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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ SHP 1.3

Posted by: Serbitar Jan 26 2006, 11:34 PM

http://www.serbitar.de/stuff/SHP.pdf

Have fun

EDIT: updated to 1.4

Posted by: BlackHat Jan 27 2006, 04:50 PM

Very nice. VERY nice.

If nothing else, its a decent guide to some of the rules-holes in the SR4 core. I hope my players never see this thread.

In my next game, I'll probably attempt to incorporate these rules, but I think that switching now (while we're all still just learnign the new edition) would be a little bit like yanking the rug out from under them.

Posted by: MaxHunter Jan 27 2006, 09:14 PM

Very nice indeed, good organization too.

Cheers,

Max

Posted by: September Jan 28 2006, 01:14 AM

One thing I would say - the change where you make Logic part of Matrix actions. Wouldn't the impact of Logic be your writing the program?

Posted by: Chandon Jan 28 2006, 02:47 AM

There are a couple places where these rules make changes that may make a larger difference in flavor than you might have expected:

1.) You have mtahumans with attribute penalties pay for the value not including the penalty. This causes these attributes to be massively more expensive than they ever were before (both at chargen and during character advancement), and makes logic or charisma dependant Orcs and Trolls vastly harder to build.

2.) Having logic apply to computer tests is great, but having the program rating limit successes prevents exceptional success on any computer test. It ends up being similar to a "no more than half your dice may be successes" rule, completely throwing off the probability curve of computer tests. I'd suggest eithor standardizing on program ratings from 1 - 12, or saying that successes are limited to 2x program rating.

Posted by: Serbitar Jan 28 2006, 12:23 PM

QUOTE (Chandon @ Jan 27 2006, 09:47 PM)

1.) You have mtahumans with attribute penalties pay for the value not including the penalty. This causes these attributes to be massively more expensive than they ever were before (both at chargen and during character advancement), and makes logic or charisma dependant Orcs and Trolls vastly harder to build.

That is supposed to be so. On the other hand, strength and body become much cheaper. The point is, that the average rating in an attribute costs humans as much as trolls. And I thinks this is what the "meaning" of "average attribute" in a char creation system should be.

QUOTE

2.) Having logic apply to computer tests is great, but having the program rating limit successes prevents exceptional success on any computer test. It ends up being similar to a "no more than half your dice may be successes" rule, completely throwing off the probability curve of computer tests. I'd suggest eithor standardizing on program ratings from 1 - 12, or saying that successes are limited to 2x program rating.

You might want to look at the propability calculations made in this thread.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=9734&hl=hacking

BTW: Due to popular demand, SHP 1.4 is in testing at the moment, which includes revised cyberlimb rules and SINcheckers

Posted by: Sigfried McWild Jan 29 2006, 06:04 PM

About the flechette ammo fix:

the +2dv bonus requires 6 points of armour to be balanced, if you then consider that the impact rating is usually 2 points lower than the ballistic rating the only armour that fares as well againts flechette than standard armour under the flechette is resisted by double impact rule is a full body armour (10 for standard ammo vs 8*2-6 for "normalised" flechette). Now this might be intended but full body armour is as heavy as you can get, I'd think flechette should be fairly ineffective againts armour vests already (where under your suggested fix you have 6 for standard ammo vs 4*2-6 for "normalised" flechette).

Wouldn't it much esier to say that againts armoured opponents flechette loses the +2 DV (keeping the +2AP and resisted by impact) making it identical to standard ammo? Or even better againts armour it has -2DV, 0AP and resisted by impact, finally making it all around worse against armoured opponents without introducing weird side effects of multiplicative effects.

Or is the double armour designed to ensure that flechette will almost always stun armoured opponents instead of doing physical damage? My second proposed change should have similar effects.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jan 29 2006, 07:01 PM

The karma costs for metahumans thing is actually not too bad an idea. One thing that you're missing is something to make the Increase Reflexes spell force dependant in some way. That's something that's always bothered me since SR3, and it's slightly better but not quite there yet.

Posted by: Sigfried McWild Jan 30 2006, 07:38 PM

Regarding the stun damage is better than physical, what about having the stun track based off either body or will, whichever is higher (it's just wrong that a troll is just as easy to knock out as a human and easier than a dwarf).

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Jan 30 2006, 08:21 PM

Except it isn't "just as easy to knock out a Troll" - you still have to overcome that ungodly soak roll they have.

So what if they have one less box of stun damage if they routinely take 1/3 the number of boxes of damage compared to a human?

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 30 2006, 08:26 PM

I'd rather it was something like:

[*] The number of boxes you have is based on your body.

[*] You pass out when you've filled in a number of boxes based on your willpower.

That way Trolls would go down quite a bit before they were close to death, unless they had pain resistance.

-Frank

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Jan 30 2006, 08:38 PM

Er....it's not unlike that in SR4...

There isn't a reference to "unconscious or dying" on the mental track anymore (at least that I've seen) like there was in SR3. You're just ko'd.

So you still have the full physical track to go through.

Posted by: Sigfried McWild Jan 30 2006, 08:40 PM

QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable)

That is a good point. Stun damage is still a much better option all around though, since there's less stun boxes than physical ones on most characters (weedy mages might have more stun, but at cap everybody has at least as much physical as stun). Given all the advantages of just stunning someone I've listed above this seems wrong.

Frank Trollman, I don't see what your post is saying, unless you are advocating unification of the 2 tracks.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 30 2006, 09:22 PM

My idea is to put the point at which you go unconcious in a potentially different place from the point at which your track ends.

You go down when you have 8+1/2 Willpower boxes that count for damage penalties filled in on either track. The track is actually 8+1/2 Body boxes long.

So if you have a Body of 8 and a Will of 4, your Stun and physical tracks are 12 boxes long. But you'll drop when 10 boxes get filled in on either track. So if you get 10 Stun you go down, but it takes 13 Stun before you start overflowing into physical.

That way Willpower and Body are both important, but neither Stun nor physical damage is "better" at dropping any particular enemy.

-Frank

Posted by: Sigfried McWild Jan 30 2006, 09:30 PM

I like that idea, although I think at that point you should raise the limit on passing out a bit, eg 8+will, leaving a full stun track as passing out too.

Posted by: Serbitar Jan 30 2006, 11:44 PM

QUOTE (Sigfried McWild @ Jan 29 2006, 01:04 PM)

Now this might be intended but full body armour is as heavy as you can get, I'd think flechette should be fairly ineffective againts armour vests already.

It is, as physical damage transformed to stun is halved after damage resistance in my house rule system.

QUOTE

Wouldn't it much esier to say that againts armoured opponents flechette loses the +2 DV (keeping the +2AP and resisted by impact) making it identical to standard ammo? Or even better againts armour it has -2DV, 0AP and resisted by impact, finally making it all around worse against armoured opponents without introducing weird side effects of multiplicative effects.

It would be easier, but it would mean a sudden step from armor 0 (flechette works) to amor 1 (flechette) doesnt worl. I hate sudden steps like this. Furthermore, the 0/1 transition is arbitrary, a 1/2 oder 2/3 transition is no too bad, too.
I like smooth transitions and thus my rule.

QUOTE

Or is the double armour designed to ensure that flechette will almost always stun armoured opponents instead of doing physical damage? My second proposed change should have similar effects.

Yes, thats right. See my reasoning above.

Posted by: Sigfried McWild Jan 31 2006, 12:05 AM

I find the half stun damage due armour rule to be a bit too arbitrary.
At present all damage works in the same way (take effective DV, resist with armour, add to rack). Introducing that rule adds a unique special case to damage, which kinda clashes with the rest of the system.
I do agree that at the moment stun seems a much better choice of damage compared to physical (especially considering it does last for quite a bit) but I'd rather see a more "seamless" solution.

Posted by: Serbitar Jan 31 2006, 09:04 AM

The conversion from physical to stun is also not very seamless and a very unique rule, so I think it doesnt matter if you make it a little more special, I think.

But here is another solution. Maybe this is better:

Physical damage transformed to stun is resisted with both ballistic and impact armor. Sounds even logical.

Posted by: Sigfried McWild Jan 31 2006, 12:54 PM

That's a mighty nice tweak. Alhtough it does need some consideration for flechette ammo and melee weapons.

A more general statemement might be "physical damage reduced to stun is resited both by the normal armour used againts it and impact armour (2*impact if it is normally resisted by impact armour and ballistic+imact if it applies to ballistic)

Posted by: ankh-le-fixer Jan 31 2006, 03:24 PM

QUOTE ("Serbitar House Rules")

Physical attribute costs :
5 x “New Grade”
Note that this affects only the cost of physical attributes. Magic, Resonance and Edge still stick with their old SR4 karma costs.

And what about the mental attributes?

Posted by: Serbitar Jan 31 2006, 04:08 PM

@ ankh: I consider all 8 attributes physical, in opposition to edge, magic and resonance, which are non-physical. I think the rulebook refers to all the 8 attributes as "physical attributes", too, including willpower, logic, intuition and charisma.

@Siegfired: Thats a good addition. I'll include this in the next version.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jan 31 2006, 04:31 PM

QUOTE (Serbitar)

Physical damage transformed to stun is resisted with both ballistic and impact armor. Sounds even logical.

Very interesting. How does this interact with AP? For instance, a pred (5P/-1) hits a guy in an armor jacket (8/6). It's stun, so he resists with body + x where x is:

13 (8b -1ap +6i)
12 [(8b - 1ap) + (6i - 1ap)]

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 31 2006, 04:49 PM

Physical Attributes are B A R S
Mental Attributes are C I L W
Special Attributes are Ess Edg Mag Res

-Frank

Posted by: Darkness Jan 31 2006, 04:52 PM

QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jan 31 2006, 05:08 PM)

I think the rulebook refers to all the 8 attributes as "physical attributes", too, including willpower, logic, intuition and charisma.

Incorrect. Three different types of attributes exist: Physical; including agility, body reaction and strength, Mental; including charisma, intuition, logic and willpower, and Special; representing essence, edge, initiative (as derived attribute) magic and resonance. Definition can be found on page 60ff.

[Edit]Darn, too slow.[/edit]

Posted by: Serbitar Feb 1 2006, 12:09 AM

QUOTE (TinkerGnome)

QUOTE (Serbitar)

Physical damage transformed to stun is resisted with both ballistic and impact armor. Sounds even logical.

Very interesting. How does this interact with AP? For instance, a pred (5P/-1) hits a guy in an armor jacket (8/6). It's stun, so he resists with body + x where x is:

13 (8b -1ap +6i)
12 [(8b - 1ap) + (6i - 1ap)]

keep it simple. If it doesnt breach your (ballistic) armor, you can resist it with impact. allways the full ammount of impact. So my answer would be 13.

In my house rules, where flechette is resisted with 2xImpact, it would be resisted with 3x impact when the DV is not higher than 2xImpact. And thats exactly the way flechette is supposed to work. The break even point of flechette/regular with a Predator would be a lined coat (6/4) or something. Above, regular ammo is better, beyond, flechette is better.

@frank et al.

Thanks for the correction.