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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Fully Automatic Grenade Launcher

Posted by: stevebugge Jan 26 2006, 08:37 PM

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mk19.htm

Ok I can't think of anything quite like this in SR Canon, the Panther Cannon may be the closest thing. Anyone ever included something like this in a game?

I had Knight Errant show up with one of these Vehicle Mounted on an MPUV loaded with Concussion grenades at a Container Yard once (PC's thought that instigating a dock labor riot would make good cover for what they were doing). Anyway it was ugly under SR-3 Rules (I mean mechanics wise) trying to combine burst and autofire rules with scatter. I finally ended up going with single check for the shot, plus one scatter roll for each shot fired, it ended up with one long drawn out combat roll for the vehicle gunner, and lots of really messed up runners.

Posted by: Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate Jan 26 2006, 09:07 PM

Words fail me. That is...scary.

I can't really see these being deployed anywhere near a city environment that you actually wanted to keep intact, though. Even loading such a thing like this with stun grenades, you're going to get a lot of fatalities.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 26 2006, 09:49 PM

They are heavy military weapons, usually used for infantry support at the platoon level. They are definitely not for police or security use, except in seriously hostile places -- such as the Middle East or Africa... I'd say they are about as common as anti-tank missiles -- only special operations units of corporate security forces would have them, and they would only be deployed when there is reason to believe they would be needed and, as Gyro pointed out, they would not cause too much collateral damage.

As is the case with all heavier support weaponry, you have to do your utmost to make sure the weapon cannot effectively engage you. If it can engage you, you're dead. It's like with all heavy fire support: when they start firing, it's a good idea to fortwith place your center-mass at least 1 meter below ground level, or else make sure you are fully surrounded by sturdy concrete walls.

And seriously, if that scares you, maybe you should watch a few clips of the action from Falluja and elsewhere. Large brick and concrete building being reduced to dust with heavy weapons = FUN!

Oh, and I've used such weapons in my games -- AGLs, automatic cannons, and other heavy weaponry. My players were usually bright enough not to get targeted by them. And that's good, because these weapons are pretty Hand of God-ish, and I don't want to seem like I'm just arbitrarily killing off PCs, even when that's realistic, unless the players are being really stupid.

Posted by: stevebugge Jan 26 2006, 10:43 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jan 26 2006, 01:49 PM)

Oh, and I've used such weapons in my games -- AGLs, automatic cannons, and other heavy weaponry. My players were usually bright enough not to get targeted by them. And that's good, because these weapons are pretty Hand of God-ish, and I don't want to seem like I'm just arbitrarily killing off PCs, even when that's realistic, unless the players are being really stupid.

I agree with this. The one time described above where KE rolled this sucker out was at the culmination of a couple of sessions where the players (who were annoying power gamers) had been doing really over the top stuff and escaping ever escalating responses. The idea was to show them that using direct conflict as their tactic of choice against even a subsidiary of a mega (ARES in this case) was going to end badly. They survived bruised and bloodied, but their reps took a huge hit when the shadow community learned that they were willing to sacrifice large numbers of common laborers as cover for what was supposed to be a covert theft of cargo. ALso it was a quick informer that Knight Errant can be a bit heavy handed (especially if you've previously shown them up).

Posted by: Backgammon Jan 27 2006, 12:11 AM

I believe the Mk19 is a standard mount for humvees. The marines from the unit in Generation Kill had one and loved it very much, though it's apparently a bitch to aim due to a complicated lever system... anyway, not that you need to aim that much.

Posted by: Fix-it Jan 27 2006, 12:11 AM

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mk-19-andy2.jpg

a 249 (??) in the passenger seat, MK19 up top, and a pair of LAWs in case you run into anything really heavy.

the only thing it's missinng is a turbocharger with an air scoop. and maybe a NOS system....

Posted by: Ed_209a Jan 27 2006, 02:23 AM

The MG looks like some flavor of 7.62mm. M60 maybe, doesn't look boxy enough for a M240.

The rocket launchers are AT4s, not LAWs, but still...

The perfect thing for a romp on the beach.

Omaha Beach.

Posted by: eidolon Jan 27 2006, 01:51 AM

QUOTE (Fix-it @ Jan 26 2006, 07:11 PM)

You're only a few months of training away from having one. Of course, you have to join the Army, make it through selection, make it through school, and the whole time try to ignore the fact that your next stop is Iraq...

But yeah, it can be yours.

<<edit>> As for the MG, it's a bit hard to see in the pic, but my guess based on "what we use right now" is the M-249 SAW. The barrel looks a bit long, but it's probably just the picture.

Posted by: Ed_209a Jan 27 2006, 02:02 AM

QUOTE (Backgammon)

...it's apparently a bitch to aim due to a complicated lever system... anyway, not that you need to aim that much.

It's a bitch to aim because the 70lb gun has a nearly 20lb part that moves back and forth 6 times a second. If you don't lock it down on it's mount before each burst, it bucks like a bronco.

Posted by: FlakJacket Jan 27 2006, 03:34 AM

QUOTE (eidolon)

As for the MG, it's a bit hard to see in the pic, but my guess based on "what we use right now" is the M-249 SAW. The barrel looks a bit long, but it's probably just the picture.

Fairly sure it's an M60. If you have a look at http://www.seawolf.org/weapons/m60.jpg and compare them it looks an awful lot like an M60, especially the honking great big iron sight right at the end of the barrel and the large gas system housing under it. If it's fixed on a mount and you're not going to have to be humping the thing around then you might as well go for the heavier 7.62 load is probably how the thinking went.

Fairly similar to what some of the British army were roaming round in during Gulf War Mk. I although they simply used customised Land Rovers. Stuck an M2 50 calibre on a ring mount in the back and gave the navigator a detachable Minimi. Throw some anti-tank ordnance in with the luggage and you've got a pretty good ride for out in the sticks.

Posted by: eidolon Jan 27 2006, 04:09 AM

Damn my eyes. I think you're right.

When I saw the sight, the back of my brain whispered "the SAW's site is much smaller and the barrel is shorter", but I ignored it.

Posted by: Ed_209a Jan 27 2006, 05:35 AM

I think it's a M60 too. The M240 has a much shorter front sight.

About Flakjacket's M60 pics, have any of you seen a M60 without the standard buttplate like in the pic? I guess it could just be the standard part with the plastic parts removed, but the rivet pattern looks different.

Posted by: Edward Jan 27 2006, 09:49 AM

The problem with using concussion grenades in such a thing is that there is a high probability of an individual being hit buy 3 or more grenades.

As you may be aware SR rules place that as fatal or near fatal unless you have heavy protective equipment (runners usually do). I don’t know much about real grenades but this doesn’t sound unrealistic, a resident gun nut to confirm would be appreciated.

Given this fact I would say this weapon is never rolled out unless fatalities are acceptable in witch case they wouldn’t mess around with concussion grenades.

Edward

Posted by: mfb Jan 27 2006, 12:31 PM

eh. if you're going to be houseruling in automatic grenade launchers, it would be irresponsible to not also houserule in burst/autofire rules for grenades similar to the regular burst/autofire rules.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 27 2006, 12:49 PM

QUOTE (Edward)

I don’t know much about real grenades but this doesn’t sound unrealistic, a resident gun nut to confirm would be appreciated.

Depends on what a "concussion grenade" is supposed to be. If it's a simple offensive grenade, ie. a high explosive grenade with no fragmentation, then one direct hit on an unarmored individual would be very likely to be lethal. If it's something like a flash-bang grenade, then death is unlikely unless they penetrate the skin and go off inside the target.

Of course, when you're bringing a motherfucking automatic grenade launcher into play, it's usually because you do want fatalities. Collateral damage and large potential wounding radius are more likely deterrants to fielding heavy weaponry.

Posted by: Critias Jan 27 2006, 01:57 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

As is the case with all heavier support weaponry, you have to do your utmost to make sure the weapon cannot effectively engage you. If it can engage you, you're dead.

A lot of GMs forget that (not just about this weapon in particular, but anything LMG+). For a little while, all my GMs were on this kick where like one NPC out of every four or so would have an Ares HV MP-LMG, with plenty of recoil comp. Then they'd shoot an aimed burst at a single character (almost always mine, natch). Then they'd wonder why we felt so very, very, lucky to survive a "skirmish."

It's easy for a GM to think "last fight, all the baddies had pistols and smgs, and none of the players got hurt. This time, I'll give all the baddies assault rifles and LMGs. That'll make it a challenge." When, instead, they're passing out a death sentence. Once you put some recoil comp on any of Shadowrun's heavy weapons, the game can very easily reach a point where your PCs just draw straws to see who dies this turn.

Posted by: stevebugge Jan 27 2006, 04:05 PM

QUOTE (Critias)

It's easy for a GM to think "last fight, all the baddies had pistols and smgs, and none of the players got hurt. This time, I'll give all the baddies assault rifles and LMGs. That'll make it a challenge." When, instead, they're passing out a death sentence. Once you put some recoil comp on any of Shadowrun's heavy weapons, the game can very easily reach a point where your PCs just draw straws to see who dies this turn.

This is a really good point, it's also a phase almost every GM goes through while learning the trade. In a normal one of my games the heaviest weapon a security guard was likely to be sporting would be a shotgun like the Remington 990. SOP said use the Tasers and pepper spray first, it keeps the lawyers happy. I tend to reserve weapons like the MK19 (it had a different name in the gamebut I've forgotten what it was) for things like Desert Wars runs or Mercenary Campaigns. The other time they come out is to make points to players, the group in question for this piece had a D&D background and they had actually been getting upset the guards didn't have better stuff for them to take. Basically they asked for it.

Also on the concussion/stun grenade thing I envisioned them to basically be flash-bangs, but yes there was still a pretty high casualty rate. The setting was a shipping container yard, shipping containers are pretty durable, a few had some holes punched in them when a round landed really close by.

Posted by: noname_hero Jan 27 2006, 05:53 PM

QUOTE (Critias @ Jan 27 2006, 01:57 PM)

Totally unnecessary overkill, sadly one many GMs fall to at some point in their career. The fact that all the gangers/cops/guards/whatever do *not* start toting milspec equipment, just because the characters proved capable of defeating them when they've been armed with basic gear, could be worth mentioning somewhere in the rules. No matter how many cops one's characters kill, your average beat cop will use the same gear he's been using for the past two years.
Besides, I've always found that even a simple ganger can make a character *hurt*. Give him his grandpa's double-barreled shotgun, load it with standard ammo, and fire both barrels as an aimed short burst: 12S damage, -1 to TN.

Regarding the AGL issue: about the only time I've used it against the group was in a run where they basically had to defend a farm-turned-to-a-mage's-lab located some way away from what most runners consider civilization. It proved itself useful for laying down a barrage of smoke grenades, all the characters operating outdoors had gasmasks so it was safe to unload some neurostun grenades, and the scatter combined with various TN modifiers made it relatively safe to use stun grenades against the two heavily-armored trolls in the group.

All in all, it was a nice demonstration of what some heavy firepower could be like without having to actually use it.

Posted by: Fix-it Jan 27 2006, 06:28 PM

y'know how this could be the most evil??
fitting it into an automated turret with the ability to switch between different ammo types on the fly (anti armor, frag, HE, Incindiery, concussion.) then add AA turret mods, a grenade link, and you've got something that can take on anything.

air-detonated concussion grenade at a rotodrone = crash test, in my book.

Posted by: Ed_209a Jan 27 2006, 08:06 PM

I think 40mm grenades would be very hard to use against any kind of aerial target. BUT, look up the USMC AAV, or Amtrack. It has a small turret with a Mk19 AGL and a M2 HMG.

I love that combo. The AGL for slow/big things, the HMG for quick/small things.

Posted by: Raygun Jan 29 2006, 08:45 AM

Or you could go with http://www.gdatp.com/products/lethality/xm307/xm307.htm, which is supposed to take over both roles. I think it has the Mk19 pretty well covered, but I don't see it wholly replacing the M2 (that's what http://www.gdatp.com/products/lethality/xm312/xm312.htm I guess). Pretty much everything the Mk19 has to offer only it's lighter, trajectory is much flatter, and it can airburst against personnel and other light targets.

Posted by: Ed_209a Jan 29 2006, 01:45 PM

If I remember correctly, the .50 XM312 and the 25mm XM307 will have enough parts in common that the Army is wanting to have a crew/armorer level conversion kit between the two calibers.