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Posted by: mintcar Apr 6 2006, 08:01 PM

http://features.teamxbox.com/xbox/1464/Most-Wanted-Unannounced-Xbox-360-Games/p1/

I decided to start a new topic with this tiny bit of new info, mainly because we only have one topic about the Xbox game and it's nine pages long.

What do you know? Seems the franchise has some wide pull still. It'll at least have the big videogame sites waiting impatiently as far as I can tell. Not just from this article.

<edit> I might have been lying in the title. It doesn't really say there's been a vote. This here site is just claiming the game is among the most anticipated, and has placed it on the first page of the article. Guess I just had to go the route of sleazy journalism and make a half-truth headline to inhance the significance of my find. But I did it because I want to believe there's a huge interest out there!

Posted by: Kagetenshi Apr 6 2006, 08:07 PM

Only three pages!

~J

Posted by: mintcar Apr 6 2006, 08:09 PM

Suppose it depends on your settings.

Posted by: Mr.Platinum Apr 6 2006, 11:20 PM

Yeah, I'm a little excited.

Posted by: bustedkarma Apr 6 2006, 11:29 PM

I'm equal parts excited and terrified.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Apr 7 2006, 07:00 AM

Hey, I just went and tried out Crimson Skies for X Box. I was a big surprised that Crimson Skies was turned out by Microsoft before Shadowrun, because I thought that Shadowrun was a more popular franchise. Perhaps they thought Crimson Skies would have more general appeal.

The Microsoft Crimson Skies game was a pretty decent game. I thought that it was pretty, that it had reasonable dialogue for a video game, and the engine was easy to learn. I'm not really into flight sims as much as I am FPS games, though, so I don't know if I'll play it anymore. But I think that Microsoft did a decent job of making a game version of Crimson Skies, so on that count I feel reassured.

Did Crimson Skies the X Box game have anything to do with the pen and paper RPG? I never played the pen and paper game so I have no idea. However, I'd guess that in any case the video game could be a nice introduction to a pen and paper RPG, since the video game had specific manuvers for dogfights, lots of different planes with different characteristics, and lots of plane upgrades. That all feels like stuff that is probably in the pen and paper version in more detail.

I dunno. All in all if Microsoft does a decent job like it did with Crimson Skies SR would probably be just fine.

Posted by: mintcar Apr 7 2006, 08:58 AM

They say two things in this article that I never heard before (and that is propably not worth a damn, but still). They say that you can only play as a street samurai, and that the game will be out by the same time as PS3 to trumf Sony. That's by next holliday season. I don't buy it though. The release estimate seems very unrealistic as the game has not yet been announced, and limiting the player to the street sam seems just stupid. If they do, it's propable that they do something like what they did in the SNES game; and make the street sam able to do both hacking and magic too, as the game progresses.

Posted by: emo samurai Apr 7 2006, 03:48 PM

Do you think it'll be a sort of urban System Shock, or Deus Ex? Because Shadowrun, in play, is nothing like Quake with upgrades. And if it's like System Shock, then why can't you play with mages or hackers? And if it's Quake with upgrades, why the hell would they use SR?

Posted by: mintcar Apr 7 2006, 04:57 PM

It's a mystery for sure

Posted by: Adam Apr 7 2006, 05:23 PM

Posted by: bustedkarma Apr 7 2006, 05:24 PM

I'm still preaching the NEED for a Shadowrun MMO.....

and since MSFT just ABSORBED Lionhead Studios, I am having wet dreams about Peter Molyneaux (sp?) developing it as his first venture into the MMO Arena.

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 7 2006, 07:06 PM

Posted by: KarmaInferno Apr 7 2006, 08:16 PM

Posted by: mintcar Apr 7 2006, 08:35 PM

I play WOW now and then, and I enjoy it. I like being in a living breathing world with other people, killing monsters and having casual conversation with the few people you find with half a brain. But it's not roleplaying, and a lot of people in there are stupid. WOW works because it's not serious in any way. You're not expecting anyone to act like anything other than the pubertal jerks most of them are. I would proplably not be able to resist a Shadowrun mmorpg, but it would without a doubt taint my image of the setting so that I could never again take it seriously.

Posted by: bustedkarma Apr 7 2006, 08:39 PM

Good points Mint and Karma.

Posted by: ronin3338 Apr 7 2006, 10:42 PM

SR is supposed to be a first person shooter, in which case, I'm completely out. Why can't they make it a multi-player co-op like Baldur's Gate or Champions of Norrath? Those engines work just fine, and allow for magic, melee and ranged combat. FPSs's's's (whew!) are generally pretty weak at the RP aspect of an RPG.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Apr 9 2006, 10:30 PM

Posted by: emo samurai Apr 9 2006, 10:40 PM

Maybe they'll show the gun in the middle of the screen and you'll line up the sight like real life. How accurate the sight is and how much your gun shakes will be based on your weapons skill. Smartlink will maybe do more than just put a reticle on the screen; maybe it'll adjust your targeting for distance, speed, and possibly even give you some auto-aim, while smartlinked grenades will be remote-triggered by DNI. Which will, of course, require about 80 years of programming to get down.

Posted by: blakkie Apr 9 2006, 10:53 PM

Posted by: blakkie Apr 9 2006, 10:57 PM

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Apr 9 2006, 11:44 PM

Posted by: nezumi Apr 10 2006, 02:24 PM

Posted by: Voran Apr 10 2006, 10:01 PM

I'm interested to see how Bethesda handles Fallout 3. Elder scrolls 4 oblivion is running really well for me out the gate, which gives me some hope they can pull off fallout 3. For SR, it's hard to say, Deus Ex was nice, Deus Ex 2 gave me headaches. Dumbed down interface, smaller feeling levels instead of the feel from the original, EXTREME lack of modability. Check the sites of DX 1 versus the mod sites for DX2. DX1 is still a viable game you could make adjustments and mod changes to, DX2 had a higher resolution mod (fan made I believe, cause the default res sucked for PC) and that's about it.

The game mechanics of SR are what I'm afraid wouldn't translate as well into a computer game. How do you stay true to the feel of the rules? While stuff like Kotor and Neverwinter Nights were cool games, they also weren't really true to the game systems they came from. Great fun, but lost something because they had to make adjustments to be a playable crpg.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Apr 10 2006, 10:56 PM

Posted by: bustedkarma Apr 10 2006, 11:54 PM

Posted by: Voran Apr 11 2006, 01:40 AM

Posted by: emo samurai Apr 21 2006, 01:22 AM

Dude, I have a great idea for the game. The final boss should be a section of the Blood Mage Gestalt; while you're killing blood mages and sacrifices before they can be knifed, the Gestalt will be bombarding you with bigass spells.

Posted by: Unrest Apr 21 2006, 03:49 AM

Personally if they were going to this I would be happy with an updated version of the Genesis game. Anyone ever play that game? It was decent for its time and I still run it every now and then just for fun. If they updated the graphics engine, and added more run types and job classes I would be in line to pick it up.

Posted by: emo samurai Apr 21 2006, 03:52 AM

Yeah, me too. And no crap about Harlequin being serious and stuff. There should be something at the end where they stop the Blood Mage Gestalt from doing something bad; there has to be a Big Bad at the end, and you can't get that without having them fight Lofwyr. You could prevent Lofwyr from doing something bad (??), but he wouldn't do anything world-shattering himself; he's not into being a magical threat, only a corporate one. And you can't kill him; he can't die outside of an edition-spanning book like System Failure. The end has to make the player be a hero, so the last boss could be... holy shit, WINTERNIGHT! But they've already been taken care of by the corporations, which was lame. Maybe some other freaky apocalypse cult. And you could have them do a bunch of quests inside the run-down Arc.

You see, that's the problem with heroism in Shadowrun. The big bads are all corporations, but they're evil in a much more nebulous and ambiguous sense than Garthganar Archetypal Dark Sorceror of Darkness. The only equivalent of Garthganar Archetypal Dark Sorceror of Darkness is the Blood Mage Gestalt, and unlike insect and toxic shamans, they're supported by a megacorporation. Which is why they'd be the perfect big bads, because really, they're the only big bads.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Apr 21 2006, 04:15 AM

I don't think a Shadowrun game needs a big bad guy. In fact, that sort of defeats the point of SR4.

Posted by: emo samurai Apr 21 2006, 04:17 AM

But... but the Sega game did!!! And pretty much every video game does; I'm sure it would be a huge departure if it didn't. Then again, it could sort of be like Morrowind in its openendedness; that would rock so hard. Yay not fighting for the greater good!

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 21 2006, 05:02 AM

It should feature an evil corpration as the big bad guy and strings of runs designed to ruin that corporation. along the way you'll probably have to meet some bosses, because that's the way video games these days work.

Perhaps the last "boss" could be the cyberzombie gaurding resource X that you need. But instead of ending it there you have to take resource X to location Y and use it for nefarious plan Z, totally ruining the corporation financially.

Posted by: emo samurai Apr 21 2006, 05:04 AM

And if it ends with a run on Aztechnology, that would be the most un-archetypal ending for a Shadowrun adventure ever. It starts in the streets, it ends in the streets.

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 21 2006, 05:09 AM

Ah, but it wouldn't be a shadowrun adventure, it would be a string of shadowrun adventures tied into a single campaign.

Posted by: emo samurai Apr 21 2006, 05:12 AM

Hmm... but I always thought that the last boss fight should take place in an area that just embodied everything about the setting. You fight the lasts boss in Eternal Darkness at a summoning gate; you fight Ares the God of War in Hades; you fight Ganon in the castle after going through a dungeon made up from themes drawn from previous dungeons. A jungle and a pyramid have nothing to do with the rest of Shadowrun. Unless the Blood Mage Gestalt had a part in the Seattle skyscraper; then that could be done quite well.

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 21 2006, 05:16 AM

It doesn't have to be Aztechnology. There are plenty of evil corporations in Shadowrun. Almost all of the biggies can fit that bill one way or another. Aztechnology just happens to be the one that springs to mind first because of their blood magic.

And the runs would never have to go near the home office. You could probably ruin a corporation without ever getting within 10 miles of their president's offices.

Whatever it is, it should mesh with SR canon and be adopted into the setting. Assuming it is something that fits of course.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Apr 21 2006, 05:16 AM

Posted by: emo samurai Apr 21 2006, 05:19 AM

But they're a huge departure from the "glistening towers of glass, steel, and doom looming over dirty, cramped streets" aesthetic of Shadowrun. The last boss shouldn't be that, and no corporation except Aztechnology would do something unprofitable like bringing about the apocalypse.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Apr 21 2006, 05:26 AM

Posted by: emo samurai Apr 21 2006, 05:31 AM

I was thinking of that; it would be kind of like the original Diablo, where there'd be one multi-leveled dungeon that you could get out of at various levels. Like, every 10 or so levels, there'd be a place to get airlifted in or something.

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 21 2006, 05:45 AM

Please don't put it in the arcology. Give a bunch of non-Sr playing game designers the premise "magic, technology, and trapped by an AI in a big building" and all we'll get is Doom IV.

Posted by: Voran Apr 21 2006, 08:15 AM

Posted by: Kanada Ten Apr 21 2006, 12:34 PM

I think you're missing the word "end" in there, not "take place". But like System Shock without all the missing people, and linearness.

Posted by: emo samurai Apr 21 2006, 07:29 PM

That would suck. Screw the Arc; make the game Morrowind, but with more guarded sites and fewer opportunities for sponsorship.

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 21 2006, 07:54 PM

An elder scrolls setup could be nice, open ended runs available with there still being a way to find and participate in a larger campaign type situation.

Posted by: emo samurai Apr 21 2006, 07:56 PM

Yeah, and with AR, that would just make everything that much more rich. It would really highlight the awesomeness of the system, and if it captures the whole social fabric of the game world, then that'll make people buy books.

Posted by: mintcar Apr 22 2006, 01:08 AM

One thing previous SR video games have done well is to portray the originality of the Shadowrun game world. People who never heard of the pen and paper game remember the atmosphere with fondness. And fan of SR who played the video games could see that this was made by people who knew the material well. FASA did become a video game developer, and so we have no reason to believe that the game will be developed by people clueless about Shadowrun.

But we should remember that it's FASA making this game, not Fanpro. This will no doubt be set in the SR2 setting, not SR4.

Posted by: cx2 Apr 22 2006, 02:41 AM

A few ideas:

MMO:
try
www.awakenedworlds.net
only a mud, but good class system (no classes per se, you just pick cyber and if you have magic... obviously tradition too, but that's not hard)

Combat equipment:
Airburst link:
Gives you proximity detonation grenades instead of timed
Vision Mag:
Gives zoom, along with any scopes or binoculars obviously
Vision enhancement:
When activated it highlights objects with an outline, higher level would highlight more objects

Platform:
For heaven's sake, I'm sick of companies making console only games. They'd sell more copies of the game if they made it cross platform (I'm going nowhere near a console no matter what)

Implementation:
Would be nice if they made an outdoor model for Seattle, with dynamic run generation to some extent... so you get random runs with a mixture of set ones. A "free" mode would be nice too, where you give up the plot and just work for nuyen (persistent server option maybe?)

Matrix:
Maybe show the matrix as if it were the normal world, but with a toolbar for things like "attack" and other utilities. Allow some to be targetted, and show your icon (a choice would be nice) to move to an appropriate location (preferably in a non-natural way to emphasise the virtual nature) when performing actions but otherwise static in the node.

AR and astral perception:
Overliad on the normal view naturally, maybe tinted to show their non-physical nature. Toolbar again for AR, and spell selection for astral. Astral could projection could be the same as normal movement, but moving faster and with a time limit... obviously disabling non-mana based spells (this would allow for astral recon).

Here's hoping.

Posted by: Platinum Apr 22 2006, 10:54 PM

I want to see an RTS something like syndicate, where you run a megacorp, it would be part political, etc. You would have gangs, mafia. you can use wired reflexes, smartlink and various cyberware as upgrades. I think it would make a great mod.

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 22 2006, 11:24 PM

Please don't make it an MMO. Shadowruns require groups to pull off, and I generally don't have the schedule that lets me find a regular group of people to play online with. I'd much rather have it work as a party game along the lines of Might and Magic: control one character at a time witht he rest on AI modes until you switch to them.

Posted by: mintcar Apr 23 2006, 12:22 AM

All the enthusiasm I might have felt for a Shadowrun FPS fades to nothing in comparison with the childish excitment I feel for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Steel prospect!!!

There's a lot of screen shots about on the internet already and they look sweet, but they're scans from a magazine so I won't link to them.

Anyway. Think about what it will mean to be able to control a FPS that way, and try to imagine playing a similar game with dual-sticks after that.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Apr 24 2006, 09:38 PM

Heh, the last time I heard the name "Miyu" was when watching "Kyuuketsuki Miyu".

Anyway, awesome tribute to Hong Kong style cinema that this game may turn out to be, you realize it still wouldn't really be like SR in the way that Deus Ex would be SR, right?

I'd also say See Also the Katana mod for Max Payne. Some people made a graphics-intensive anime style mod for Max Payne where your character is a katana-and-gun using anime hero. It's got al the advanced shootdodges from Kenneth Yeung's Kung Fu mod, a lot of fun custom weapons like a magnum revolver and a 1911, and there's pretty seamless switching from gunplay to katana slicing. Honestly, if what you want is guns plus katana with stylish and great control download that mod.

Be sure you download the really graphic intensive mod. There's an earlier Katana mod where your guy looks like a ninja but it's not nearly as good.

Posted by: eralston Apr 25 2006, 03:31 AM

Not to deviate from the topic too much, but: Katana is the greatest mod made since Counterstrike!

Back on topic...

I would say that if they don't borrow from Morrowind it would be surprisingly original of a game on a new system designed to be part of its first wave (most early games for a next-gen console are just updates of old concepts. Case in point would be that all of the good 360 games right now are sequels or series). I suppose Nintendo has never adhered to such a concept (which has made them what they are today, which is to say Sony's bitches).

Overall I would be disappointed w/o XBOX live of some sort. Take all the social aspects out of RPing and you're just killing pictures. I prefer to kill pictures that represent real people...as dark as that sounds...

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Apr 26 2006, 09:46 PM

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 26 2006, 10:28 PM

That sounds a lot like my view on PvP in video games. If I had the time and inclination I'd probably love it.

Posted by: emo samurai Apr 26 2006, 10:36 PM

You could also do a WOW system where you won't really gain experience if you play too much.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Apr 26 2006, 10:46 PM

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 26 2006, 10:53 PM

I was going to respond but you summed it up in your last paoragraph. If you don't have the time to hit 60th level in WoW you're just fodder for the 60th level guys that think it's funny to one-shot a 30th level guy.

I won't start the hit point debate though, because I've stood on both sides of the fence on it. Some games would not work very well without the ability to withstand lots of damage. Instant death from being engulfed in flames makes it hard to hunt dragons. Other games need as much realism as possible to stay with the theme. Being able to withstand 10 rounds to the head doesn't make much sense in a WWII reinactment game. It all comes down to matching your tools to your goals.

Posted by: hyzmarca Apr 27 2006, 03:15 AM

The very best PvP I've ever seen in a MMORPG was in a text-based game called Gemstone: DragonRealms. I say that it was the best for one reason and one reason only, I had a great deal of fun PvPing in that game it my character's low levels didn't seem to hamper things one bit.

Several things conspired to make it fun and without any of these factors there could have been problems.
First, the weapons available to high level characters were not significantly better than the weapons available to fresh newbies. Your 50,000 platnum piece custom one-of-a-kind quest-reward rapier would cause the same meduim thrusting damage/light slicing damage/light impact damage as a 500 copper piece rapier from the general store. The expensive stuff was mostly for bragging rights.
Second, there were several different types of attacks one could use and an accompanying posture/balance system. A light jab will cause very little damage but has a swift recovery time and won't leave you off balance. A huge slice can cause great damage but can easily leave the attacker off balance. A character who was off balance or knocked prone was extreme vulnerable no matter what skill level. Most fights required a great deal of stratagy because of this.
Third, there were no visible hit points. Instead of giving hitpoints the game would give you certain wounds depending on how badly you were hit. Light scratches were most common but limbs could be completely severed, eye cold be gouged out, spines could be crushed, skulls could be split open, tounges could be cut out, and ect. There was internal bleeding as well as external. And injuries were reflected in the character's limitations. A person with a severed arm couldn't hold a weapon in the lost hand. A person with a severed leg couldn't walk. A person without a tounge couldn't talk. Bleeding was eventually fatal.
Fourth, it was very difficult to raise skills very high. The game raised skills as they were used and provided diminishing returns as they grew higher. Furthermore, you had to pay for your extra lives with skill exp so, as you became more powerfull, it became more difficult extra lives. This encouraged characters to diversify rather than practicing a single skill constantly.

My fondest PvP memory came when my Halfling Thief tried to pickpocket a Gor'tog (Dragonrealms' answer to a giant/troll PC race) Barbarian and failed miserably.
He caught me and was significantly pissed in spit of the fact that I got nothing. I say, no theft no foul. He didn't agree. He wanted a duel. Now, it was obvious to me at the time that this big Barbarian with a giant two-handed sword on his back could have easily crush my tiny little halfling so I pointed out the fact that we were in town and could be arrested for murder in town. Murder was a very serious crime in that game and the IC justice system was both swift and harsh. PKing in the field was allowed but PKing in town could render even a long-term character unplayable due to enormous fines and long prision sentences. I agreed and we went to the town gates to duel outside. Along the way I noticed the entrance to a secret tunel maintained by the thieves' guild and ducked inside, avoiding the fight for the time being.
However, that was not the end of it. Several days latter the same Barbarian showed up while I was killing monsters and he demanded satasfaction. This time, I agreed. There was no way around it. So, he pulled his giant two-handed sword off his back and began advancing on me. That type of sword causes severe slicing damage and severe impact damage. It was unlikely that my halfling would survive a single hit. The best I could hope for was to loose a limb on the first blow and be unable to escape the second. So, I did what any good thief would do. I pulled out my loaded crossbow and used the 'hide command'. This really made the barbarian angry. He made several attempts to find me and eventually did. However, I had been using this time to aim and had the best shot possible by then. Before he could even begin advancing I had fired. It glanced off his all too expensive armor. I waited for him to advance to me and that I retreated as fast as I could. I reloaded as he advanced again and hid once more. This went on for several minutes and I got a few bolts to stick in his chest but none penetrated deeply. At this point, I began to taunt him, accusing him of "stealing" my crossbow bolts which were stuck in his chest. He defended his honor and insisted that he wasn't a thief. He even went so far as to pull the bolt out and give them back to me. I gave him the time he needed to do so and then reloadd my crossbow with one of the bolts that he had so kindly returned. Again he advanced, again I retreated, I aimed for several seconds untill he was within sword range and I fired. With a complete aiming action and at point blank range there was no way I could have missed and I didn't. According to the text my bolt penetrated his heart but it did not kill him. I suppose a Gor'Tog could live with a small hole in his heart. At this point, despite the fact that he was still within sword range of my character he retreated and left the screen. I followed him for a couple of screens, jeering him for stealing the crossbow bolt that was still lodged in his heart, but eventually let him go.
That was a fun PvP.

The problem with modern graphics-based MMORPGS is that they just don't have the level of detail required to do something like that.

Of course, DragonRealms is the only game I know of that had traders as a character class. They were mostly useless in combat, although they could learn to use weapons just like anyhting else. Their claim to fame was the ability to buy donkey's at the trader's guild, load them up with useless goods, and take the donkey's from town to town selling the worthless items as they went. They actually quickly became the richest characters in the game.
There was also the lowly empaths who healed people be absorbing their wounds. (If you had a severed arm the your arm would grow back instantly but the empath's would fall off at the same time.)Empaths couldn't fight at all. Any attempt to injure any creature would lead to a nasty thing called 'empathic shock.'
So it wasn't examtly the most combat-oriented of games.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Apr 27 2006, 03:26 AM

That's an impressive story.

I had a friend back in middleschool who played a lot of Gemstone. Gemstone sounded really badass, and from this story it sounds like it was.

I really like the idea of quest equipment only being slightly more powerful than crap equipment. For me what really ruined DikuMUD was over-the-top equipment, and that's pretty much one of the big factors that makes most MMORPGs asinine today.

Posted by: Aku Apr 27 2006, 02:28 PM

dragonrealms was such a kick ass game, some of the descriptions sounded so goood, especially with crushing weapons. I quit for a while and when i came back it just wasnt the same because they had changed how fast you made exp and how hard things were, so when i came back, i was killing things and stuggling with them at like, level 25 what i had handled easily at like 10-15 before, it just wasnt the same.

Posted by: Chance359 Apr 27 2006, 08:19 PM

my .02 nuyen:

If they make console game, I'm hoping for something similar to GTA. Add in some basic character creation (i.e. archetypes) and cut you loose with a broad general game story. Lots of people/groups to work for, possilbly random generation of runs.

One thing I'd like to see is no aiming retical unless you either stick a laser sight or a smartlink on your gun.

Posted by: emo samurai Apr 27 2006, 08:21 PM

Smartgun should add some autoaim, too.

And I'd like more of a Elder Scrolls openness, with the ability to jack cars, except make it more System Shock than "Press Square to Throw Person Out."