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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Canon?
Posted by: Nindaru Oct 3 2003, 07:40 PM
I see it referred to around here alot. I assume everyone is talking about the game world and rules.
So, to violate canon would mean going against the pre-set rules from the FASA/WhizKids published materials, right? e.g. Deciding that Elves do not exist in my campaign world or introducing Robotech into SR.
can·on - An established principle: the canons of polite society.
Posted by: DV8 Oct 3 2003, 07:43 PM
Officially http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=canon means law, rule, or code of law. In reference to Shadowrun, it means information officially sanctioned by the developers.
Posted by: DV8 Oct 3 2003, 07:45 PM
Another thought; the Shadowrun universe is an evolving one, so the storyline is thought up by the developers. It's important to indicate wether or not you follow the developer's/official storyline when discussing Shadowrun. The word "canon" seemed like a good word to use, I guess. 
Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 3 2003, 07:46 PM
Dictionary.com came up with:
| QUOTE |
| can·on n. 1. An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council. 2. A secular law, rule, or code of law. 3.a. An established principle: the canons of polite society. 3.b. A basis for judgment; a standard or criterion. 4. The books of the Bible officially accepted as Holy Scripture. 5.a. A group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field: “the durable canon of American short fiction” (William Styron). 5.b. The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic: the entire Shakespeare canon. 6. Canon The part of the Mass beginning after the Preface and Sanctus and ending just before the Lord's Prayer. 7. The calendar of saints accepted by the Roman Catholic Church. 8. Music. A composition or passage in which a melody is imitated by one or more voices at fixed intervals of pitch and time. |
Options 5.a. and 5.b. are the closest to the meaning we use here. It's anything published in a book for the current edition (for rules) or anything published by FASA or Fanpro in any edition (for background... sometimes this isn't true, though).
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 4 2003, 12:32 AM
Currently Canon includes all Shadowrun books produced by FASA and Fanpro in English, as well as all SR material on their website.
This then leaves open the question of English and German-language novels, German-only sourcebooks; "official" scenarios only used during the Cons, and publications such as Ka*Ge and Shadowland.
Things like the French sourcebook are less canon than Adam's Japanese SR phone card, thank you Gnu.
Posted by: Aramus Oct 4 2003, 01:30 AM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Things like the French sourcebook are less canon than Adam's Japanese SR phone card, thank you Gnu. |
Eh....hmm.... EH ! I love french book, they are great
I can be a french (Canadian) but the english ones is much better than french ones, that's paradoxical (?) !
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 4 2003, 01:42 AM
Nononono...the France Sourcebook, printed only in French, in France, was a hideous travesty (at least the few excerpts I've seen and translated on my own; many people seem to agree with me), and was apparently created without the permission or knowledge of FASA or FanPro. Way back when.
Posted by: KosherPickle Oct 4 2003, 03:12 AM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Currently Canon includes all Shadowrun books produced by FASA and Fanpro in English, as well as all SR material on their website. |
That description would then include all FASA/ROC novels, which is somewhat debatable.
Aside from Burning Bright, can any other novels be considered absolutely canonical?
Posted by: Aramus Oct 4 2003, 03:24 AM
Ah ok yeah.... the Descartes one ! Yeah we got it here too... pretty scary....
Posted by: Adam Oct 4 2003, 03:37 AM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Nononono...the France Sourcebook, printed only in French, in France, was a hideous travesty (at least the few excerpts I've seen and translated on my own; many people seem to agree with me), and was apparently created without the permission or knowledge of FASA or FanPro. Way back when. |
What? It was a fully licensed product, AFAIK. I'll check the legal info when I pick up my copy tomorrow.
Posted by: Adam Oct 4 2003, 03:40 AM
| QUOTE (KosherPickle) |
| That description would then include all FASA/ROC novels, which is somewhat debatable. Aside from Burning Bright, can any other novels be considered absolutely canonical? |
All the novels are canon. Some are just ignored because the continuity was piss-poor on some of them. [Lucifer Deck, I'm looking at you, baby.]
Posted by: Rice Bowl Oct 4 2003, 05:35 AM
[QUOTE]QUOTE (Ancient History)
Nononono...the France Sourcebook, printed only in French, in France, was a hideous travesty (at least the few excerpts I've seen and translated on my own; many people seem to agree with me), and was apparently created without the permission or knowledge of FASA or FanPro. Way back when.
What? It was a fully licensed product, AFAIK. I'll check the legal info when I pick up my copy tomorrow. [QUOTE]
Then if it was licensed, I'm very curious about the kind of follow-up FASA made for this sourcebook.
Did anyone fucking read it??
It's by far one of the most ludicrous, inconsistent and juvenile SR products (ok, I'm not counting some novels, DNA/DOA).
Still waiting for Shadows of Europe to get any canon on France and I guess that it will be as close to France Sourcebook than Germany Sourcebook was to the German adventure in Harlequin.
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 4 2003, 02:21 PM
Okay, keeping in mind that I am not all-knowing, it was my understanding that the France sourcebook was not a licensed product, which is one reason everyone said it suxxored.
Posted by: Synner Oct 4 2003, 05:01 PM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| It was my understanding that the France sourcebook was not a licensed product, which is one reason everyone said it suxxored. |
The France sb was a fully licensed sourcebook by the current holder of the French language license, Jeux Descartes.
The major reason the book sucked/sucks is that the author suffered a major case of my-country-is-better-than-yours syndrome, blatantly ignored or trod over established canon world information and pulled stunts like make the French Matrix immune to the Crash (because as we all know the french all still use minitel rather than the internet)... that being said the books does contain several interesting ideas and does actually pours on the atmosphere at points.
Posted by: Rice Bowl Oct 4 2003, 06:29 PM
Yeah and Jeux Descartes who does a relatively honest job of editing the SR game line in France sucked big time with that France sb.
What I hate particularly about this France sb is that not only didn't they care about the precious little info already previously released in other sb (London, Germany, Cyberpirates), but also ALL the "atmosphere points" are blatantly and largely "inspired" by some other atmosphere points in other previously released FASA sb and fan articles...
But what the hell of a follow up job FASA commited to let them have Mr. Darke 2 roaming freely around (please note that French runners being so clever everybody posts about his real motives)? a whole region under an Horror-type mist? a small Berlin-anarchy like town (i.e.: Marseille, completely different from Cyberpirates reference)? atmosphere points constantly littered with the same juvenile humor and the same private jokes????
Allo FASA??
Posted by: FlakJacket Oct 4 2003, 10:26 PM
AFAIK, whilst it might have been licensed they didn't take their final draft to FASA/the line developer for the once over before going to print, so it's not officially considered canon. That plus it's crap.
Posted by: Bull Oct 5 2003, 05:57 AM
I'm not 100% sure what line Rob follows, but it probably is similar to FASA's old stance.
Basically, the only thing that was "official canon" was Shadworun material published by FASA. This included the novels, though as Mike Mulvihill said on several occasions, they were canon as far as major storyline went, not as far as rules went. AKA, don't try to extrapolate rules from the novels, because authors will take creative license with the world from time to time. They were occasinally slightly off (Goblinized Dwarf in Shadowboxer, for example), but this was an editing slip, I believe.
The licensed products were never considered Canon. This included all German FanPro material, at least till they got the license. Most licensed products deviated at least a little from straight Canon and often were afflicted with the "My country is better/cooler/whatever than yours". (This is mostloy secondhand info on my part, since I'm restricted to knowing ENglish and a little Latin). They were not required to go through FASA editing (And often couldn't, since no one at FASA knew Japanese or enough French to read the book fluently), and outside of some input during the proposal stage, I don;t think FASA ever really had any solid input in the books.
Bull
Posted by: DV8 Oct 5 2003, 09:29 AM
| QUOTE (Adam) | ||
All the novels are canon. Some are just ignored because the continuity was piss-poor on some of them. [Lucifer Deck, I'm looking at you, baby.] |
Oh, Christ, what a load of horseshit that book was.
Posted by: Abstruse Oct 5 2003, 12:13 PM
Seems the only version that DIDN'T suffer from My Country Is Better Than Yours (further known as MCIBTY) were the English speaking ones. The USA and Canada are no more, Ireland got taken over by elves, the UK is a mess, Australia is plagued by magical storms...did I miss any?
The Abstruse One
Posted by: Nath Oct 5 2003, 06:02 PM
| QUOTE (Abstruse) |
| Seems the only version that DIDN'T suffer from My Country Is Better Than Yours (further known as MCIBTY) were the English speaking ones. The USA and Canada are no more, Ireland got taken over by elves, the UK is a mess, Australia is plagued by magical storms...did I miss any? |
That's an oversimplified view of the MCIBTY problem. I remember the economic chapter in the London SB book explaining UK ownz UCAS economy, and of course the infamous Snowdonia orichalcum mine years before YotC. And in T:AL there was still a sentence about how the Australian government did better than all the other in the world to keep the corps in line. And at the opposite to speak about the French France SB, idea like the return to nobility ruling or the walling of Marseille are stupid, not better in anyway (unless you're a hardcore royalist, of course).
| QUOTE (Rice Bowl) |
| Marseille, completely different from Cyberpirates reference |
Sure, the idea of walling Marseille like they did in the FrFrSB is one of those idea S-F authors came with without ever going near explaining the why. But IIRC, Cyberpirates' reference to Marseille, as a high-end tourist resort without room for criminals, sucked as well, if not more. Marseille is a city with 1.2 million inhabitants, poor suburbs, heavy industry, something like the first port in Mediterranea, third in Europe, in tons of cargo. And the whole coast has an important criminilaty (only rivaled by Paris sprawl), with Marseille as the capital. It has nice spots for tourists and some rich districts, but above a cetain size you can't sum up a city, less several ones, in a single sentence.
Posted by: Jérémie Oct 5 2003, 06:54 PM
| QUOTE (Ancient History @ Oct 4 2003, 03:42 AM) |
| Nononono...the France Sourcebook, printed only in French, in France, was a hideous travesty (at least the few excerpts I've seen and translated on my own; many people seem to agree with me), and was apparently created without the permission or knowledge of FASA or FanPro. |
I agree about the quality of the product. But if you want to be accurate, several authors asked FASA about some ideas of them, some plot, and never get an answer. It not that black and white
And it was with the permission AND knowledge of FASA, Jeux Descartes Editeur (the french publisher of SR since SR2) signed a contract with them.Oh and btw, a significant portion of the french players (the one that speak a little english and know a lot about the game) knows that the France Sourcebook is not canon for a long time now. We wait for SOE as the messiah
Posted by: FlakJacket Oct 5 2003, 07:04 PM
| QUOTE (Nath) |
| That's an oversimplified view of the MCIBTY problem. I remember the economic chapter in the London SB book explaining UK ownz UCAS economy, |
It did? Christ, you mean they actually wrote something posisitive? Excuse me, I feel faint.
Although it wasn't that bas was it? Something like eight to ten percent? Which since the way they portrayed British realtions with Europe, and the likely mirroring business attitudes, I could see most of that being moved to the UCAS. Although 10 is just a little steep yeah.
Posted by: Synner Oct 5 2003, 08:34 PM
| QUOTE (Jérémie) |
| We wait for SOE as the messiah |
We're never going to live up to the hype. Sheesh.
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 5 2003, 10:49 PM
*Cough* I hear differently, ol' SYnner ol' pal. Sounds to me like it might be just what the doctor ordered?
Posted by: FlakJacket Oct 6 2003, 12:11 AM
Really? I hear it's going to be crap. Most expensive toilet paper anyone here's every going to have bought. Plus you can't even use the covers properly since they're all glossy.
Posted by: Abstruse Oct 6 2003, 12:26 AM
Nonono, that's the 3.5 editions of D&D 
The Abstruse One
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