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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Misc. questions and errata

Posted by: Fu-Man Chu Oct 6 2003, 08:39 PM

Just some things I was thinking of as I was perusing my SR books.

1) In SR3 rulebook, under the section that says Recoil on page 111, it gives as an example firing two 5-round full-auto bursts - but as far as I can tell, a full-auto burst is a Complex Action, and as such, only one can be done per Combat Phase.

2) Is there a way to pop up from behind cover, fire off two shots (from say, a SA pistol) and then duck back down? The only thing that seems to fit would be the movement rules, but this isn't really moving across a distance. I guess one could walk pass a corridor, fire twice and move to the other end. But I'm not sure how well this would work.

3) In the SR3 companion (page 78), the Street Cop is listed as having a Firearms skill of 4. This looks like a throwback to SR2 that wasn't changed. I assume that this is supposed to be a Pistol 4 skill. Also, the Gang Leader and a few other templates don't have any gear listed. I haven't seen any errata for these yet. (I noticed these last few as I was working on a random NPC template that runners tend to run into.)

Posted by: Person 404 Oct 6 2003, 08:50 PM

1. As far as I can tell, this is a typo or mistake of some sort.

2. Personally, I treat this as partial cover. SR's combat is turn-based, but being able to move 4 feet in an action doesn't make you invincible. Anytime you stick your head around the corner, you've got a chance of catching a bullet in it.

Posted by: Sphynx Oct 6 2003, 08:51 PM

1) A gun in each hand.

2) Simple Action each to pop/duck.

3) ....

Sphynx

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 6 2003, 09:06 PM

For #1, you can only fire one full-auto shot, but you can have that shot hit multiple targets, so five bullets of the ten-round full-auto shot were aimed at the first target and five at the second.

~J

Posted by: Sphynx Oct 6 2003, 09:15 PM

No, you can fire 2 by using the rules for ambidexterity.

Sphynx

Posted by: Person 404 Oct 6 2003, 10:13 PM

... but considering that the example given doesn't make any reference to the other effects of using dual weapons, and it's in the base book, whereas the ambidex rules are in the CC, it's pretty safe to assume this is a mistake.

Posted by: BitBasher Oct 6 2003, 10:18 PM

Not really, you can fire full auto and spli the rounds between 2 targets, hitting each target with a 5 round long burst, perfectly legal. Just like you could fire full auto and shoot 4 people... with a three round burst at each of the first 3 targets and the one remaining bullet onto the 4th target.

Posted by: Fu-Man Chu Oct 7 2003, 01:57 AM

QUOTE (BitBasher)

QUOTE

But then it would seem like you could say, "oh, my character is firing 5 - 2 round bursts which have seperate rolls for each with recoil of +2 for the first, +4 for the second" etc, instead of one skill check with a recoil mod of howevermany bullets are fired. . . That doesn't seem to jive with the SR rules. . .

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 7 2003, 02:36 AM

QUOTE

But then it would seem like you could say, "oh, my character is firing 5 - 2 round bursts which have seperate rolls for each with recoil of +2 for the first, +4 for the second" etc,

This is correct. You have to divide up Combat Pool between all targets and add the +2 target modifier for new target.

Also, you have to step the gun fire across gaps between targets (one bullet for every meter) unless they have Smartgun and link.

Twist has an assault rifle (3 points RC) he is using to hose the 4 approaching ghouls on full auto. He has a skill of 6 and 8 combat pool. The ghouls have no cover, but darkness modifiers apply (+2 lowlight) which is offset by his smartgun link (-2). He decides to use all ten shots, putting four bullets into the first ghoul, three into the second, two into the third, and one into the last. The ghouls are at short range.

Rolling for the first ghouls, Twist uses three combat pool and needs to hit a target number 5 (4+2-2+4-3=5). He gets 6 successes (02 11 11 05 01 07 07 08 03). The ghoul must resist a damage of 12S (8M+4) after dodge. Note, the ghoul has a plus 1 TN to dodge.

Going for the second ghoul he needs 10's (4+2-2+7-3+2=10) and uses 2 combat pool. He gets 1 success (03 04 11 03 04 05 03 01). The ghoul must resist a damage of 11S (8M+3) after dodge. Note, the ghoul has a plus 1 TN to dodge.

Going for the third ghoul he needs 14's (4+2-2+9-3+2+2=14) and uses 2 combat pool. He gets 1 success (15 11 10 04 09 05 03 03). The ghoul must resist a damage of 10M (8M+2) after dodge.

Going for the final ghoul he needs 17's (4+2-2+10-3+2+2+2=17) and uses 1 last combat pool. He gets no success (01 05 10 05 05 04 02).

Somebody check me, please.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 7 2003, 02:38 AM

Read page 115 of the main book.

Posted by: The White Dwarf Oct 7 2003, 05:53 AM

Assuming Kanada added right hes correct. While you can only fire a single Full Auto attack for your complex action, you can divide the bullets amonst multiple targets. His example is sound. And for clarity yes, with ambidexterity you could fire two SMGs on full auto for one complex action.

For the second, you could fire twice as a simple action each, then drop prone with your free action. The catch is next turn you would have to get up with a simple action, then fire only one shot, and fall prone again to repeat the cycle. Its far better to use the partial cover rules and simply say that anyone firing from cover, peeking out and ducking back etc, is at +4 tn to shoot at for being in partial cover.

For number three, yea firearms is a typo. Just replace it with whatever gun skill is appropriate (pistols, shotguns, etc). The characters without gear are fine as is. The little "contact template" listings only give basic or needed gear in their listings, as a full gear list for each kind would take up far too much space. So they give a few gear hints occasionally and leave the rest up to "whatever the GM deems appropriate at the time".

Posted by: DigitalMage Oct 7 2003, 10:22 AM

In terms of 2)
You could handle this as movement and up the penalty to fire based on the movement modifier. Or you could use the Attacker in Cover penalties from CC p98 (basically whatever cover you receive when being shot at is applied at half rating to your own TN to attack, e.g. +4 cover protection adds +2 to TNs to attack from behind it).

The more cover you are in, the harder it is to shoot from behind it

Posted by: Synner Oct 7 2003, 04:09 PM

Regarding number 2, technically movement in SR takes a whole action meaning if you across a corridor your movement will only be concluded at your next action phase. Or if you pop up, you only pop down completely at the beginning of your next action. Consequently cover should be calculated on the basis of the average cover you during the movement (ie. starting in full cover, diving across an empty corridor and landing in full cover would average at Partial Cover or +4)

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 7 2003, 04:22 PM

I like the CC rules for cover with the notion that it's not just a "percent of the body covered", but a "percent of the body covered as a function of time". So someone who is popping up slowly gets a pretty decent shot (+1 TN to fire) but less cover benefit (+2 TN to be hit) while someone who is doing really fast popups sacrifices accuracy (+3 TN to fire) for better protection (+6 TN to be hit).

Posted by: Fu-Man Chu Oct 7 2003, 08:09 PM

QUOTE (TinkerGnome)

QUOTE

Hmm, I really like the idea of cover as a function of time -- that makes a lot of sense.

Going back to the Full-auto weapon, thanks for explaining it Kaneda - but couldn't a PC just say they wanted to do the same thing except that each of the 4, 3, 2, and 1 bullet "bursts" are going at the same target (instead of multiple targets), thus they get to roll their entire skill dice 4 times, and with better TN than a straight full auto 10-round burst at one target?

Posted by: El_Machinae Oct 8 2003, 02:30 PM

QUOTE (Fu-Man Chu)

but couldn't a PC just say they wanted to do the same thing except that each of the 4, 3, 2, and 1 bullet "bursts" are going at the same target (instead of multiple targets), thus they get to roll their entire skill dice 4 times, and with better TN than a straight full auto 10-round burst at one target?

My storyteller held his head when I asked this. I was totally being tactical at the time, and this was a desperate "Trick" I'd been saving until things got hairy. Forcing an opponent to save vs. numerous mid-power shots sometimes is better than saving vs. a single high-power shot ... especially when the high-power shot has no chance to hit!

He held his head and sighed. Then he let me roll the dice. I never tried it again.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 8 2003, 04:30 PM

I wouldn't allow it simply because that's the definition of a burst, IMO; the bullets being directed at a single target. Otherwise the optimal solution would be, unless the target is capable of completely soaking all damage with body alone, firing those ten shots as ten one-round bursts. No one would do anything differently, and since I think FASA had thought of that they probably designed the rules the way they are because the other way was forbidden.

~J

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 8 2003, 06:46 PM

Waste two bullets to "walk" the fire away and then back twice. 3,3,2 instead of the normal 10. Less of a rule abuse than the 4,3,2,1 so it would be easier to con a GM into accepting.

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Oct 8 2003, 09:06 PM

QUOTE (Fu-Man Chu)

Going back to the Full-auto weapon, thanks for explaining it Kaneda - but couldn't a PC just say they wanted to do the same thing except that each of the 4, 3, 2, and 1 bullet "bursts" are going at the same target (instead of multiple targets), thus they get to roll their entire skill dice 4 times, and with better TN than a straight full auto 10-round burst at one target?

If you look through the decking rules, you'll see the same pattern for programming.

It's faster and easier to program lvl 2, lvl 3, lvl 4, lvl 5, and lvl 6 versions of a program, than it is to program only the lvl 6 version.

You could probably find it lurking in other iterative TN modifier tests throughout the system.

It's one of the two major flaws in the game's mechanics. (the other being the 'missing' TNs 7/13/etc.)

Posted by: Large Mike Oct 8 2003, 11:40 PM

The ganger does have gear. All the missing info for the stock characters starts on pg. 326 of SR3.

Posted by: kevyn668 Oct 9 2003, 07:09 PM

question 2) your PC could stand up (simple action), fire 2 SA rounds (simple action), and then fall down (free action).

I'm pretty sure I read that on this board somewhere but can't remember who said it or in which thread.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 9 2003, 07:19 PM

QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Oct 9 2003, 03:09 PM)

question 2) your PC could stand up (simple action), fire 2 SA rounds (simple action), and then fall down (free action).

SA is one shot per simple action, though you can fire twice in a combat phase (as opposed to single shot). As for the rest... while you can technically do it, to prevent combats from becoming idiot fests with everyone standing and dropping behind cover, I like my interpretation of "cover as a function of time".

If you stand up and drop down behind cover three times in a three second turn, you're exposed to fire quite a bit.

[edit]I mean, idiot fests where everyone stands up, fires, drops prone and gets total cover behind a barrier when fire is returned. Of course, even if you're in a game that allows that, you'd better be going first, because otherwise you're going to get shot when you pop up.[/edit]

Posted by: BitBasher Oct 9 2003, 07:27 PM

You're off a bit, standing is a simple action, and firinf ONE shot is a simple action. Firing 2 SA shots is two simple action not one, for a total of three simple actions you used.