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Posted by: Munchkinslayer Oct 9 2003, 05:34 AM

I've been out of the Shadowrun loop for a while, so excuse my ignorance if it's showing. But I remember trolls being mentally challenged, and now in third edition people just 'think' they're a bunch of delberts because of the shape of their pallets. "I'm not a doofus. I have a speach impediment." Has political correctness invaded Shadowrun? Do we have to worry about upsetting non-existent races too?

I also seem to remember that orks were a societal pain the the hiney. I don't see this in the SR3 stuff I've checked out and I think that sucks. It made total since that orks would be a problem. Remember when you were 14 and fully convinced you could kick anybodies ass? Full of piss and vinegar and suffering from testosterone poisoning. Now think about an ork. He reaches physical maturity at about 14 and physical maturity for an ork is like a human power lifter. Add to that the fact that orks as a race are undoubtably pissed off about the fact that they are likely to die from old age before the other races even reach middle age. Think about gangs of young orks prowling the streets. Big, angry, puffed-up and looking to impress their buds, filled with a since of apathy about tomorrow.

Anyhow, is this stuff still an issue in third edition? I don't notice it.

Posted by: The White Dwarf Oct 9 2003, 05:44 AM

Not exactly sure what youre getting at. The game stats (int, cha penalty) as well as various supplements (New Seattle) both reflect those races with at least some slant towards your rather colorful description. So yea, that facet of the game is there, perhaps not as explicit as you wrote it however. Did you want an example, or a page reference for it or something?

Posted by: White Knight Oct 9 2003, 05:53 AM

Well, I haven't noticed any changes personally.

Trolls: Having a look at my trusty treasury-tag bound copy of SR1 I think the bit that may cover the issue is this (p38)

Posted by: kenny26 Oct 9 2003, 09:29 AM

i haven't played any other edition of SR but 3rd. so my knowledge here might be somewhat lacking. but here goes:

i think trolls have always had some mental disorders or simply underdeveloped brains (the rules state this black on white by adding a +2 penalty to int). but this penalty can have many forms.
one troll might simply be ilitterate (spelling? doh! this couldn't be more inappropriate...) or and have very little or no education, whilst another troll might simply be 'slow' and not very perceptive, but he could still be well educated.

so trolls are dumb, but they can be dumb in many different senses.

Posted by: Abstruse Oct 9 2003, 09:53 AM

You're also feeding into the stereotypes of the race, which FASA first and now FanPro are working against. Trolls are naturally strong and have longer reach, therefore they're usually melee specialists. Orks are less strong, but still obviously suited for combat and thus are typically street samurai or other combat types. Elves are quick and charismatic by nature and therefore are usually either the face, the pistols specialist/shartshooter, the mage (more elementals/spirits), or a combination of those. Dwarves are short and stumpy, but they have high willpower so they're usually riggers and deckers. These are what min/maxers usually play the different races as.

However, FASA and FanPro have been trying to break those stereotypes for a long time and push the game more into role-playing than roll-playing. Therefore, Orks and Trolls esp. (since their penalties generally mean they're just cannon fodder) are still treated that way generally, but the company is going out of its way to show that there are exceptions to every stereotype, esp. when it comes to something like race. So that's why you see an ork decker and a troll mage as the archetypes in the BBB.

The Abstruse One

Posted by: John Campbell Oct 9 2003, 09:54 AM

Note that the SR3 metatype descriptions, unlike the ones in previous editions, are written in-character by members of the metatypes in question. Do you think that they're really going to say, "Yeah, most members of my metatype are really dumb and aggressive. I'm just one of the small minority of exceptions, and even as exceptional as I am, I barely meet human average"? Even if that's just the plain truth?

Posted by: Munchkinslayer Oct 9 2003, 10:12 AM

Nice point Johnny C! I never even thought of that. Maybe I'm a troll.

SR3 p. 50 says that they have "... speach that sounds flat, uninflected, and therefore 'stupid' to the ears of humans and others." Page 40 says that trolls are "less acute (lower Intelligence) than humans." The Intelligence attribute deals with more than just smartz, it has to do with things like visual acuity, and they chose the words 'less acute' wich leads me to think they are not saying that trolls are a little shy in the brain-bucket. I seem to remember just about every adventure or novel I read made the trolls look like they were pretty dumb. The rule book seems to avoid this.

As for the orks, I seem to remember (and I'm just going on memory here, and admittedly mine ain't so good) the first edition rules pointed out that orks matured quickly and caused some havoc; that the race as a whole had something of a FTW attitude because they new they would grow old and die so quickly. All I see about this in SR3 is on page 47 in the Metahuman Characteristics Table, under Lifespan "35 - 40 years".

Thanks for your input one and all and Abstruse, I like that you know the difference between rollplaying and roleplaying.

Posted by: Cray74 Oct 9 2003, 10:15 AM

Posted by: thunderchild Oct 9 2003, 12:00 PM

Posted by: Abstruse Oct 9 2003, 12:11 PM

The troll in Nosferatu seemed like he wasn't a moron. Maybe not a Rhodes scholar, but definately not stupid.

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Hot Wheels Oct 9 2003, 12:15 PM

The intell and charisma penalties mean that the average troll or ork still have those problems, but pc's can rise about this putting extra into intell. The part about the speech problem explains how a being with intell of 6 can still sound like he's from Brooklyn. In general the average troll is as dumb as a box of rocks with an intell of 1, 2 if they're lucky.

Posted by: Cray74 Oct 9 2003, 12:28 PM

Posted by: Ed_209a Oct 9 2003, 02:50 PM

The troll int penalty might be rationalized using biology.

The Troll metatype has roughly 3-4 times the body volume to have to control and monitor. It might have been easier to borrow CCs from the higher thought processes for control purposes, than actually increasing brain size.

Evolution is based around the motto "just good enough is perfect".

Posted by: Thanos007 Oct 9 2003, 03:29 PM

Hate sound all PC and everything but I don't allow any kind of intelligents modifier. Up or down. Haven't since 1st ed. For me it seemed like it legitimist racism, because one race was literally smarter than the others. Elves could treat humans poorly because the elven race is generally smarter than the humans. The humans could then turn around and teat the orks and trolls in the same manner with the elves putting them down as well. I think it makes for a much more interesting game if everyone has the same intellectual chances. Plus then the elves really are arrogent snobs and they get to have the bad racial stereotype.

Just for the record and to put everything in context, I am a white hetero male over 21. No real agenda just like to see people treated on there merits as an individual instead of some member of a stereotyped group. You know, like gamers.

Thanos

I'll even go so far as to say that goblinization can cause some small amount of brain damage and that's how all the stereotypes for orks and trolls got started. As most of them are now born it's not really a factor.

Posted by: IcyCool Oct 9 2003, 03:59 PM

Posted by: phelious fogg Oct 9 2003, 04:11 PM

Just a note, Trolls and Orks have the penalties to mental attributes becasue they werent born that way, Thier body shifts and causes major havok with them. Now at the point you are born as a troll, you probably arent that stupid, but you are alwasy treated like you are so you accept it and dont try to accel, this has happened a lot in human history. Anyways the net result is you get trolls that dont try to be einstiens and thus they arent. -2 int protrays the lack of effort, and or mental changes that create the less acute troll, besides ive never seen a troll in one of my games with less than 3 int.

Posted by: Ed_209a Oct 9 2003, 04:20 PM

Racism would be giving one particular metatype a net total significantly above or below the usual.

Most metas get 2-3 net attribute pts and a few neat tricks in exchange for their priority selection. If someone came up with a "uberaryan" metatype that had a natural +1 to all stats, then that would be a problem.

Posted by: phelious fogg Oct 9 2003, 04:25 PM

Race: Uberaryan
Priority: E
Racial Advantages: +2 all stats (Including Magic and Essence)
Disadvantages: Nobody likes them, every non-Uberaryan gets 10 racisism points againts uberaryans. Hunted 6 point flaw, really, nobody likes them, they all have little square mustaches, very cliche. The Keeper on the Edge doesnt like them, they arent allowed on the metaplanes.
Other advantage: In fact the only people who like them, is themselves, -4 to all social tests with other uberaryans.

Posted by: Ed_209a Oct 9 2003, 04:38 PM

Heh, nobody likes them, but they don't care because they are <trumpet fanfare> Uberaryans!

Awakened fascists united in their destiny to rule the world. (and eliminate a few ethnic groups in the process.)

Back to pseudo-reality:

if it is acceptible that magic works now, then isn't psychoneurological regression also acceptible?

Posted by: Velocity Oct 9 2003, 06:14 PM

Posted by: GunnerJ Oct 9 2003, 06:57 PM

Posted by: Velocity Oct 9 2003, 07:44 PM

Posted by: Ed_209a Oct 9 2003, 08:12 PM

Hmm. I like -1 Int, but perhaps -2 is a bit extreme for Trolls.

Lots of Trolls would have an Int of 1, which to me would make them barely functional in society.

I think shifting the average 3-4 range to a 2-3 range gets the point across, without creating a race of morons.

Posted by: Cain Oct 9 2003, 08:48 PM

Posted by: Velocity Oct 9 2003, 08:50 PM

Posted by: Ed_209a Oct 9 2003, 09:37 PM

Posted by: Velocity Oct 9 2003, 09:40 PM

What I'm suggesting only applies to the non-physical stats: Charisma, Intelligence and Willpower. If trolls are bigger (i.e. enjoy bonuses to their Body and Strength), than they're bigger. Physical statistics are easier to quantify than intelligence or attractiveness, which are highly abstract and context-specific.

Posted by: MachineProphet Oct 9 2003, 10:46 PM

The thing you aren't seeing, Velocity, is that the Ork Rights guys aren't saying that Orks and Trolls are as smart as Humans, Elves and Dwarves and more than animal rights people are saying that Tigers are as smart.

What they're saying is that Orks and Trolls are of equal moral value to humans. If you needed a man to carry boxes for you, and it was an Elf or a Troll, who would you choose? You racist. Nobody's saying that everybody should ignore whether or not you're a Troll or an Elf or an Ork or whatnot - they're saying that they are of equal moral value and should be given the same basic rights and dignities.

Posted by: ialdabaoth Oct 9 2003, 10:57 PM

Posted by: GunnerJ Oct 10 2003, 03:43 AM

Posted by: Dr Komuso Oct 10 2003, 04:58 AM

Personally, I've completely eliminated all mental penalties in my campaign. I just feel they're.... well, to be blunt, racist.... I can't accept the fact that an ork or a troll is just inherently, biologically dumber than another race. But wait, I hear you saying, what about social differences? An average ork has less oppertunity to be educated than the average human. True, and that's reflected by how the player makes the character. If he wants to make an ork who was the rare exception, brought up to be a corporate "seat filler", well than why the hell should his intelligence be penalized?

So, what about game balance you say? Honestly... to hell with it. If my players are all going to stop playing other metatyppes simply because orks and trolls get higher bonuses than the other races than I don't want to play with them anyway. For the record, I've been running the same campaign for seven years and I've never had a problem with an inordinate amount of orks and trolls. And besides, the generic stat mods aren't exactly fair to begin with: Few people seem to notice it, but a dwarf has a total of 4 points of bonus, including the only bonus to the all important willpower stat and an excellent resistence to disease (Which is a really really big advantage when your GM is clever), at the cost of a x2 running multiplier. Not that big a problem when there's a troll to carry him away anyway. Besides, what's he running from with an 8 willpower?

For the record, my group also waived the shorter lifespan. Again.... it's just crap to make elves seem more attractive. Honestly I've had it up to my ears with elves.... it's just ridiculous how glamorized and focused upon they are. I find the fight of the ORC or MOM far more interesting than the latest racist special forces ninja badasses the Tir is rumored to have.

It's late, I'm tired.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 10 2003, 06:27 AM

Wow. You and Velocity must have great groups of players to not have game balance issues when you eliminate the mental Attribute penalties for orks and trolls. Currently, orks get a net increase of 3 to their Attributes after bonuses and penalties, and trolls get a net increase of 4 (not counting their dermal armor). Take away the penalties, and orks have a net increase of 5, while trolls have a net increase of 8 (assuming you still keep the Quickness penalty).

I kind of favor the penalties, myself. Trolls, elves, orks, and others should have different aptitudes and abilities. They fall into certain roles very well (elf shamans, troll tank sammies, ork gangers, etc.), but you can also break the stereotype - which is not as much fun if it doesn't take any effort to do so. I like the troll I'm playing in the Welcome to the Shadows forum, in part because trolls with mental stats as high as his are a rarity.

By the way, back when they listed the lifespans, they were giving average lifespans - humans were only at about 50 or 60-something. So orks and trolls are slightly shorter-lived, but they don't wither and die at 40 or 50 (despite what a few of the novel authors - who should try reading SR before writing about it - would have you think).

Posted by: The Jopp Oct 10 2003, 06:51 AM

My concern is that one usually tend to equal low intelligence with stupidity. My POW on the whole thing is that they think slower than humans and take longer to reach the same conclusions. This can be seen in their perception tests since they generally roll 50% of the dice a normal person would. This can be seen as a slower brain activity since their brains doesn’t manage to pick up all the information in the same amount of time as everybody else.

Unfortunately the world lives by what we see and what we see is a big brutish hulk of a man with oversized teeth that can’t talk normally and seems to be plain dumb.

I would like another system for giving INT and CHAR penalties for trolls but I can’t really come up with one. Even if a troll is “ugly” with a visage that only a mother could love shouldn’t mean that they have penalties when purchasing skills.

Still, the SR system is not a realistic system so we have to use our imagination.

Posted by: Dr Komuso Oct 10 2003, 07:08 AM

Well, I should clarify things a bit, as Glyph's post made me realize that I sounded as if I'm giving people who play orks and trolls a free ride: I use racism, a lot. Now, I know a lot of people feel it's a fair trade to get a +5 strength, +4 body and dermal armor for a bit of inconvinence when one tries to get a table at a restaurant, and I understand the sentiment, but I don't allow anyone playing an ork or troll to ever forget that their character, in most situations, is different with a capital D. It's much more than blatent racism, it's an ingrained attitude that many good-hearted people simply can't avoid, not just a group of Inferior rated Humanis thugs kicking down the troll's door every other session.

They're scary to most people, physically and mentally. The majority of the world simply isn't made to fit them. Any who attempt to rise above their expected role in life are branded as sell outs by many of their own kind, and those who don't are viewed as the worst kind of scum by the majority of metahumanity. They have certain approved ways of acheiving success (athletics, certain forms of entertainment, designated forms of music), and any attempt to reach success by any other way is, as mentioned, perceived as "selling out". They are profiled, harrassed, and followed by authority. They are plagued by distrust and anger they have not earned. In short, the situation of an ork or troll is, in my version of the SR world, no better than that of a black in the US during the 60's.

And yes, I suppose I do have an unusually mature group to be able to handle this kind of roleplaying. Anyone picking an ork or troll knows they will have to deal with racism, both that of other races and of their own kind. Culture, context, and race... these are aspects of any subrace of people, and one which I feel has been woefully underrepersented for the nonhuman races. True, there is the Tir's, but as many sourcebooks have pointed out something like 90% of elves are not citizens of one, nor desire to be. Every group should have a certain culture springing from their place within the social hierarchy, and this has been touched on, but it needs more. There should be an entire sourcebook dedicated to the unique forms of music, art, and language created by these various races who, as we are constantly reminded, are very very separate.

What does Ork rap sound like, dammit?

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Oct 10 2003, 07:21 AM

its racist! how could it be racist against a fantasy race? why take human in priority if your mundane if theres no negatives to being an ork? if you have a problem with them being slower, then you may as well take away elves +2 to charisma and dwarves +1 to willpower.

oh yea, and being bigger doesnt mean your slower, so the quickness penalties should be gone too. and elves? they shouldnt have that +1 to quickness then. because just cuz theyre elves doesnt mean they get free rides.

and just because theyre "bigger" doesnt mean they have to be, or are stronger, so all body and strength bonuses should be gone too, they are racist.

and from now on you cant call them orks, theyre robustus-americans dammit! only orks cancall other orks orks, jeeze!

Posted by: Dr Komuso Oct 10 2003, 02:39 PM

Because, frankly, when you sit down around the table to play a game of Shadowrun you are submerging yourself in the world, and if someone made an RPG within the world where orks and trolls had an intelligence modifier.... well, yeah, I think they'd be pretty pissed.

As far as physical modifiers go, we haven't changed any of them. Elves still get their +1 quickness, trolls still get -1. This is fine because in a mature roleplaying world your physical stats do not define who you are. People /are/ physically different, even today. But to say that one race, because most of it's members are part of a certain culture, are generally uneducated louts across the board.... that's where I have an issue. Behavorism teaches us that we are products of our enviroment, not nature, and I refuse to accept the excuse that maybe orks and trolls are just naturally born brain damaged. Evolutionarily it doesn't make any sense, and it's just not a concept that I can see mature roleplayer including in their games....

((I don't mean to offend with that last post, I'm simply stating my point of view. I'm sure that there are many good players and GM's out there who feel they have good reasons for keeping the penalties, and I'd be interested in hearing them, but not in the context of "yu0 suck, trogz r stoop1d.")

Posted by: Thanos007 Oct 10 2003, 02:47 PM

It all depends on how you define intelligence. Intelligencefrom what I've read is how inherently quick, in a mental sense, a person is. How fast can you grasp a new concept. How fast can you take sperate pices of information and draw a correct (or nearly so) conclusion.

If you are the most intelligent person in the world and were raised in a cave you still won't know shit. Where as a person of average intelligence who has had four years of collage (still won't know shit) will "seem" to be the more intelligent person.

Intelligence in the game and real life is your basic ability to grasp things. What most people judge as intelligence is how much knowledge a person has. A ton of knowledge doesn't make you intelligent. I'm sure you all know someone like this. Think Cliff Claven (given that his knowledge was correct).

Posted by: Velocity Oct 10 2003, 03:15 PM

Posted by: Velocity Oct 10 2003, 03:32 PM

Posted by: Velocity Oct 10 2003, 04:41 PM

Posted by: Mephisto Oct 10 2003, 05:40 PM

IMHO the game is designed about the assumption that Trolls and Orcs are biologically handicapped when it come to intelligence.
You say that you hold up Behaviourism and that’s were I beg to differ. Even today not all humans are equal and even so education can do a great deal, it cannot do everything. Some people are just smarter, some are stronger, some are faster. Evolution is constantly trying new ways. Anybody should have the same rights and opportunities, but people are just not equal biologically. If I want a strong man for the job, and the smarter man is just not as strong, I will not hire him. You cannot have equal chances for them because they are inherently unequal. That is called an individual.
I really don’t want to tell you how to play SR, you asked for opinions. My opinion is that Trolls and Orcs are not as intelligent then other metaraces but as always, there are exceptions. And with some training, many Trolls and Orcs will raise there intelligence more easily then others do (i.e. raising intelligence from 1 to 3 is cheaper then from 3 to 6). My 0.02$.

Posted by: Jari_Kafghan Oct 10 2003, 06:23 PM

Stupid quotes....

Posted by: Ed_209a Oct 10 2003, 06:52 PM

You know, as long as they could run the register (2-3 int?) I would PREFER a troll for 3rd shift at a stuffer shack.

Your robbery rates would be so much lower. People getting soy chips and an algea squishee at 3am probably aren't looking elequent conversation anyway.

Posted by: Dr Komuso Oct 10 2003, 06:53 PM

Of course not all humans are of equal intelligence. That'd lead to an absolutely bland, analytical world. However, Helmesque statistics aside, there is absolutely no basis for saying that one race (White, black, asian, whatever) is more biologically predisposed towards intelligence. The idea that orks and trolls, who are basically Shadowrun's 60's era African-Americans, -are- different in that regard might be FASA's intention, but I simply can't accept it.

And once again, I'd like to reiterate, I've never had a problem with too many orks and trolls in my game. In fact, I'd say I've got less than I really want, most likely because of my hard stance on racism and it's effects on the everyday world.

Also, for the record, I changed canon a bit by making one of my players Robert Page, the guy given the ancient orkish language manuscript in Dunkelzahn's will. Years later, that character is an active and vocal voice in the ork community, fighting the injustice and racism that is so ingrained in the American societies (The non-Indian ones, mainly. Amerinds, after all, hate white people, not orks Maybe I've just been swayed by the player's extremely excellent playing of this character, but I just can't accept that his views on his race's potential are... wrong.

Posted by: Velocity Oct 10 2003, 07:57 PM

Posted by: Dr Komuso Oct 10 2003, 08:24 PM

Posted by: BigKnockers Oct 10 2003, 10:47 PM

I don't understand how you can put so much difference between mental and physical modifiers. Your saying it's fine for trolls to get the plusses and minuses to str, bod and quickness but that no race should have intelligence modifiers. At the end of the day, it's all down to biology, trolls have less "clever" brains.

Surely environmental issues are only relevant within a species. If you raise a chimp with a human family send it to a good school and don't let it watch too much TV, it's never going to get into harvard (although McDonalds may hire it).

My opinion is Trolls are as biologically stupid as they are biologically strong. That modifier has nothing to do with education.

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Oct 10 2003, 10:52 PM

You can't have this conversation in the context of anything resembling a "fantasy" setting.

Fantasy settings come with ingrained racism, which is both good and bad. Bad because it makes some people uncomfortable (Hi Velocity!! /wave) Good because it often forces the players to deal with the issue and maybe learn a little something.

Orks, on average are less intelligent than humans, basic fact of Shadowrun. Troll are even dumber and to an elf, we're all ugly. Fantasy settings (Orcs, dwarves, elves oh my!) are built ON racism, racism is one of the big themes of Shadowrun.

On science point blank agreeing with bigots. You can't draw parallels with real life. We all know about all the backward morons who think they have scientific proof that for instance "black people aren't as smart as white people". We also know that proof is complete bullshit because the color of your skin is GEOGRAPHY, that's all it is. It says "somewhere along the line, you have ancestors from X" that's what it says. Because we are all humans, our DNA is identical, we are the same race.

Orks, Trolls, Humans, Elves and Dwarves are NOT.

Upset about scientific data proving that Trolls are dumber than humans on average? Suck it up, in the world of Shadowrun, it is indeed a fact. Does that make humans better?!? No, no it doesn't, which is the angle the Ork rights activists work on. Are they fighting a losing battle?!? If they insist on trying to integrate into "human" society, yes, yes they are. Society must therefore change, and that period of change is when Shadowrun is happening, it is indeed a dark time, full of hatred.

Just because something is less intelligent than you doesn't make you any better. It might make you smarter, but intellect is not the measure of complete worth, smarter is not better.

There they are, my 2

Sunday

Posted by: Tadite Oct 10 2003, 11:13 PM

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 10 2003, 11:24 PM

Posted by: thunderchild Oct 11 2003, 02:51 AM

I personaly noticed this problem with trolls and orks being limited in brain power, so what i did was raise their racial max intel by 1, so that now they CAN become brighter but they are still slugged from the get go.

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Oct 11 2003, 05:35 AM

Posted by: Glyph Oct 11 2003, 06:55 AM

If you are looking for house rule suggestions to balance them (if you do away with the mental Attribute penalties), then here's some:

>>Re-do the physical Attribute bonuses so they still have the net +3/+4, but waive the rule that you can only spend up to 6 points before modifiers when orks and trolls buy their Body and Strength - they can still have high scores in those areas, but it will cost them. A lot of players might wind up taking lower mental Attributes to take advantage of ork/troll high physical Attributes, but it will be possible to play an ork or troll with a 6 Intelligence or Charisma.

>>Make Orks take priority C or 10 build points, and make trolls take priority B (obviously, you would have to use sum-to-ten if you wanted to have troll sorcerers or adepts) or 20 build points. The higher cost to play that race would offset their high bonuses, and would also help insure that those races would tend to be poorer/have less skills - which would fit a disadvantaged/discriminated against segment of the population.

>>Use the normal modifiers, then orks and trolls have the option to buy higher Intelligence or Charisma - but past the "normal" starting maximum, it costs double points. In other words, a troll could spend 8 more build points to start out with an Intelligence of 6 instead of 4 (although they can also use the Bonus Attribute Edge normally, of course).

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 11 2003, 07:25 AM

I have to say that even a race being "dumber" doesn't grant "rightness" to racism. Why not, you say? They can point to a friggin study and say look, they aren't as smart! They're an inferior species!

Well, sometime check out rights for the mentally handicapped. They've got 'em, they're legally recognized as people just the same as everyone else. Maybe they aren't given certain jobs, but no more than people with degenerative muscular diseases are given jobs lifting crates.
That makes the racism angle even more interesting, in my opinion: how well will someone who has a brother with Downes' Syndrome react to a Humanis Policlub member on the streetcorner touting statistics that Trogs are inferior because they're dumb? What about the other runner whose best friend's sister had cerebral palsy?
The character I'm currently playing (an Elf) would reach for her shotgun, no questions asked.

~J

Posted by: Drain Brain Oct 11 2003, 08:41 AM

Kagenteshi - that's a really good point I hadn't considdered.

But to add my 0.2 nuyen...

intelect: There's a family that lives near me, in RL, who are just plain dumb. It's not a mental disfunction in the genetic/disease sense - they're just dumb. All of them. Sure, they have knowledge and they have skills, but they are (how should I say this...) "Slow on the up-take."
It's heredetary. They are all like it. I assume that it's genetic.

Genetics: Why can there not be smart Trolls? No reason - at all. The same way that there can be tall Chinese humans. However (as someone already mentioned, kinda) there is a Genetic Predisposition toward a certain phenotype. Trolls have a genetic predisposition to being less acute than baseline humanity. They also have a genetic predisposition to being REALLY FRAGGING BIG, STRONG TOUGH... (you get the picture). There may, however, be short trolls, smart trolls, weak trolls... (you get the picture again, right?)

Expected Life Span: Again, to repeat someone else's statement: There may be a factor in this which is entirely oweing to the lack of sufficient medicinal care for the Ork and Troll metatypes, and their tendency to live (by necesity) in squalor. This would be supported by the slightly longer lifespans of Dwarves who are resistant to disease - thus bringing up their average. However, I would like to draw everyone's attention to the recent commercial featuring Jason Statham for the "Kit Kat Kubes" confectionary - currently airing in the UK. It speaks of the fast cheetah and elk, who live fast and die young. And the giant turtle with an average speed of nought miles per hour, which lives for 200 years.

They're both animals - just vastly different. Like, say, a lithe, skinny elf and a massive, hulking troll perhaps? Think how much energy must be expended moving those giant bodies! Then there's pure genetics... maybe, just maybe the telomeres of troll DNA shorten faster than those of a human, or an elf. I don't know why, or how, but they might. They're not real, so I can't do a blood test and study it. It's fantasy. The game designers can do what they want.

Racism: It happens. Nobody will ever stop biggotry, no matter whether it's colour, status, penis size or metatype. It sucks, but that's the way it is. The word, "Prejudice" comes, no doubt, from pre-judicial. To judge in advance, based on your perceptions of a person as governed by what you see - black skin, cheap clothes, tiny weiner, horns and tusks. These visual stimuli can, to varying degrees, invoke different feelings. I felt physically inferior to many of the Afro-carribean boys at college, who tended to be very fit. I have a tendency to find Oriental men to be more charismatic (don't ask me why, it's just a weird... thing) than caucasians, so I am more inclined to trust them and make friends. I avoid people in suits - the well tailored suit is a status symbol, and I just don't like all that is inferred by it. More so, I avoid those dressed in the robes of the clergy (I'll stop the metaphors there, before the penis one...).

I could be wrong on all counts, but Humans naturally judge by sight (and smell, and hearing - you get what I mean). It's unavoidable. I'd get the troll to move the boxes, because he looks stronger, but equally someone who felt uneasy around trolls, or who had an even stronger reaction, might choose the elf.

Sheesh, now I'm just rambling and I lost my point. It's in there somewhere. Read it again, you might find it.

Oh, and:

Posted by: Thanos007 Oct 11 2003, 04:44 PM

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Oct 11 2003, 05:00 PM

Well sorry, I just do not agree. They may have all come from the same race but an elf is not a human, nor is a Troll. They are considered different races, and if you think Trolls breed with humans... well... that's gotta hurt.

Sunday

Posted by: Velocity Oct 11 2003, 05:19 PM

Posted by: Velocity Oct 11 2003, 05:30 PM

Posted by: Thanos007 Oct 11 2003, 07:08 PM

Posted by: Raptor1033 Oct 11 2003, 07:37 PM

don't things like deaths due to stillbirths and violence still count towards lowering life expectancy? so the lower life expectancy of orks and trolls could be due to high violence related deaths; or in the case of orks, high rate of still births because of the huge amount of children they have.

[edit] and in the case of stat modifiers you could just use TN modifiers instead, which can be just as bad, if not worse.
and as for

Posted by: Velocity Oct 12 2003, 03:29 AM

Posted by: Dr Komuso Oct 12 2003, 05:24 AM

I'd just like to address the seemingly most popular opinion that the intelligence penalty is okay for orks and trolls because of unalterable, cold, genetic fact.

Say this out loud to yourself:

"I am a troll. The average member of my race is not as fast a runner as the average human. This is a biological fact."

Now, replace the word "troll" with "Caucasian". Replace human with "African-American."

Now say this out loud:

"I am a troll. The average member of my race is not as intelligent as the average human. This is a biological fact."

Now, replace "troll" with "African-American". Replace human with "Caucasian."

Now, take a long moment and consider your gut reaction to all four of these sentences. The first sentence, as a Shadowrun player, most likely didn't bother you. The second sentence, putting real world races into the SR context, may have bothered you, particularly if you're a white athlete (More on that later), or it may have simply struck you as a general fact. The third sentence, unless you're Velocity ( ) probably didn't bother you either. But, my clinical psychology class and I are both willing to bet that approximately 80% of you did not like the sound of the fourth sentence.

Now, put yourself in the context of an ork in the UCAS, circa 2061. Say the third sentence again, keeping your new role in mind. As an ork in 2061 how does it make you feelt? How do you think it would make you feel to have a human telling it to you? How do you think it would make you feel to have a scientist telling it to you? Would you believe it? Would you accept it?

The preceding experiment was a slight modifcation of one conducted by my clinical psychology course a few months ago. The actual name of the technique escapes me (Any psych majors out there?), but the basic conclusion was this: Approximately 80% of people do not feel comfortable saying that any one ethnicity possesses more mental acuity than any other. When asked why, the vast majority responded with something along these lines: "Because it doesn't make sense."

So.... yes, Shadowrun is a half-fantasy, half sci-fi setting. Yes, fantasy, in the most general sense, is built on certain stereotypes. Tolkien's orcs (not orks) were savage, nearly mindless, and it was fully established that this was a simple fact of their twisted birth, not their upraising in a violent, savage society. D&D's orcs are savage and nearly mindless, but an orc taken out of "orcish" can be raised with dwarven values, elven values, human values, whatever. So... D&D has not stepped completely away from Tolkien's convention, but they have distances themselves from it somewhat by establishing that an intelligent creature is a product of his society, not his biology.

"But WAIT!", I hear you yell, "Shadowrun is NOT D&D!!" No, it's not, and thank god for it. Neither is Shadowrun Tolkien. If Shadowrun was Tolkien, well.... orks (Not orcs) and trolls (Who owe absolutely NOTHING to either Tolkien's or D&D take on a troll) would not have the ORC, would not be a part of society in any form, would not be able to restrain themselves from trying to control or destroy everything around them, and would consistently be (deep breath), mindless savage brutes.

So.... if Shadowrun was to use Tolkien's example... well, all those Humanis goons would be right, wouldn't they?

So, are those Humanis goons right in your game? Maybe they are, and that's your choice. However, in my game, and any game where the GM is interested in his players playing their orcs and trolls are more than their sterotype, they are not either.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 12 2003, 05:33 AM

Being less intelligent!=being a mindless, violent brute.

~J

Posted by: MYST1C Oct 12 2003, 03:51 PM

Posted by: Velocity Oct 12 2003, 06:16 PM

Posted by: Drain Brain Oct 12 2003, 06:22 PM

Nah... 'cause that's what it says in the Big Black Book...

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 12 2003, 06:33 PM

Posted by: Thanos007 Oct 12 2003, 07:49 PM

Posted by: Velocity Oct 13 2003, 03:21 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 13 2003, 03:34 AM

And why do Dwarves get a blanket movement penalty? Why do Trolls get a blanket Strength bonus?
While physical abilities may be a lot less likely to be a sensitive subject than mental abilities, they're no more a valid possibility for something that has varying typical levels in different races. It's just not something that can be measured outside of an RPG environment.
Or maybe it can be and I'm just brainwashed to be politically correct. It doesn't matter; I don't care if I'm genetically predisposed to be more or less intelligent than anyone else. I don't, for the most part, actually care how intelligent someone is, I care how they act. There are people with IQs higher than me (and that's high) who act in ways that I would characterise as "seriously fucking stupid". I myself am an idiot in many ways, despite having a high raw processing ability. There are people who can do things I can't, and probably will never be able to do, despite the fact that they are probably of very average intelligence, sometimes subaverage.
If you want to have a truly even-handed game, do away with all bonuses and minuses, expand the edge/flaw system, use racism more liberally, and have fun with your game. Do not, however, mistake it for or claim it to be Shadowrun.

~J

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 13 2003, 03:35 AM

Posted by: Glyph Oct 13 2003, 04:51 AM

On the elf Charisma bonus: Charisma represents self-esteem and force of personality. So why do elves have stronger personalities? Maybe it is growing up being told that they are "special", having people idolize them, and being part of a cool clique just by birth, in addition to fitting the human ideals of beauty (tall and slim). Even elves that reject these stereotypes, and their "heritage", will still tend to have more self-confidence than others.

Similarly, orks and trolls face racism, limited opportunities, few role models, etc. Plus, they mature physically before they have fully matured mentally. So is it any wonder they are not as confident or adept at social interactions? Maybe that's part of the reason that orks and trolls have lower starting Intelligence and Charisma - they're younger than their human, dwarven, and elven counterparts.


If you have a problem with orks and trolls being penalized on a mental Attribute, then you should also take another look at how you handle the elven Charisma bonus. Be careful, though. Elves are the most expensive race when you look at what you actually get when you buy them. Their superior potential as a full mage or face is one of the few things still keeping them playable compared to the other races. So if you negate their Charisma bonus, you probably give them an extra point of Quickness and reduce their cost to 5 build points/priority D.

Finally, you should also look at the dwarven Willpower bonus. If you want to be consistent across the board, you should eliminate this, too. Maybe you could change it to an extra point of Body instead.

If you do this, though, then you are taking away a lot of the aptitudes that make people want to play elves and dwarves in the first place. Why play an elven face or a dwarven sorcerer, if they are the same thing as a short human or a human with pointy ears?

Posted by: Velocity Oct 13 2003, 02:59 PM

Posted by: IcyCool Oct 13 2003, 04:01 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 13 2003, 04:09 PM

That's like saying no one likes the KKK. It seems true, but then there's the fact that it never actually goes away...

~J

Posted by: IcyCool Oct 13 2003, 04:21 PM

Posted by: Crusher Bob Oct 13 2003, 05:02 PM

Of course, the KKK can do the same thing in retaliation... A quick drive-by of ye local orkish kindergarten should do just fine. Hmm, sounds likes like an adventure seed… Humanis Policlub and local gang, in war, politicians and reporters circling like vultures, PCs in the middle.

Posted by: AnotherFreakBoy Oct 14 2003, 01:56 AM

But LS would be all over the group that blew up a kindergarten. Even an Ork one.

Attacks again groups of grown people rallying for an unpopular cause would be less thoroughly investigated.

Posted by: Lantzer Oct 14 2003, 04:10 PM

Depends. The gang is probably full of SINless. The Rally is probably full of tax-paying citizens. Guess which side the rent-a-Cops will side with.

Posted by: Lantzer Oct 14 2003, 04:10 PM

Depends. The gang is probably full of SINless. The Rally is probably full of tax-paying citizens. Guess which side the rent-a-Cops will side with.

Posted by: Tanka Oct 14 2003, 04:42 PM

On the note of "Average Lifespan"

This can be explained by a higher metabolism for a larger being. The larger you are, the more energy you need to supply to your body to keep it going. The larger you are, the harder your heart has to pump to push blood to all your extremities. The harder your heart pumps, the more energy it uses, the less energy it saves over time, and the quicker it can lead to some sort of heart failure.

What am I saying? I'll bullet it.

• Larger = more energy required
• More energy required = more energy consumed
• More energy consumed = overall loss of energy
• Overall loss of energy = loss of life (generally)

Posted by: Nova Oct 14 2003, 04:49 PM

If one race can be stronger/faster/more magical etc... I see no reason why they can't be less/more intelligent.

It is supposed to balance out with overall stat boosts/decreases. If it were not the case then wouldn't everyone play a troll? All the physical perks with no mental disads?

I don't see why mental stuff should be considered more important then physical stuff. If people can be discriminated against because of their low int, they can also be discriminated against because of their low body/str/penis size. I think it may be a little myopic to attribute more importance to intelligence...in fact IRL intelligence is considered "more important" because we don't really have a need for physical stats (apart from physical labor and pro sports), but check around 2000 years ago and ask people if they'd rather have someone clever on their side, or someone big and strong.

In the SR world, physical stats are once again important because of all the conflict...as important as int imho. If you can cope with a +4 STR for trolls, then what's the problem with -2 int, and why is one more important/unfair than the other?

According to meriam webster, racism is:
"a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race"

So trolls can feel superior to everyone else based on strength. "Puny humans!" In fact if they were not less intelligent, then SR racism would STILL be valid but in reverse. Trolls would feel (justifiably) superior to all other races cause they get all the bonuses and no negatives. Wouldn't change anything other than which race feels superior.

I have no problem with races being different, and in this case I think the problem is people are saying that intelligence is the only factor for racism which imho is bullshit. Strength/Body/Dex/Penis Size can also factor into racism just as easily, so if we're gonna try and put an end to "justifiable racism" then no one should get ANY stat boosts or negatives, because *whammo* they are now different then everyone else and may have a reason to feel superior.

Since I didn't read all the thread, I may be missing some points here.

Nova

Posted by: Person 404 Oct 14 2003, 07:49 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 14 2003, 07:57 PM

Actually, in nature, with a very few exceptions, the larger the animal the larger the lifespan. Compare a dog and an elephant, for instance.

~J

Posted by: Tanka Oct 15 2003, 01:39 AM

I'm going between shorter humans and taller humans. Most of the taller humans tend to die at an earlier age due to their heart being put on a harder system of pumps than a shorter person's.

Take Andre the Giant. Died early of heart failure. He was, what, 7', at least?

Now, if you're abnormally tall ("giant"), and another is abnormally short ("midget"), you usually both have the same clinical time to live. Going between the "average" height of anywhere from 5'7" to 6' flat for men, the 6 footers die a tad earlier.

Posted by: Tanka Oct 15 2003, 03:27 AM

Oh, and, as for Trolls being stupid as the stereotype, here you go. A Troll Bear Shaman Spellcasting Adept (just the Attribs via SR2 rules).

B: 10 (11 to Ballistics)
Q: 5
S: 9
C: 5
I: 8
W: 7
Init: 4d6+9

Now, had I felt like taking gaesa, I could've grabbed the Level 3 Encephalon and a Cerebral Booster 2 for a mind-number Intelligence of 12. That's twice your "normal" human genius. I could've also done some Edges and Flaws to really spice this guy up. Raise Racial Max (Int), Bonus Attrib Point (Int)... Int up to 9, 13 if I went with gaesa.

Of course, in SR3, if I remember correctly, you can't use magic to effect mental attributes. So, in SR3, he'd still be an Int 8 Troll. There goes that thought, neh?

Posted by: Glyph Oct 15 2003, 03:49 AM

Andre the Giant is not a really good example to use when discussing the troll lifespan. Andre was a human suffering from a detrimental medical condition. And people with dwarfism suffer from a shorter lifespan just like people with giantism.