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Posted by: Skarn Ka Oct 6 2003, 11:52 AM

One of my players has designed a character with almost no skills and the 1 million in ressources. But he has tons of skillsofts and the corresponding cyber, which makes him competent in almost everything he wants. since you'll never use more than two or three skills at the same time, he virtually has all his skills available.
His background is very good, coherent, and I wouldn't like to punish him. But the problem is:
-if he's got his chips, he's a munchkin (from the start !)
-if he loses his chips, he's nothing, not playable at all

Note that he has some natural skills, not very high, not numerous, but all in coherence with his char's concept.

How would you limit it, while keeping the fun and originality of the char, and respecting the player's creativity ?

Posted by: Abstruse Oct 6 2003, 12:10 PM

Remember that skillsofts are preprogramed responses of skills. Which means that when using a skillsoft, you tend to act like a robot using preset definitions and things like that. Usually doesn't matter, but when you're experiencing something new, then you're going to have a bit more trouble. This doesn't matter with Pistols, but it does with things like Electronics. You may know how to re-route the circuits in anything known, but if you run across a prototype you've never seen before, you might run into a little trouble.

Plus with linguasofts, you'll tend to sound very machine-like, similar to reading a translation off Babelfish. You'll be able to get your meaning across, but slang and small vocal tricks will give him some trouble.

Don't penalize them, but just try to emphasize the computer-based nature of skillsofts...and for Coyote's sake do NOT, I repeat, do NOT let him use his dice pools unless he gets the upgrade thingy I can't remember the name of right now. That's a BIG disadvantage...

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Birdy Oct 6 2003, 12:14 PM

We use the old rule from Cyberpunk (based on a line in "Hardwired") that you have to work with your skillchip to give chip the chance to adapt to your body. This is only done with a new chip but takes time (1 day/level for lingua, 1 week/level for active) and after that the chip only works with you.

Birdy

Posted by: Dashifen Oct 6 2003, 12:18 PM

Posted by: wienerwürstchen Oct 6 2003, 12:42 PM

..the DIMAP Option from the Arsenal

Posted by: BlackSmith Oct 6 2003, 12:46 PM

Posted by: The Jopp Oct 6 2003, 12:59 PM

Posted by: The White Dwarf Oct 6 2003, 01:27 PM

Three things:

1) Skillwires are, in almost every case, so cost prohibitive that they are unusable at starting in anything other than a minor/supporting role. Before anything gets the greenlight, double check all cost calculations (including alphaware costs and options changes to soft's price, etc etc) because I find it impossible that this is usable enough to be considered munchy without the hardcopy proof (not that you need to post it, just be sure theres not some clerical error here).

2) The task pool is not broken. The only imbalancing instance is that it allows a dice pool for social skills, which normally have access to none. In all other cases it does NOT equal 6 skill + 6 pool = 12 dice. Its a pool, it refreshes per normal pool rules, the task pool section says as much explicitly. Sure you can do a 12 dice skill roll, then you get no pool until they refresh per normal, same as anything else.

3) To quote "almost no skills and tons of skillsofts". Id offer some advice here if you provided more concrete numbers; for example "10 skillpoints and 40 points worth of softs". It would take a seriously skewed number in both areas for this to really be a problem when combined with points 1 and 2. In addition, assuming the character is non-magical, Im not sure how few skillpoints they could be using. Under the BP system, even if they did 60 in attributes and 30 in resources, and lost 6 to edges, they still get 24 points for skills with a 120 total. 24 isnt huge but its not few either, heck 24 is a decent letter priority iirc. So theres not much I can offer in this area unless you want to clarify the situation, except that comparitvly I again find it highly unlikely that an imbalance of any substantial scale could occur.

Posted by: BlackSmith Oct 6 2003, 01:29 PM

i still dont know about this Arsenal thingy but sounds about broken stuff.
anyway, chipskills will never get ANY pool dices used in our games.
sure it gets expencive at higher skill rates but so what, it is only money.

and when i GM any lightning spell making more than light damage cooks the chips.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 6 2003, 01:38 PM

Posted by: Abstruse Oct 6 2003, 01:45 PM

I actually figured this out. It's cheaper in build points to shove a chipjack in your skill and buy linguasofts than it is to buy the damn skills. Or was it karma from BeCKS...probably both...

The Sleep-Deprived One

Posted by: The Jopp Oct 6 2003, 01:45 PM

Posted by: Siege Oct 6 2003, 01:48 PM

Posted by: Abstruse Oct 6 2003, 01:48 PM

BTW, there is a social stigma to skillsofts (at least in my games...) Basically, your skill doesn't come from your talent, but from your pocketbook. If I had a character like that in my game, you can be assured that many NPCs would be making references to the "Little rich boy playing shadowrunner".

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Cochise Oct 6 2003, 01:50 PM

Posted by: The Jopp Oct 6 2003, 02:00 PM

Posted by: The White Dwarf Oct 6 2003, 02:03 PM

The Jopp:

Nope, wrong. See the skillwires cost is double what you listed.

Quote:
Skillwires with 216MPS memory, thats enought for 2 skills at once.
Rating X 500 X MPS= 6*500*216=648000

In order to run 2 skills at once, the Rating value must be 12, the total assist value of 2 rating 6 skillsofts. This is clarified in CC. Thus the actual cost of the skillwires alone comes to 1,296,000 nuyen ... more than you can start with.

In order to make the system affordable it cannot run at the level needed to be munchy. You can try to use options to offset this some, but then the program cost starts to double and you get screwed from that end.

Kagetenshi:

No the pool isnt broken. Take these two examples:
Troll, modifed body 12, combat pool 8, gun skill 6.
Human, modified body 6, combat pool 8, chipped gun skill 6 + task pool 6.

The troll comes out ahead in total "combat dice" as long as he is shot and hit at least once because his body is higher. You can skew this comparison an untold number of ways to illustrate this point. A high combat pool adept, any well built tank sam, etc. The illusion of 6 "extra" combat pool really doesnt amount to anything at all when you consider the impact of the other dice in the situation, and the fact that the pool is spread out over multiple actions in almost every circumstance.

If you get shot with 3 or 4 successes from a burst capable gun (not uncommon) those 6 "extra" dice arent enough to even dodge but half the attack. Then you get shot again as another simple action, with no extra dice, and again the next pass or two with no dice. Trying to say "trolls are unbalanced because they get more body" is a sounder argument.

Posted by: Siege Oct 6 2003, 02:06 PM

As written, using a skillchip instead of a natural skill has no drawbacks.

Except for the obvious "don't lose the chip or you get fragged."

There are various house rules to address the perceived imbalances but as to what you choose to use in your game is a matter of taste.

Except for the power monkey I used to game with, skillwires were never really a big issue in my circles.

-Siege

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 6 2003, 02:13 PM

I'm not going to get into combat because it's too early in the morning for that kind of math; maybe I'll address it after Calc later. However:

Person with natural 6 in Electronics: 6 dice, maybe plus a point or two of task pool if he or she has spent a lot of money on other 'ware.

Person with rating 6 chip and CED-6: 12 dice, every time, unless for some reason they need to make more than one Electronics test in three seconds.

Same for every other skill.

~J

Posted by: The Jopp Oct 6 2003, 02:16 PM

White Dwarf:

Ah, so THAT's where they put the balance maker.

In that case you could buy them with a lot less money then? A rating 4 skillwire for 1 Jack would be 4X500X48Mps= 96000. This mean you would have to balance both the MP rating AND the actual skill rating, which is more number crunching just to calculate. So WHY would I need the MPs in the first place? Is that just to calculate the final cost or do they have any other use?

Could you give me a page reference in CC so I can check it?

Posted by: The White Dwarf Oct 6 2003, 02:24 PM

Uh, the front of the skillwires section. When theyre talking about pulse and assist ratings. Pg 58-60. You need MP for a limit just like you need the skill rating. 'Wires need to be able to run both totals to work. So yea, you could probably fit a rating 4 skillwires with one jack... but thats not really overbearing. If a player wants to sink 200k-250k into having a few chipped skills, fine. Pretty close to just using points on em.

As for the pool thing, yea fine on non-combat skills it could get a bit fuzzy. But seriously what situation have electronics 6 or 7 (specialization or enchanced articulation) been insufficent. Tech characters can take aptitude in the relevent skill, they can use tools like a sequencer to help them, they can be assisted by other characters, they can have complementary skill help in some situations, and theres an edge that even lowers the defaulting penalty for those in the event they dont have what the need. I fail to see how youd really ever need the dice in these situations, hence I wouldnt consider them for balance reasons since past 5 or 6 its all pretty much moot anyhow. (I could see the exception would be like a rating 10 lock or something, but you dont go up against something like that unprepped, and the higher the tn the less more dice matters statistically, so again nbd as youre likey to find another solution anyhow). Social skills I will give you tho, thats the one area skillwires can be abused... more dice do matter on those tests and theres no other way to get them (besides buckets of karma).

Posted by: Sphynx Oct 6 2003, 03:03 PM

If you get a chance, check out the [Info] section of http://shadowrun.i-sphynx.com/skillz.htm, the leader of our group. Explains alot about how Skillsofts work and was the reason for my skillsoft calculator everyone likes.

Sphynx

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 6 2003, 04:01 PM

B/R times can be made pretty absurdly short with 12 dice. Demolitions tests? Ouchie. Computers skill? The free-for-all nature of hacking pool makes it less significant, but under some circumstances you can rack up the extra successes for searches and other circumstances when you need five dice. Not to mention that technically you could allocate all of your hacking pool dice to detection factor and then have your CED dice sitting around to use, though I'll admit that I don't know a GM who would allow that one.

As for combat, the extra dice make a difference. They may or may not be spread out that much, depending on the speed of the character in question; for someone getting one action a round, that's either three dice per attack or six to one attack. That's pretty bloody significant, an average increase of .5 or 1 expected success against a TN of 6. Even with speed-freak sammies getting four actions a combat turn, it means that if they really need to they can pour everything into a single attack if they've got a particularly nasty opponent who needs to die NOW.
A little analysis of your argument:

Troll, effective body 12, CP 8, pistols 6
Human, body 6, CP 8, Pistols chip 6, r6 CED.

In this case, which at least in the games I've encountered is pretty reasonable (maybe your games tend to feature heavier artillery, but pistols is the norm that I've seen), we'll say that neither character is particularly smart and they're standing out in the open blasting away at each other with Predators. They are also not wearing armor. I don't know, maybe they're dueling or something.. 9M, TN 4. Troll rolls 6 dice, gets 3 successes; human rolls six of his eight combat pool dice to dodge, gets three successes, no damage. Troll rolls his six again, gets two successes (Ok, he probably gets 1 RC for Strength, but that just means you allocate two of the dice that were rolled for the first dodge test to the second and take two moderate wounds rather than a single serious), human rolls his remaining two dodge dice and his body dice, receiving a moderate wound.
Then the human goes. TN 6, 12 dice, two successes. Troll burns off four dice on dodge pool to dodge it completely, and then another two when the second attack and its one expected success comes around. Doesn't look particularly unbalanced, does it?

Now, with the human going first. Since the first shot has the lower TN, it'd make sense to use all of the dice on this one. 12 dice, 6 expected successes. Troll dodges four, and is expected to get at most one success on his body test, so he takes a Serious wound. With a +3 to all actions, it doesn't matter what happens next; short of a miracle, he's lost the fight. Odds are that he'll die in the next shot, anyway.

Again, with five points of ballistic armor, troll going first: Troll fires, three successes, human rolls six dice, complete dodge, then second attack, two successes, human rolls two and dodges one success, then tries to soak 4M. Three successes, he takes L damage.
Then he goes. TN 5, 12 dice, 4 successes. Troll burns off six dice to dodge three of those, then soaks the remainder. Next shot only gets a single success, almost certainly soaked if not dodged. Disadvantage human.

Now, human first: 12 dice, 6 successes, troll burns all eight dice to get down to 3 successes. Troll is facing Serious damage, but he gets his expected 6 successes and soaks it. Second attack gets two successes, but we've just shown that the troll can expect to soak 4S no trouble.
Doesn't look broken, does it?

Let's compare the costs. Minimum cost for skillwire/CED combo, plus a few skills: ~25 BP.
Cost for Troll: 10 points.
Cost for 6 points Body: 6 points.
Cost for Pistols 6: 6 points

That's 22 points. Still seems that we're getting off cheaply.
Except for that little addition.
"Plus a few skills."
We've got someone who may not be able to stand toe-to-toe with a troll, but who can be a valid threat under the right circumstances. And who also has several more rating 6 skills (rating 12, effectively) for free.
Now, let's try two characters that are the same, except one natural and one chipped:

Human, body 6, CP 8, Pistols 6
Human, body 6, CP 8, chipped Pistols 6, CED 6
5 ballistic armor for both

Natural human gets 3 successes, chipped human dodges all with 6 dice. Natural human goes again, gets 2 successes, one dodged, Light wound for the chipped human after soaking.
Chipped human gets 4 successes with his 12 dice. Natural human dodges everything with his entire CP. Chipped human gets a single success, natural human takes a Light wound. Since we're tied, we'll take this to the second combat round.
Natural human rolls his six dice, two successes, three CP go to dodge one and then one CP goes to make the soak complete. Natural human gets a single success on his next attack, easily dodged by the remaining CP. Then the augmented human goes and throws 12 dice, for 4 successes. Natural human can't be expected to dodge three of them, so he goes for one and spends three CP. Then he has to soak 4S, but with all his dice he can only muster 5.5 expected successes, so he takes another Light and has nothing left. The next attack has but a single success, but he can't defend against it, and he takes a third Light to bring him up to Moderate. He's not winning this.

Give the chipped human the first attack and it's even worse. Twelve dice, six successes, four of which are dodged, one level of soak, Moderate wound. Second attack, two successes, one level of soak, another Moderate for a total of Serious. He's definitely not winning that.

A skillwired person will eat their nonskillwired counterpart for breakfast.

~J

Posted by: BlackSmith Oct 6 2003, 04:13 PM

well if tWD has it right, in Kagetenshi's case we are talking about huge piles of platium credsticks.
and with that load of money you should beat a regural pedestrial.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 6 2003, 04:44 PM

Skillwires for one skill: 500*6*108=¥324,000
CED r6: ¥30,000
10 (!) rating 6 Activesofts:¥108,000
Chipjack: ¥1,000
Total cost thus far: ¥463,000, so costing a minimum of 25 build points. This means that at any given time this character can be toting around ten skills, using one at a time, and throwing 12 dice at them. Say we go a 4-slot multi-slot chipjack; then we're up to ¥466,000. We can't use all of these at once, true, but we can instantly switch between any of 4 rating 6 skills, with a 6-die pool, and an additional 6 skills left to swap in if needed.
That's less than half the capacity of a platinum credstick. Two and a half gold credsticks.

~J

Posted by: BitBasher Oct 6 2003, 04:54 PM

In order to maintain the 6 pool dice you need a CED on each of the 4 slots on the multi slot chipjack. So add another 90k, But that's still pretty damn well worth it in a lot of circumstances. You could also use a SkillSoft Jukebox for the same purpose.

Posted by: The Jopp Oct 6 2003, 06:01 PM

I can't find any reference where Chipjack expert driver can be added to a jukebox. The jukebox is connected to a datajack and you cant add the expert driver ware to the jukebox?

Posted by: Siege Oct 6 2003, 06:08 PM

I think he meant: Use a skillsoft jukebox to swap out the chps being accessed without having to manually swap them.

The CED would still have to be linked to a chipjack.

Any skillchip fed through a datajack to a chipjack could use a CED if the chipjack was so enabled. But obviously you can't use more CEDs than you have equipped. If you have four chipjacks and only two CEDs, only two skills can receieve the CED bonus.

-Siege

Posted by: BlackSmith Oct 6 2003, 06:09 PM

wasent CED errated to have max rating of 3?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 6 2003, 06:30 PM

Nope, not unless I'm missing something on the errata page. Cochise said there would be one, but there isn't yet.

~J

Posted by: Cochise Oct 6 2003, 06:54 PM

I said that the next reprint will have this Errata and that [b]hopefully[B] the Errata shows up on the official page sooner or later ...

All the info I provided is based on what Rob told the german SR community at the german RatCon and what he told me when we had a little "private" chat (due to a little organization problem only 3 people showed up during the second workshop hour) ...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 6 2003, 07:11 PM

Yep; I was just saying that while it will be so, as you said, it currently isn't.

~J

Posted by: Fortune Oct 7 2003, 02:02 AM

My fix for the CED is to limit it to providing access to a character's already existing Pools, up to the level of the chip (or the CED, whichever one is lower). It does not actually provide any Pool (or dice) of it's own.

Posted by: The White Dwarf Oct 7 2003, 02:36 AM

Kag, your example doesnt really prove anything. It shows first that a troll versus a human is imbalanced because it has more body which is exactly what I started. Then it shows that an unmodified guy versus an identical guy with more dice is imbalanced... um duh.

Try this one. Two human sams with body and skill 6 shooting each other with smartlinked pistols, wearing Long Coats and Form Fit. Oh and since theyre sams theve got Dermal Sheath 1 and Plastic Bone Lacing. So you get two guys with body 6 (9) and armor of (6/3). At short range youll get on average 5 success to hit each other, and then an average of 5 successes to resist with body alone. So, combat pool has to be used to avoid damage, at a rate of 6 dice per attack to get the extra 4 successes. If each sam has initiative of 15 thats 4 shots you need to use 6 pool on... the CED lets you soak one extra hit on the theory that it frees up your combat pool. For the cost to implement that is not unbalanced. Its easier to just get more body for the nuyen unless you want skillwires for some other reason.

Social skills, and perhaps some technical skills (again Ive never encountered a situation where you would need more than the 6 dice plus tools to use those to great effect) is it. For computer youd lose access to hacking pool which is a huge no-no. In combat the extra 6 dice make little impact simply because it takes a fair number of dice to dodge or resist any decent hit and the number of actions spreads out the chances for the pool to refresh to the point that it is *ineffecient* to use the CED to gain a combat advantage. Yea, you end up with a few more dice from one point of view, but they by and large do nothing *especially* when you consider the cost to get them.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 7 2003, 05:25 AM

I agree with White Dwarf that the CED's main utility is in technical, B/R, and social skills. In fact, I think its usefulness in combat is even less than the example he gave. Skillwires and a CED take up a lot of Essense - if someone with a CED meets someone without one, I don't think it's that likely that they will have the same Body and initiative. The sammie without the CED will be tougher, faster, or even both.

Posted by: Cochise Oct 7 2003, 09:37 AM

Posted by: The Jopp Oct 7 2003, 10:12 AM

Well, expensive or not, the character becomes VERY flexible as long as he has the skillchip. The character can, theoretically, use ANY weapon existing as long as he has a chip or a jukebox. He can also have a vast knowledge in various fields, language skills etc. Flexible but highly expensive.

The concept "Rich kid playing shadowrunner" would be a stupid and dangerous thing to say since such a character could become a dangerous opponent, until you re-label all the skillchips and replace them with Black Hammer IC BTL chip.

They don't really give a description on different chiptypes but do you think there is a PHYSICAL difference on the chips and is it POSSIBLE to insert a BTL program in a skillchip? Are they like our CD's/Floppy's or is a BTL like a Floppy VS Skillchip is a ZIPdrive disc?

*Looks up* Hmm, that DOES look a bit confusing.

Posted by: Fonitrus Oct 7 2003, 10:50 AM

I have read thru all your responses looking for someone no so oblivious. Have not found one yet.

Can I point you to page 295 in the SR3 (aka BBB for the noobs) under the Skillsofts description, the end of the 2nd Paragraph says "Activesofts replicate Active Skills such as Combat, Physical, Technical or Vehicle Skills"...

I dont see Social skils. Also in above post someone was mentioning Hacking pools and Skillwires...Hmm when jacked in u cannot benefit from skillwires/skillsofts.. while decking i think u use Computer Skill right? to do all the Computer (TEST TN) Tests right? so the taskpool doesnt help at all. Or am I wrong about that?

I do agree that a Skillwired person has alot more advantages than someone without but so do wired reflexes 3 over a boosted 1 person. The diference is ¥ and the all so cruicial essence. First aid only goes so far. Have u ever been injured severely and the medkit didnt help and u r crossing ur fingers and 'praying' to the god of D6s for the mage in the group who is trying to roll 10-Essence to heal your wounded A$$..and fail...next stop Doctor's office and about 500-1000¥ per day to heal u.

I dont know people lose alot of essence trying to munch out on 'usefull' cyber then blame the mage for rolling bad.

I admit I may have 'gone off a tangent' (if thats the proper phrase) but CED can be abused? Yes. ANYTING can. From the standard mage setup of inc. reflexes force 1 (any variation +1,+2,+3) with asustaining foci force 1 that is always on..everywhere, to the ATGM wielders, then to the down dirty ones of muscle replacements +4 and titanium bonelacing then layering armour jackets + long coats...and dont forget the Rapid Transit Line helmet with +2 Impact for 50¥... and yea the forearm guards...so to have overall 6/8 armour in melee without layering penalties and doing STR+4M stun...mucnhkin human 6+muccle replacemtn 4 =10 STR thats 14M stun against impact... eseence u ask..close to zero...
So SMG skill in CED slot and Pistol skill learnt means u have 2 simple actions on which u can use 6+6 dice per simple action (shooting a pistol,and a burst on separate actions)....munchy yes..costly yes...but just as munchy and costly as any other ultimate mucnhkin gear...

So CED can and will be abused by those who only care about the dice. Those who think "if my eseence is 3, mages roll 10-3=7=6 not as bad..." will never abuse the system and pick a rating that they can afford both ¥ wise and essence wise...

Sure skillsofted Car skill of 12 (skill+CED) is way better than normal drivers and may border VCR1 riggers (minus the drone ability) but u can only afford so many skills at once..and its a complex action to change chips (Assuming u cannot afford CED 6 on all 4 slots of the multijack)...

The Jack of All trades with CED 12 becomes close to Master of All trades but as long as doing 1 thing at a time..or not lose the chip...

So why do ppl pick on CEDs and cyber and DO absolutely nothing about the force 1 mages increase reflex mucnhkins. mundanes lose out..spellpools refresh as per pool rules i.e. per combat turn..have u ever seen a mage cast more than 1 spell inside 3 seconds intervals while not in combat. Huh? they always get their nasty pool and with some spells where the victim must match up or succeed successes, then LVL 1 with 12 dice (average 6 successes on cast vs tn3 ) will most probably be enough for willpower 3 people to not stand a chance...so u r comlaining that CEDs break the game. Legwork is mainly based on Social Skills or Decking or maybe Astral Projecting. ALL of these are not affected by skillsofts.

Techical, B/R skill that usually get no task pool? Well even limiting the CED to rating 3 is not helping. Most of the Technical/BR require a KIT/SHOP/FACILITY to be able to even TRY to do any dice tests. Why not have the Task Pool come from the Rating of the Kit/Shop/Facility or maybe the game-designers have a more ingnenious way of getting a natural task pool based maybe on inteligence or something.

I may have not made any points except for the fact that I hate magic and munchkins of all type so judge as you please.

Posted by: Sphynx Oct 7 2003, 11:21 AM

FYI, it says it replaces Active Skills, the 'such as' is a list of examples and not the list of ALL possibilites. Social Skills do fall under Active Skills and as such are accessable via skillsofts. (Though I think it's a common House Rule to prevent the use of Social Skills via Skill Softs).

Personally, we did the exact opposite of Fortune. We don't allow you to use the CED for skills that have pools (Task Pool being the exception). We see the CED as the 'pool giver' for the non-pool skills. If you want a super duper expert electronics/biotech/demolitions type of character, skillsofts is the way to go. Removing those from the list of possible CED softs, removes the biggest potential of the cyberware. It's rarely going to be a matter of balance to have 12 dice for an Electronics roll, but it IS a matter of balance to have Combat Skills used via the CED since you can DIMAP and use Combat Pool for one action, Task pool for another, and still have dice to spare for more actions.

Sphynx

Posted by: Fonitrus Oct 7 2003, 11:36 AM

Posted by: Fonitrus Oct 7 2003, 12:06 PM

Posted by: Sphynx Oct 7 2003, 12:29 PM

If I may quote you above:

"Activesofts replicate Active Skills such as Combat, Physical, Technical or Vehicle Skills"...

Notice, "such as" does exist in your book, it doesn't say: "limited to", "only", etc. Now personally, I agree with you (and our House Rules show that) but it IS a House Rule that you can't Soft a Social Skill. The only limitation by that quote is that it can replicate "Active Skills" and Social skills DO fall under "Active Skills".

As for DIMAP'ping, the expense is only in the upgrade to your skillswires (which can run in the millions). Needing 432 MP to run a 69,120(assuming legal) rating 6 DIMAP 6 soft is where the money is at a huge 1,296,000-OriginalCost

Even if you Optimize it to get the MP down to 216 with a cost of 138,240(assuming legal) for the chip, since most people tend to build their Skillwires with an MP value of 108 at char-gen, cost 648,000-324,000(orignalCost for 6*108*500)

BUT, once the upgrade is there (which can be at Char-Gen even), than considering the cost to raise a skill to 12 vs the cost to buy a skill at 6, the cost is nothing at all. Not like you have to buy one-shot types of softs here.

Sphynx

PS. I'm not argueing that the wires are overpowered, I LIKE them as they are, but if a House Rule is made, I think it should be to remove Combat skills from the CED rather than the Int based skills like Electronics.

PPS. Agreed on Social Skillz when Denver has walls. But it's only a House Rule

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 7 2003, 02:43 PM

While you have some valid points, Fonitrus...

Posted by: Siege Oct 7 2003, 02:51 PM

I'd point out that certain aspects of social interaction can be recorded and thus replayed.

For that matter, entire classes revolve around how to behave and how to walk, how to dress, etc. The nigh-infamous schools of thought that address things like body language, posture, tone of voice, etc.

The idea of chipping social skills isn't that far-fetched.

-Siege

Posted by: BlackSmith Oct 7 2003, 03:41 PM

no it might not be, BUT i would categorice all chipped social skills.
you DON'T talk/act the same way when having businsess with streets or with coporate suit thus if you are "used" to talk certain way because of an chip, you are in trobule when dealign a different social class.
human could adapt and change/reduce his maners and body language to fit to the situtaion.

Posted by: Fonitrus Oct 7 2003, 03:54 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 7 2003, 04:07 PM

Er, yes, it does.
I'm going to go huddle in a corner and cry now.

~J

Posted by: The White Dwarf Oct 7 2003, 06:02 PM

Heh, it never fails. Everytime people talk skillwire abuse (outside of social skills, maybe technical tho I still maintain the "eh more dice" attitude to that) once the cost is calculated it becomes a moot point.

Yes someone could try to carry around a jukebox with 6 gun skills in it as a backup should they need to be flexible mid run. But honestly, how often has this ever come up in your games? Im sure everyone has at least one story that stands out as "that time we had to escape and I took the bad guy's gun and Blam Blam Blam!" but on a regular basis it almost never happens.

Even when it does, most of the time some of the players will have the right skill. Pistols are a common secondary when theyre not the main and most characters tend to have that skill. Even if they dont have the matching gun skill, it wont kill them to just default at a penalty for that scenario and use a little karma if they roll bad, thats what its for.

If someone wants to invest the (significant) nuyen and essence into a skillwire system to cover this enventuality, fine. Its not a common occurance, and it wouldnt be a problem for the few times it happens to have someone get to use the cyberware they spent cash on. The majority of the time they WONT be using it since theyll be using their main skill, making the investment worthless unless they get in a less than ideal situation.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 7 2003, 06:11 PM

I'm not saying that any primary intended uses are by themselves gamebreaking (I was originally but you convinced me otherwise [edit: except social skills and stealth]), I'm just still arguing that the net effect of having all of this available is still unbalanced, IMO.
I still maintain that some of the technical tests have sufficiently long base times that dividing it by six rather than three is a significant difference, Programming tests especially (even if you for whatever reason cannot use skillwires while decking, you certainly should while programming).

~J

[edit2] In my games, though, people are caught with less-than-optimal guns decently frequently. We've had a string that have required the runners to be in public places shortly before a combat.

Posted by: The White Dwarf Oct 7 2003, 08:15 PM

Alright, I can concede that such might be the case in some games. Its "gamebreaking" effect from being available is really only comparable to "what could I get instead" so that could vary from group to group. Same thing with the guns. If we had to be in public in our groups runners would either bag up the rifles and hang at a bus stop for cover, or simply downshift to concealed pistols with the right ammo loads, etc etc. But that all depends on the run and how the GM deals with stuff.