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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Submitting to Fan Pro

Posted by: 252 Oct 7 2003, 12:49 AM

I was reading on the website: http://www.shadowrunrpg.com, that they call for proposals, so how does someone get to get notified about this stuff.

Just wondering, I would doubt that I would be ever considered. However I would still like to at least try once. So I would love information and I know a few of you guys are in the know so please help me out.

Posted by: Adam Oct 7 2003, 12:50 AM

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. If you want to submit a proposal, you submit one following the instructions given in the submission guidelines, and Rob will get in touch with you in due time.

Posted by: KosherPickle Oct 7 2003, 12:57 AM

QUOTE (Adam)

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking.

Well, the site pretty much says that from time to time, calls for submissions are held.
"Do not begin to write until we ask you to."

And it seems to discourage random submissions.
"Never send us an unsolicited, complete or partially complete manuscript. The manuscript will be returned to you regardless of the legal permission or disclaimers you provide with it."

So, the question is, when do you people want submissions?

Posted by: Adam Oct 7 2003, 01:02 AM

The submission guidelines talk about proposals, which is what everyone sends first to Rob when they have an idea for a product or know of a product they want to work on.

Typically, if Rob likes your proposal, even if he doesn't use it, he'll keep you appraised of future projects that require writers and ask you to submit proposals for them.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 7 2003, 01:08 AM

QUOTE

The Proposal
A full proposal runs in length from 5 to 7 pages and contains four parts:

A Detailed Outline. Use the Table of Contents in the latest Shadowrun book as a guide to creating your outline. The outline helps us to determine your ability to synthesize and organize your ideas.
Each outline entry should also explain what the content of that section will be. Please indicate clearly with a few sentences what material will be included in each section, do not just list the subject headers. An outline also allows us to see that you have thought your proposal through to the end.

A Written Summary. Use the summary to flesh out and highlight specific sections and special events in your outline. The summary should explain how the material ties into old plot lines and what new plots it will generate. This summary allows us to determine if you have a good understanding of your ideas and of the game universe. This also shows us your ability to write clearly and succinctly.
For fiction, the summary should also include details on what "voices" will be used-in other words, what the perspectives of the fictional authors will be.

Finally, the fun part. Sell us on your proposal. Tell us why your proposal is important to the game line. Explain the need it's filling, and the importance of filling that need. Assume that others are proposing the same thing and tell us why your version is better.

You should also include a Writing Sample of approximately 1,000-2,000 words. This can be an excerpt from writing you have previously done, or it can be a selected part of your proposal fleshed out. The sample does not have to relate to Shadowrun-it can be a story or article you wrote about something else. It should, however, be an appropriate example of your ability to write (science) fiction and/or game rules. Do not send lengthy samples, keep it to 2,000 words or less.

Obviously, these parts can be combined in any order. Please be creative with your proposal, and be professional. Remember that you are asking us to hire you, so make sure you treat your proposal and your writing with care.

Posted by: Adam Oct 7 2003, 01:15 AM

What's the question? That's exactly what you should submit to Rob.

Posted by: Arcanum V Oct 7 2003, 01:17 AM

QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

Obviously, these parts can be combined in any order. Please be creative with your proposal, and be professional. Remember that you are asking us to hire you, so make sure you treat your proposal and your writing with care.

In other words, do not make the punctuation error that occurs in this sentence:

QUOTE

Please indicate clearly with a few sentences what material will be included in each section, do not just list the subject headers.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 7 2003, 01:21 AM

QUOTE

Adam
What's the question?

I have no question here, fiery one.

I think others were confused as to the difference between submission and proposal.

Posted by: 252 Oct 7 2003, 01:21 AM

Okay I know that is what is suppose to be proposed, and that's the way that it is to be presented.

I got confused by the:

[Quote]
Well, the site pretty much says that from time to time, calls for submissions are held.
"Do not begin to write until we ask you to."

And it seems to discourage random submissions.
"Never send us an unsolicited, complete or partially complete manuscript. The manuscript will be returned to you regardless of the legal permission or disclaimers you provide with it."
[Quote\]

Which I thought meant don't give unless we say. And I don't want to annoy someone that I potential want to be on the good side of.

All sourcebooks are done by multiple people so if the proposal would be accepted how does the sections splitting part generally work? Does FanPro ask its Free Lancers for help or what?

Posted by: Adam Oct 7 2003, 01:34 AM

QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

QUOTE

Adam
What's the question?

I have no question here, fiery one.

I think others were confused as to the difference between submission and proposal.

And that's exactly what I thought you were confused by.

Posted by: Adam Oct 7 2003, 01:37 AM

QUOTE (252)

All sourcebooks are done by multiple people so if the proposal would be accepted how does the sections splitting part generally work? Does FanPro ask its Free Lancers for help or what?

Not all sourcebooks are done by multiple authors, but very few are trusted to write an entire book on their own. If FanPro accepted the proposal and put the book on the production schedule, they would most likely ask other freelancers for input, and then do a second round of proposals -- more or less how it happened with the EuroSB crew. They submitted a huge proposal for the book, Rob talked to other people about the book, cemented down some ideas, then asked everyone [including the EuroSB crew and other freelancers] to re-submit proposals for the specific sections they wanted.

Posted by: 252 Oct 7 2003, 01:44 AM

So what you guys are telling me is I can make a proposal, but not a submission?

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 7 2003, 01:48 AM

QUOTE

So what you guys are telling me is I can make a proposal, but not a submission?

Right. See, they don't want you to get this massive body of work poured from your soul only to say, er change it all around and have you cry and slit your wrists.

If you'd rather just write as things come to you, start a net book, live journal, or just make a thread here. If it turns into something, you can go back and make a proposal for it to send to FanPro.

Posted by: Arcanum V Oct 7 2003, 01:53 AM

QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

If you'd rather just write as things come to you, start a net book, live journal, or just make a thread here. If it turns into something, you can go back and make a proposal for it to send to FanPro.

Putting your diamond-in-the-rough idea on the Internet is not a good idea if you expect it to get published for pay somewhere down the road. If your words and ideas are already in print (or pixel) in a public way, this raises some legal issues that are easier to avoid by just not publishing the material than they are to work through.

QUOTE

So what you guys are telling me is I can make a proposal, but not a submission?

No, because a proposal is a form of a submission. You submit your proposal, and if they like it, it gets to become an adventure, sourcebook, or novel. What you should not do is write the adventure, sourcebook, or novel and then send it in.

Posted by: Adam Oct 7 2003, 01:54 AM

QUOTE (252)

So what you guys are telling me is I can make a proposal, but not a submission?

You make a proposal. If Rob goes "Cool! Write it!", you write it.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 7 2003, 02:03 AM

QUOTE

Arcanum V
Putting your diamond-in-the-rough idea on the Internet is not a good idea if you expect it to get published for pay somewhere down the road.

I though this is what happened with the EuroSB which is now a printed book called Shadows of Europe. Am I wrong?

Posted by: Adam Oct 7 2003, 02:05 AM

Most of the EuroSB was only distributed to members of the project.

Posted by: Arcanum V Oct 7 2003, 02:06 AM

QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Oct 6 2003, 09:03 PM)

I though this is what happened with the EuroSB which is now a printed book called Shadows of Europe. Am I wrong?

How much of the actual final text of SoE was created in the Forums? I recall that it was discussed in the abstract ("Wouldn't it be cool of the European players wrote a book?") and then moved into some kind of more tightly controlled environment, like a password-protected part of DS or a Yahoo board or something. The real drafting took place off-board.

[Edit] Or Adam could just answer with the same thing in fewer words.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 7 2003, 02:13 AM

I see. Thanks for the heads up.

So put the submission manuscript in a file, encrypted, with Cascading Scramble IC and Databombs.

Posted by: Adhoc Oct 7 2003, 09:58 AM

QUOTE (Arcanum V @ Oct 7 2003, 02:06 AM)

QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Oct 6 2003, 09:03 PM)

I though this is what happened with the EuroSB which is now a printed book called Shadows of Europe. Am I wrong?

None of the text for Shadows Of Europe was created on the forums; what happened was that some of the ideas was thrown around in here. After a while it was taken to a "secure" yahoo-group and debated through; a lot of brainstorming took place there; we were also very focused on tying the different countries together; plot- and setting-wise.

We created a proposal (with writing samples) where all us made our own little bit, so in essence we made a proposal for all of Europe. Rob accepted it and we then made the draft. During this process other freelancers was recruited, where the original contributor had fallen by the wayside or where something had to be covered that and nobody had said they'd do it.

The rest is as they say...editing....

Adhoc

Posted by: lorg Oct 7 2003, 10:03 AM

a lot of editing ... but it should be done "soon", any day now :)
atleast that is the last i heard .... lets just hope we recognize it when it is done.

Posted by: Abstruse Oct 7 2003, 10:22 AM

The main reason that FanPro (or any publishing company and most TV networks and studios) don't want your manuscript isn't some caring and nurturing attitude about unduely wasting your time, it falls down to two things. 1) You write your full manuscript and send in your proposal. They accept it, and for your first draft you send in your already-completed manuscript. However, you haven't shown you can meet a deadline. You could've spent the last four years on that manuscript and when they want a second draft, you only have two months to write it in. So basically, you're screwed because you can't write that fast.

Here's the big number two reason, and basically THE reason why: LEGAL ISSUES. When you submit an unsolicited manuscript (that's any manuscript you weren't hired to write), you're basically sending them your intellectual property with no legal guarantees for them. Let's say you send in your manuscript and they read it. It just so happens that your proposal was very similar to Running Wild for example. Now FanPro is in a legal bind because if they release their Running Wild, you can sue them for plagerism. They have no way to prove they had this project in the works before you submitted it unless they announced it (which FanPro probably has about 20 or so projects in line waiting for their turn to get approved that we know nothing about because they may never see the light of day). Unless they state clearly that unsolicited manuscripts are discarded without being read (as FanPro states in their submission guidelines), they have no legal way to protect themselves because it's basically your word against theirs, you'll probably have proof you sent your script to them (if you were smart and sent it registered mail or at least return receipt, which you should always do when submitting proposals BTW to make sure they got it). FanPro will most likely win said lawsuit, but it will cost them loads in legal fees they could've simply avoided by not accepting unsolicited manuscripts.

Basically, if you want to get published, here are the rules. BE PROFESSIONAL! Don't geek out in your proposal too much. Let them know you like the product and are knowledgable about it, but don't go off saying how much you love Harlequin and have sexual fantasies about Nadja Daviar. This also covers things like calling or emailing Rob every four days asking if he's read your proposal yet. WRITE WELL! If you can't string two words together, no matter how good your idea is, you won't sell it. And for god's sake SPELLCHECK!! I'm not kidding about this! Nothing screams "unprofessional" more than misspellings, since it's incredibly easy in this day and age to avoid those errors. Oh, and don't do stuff like "u" for "you" or "could of" instead of "could've".

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Synner Oct 7 2003, 11:25 AM

95% of the EuroSB development was carried out on a restricted Yahoogroup, to which only the actual contributors/writers had access. We did originally discuss a lot of stuff on Dumpshock (and Deep Resonance before it) but as soon as it became clear that we were going for a submission rather than a netbook everything was pulled into the group. Not that the original discussions would have help much. I still get a shock at some of the differences between our original pitch and the final thing.

Regarding the submission process: I've recently been asked about this by a number of people. The EuroSB route is atypical in that we put together a huge collective submission, but other than that we followed the guidelines on the official site. We sent in proposals (as outlined in the guidelines) for the various countries and I added a cover letter proposing the actual "SoE" book. Rob told us he was interested but all that he'd guarantee was that we'd get to pitch when the project came up in the Development schedule - on even ground with the regular freelancers. A whole year later Rob asked for our proposals (which in a couple of cases no longer bore any resemblance to the originals) as well as proposals from any freelancers who were interested. Most EuroSbers made it into the final project but Pistons, Steve Kenson, Jon Szeto, Gurth and Rob himself also contributed.

What I can tell you is that submitting a full manuscript/draft (rather than what the guidelines tell you to) is a serious mistake for a number of reasons. All you need is for the Developer to say, "well I like all the ideas but I'd prefer it if you used another Voice for the piece" and you have to rewrite the whole thing from scratch.

Posted by: White Knight Oct 7 2003, 09:08 PM

QUOTE (252 @ Oct 7 2003, 01:21 AM)

All sourcebooks are done by multiple people so if the proposal would be accepted how does the sections splitting part generally work? Does FanPro ask its Free Lancers for help or what?

I too am curious how this business actually works.

To get noticed in the first place do you write a proposal for a whole book or just a section? A book may seem presumptive, especially as it will be 'taken away' from you if it actually goes into development, but a single section may not seem to be enough and what would you do a section of in the first place?

If you have an idea for a book that you know is coming up could you submit for that or is it already too late by the time it's announced? Does a submission have to be relevant or could you submit just to get your writing noticed?

(I recall someone submitting something that was rejected as the concept didn't fit with their current projects but he was kept on a list of possible contributors because they liked his idea/writing style. How common would that be? Is submitting anything in order to get noticed, to write something in the future largely unconnected with your original submission, a valid practice?!)

So, how big, complete and relevant should a submission be?

Posted by: Adam Oct 7 2003, 09:28 PM

QUOTE

To get noticed in the first place do you write a proposal for a whole book or just a section? A book may seem presumptive, especially as it will be 'taken away' from you if it actually goes into development, but a single section may not seem to be enough and what would you do a section of in the first place?

Given that there are multiple books coming out that have short relatively independant sections - the State of the Art books, all of the Shadows of books, most of the Target books, etc, sending a proposal for just one section makes a lot of sense.

QUOTE

If you have an idea for a book that you know is coming up could you submit for that or is it already too late by the time it's announced? Does a submission have to be relevant or could you submit just to get your writing noticed?

It depends on the book - it doesn't hurt to enquire, and not necessarily; a submission could just show off your ideas in general, writing and organizational skills, etc.

QUOTE

So, how big, complete and relevant should a submission be?

Size, structure, and suchlike are covered in the http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/fanpro/writers_guidelines.shtml

Posted by: Dogsoup Oct 8 2003, 01:15 AM

QUOTE (Abstruse)

...but don't go off saying how much you love Harlequin and have sexual fantasies about Nadja Daviar.

Damn! Is there an "undo" button in my Hotmail account?

Posted by: Pistons Oct 8 2003, 01:07 PM

Adam took care of most of the answering. You could also submit an adventure, following the structure set out in books like Missions, Survival of the Fittest or Corporate Punishment (for example). That's one of the best ways to show that you can do lengthier pieces (adventures tend to run from 13,000-18,000 words, whereas pieces for SoNA and SoE ran from 7,000-12,000), that you can organize your work logically (and there's a structure in place to help you, even), and that you can write.