beneficial. Recording on the job means if someone tries to blame you for something can be disproved with some footage, you got your own ass saved.
And in some cases, when you're looking around, you can look back later to re-examine things you might want to re-examine, like where you left your keys.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jan 28 2006, 05:41 AM
Hell, I know that If I had cybereyes, I'd be recordign all the fricken time. because you never know when something you'll want to see later will pop up in front of you. Shit, when I lived in the dorms, I was always seeing stuff I'd like to see later in the privacy of my room.
At the end of the day I'd just data-dump the whole thing to commlink, and would use my handy agent and edit programs to search through it, delete the boring stuff, and keep the rest all on file in case. you never really know when what you see will be useful.
Posted by: Squinky Jan 28 2006, 05:55 AM
I would think a person could rig up there eye camera's to start up automatically if given info from a biomonitor (if the person takes any damage) in their armor, or even when a smartlink connection is made....
Posted by: Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate Jan 28 2006, 07:07 AM
I have the feeling that this thread is going to result in a lot of NPC murder victims being found with bloody eye sockets and missing datajacks...
Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jan 28 2006, 07:14 AM
| QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate) |
| I have the feeling that this thread is going to result in a lot of NPC murder victims being found with bloody eye sockets and missing datajacks... |
that is gruesome... though, pc's have been known to hack off cyberlimbs and taking body parts for the organleggers and cyberdocs... or for ghoulfeed...
Still, I can see a running commentary of the news ingame about a rash of killings where the cybereyes and datajacks are taken and authorities are trying to figure out a profile to the killers, or something silly like that.
Posted by: jago668 Jan 30 2006, 11:44 AM
Always makes me wonder about some people. You figure every character on the run would be using everything possible to keep from being identified. I always have my characters taking thermal damping in their armor, and wearing masks/helmets. Also you would be amazed at how friendly your teams mage gets with those physical mask spells if you buy the sustaining focus for them. As mentioned previously, having gear sanitized, along with multiple sets of gear is another good idea. For myself if I can I try to take as little actual electronics along as possible, for example my current phys ad only uses a micro-transceiver on the runs. Leave those commlinks at home boys and girls if you don't need them, or at least in the getaway vehicle.
Posted by: Azralon Jan 30 2006, 09:54 PM
Me, I'd record every damn thing that I see or hear by default and have a "pause" button that I'd consciously hit when needed. Then an Analyze+Browse agent could cross-reference anything I needed to remember in better detail. Maybe tie that into Virtual Person for my little own secretary-in-a-box.
True, I'd be making every hostile hacker's job a ton easier, but it'd sure make conversations with my lady-love go a whole lot smoother. A man's gotta have his priorities.
Me: "I thought you said you weren't going shopping this weekend."
Her: "What? No, why would I say that when there's an awesome one-day sale going on?"
Me: "Let's go to the replay, shall we?"
Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Jan 30 2006, 10:01 PM
| QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate) |
| I have the feeling that this thread is going to result in a lot of NPC murder victims being found with bloody eye sockets and missing datajacks... |
And then they get run down from the recording, just like in real life when someone steals the camera from a 7-11...
Stealing the camera in no way guarantees that you've taken the recording medium.
Posted by: Azralon Jan 30 2006, 10:07 PM
| QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable) |
| Stealing the camera in no way guarantees that you've taken the recording medium. |
True, true.
I still need to subject my group to the http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=10954&st=25 mission sometime.
Posted by: Sigfried McWild Jan 30 2006, 10:08 PM
Given that the recording is integral to cybereyes, it would seem the likely place. I agree that total destruction of the head, possibly with a sledge hammer would be better and even that is no guarantee.
But hey destroying cybereyes and ears takes minimal effort and might be enough so why not? 
Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Jan 30 2006, 10:15 PM
The recording ability is integral to cybereyes...the actual recording, however, falls into that lovely "infinite storage space" that gets so many people worked up. (Is the recording in the cybereyes? clothing? commlink? datachip in a finger compartment? corp server? ad nauseum)
So overall, you're better off with a munchkiny hacker who can go after the data directly, rather than assuming the end user effectively left the clock blinking 12:00.
Posted by: Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate Jan 30 2006, 10:23 PM
| QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable) |
| The recording ability is integral to cybereyes...the actual recording, however, falls into that lovely "infinite storage space" that gets so many people worked up. (Is the recording in the cybereyes? clothing? commlink? datachip in a finger compartment? corp server? ad nauseum) So overall, you're better off with a munchkiny hacker who can go after the data directly, rather than assuming the end user effectively left the clock blinking 12:00. |
Well, stealing the datajack/eyes to make sure that wherever the data got stored didn't remain.
So it's quite possible that the body would be somewhat, er, cratered.
Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Jan 30 2006, 10:35 PM
I think maybe you're missing my point - the data doesn't have to remain local, let alone in the device that did the recording.
It could even be mirrored to half a dozen different places (which, if you think about it, would probably be required for most security personnel.)
Overall, the odds of successfully removing the data after-the-fact (sans hacker) are pretty close to zero.
Any runner going around ripping out eyes is going to get a reputation of being unprofessional very quickly.
Posted by: Brahm Jan 30 2006, 10:43 PM
With the appropriate directional jammer running that picture is going no where outside his body. Unless they bought an ECCM program.
So a much better plan is to not be reconizable anyway. That way you don't actually have to kill the poor sap, just knock him out or intimidate him.
Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Jan 30 2006, 10:49 PM
bingo
Posted by: runefire32 Jan 31 2006, 02:18 PM
I'll chime in again...
Yeah the security guard is supposed to turn them on for his shift, but he's probably likely to turn them off when he's doing something he might not be supposed to be doing...or when he's taking a leak...or on break.
Secondly...who needs to cut out the cybereyes (which aren't guarenteed to have the data) when you have a hacker hrm?
Posted by: Cray74 Jan 31 2006, 04:33 PM
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| well, since they're supposed to run oof of bio-electricity, they should cut off jsut after barin death (since there's little reason to have back up power. who cares if you're eyes don't work if you're brain dead). |
Damn, that bioelectricity crap made it into SR4?
The human body doesn't generate enough electricity to power an LED. How could it power cyberware with that electricity?
| QUOTE |
| I know as a person in 2070 i wouldn't record all the time... |
Yeah, turning it off in a bathroom would be all but required. Can you imagine one of your last moments (reviewed in court) being something like looking at the extent of "blow through" on your finger when you were wiping?
"Ewww...damned cheap corp, only buys single-ply butt wipes...look at that, it got under the nail! Hey! Occupied! This stall is occupied!"
[Blam Blam Blam]
"Ack...shot...someone shot me...with my pants around my ankles and (cough cough) blow through on my finger..."
Posted by: kigmatzomat Jan 31 2006, 09:14 PM
| QUOTE (Cray74) | ||
Damn, that bioelectricity crap made it into SR4? |
I dunno about bioelectricity, that sounds like those blood-spun turbines. Exactly how many watts of power does the human heart put out? And what happens when you get a cyber-heart? Perpetual Motion?
We assumed they ran on blood-based fuel cells. I've read articles about fuel cells that run on glucose IRL. Of course, they currently spit out totally puny amounts of power but hey, it's the future. An alternative viable for any cyber exposed to the open air is a peltier generator that turns a percentage of waste heat leaving the body into electricity.
Posted by: Azralon Jan 31 2006, 09:20 PM
We have spoken of bioelectricity http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11540. I even got to say "woot" in the process.
Posted by: Brahm Jan 31 2006, 09:45 PM
| QUOTE (Cray74 @ Jan 31 2006, 11:33 AM) | ||
Damn, that bioelectricity crap made it into SR4? The human body doesn't generate enough electricity to power an LED. How could it power cyberware with that electricity? |
Yes, it snuck in with another wacky idea. The Nanopaste Disguise is described as being powered by it. Nanopaste Disguise is sort of like a T2000 Terminator style body mask in a tube.
Glucose powered cells that used are change a battery I could sort of see running cyberware. But you would have to start eating a lot more Cocoa Puffs to power some of the more energetic implants.
Posted by: Shrike30 Jan 31 2006, 11:04 PM
One of the reasons that the smartlinked-out-of-the-box Predator was always a favorite in SR3 (although street index going away has reduced some of this)... one of the cheapest replacement smartguns on the market for after you disassembled the old one and tossed the parts out the window along 10 miles of highway, post-hit. Not a bad habit to get into, IMO.
Makes people who use custom guns cry, though.
Posted by: Serbitar Feb 1 2006, 12:00 AM
nobody needs cybereys. You can have small sensor tags recording everything you do 24/7
Posted by: Cray74 Feb 1 2006, 01:07 AM
| QUOTE (kigmatzomat) |
| I dunno about bioelectricity, that sounds like those blood-spun turbines. Exactly how many watts of power does the human heart put out? And what happens when you get a cyber-heart? Perpetual Motion? |
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/IradaMuslumova.shtml
Estimates for human heart power output are in the range of 1 to 5W, with most clustering a little under 2 Watts.
The amount of power in a given artery for a turbine to tap will be a fraction of that, and probably very needed by the circulatory system.
Y'know, Battletech actually has a set of volunteer factcheckers who check for continuity and science issues for new publications. Does Shadowrun do anything similar?
I just spotted another SR4 scientific issue with the thermite bar (pg327 SR4) - "a rod of thermite and oxygen mounted on a handle..." A thermite reaction is, by definition, a reaction between two solids, one containing oxygen (e.g., iron oxide) and another, more active metal (e.g., aluminum). The two materials together are called "thermite." That's similar to the idea in Target: Wastelands that guns need oxygen to work in space (gunpowder is an oxygenated compound - it doesn't need external air; in fact, it can't use external air.)
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