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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ SURGErs

Posted by: Glayvin34 Apr 26 2006, 08:40 PM

I'm new to SR with the fourth edition, were there any rules for being affected by the SURGE associated with Halley's Comet from the third edition? Were there any other metatypes available?
A "SURGEr" Quality would make sense if you're not already a metatype other than human. You would get a diminished metatype-like set of effects, like +1 to an atrribute or two but you run at half speed because your hooves are cumbersome, or you take a -1 on most social interactions because of your third eye, something like that.
Has this ground been covered already?

Posted by: mdynna Apr 26 2006, 09:26 PM

I was surprised that SR4 didn't have any of the "Changling" (that's what they call those affected by SURGE) traits. What you'll probably have to do is pick up Year of the Comet. That lists all of the SURGE traits. From there they should translate almost directly into Positive and Negative Qualities in SR4.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Apr 26 2006, 09:28 PM

Take the BP cost of buying equvilant cyberware/bioware to gain the effect and then a little more BP for cosmetic surgery, then call it SURGE. Then maybe charge a BP or 2 to round it off. The advantage of not losing the essence is traded for being a freak.

Posted by: Glayvin34 Apr 26 2006, 09:41 PM

QUOTE (mdynna)

What you'll probably have to do is pick up Year of the Comet. That lists all of the SURGE traits. From there they should translate almost directly into Positive and Negative Qualities in SR4.

Ah-so. I just downloaded Year of the Comet but I had only gotten a few chapters into it when I posted. There's that whole chapter at the end dealing with Changling traits. Neat-o. Maybe we'll see some 4th ed info on this next year.
The rules are cool, 5 BP to be a "changling", then they have corresponding Negative and Positive SURGE effects. You're supposed to roll 1d6+modifiers to determine how much of each you get. Looks like my GM is about to get the crap bugged out of him.

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 26 2006, 10:00 PM

I'll be honest... I Highlander 2'ed SURGE after I'd read through it (that is, I pretended it didn't happen). I get the impression from talking around here that there's a significant percentage of GMs that basically went "Heh, uh.. right. No."

Posted by: Kanada Ten Apr 26 2006, 10:09 PM

But oh how it is lovely for critters. Immunity to Normal Weapons on a Barghest...

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 26 2006, 10:20 PM

from what i recall, most people freaked at the cat girl stuff in the fluff. to much anime for their tastes...

Posted by: stevebugge Apr 26 2006, 10:24 PM

The mechanics made it reasonably unlikely to happen, we checked in our group and only one character was hit. Because the effects were not listed in SR4 we just decided that they faded over time because they required the added mana level associated with the Comet, of course that leaves the door open for them to come back if an upcoming book includes them again.

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 26 2006, 10:25 PM

I really don't have a problem with people getting cosmetic surgery, balance tails, or whatever they want to be all anime-ed out in game. The Johnson might think less of them, but if they've got a solid street rep, that's more important.

But when it feels like a game like has basically said "Hey, let's pay fanservice to anime and X-Men fans by having characters randomly mutate into those genres," it doesn't sit well with me.

Posted by: mdynna Apr 26 2006, 10:25 PM

What was so wrong about SURGE? It was totally up to the GM whether it actually happened to PC's or not. Sure there were rules for the "SURGE test" but it didn't have to happen.

Posted by: hyzmarca Apr 26 2006, 11:34 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

But when it feels like a game like has basically said "Hey, let's pay fanservice to anime and X-Men fans by having characters randomly mutate into those genres," it doesn't sit well with me.

You mean like paying homage to fantasy by having people randomly Goblinize into Orks and Trolls?

Posted by: Dissonance Apr 26 2006, 11:40 PM

Man, fuck you, hyzmarca. I wanted to say that.

Posted by: Teulisch Apr 26 2006, 11:50 PM

its easiest to treat SURGE as a second wave of goblinization, which included the change of existing metas into sub-types. so an elf could goblinize into an elf sub-type, and so on. I expect teh sub-types will show up in one of the books soon, but until then its just a funny-lookin meta with extra racism problems.

Posted by: TBRMInsanity Apr 27 2006, 02:06 AM

I think a source book with SURGE is still to come. They main thing to point out about SURGE is it only effected a small portion of the population and it is not an ongoing metamorphosis. Those that were unlucky to SURGE did and any that did not is safe. I do expect simmilar events to occur in the future though.

Posted by: The ubbergeek Apr 27 2006, 12:43 PM

SURGE was not so bad.

It was chaotic magic at it's finest.... Something wildly unpredictable, who could screw you bad.

And the catgirl interview... From what I know, is nothing cute, no furry or anime fanboyism... I mean what, the girl got used as a toygirl for derenged man as a sick fetish... And the interviewer don't fall into an Interview with a vampire-like fascination... If I remember well wheat I know, he get disturbed/disgusted at the GIRL, and all. In his mind, SHE is the freak.

SURGE, used properly, can add a 'we're fucked' element to the game. Another thing the terrians have no control on it, and a social harrowing stigmata. Imagine, by example, one that gre horns, tail, etc... In one of those muslim countries.

Beside, it's canon, like it or not. It happened. All too easy to fan-recon something that you don't like; but how about trying to use it, to make it work even more?

Posted by: juggertroll Apr 27 2006, 01:11 PM

the SURGE idea is very good, adding even more flavor in the shadow run world, but the anime angle of SURGE is very opitional i think.

QUOTE

You mean like paying homage to fantasy by having people randomly Goblinize into Orks and Trolls?

Nice way to see this subject, i like it

Posted by: Dashifen Apr 27 2006, 03:09 PM

SURGE is still around in SR4, just not in the rulebooks. A character in On the Run is described as having SURGED bone spurs (probably chronic osteocuspus) and astral perception.

Posted by: Muskie Apr 27 2006, 03:59 PM

Actually, I'm a furry, myself. I love SR, no doubts there, but I always had to go "Night One with Cyber and Cosmeticware" to get anywhere with my Feline Hacker Gumshoe. Thanks to SURGE, He's no longer such an oddity (not to mention such a pain to Chargen..).

Posted by: TBRMInsanity Apr 27 2006, 04:10 PM

Wow where do these people come from. I like my anime on the tv screen not in my SR game.

Posted by: mdynna Apr 27 2006, 04:18 PM

Here here, TB.

PS You sure we can't play tomorrow?

Posted by: The ubbergeek Apr 27 2006, 04:35 PM

QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ Apr 27 2006, 11:10 AM)

Wow where do these people come from. I like my anime on the tv screen not in my SR game.

I fail to see WHERE anime is in Shadowrun, except perhaps as a stereotypical term for bad cartoony things from a guy who know jack. And that was NOT the premise fo SURGE, except a natural magic event, rather chaotic. Also, NOTHING cute in it. Naught.

And if good inspiration for a shadowrun game/campaign can be found in an anime out of all place, well...

Posted by: TBRMInsanity Apr 27 2006, 04:45 PM

sorry mdynna got to see my grandfather.

Posted by: Glayvin34 Apr 27 2006, 04:51 PM

QUOTE (The ubbergeek)

Too right, UG. Just because SR is using aspects of fantasy/sci-fi that have been used before doesn't mean they're paying homage to anything. Marvel Universe mutations are fairly ridiculous, they say the same gene that gives you the healing factor could give you superintellect, the ability to turn into metal, or what ever other random-ass thing. At least they gave an obscure if logical Genetic reason for SURGE, it's not inconceivable for hidden genes to express under certain circumstances giving moderate physiological changes. Simpler organisms do it all the time, and without mana.
And while Tolkien was arguably the originator of Orks, the other metatypes like trolls, goblins, elves and dwarves were in literature WAY before ol' J.R.R., and it would be a stretch to say that he is paying homage to previous works.

What's wrong with SURGE? Nothin'!

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 27 2006, 06:36 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

You mean like paying homage to fantasy by having people randomly Goblinize into Orks and Trolls?

Sorry, I must have missed out on the part where they added Orks and Trolls and, oh, magic and other fantasy elements into the game in the middle of the Third Edition.

I looked at SURGE, thought about it for a while, decided I wasn't interested in having it in the game, and ignored it. Considering the number of other meta-plot items that people freely discard left and right in their individual games, I don't see what the problem is with doing it with SURGE.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 27 2006, 08:17 PM

its not that they discard it thats the problem, its that they come onto this forum and keep talking about themselfs doing so and why its so "bad" (mostly its boils down to some kind of anime-fobia) whenever the topic comes up...

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 27 2006, 08:30 PM

Sorry. Tell you what, next time I don't like something in a game, I won't talk about why. I think this is a policy everyone should follow, really... we'd get an awful lot done around here if people only talked about what they liked in Shadowrun. Negative feedback is overrated, really.

Posted by: Geekkake Apr 27 2006, 08:38 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 27 2006, 03:30 PM)

I'd regard the issue as more along the lines of flat condemnations == bad and counterproductive. Not liking something is fine. For instance, I don't really like most anime, and I fucking hate that furry shit, but I fail to see how it's relevant when discussing Shadowrun.

If someone has an anime-style idea and posts a thread about it, check it, and ignore the goddamned thread if you don't like anime in your Shadowrun. Let the people interested in the subject develop the idea further through discussion. Go start a thread about an idea you do like. If you don't have an idea, and you can't find a way to address what you perceive as flaws or undesirable elements in someone else's idea other than saying, "it's bad and I'll never use it", the best solution, as always, is to shut the Hell up and let the grown-ups talk.

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 27 2006, 08:50 PM

So, I assume you completely missed the part where I said

QUOTE

I really don't have a problem with people getting cosmetic surgery, balance tails, or whatever they want to be all anime-ed out in game.

and the part where I explained that my reason for pulling it out of the game was that it was

QUOTE

having characters randomly mutate into those genres

when you decided that I've apparently got a problem with anime elements in Shadowrun, and it was time to go all Avenging Otaku on my ass?

Informing one of my players that, based on a random die roll, his character was now a catgirl/bone-ridged-mutant/freaky-SURGE-effect-of-not-your-choice was canned because it sounded like about as much fun as informing him that, based on a random die roll, he had just been hit by a car during downtime and needed massive surgery, so he was now part cyborg. The kind of thing that fucks with character concept a little bit, you know?

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 27 2006, 08:59 PM

the anime comment was not aimed squarely at your shrike30, but generaly thats the argument thats used when the surge effect is dismissed.

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 27 2006, 09:06 PM

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

the anime comment was not aimed squarely at your shrike30, but generaly thats the argument thats used when the surge effect is dismissed.

It was actually your objection to talking about removing elements of the game that kicked me over into sarcasm mode

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 28 2006, 12:21 AM

and what comment would that be? ah, my reply to you?

QUOTE

that one?

its a reply to this bit from you:

QUOTE

Considering the number of other meta-plot items that people freely discard left and right in their individual games, I don't see what the problem is with doing it with SURGE.

and there you use generic terms (people, their) so therefor i do the same (them). your reason for doing it is infact a fresh breath in the saturation of nati-anime comments that used to follow any refrence to SURGE.

still; yes we are aware that people dont like SURGE for various reasons. but when people start to talk about it, its because they want to use it. so coming into the thread talking about a person wish for it to "never show up on radar ever again", is not productive to the thread in any way what so ever.

we have heard it, and frankly we dont care. its kinda like the debate about how much SR4 "stinks". sorry but given that we sit here and post about ways to use it, we dont think so. and no repetition of the message will change that...

Posted by: hyzmarca Apr 28 2006, 01:57 AM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

Informing one of my players that, based on a random die roll, his character was now a catgirl/bone-ridged-mutant/freaky-SURGE-effect-of-not-your-choice was canned because it sounded like about as much fun as informing him that, based on a random die roll, he had just been hit by a car during downtime and needed massive surgery, so he was now part cyborg. The kind of thing that fucks with character concept a little bit, you know?

If you have a problem with random dice rolls then you don't have to use them. You could still lets PCs be Surged by using SURGE traits as Edges/Flaws and having them pay karma/BP.

Posted by: mdynna Apr 28 2006, 05:40 PM

True enough. If you don't like the random-ness, then present it to the characters as say, "Does anyone want this to happen?" If you don't like/want it to happen to PCs then don't, but I don't see a big deal with it happening "in general" in the world.

Keep in mind that the rules say that the SURGE traits must be (mostly) in balance. So, you get free Positive Qualities as well as some Negative ones. I suppose it depends on how much "G" exists in your "RPGs." I know some people are heavy on the "Game" and other are heavy on the "Role Playing." So, whatever. (shrug)

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 28 2006, 05:50 PM

It was the randomness that really bugged me in terms of "having it happen in game..." I don't like having things that are a theoretically world-spanning random event but the players happen to be immune to.

After the fact, though (in, say, 2070 ), having had SURGE happen seems a little more feasible. After all, it's not like people get to choose at birth that they happen to be albino gnome spellcasters, but the characters we see are people who exist in the SR world, and that happen to be player-controlled. Figuring out some sort of BP cost for various SURGE abilities in SR4 would be a decent way of adding some variety.

Posted by: mdynna Apr 28 2006, 06:07 PM

The "value" listed beside each of the SURGE affects in Year of the Comet should be easy to transfer to a BP cost for SR4.

I understand where you're coming from. A lot of players do not like anything (of significance) to happen to their characters without prior knowledge and their consent. This leads to some really "gamey" decisions by the player ("I'm not going to get that cyberware now because I'm going to buy a SURGE affect that does it for me...") that are not particularily reaslistic. "Real" is sometimes having life-changing events thrust upon you without warning (like SURGE). Some players see this as a fun RP challenge, others will just get resentful.

For example, I had an event in one of my player's lives once where I had him "die." He had been going along and had made some rivals that were (unknown to him) quite well connected. But he was your typical cocky Troll ganger. So, one time I had solo session with him where he was ambushed. The Star gunned him down in spectacular fashion (with a Citymaster-mounted LMG) and left him for dead. I had an NPC he had previously befriended take him in and pay for his treatment. The fallout was he lost an arm and a leg (literally), but I gave him Alphaware cyberlimbs for free. As a story side-effect, all his enemies assumed him "dead." I told him to pick a new street name (which he did), and then he began plotting his revenge. It turned into a great side plot that "hooked" him further into the game/universe. However, some players would resent this "death" being thrust upon them. It's up to the GM to judge.

Posted by: Dranem Apr 29 2006, 08:21 AM

I converted SURGE for 4th Edition much the same way as I SR converted Edges and Flaws into Qualities. As the events of the comet happened in the past, my characters have the choice of whether they're character underwent transformation or not, after creation there are no other chances for it to happen. SURGE is a 5 bp subrace cost plus the cost of positive/negative SURGE qualities to a max of 35 bp each.

Before the player goes all anime-craze on me, I have them read the mechanics, implications, and social implications of what SURGE will have done, and will do to their character in game play. If they expect they'll be treated like a cute cuddly furry, I have them re-read the social implications. I haven't changed the SR world to be anime friendly, if anything, it's just gotten a heck of a lot harder on the character, cause they will stick out in a crowd. It's like giving yourself the distinctive style flaw - and can have some interesting role-play side effects.

I had one player, mind you, who tried to take it too far... wanted to be a humanoid cat, complete with rear-bending knees and ears on the top of his head. I reminded him that while changed, he's still metahuman, and his form isn't that much different than anyone elses.. and besides, there's no allowances in the SURGE rules for such drastic changes to exist. I suggested he may want to be a shapeshifter rather than a changeling and in the end went for that variant instead after reading the rules. (In the end he never did make it to game due to scheduling conflicts, but oh well, his loss)

In the end it all boils down to character preference, whether the GM will allow it, and whether the player can realistically stay in character along the SR theme. In a world where toxic insect shamans exist, I don't see any problems with someone suddenly growing a tail, fur over their bodies, becoming a cyclops or having gills. Half of which you can get with cosmetic or cyberware modification by 2070 anyway.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Apr 29 2006, 09:22 AM

QUOTE (Dranem)

I had one player, mind you, who tried to take it too far... wanted to be a humanoid cat, complete with rear-bending knees and ears on the top of his head. I reminded him that while changed, he's still metahuman, and his form isn't that much different than anyone elses.. and besides, there's no allowances in the SURGE rules for such drastic changes to exist.

SURGE allowed Satyr legs.

Posted by: Tattered~Seraphim Apr 29 2006, 12:23 PM

I won't repeat at length again what others have already said before me, but I consider that SURGE is one of those aspects in the game that can be used or discarded as one pleases, depending on what style of game one is after. When used right, it can add an interesting spin to a game. SURGE arose due to *chaotic* magic, and there isn't really anything anime-ish about it unless a player or GM wants it, and even then it's the GM's decision on whether to allow it to get that way if they want to include it. It also depends on what year the game is being set in.
One of my SR characters was initially inspired by a VG character to an extent, and after chatting with the GM we decided to go with SURGE as the way to give the character the unusual twist that I was after. Then I realised that my character bore a few physical similarities to a different, anime character at times. Despite the source of the inspiration, I don't want to play the character in an anime style; if I wanted to do that, I'd go play BESM. SR is a *fantasy* game as much as it's a cyberpunk game, and that means accepting that there are going to be strange magical creatures wandering around. Magic needs an amount of chaos to its order to balance out.

Posted by: Thanee Apr 29 2006, 12:34 PM

There might be people out there who use cosmetic surgery to look like their anime heroes/heroines (or like cute furry things).

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: The ubbergeek Apr 29 2006, 04:13 PM

I can see some sick and rich pimps hunting for... Interesting-looking SURGED women and men to cather some perverted and depravated rich ones. (or using magic and tecnology to 'modify' a 'normal' guy/girl... Against their wishes, probably).

"Mister Keitaro? I think that we found one that may interest you..."

See how SURGE could end up something fitting, dark and ugly-faced?

And of course, since it,s random, some poor sod may end up looking or being something that is an horror to some groups, like a devilish-like one in a fiundamentalist region as the example I used.

Posted by: Metatron May 1 2006, 11:38 AM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

My character that has SURGEd was done by the ref via a secret dice roll. He rolled for each of the players in turn, and it was my characters unlucky day...(He was sub one essence)

The role-play aspect was wonderful. He knew enough about paranormal animals to know that only a few critters were 'blind' and could see astral, so he thought he was turning into a ghoul - when the pain from his skin flaking off was light so he was conscious. He also ended up sitting in the bath full of water to try and allieviate the itchy flaky skin too. And all this started with a guy with a cold brushing past him in the street, and my character thought it might be a cold coming on...

When he woke up from having finished the transformation, it turned out that he was dual natured, with altered skin colour (blue)(I was soo cheesed off at the ref, as I had only just finished drawing him...), retractable claws and a couple of other bits that I can't remember without the sheet in frount of me.

He has been given some stick about it from various corners, but he just shrugs it off.

I think SURGE is a nice effect, and it would have been nice to see some sort of rules for it in the main book, as it had already happened, but I can see why they didn't put it in, as then people would have wanted all the other meta-types put in as well, and that leads to an enormous book that costs a fortune...

The way my ref has dealt with it, as he has converted the character over from SR3 to SR4 is that as it was sheer dumb luck and not character choice is he just gave the character the 'freebie' that is being a changeling, and all that comes with it...

Posted by: mfb May 1 2006, 05:14 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

You mean like paying homage to fantasy by having people randomly Goblinize into Orks and Trolls?

that would be a valid point if Shadowrun were an anime game. it's not--or at least, it wasn't, until SURGE.

moreover, the whole SURGE thing was supposed to jack up metahuman tensions and bigotry. the books say it did that, but other than saying "oh noes teh rasism!!1!11!!", nothing ever really came out of it. so, instead of making the setting grittier and dirtier, it gave us catgirls. yay.

Posted by: Voran May 1 2006, 05:22 PM

Heh, yeah I guess when you literally could become a gun-bunny, it got a little off

Posted by: mfb May 1 2006, 05:35 PM

i saw one guy create Big Bird.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 1 2006, 07:43 PM

You're telling me that Big Bird resorting to running the shadows in order to make a decent wage isn't gritty?

Posted by: fool May 1 2006, 07:52 PM

One of my players, a troll, wound up through random rolling with pink skin and purple fur and red eyes.... boy did he stand out. He got in return a few abilities the only one I remember off hand was the scent ability. I don't really see what the problem with surge is and would like new rules for it. He was the only on of all the characters who wound up surging.
As far as anime, I haven't watched much of it (just the mainstream stuff.. akira, princess monanoke, etc.) and I son't really see how the surge makes sr into an anime game.
I definitely thought of the cat girl as having an erect feline body (ears at top of head etc.

Posted by: mdynna May 1 2006, 09:01 PM

The other option would be to just remove the particular SURGE effects that you don't like. It was also my understanding from reading YotC that drastic effects like the "complete cat" transformation were rare among the "changlings."

Posted by: mfb May 1 2006, 09:10 PM

*shrug* watch more anime. or don't. either way, a lot of people view SURGE as an incursion of catgirls with pastel hair and cute little tails. if you don't, sweet--have fun with it. but SURGE irks the hell out of me. i mean, come on. a marsupial pouch!?

Posted by: Dissonance May 1 2006, 09:13 PM

It's the perfect place to put your Puzzler. Or possibly a club sandwich.

Posted by: mfb May 1 2006, 09:17 PM

mar. supial. pouch.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 1 2006, 09:30 PM

sounds... sticky.

Posted by: Geekkake May 1 2006, 09:47 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

sounds... sticky.

And prone to infections. Maybe I will allow it.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 1 2006, 10:58 PM

"You know that sandwitch you stashed in your pouch in case the run ran late? Yeah, uh... roll Willpower to see if you still want to eat it."

Posted by: hobgoblin May 1 2006, 11:15 PM

just make sure to wrap it in plastic first...

Posted by: Dissonance May 1 2006, 11:29 PM

I don't know if I should be amused or offended if you think I'd eat something from what's basically a giant, easily accessable orifice on my body without wrapping it in plastic, first.

Besides, there's a similar thing in bioware in SR4 that I've considered. It sounds like a great place to put illegal things.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 1 2006, 11:40 PM

If you're talking about the skin pouch, I think the difference is that the skin pouch isn't a mucous membrane.

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 12:14 AM

yeah. it's the difference between carrying something under your arm and carrying something in the gigantic nose that is on your belly.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 2 2006, 01:27 AM

so it will be a big soggy, big deal

Posted by: phasmaphobic May 2 2006, 06:11 AM

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

I totally agree. That entire YotC bulldrek was just too much for me. Catgirls? Furries? Dragons taking over cities? Zombie invasion? Seaquest? Space race?

It's like someone let the writers of "The Legend of Zu" write a Shadowrun sourcebook. The writers jerked off with that book just a little too much for my tastes, taking the shadowrun world from kitschy cyberfantasy to "BEAR IS DRIVING HOW CAN THAT BE?!?" anime-wannabe roleplaying.

Then again, in my world, Chicago is still Bug City, hands down the most s=awesome sourcebook evarrrr.

Posted by: phasmaphobic May 2 2006, 06:16 AM

QUOTE (mfb)

i saw one guy create Big Bird.

You have completely changed my mind in favor of Surge, using only seven words.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 2 2006, 06:29 AM

QUOTE (phasmaphobic)

That entire YotC bulldrek was just too much for me. Catgirls? Furries? Dragons taking over cities? Zombie invasion? Seaquest? Space race?

What, did you miss the rest of the history? Ya know, dragons taking over cities, shapeshifter furries, insect spirit invasion, arcologies, and toxic races?

Seriously, how is the probe race not totally logical? It kinda happened when Mars was closest. Earth sent like 4 probes to the fucking rock. I mean, I get the arguments against the rest, really I do. But the probe race? Come on!

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 06:42 AM

i have to disagree, on the shapeshifter-furry thing. they have animal forms, and they have human forms with occasional features that are vaguely reminiscent of their animal forms. they're not furries.

i don't even have a problem with cyberhorns, cybertails, and the like. technofetishistic imitation of trends is cool. magical transformations into catgirls is where i draw the line.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 2 2006, 06:50 AM

Meh, with SR4 cosmetic rules, the transformation isn't all that magical.

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 06:51 AM

no, i mean literally magical. caused by mana thingies. replacing your hair with optical fibers that give you glowy purple manga hair is okay. getting hit with a mana spike that gives you violet hair is right out.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 2 2006, 06:58 AM

Well, ok then, what about using blood magic to alter one's form? Or corrupt adepts? Dragons used blood magic to create drakes, neh? Couldn't one create a catgirl from blood magic and genetech? It seriously didn't bother me, but I came up with http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=2953, too. I think YotC should have focused more on the... mistakes, but who really wants their characters inflicted with melt-face or one-ear?

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 07:25 AM

QUOTE (mfb)

SR Shadowrun Game, FASA authorised

Kitsune

Nuff said

Posted by: Dissonance May 2 2006, 07:35 AM

I see shapeshifters as being more like old school werewolves. In that they're animals first, that just happen to be a little smarter than the average bear. They're not really suitable for PCs, in that you might as well try to play an insect spirit of a hellhound.

Completely alien thought process, compared to humans. As for freaking yourself out through cyber? I had a shaman do that in order to get closer to his totem. He used Physical Mask near-religiously when on the job.

Then again, I'm hardly a bastion of sanity. I tried to figure out how to make Ruth Skin a viable runner concept. I couldn't explain it beyond Gangers Somehow Highjack Milspec Cyber Shipment, and one of the things in the truck was that. Nobody else wanted it, so she took it.

Getting naked anywhere outside of the sprawl is, amusingly, suicide.

Posted by: juggertroll May 2 2006, 12:45 PM

SURGE = Cat girls anime phobia paranoia extreme!!!!!

Go to the center of the question: use SURGE or not, thats the final point. If you like anime style, go for it. If you like x-men, go for it. If you like random magic mutations and the social racist problems, go for it. And If you dont like SURGE, terminate from your SR game.

I like the SURGE using the ramdom magic approach, but i like a little anime too. That how i will use SURGE im my games.

Posted by: The ubbergeek May 2 2006, 01:59 PM

A bit hypocritical; tech-based comsetic changes are ok, but not magical ones if random, in a way it use noneless the game's 'You are NOT in control, not even of yourself' side. Meh. *rolling eyes*

Posted by: Geekkake May 2 2006, 03:18 PM

QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

That'd be me. But I'm weird like that. I like gimping my characters.

It probably comes from constantly watching PCs cripple and murder my NPCs.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 2 2006, 05:06 PM

It is easy to take SURGE in an anime catgirl direction but it is just as easy to take it in a downtroden Martian mutants from Total Recall direction. Like everything about Shadowrun it can be both seriously depressing and lightheartedly absurd, often simultaneously.

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 05:56 PM

QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

Well, ok then, what about using blood magic to alter one's form? Or corrupt adepts? Dragons used blood magic to create drakes, neh? Couldn't one create a catgirl from blood magic and genetech?

you'll have to point me to where blood magic allows you to alter your form. corrupt adepts turn into monsters, generally speaking, not BESM rejects. drakes aren't furries. as for genetech, like i said, technofetishism is cool.

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)

Kitsune

you could call that furry, or you could call that homage to the actual myths about kitsune.

i fail to see how my stance is "hypocritical". i don't like magical anime-esque transformations in my SR. that's a pretty clear stance; i'm not going back on it by disincluding technofetishism from it, because technofetishism is not, by definition, included. as for being "not in control, even of yourself", maybe you missed the section in YotC where it says you can choose SURGE traits as edges and flaws. with a new character, you have direct control of what SURGE effects you take.

i probably wouldn't dislike SURGE so much if it hadn't been presented the way they presented it. if they'd have kept the whole anime thing in the background, let players come up with their own ideas about how SURGE affects people? that would have made things much better. but instead, they splash a freakin' catgirl right up there in everyone's face. moreover, rather than actually playing up the negative social side effects of SURGE, they carefully boxed up all the prejudice and hatred towards changelings inside 'straight' society, and basically said that counterculture elements (like, say, shadowrunners!) all think SURGE is the hottest thing since fission. in other words, the only people who are likely to hate your newly-SURGEd character are people who would have already hated him anyway. goodbye gritty social disorder, hello cardboard cutout good guys and bad guys.

Posted by: Perssek May 2 2006, 06:56 PM

Well, sometimes it´s a matter of taste. Me and my players juts LOVE anime, but we never RPG´ed it. Well, there was that supers campaign, but was only one time. And it wasn´t silly, I must assure you.

The main consense among us seems to be that while anime (and catgirls, and whatever anime throws in your way) can be fun indeed, role-playing it is another thing entirely.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 07:17 PM

Mfb Furry is a devolved form of the very legends you reference

Although IMHO Anime + Shadowrun should reference Akira, not Nuku Nuku

after all Kenada = gang leader type runner

Tetsuo = twisted mage who getsfucked up by an Aztechnology Bioexperiment designed to make UBER mages

Posted by: hyzmarca May 2 2006, 07:23 PM

QUOTE (mfb @ May 2 2006, 12:56 PM)

QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

Well, ok then, what about using blood magic to alter one's form? Or corrupt adepts? Dragons used blood magic to create drakes, neh? Couldn't one create a catgirl from blood magic and genetech?

Drakes are scallies; ithe difference is academic considering the voluminous collections of dragon porn to be found on Fchan.

In some ways, Shadowrun is decidedly similar to Tank Police. You've got the megaplexes and the sprawl, you've got hardcore police SWAT teams with excessive firepower, you've got genetic engineering, biological implants, and cyberware. The catgirls just round it out.

"If you want less crime then give us more tanks." - anonymous Lonestar officer

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 07:43 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Drakes are scallies...

whoah, when did we start delving into hentai? sure, there's anime involving people who turn into dragons, but that hardly makes people who turn into dragons (and vice-versa) an anime thing. D&D has dragons who take human form, and so do a lot of other western fantasy stories. anime also features beings with five fingers. that hardly makes hands an icon of anime.

furries are a fairly specific and fairly evolved derivation of those myths, Kremlin KOA. the kitsune is taken from the myth itself.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 07:47 PM

"I'm a Shapeshifter, silly. What? Never seen a 'fox' before?"

She says, while wearing a LEATHER THONG BIKINI

Tell me the character had no Furry connotations.

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 07:53 PM

wait, you're talking about the SNES video game!? sweet christ, that game had nothing to do with SR. FASA authorized it, yes, but you might have noticed that the game breaks canon with the same frequency that most people breathe.

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 08:02 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

you might have noticed that the game breaks canon with the same frequency that most people breathe.

Unless you've got a lot of people in your area dead from asphyxiation you may want to reconsider that remark. Sure, it wasn't always canon (no video games I've seen ever are), but a lot of it was ok.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 08:03 PM

Really? going back over it...

Misnames Renraku as Aneki Corp

Main Char ends half way to burnout but has so many initiations it doesn't matter

uses a different stat mechanic

mechanically not too similar

Setting:

2050s Check
magic came back: Check
You == Sinless Loser: Check
Stuff gone to Shit before game starts: Check
Spells and fetishes: Check
Shamans have Totems: Check
Shaman Mage difference shown through RP: Check
Cortex Bomb left by evil Johnson: Check
Lesser Dragon has enough clout to get Lesser Megacorp: Check
Ghouls are nasty: Check (back in 1st ed and early 2nd ed the social implications were les looked into)
Renraku tinkering with AIs and need to be bitch slapped: Check

In the end it was a bastardized version of the Secrets of Power books.

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 08:05 PM

it was okay. it was a fun game. but lord a'mighty, it wasn't canon, and trying to argue a canon point with the SNES game (or the Sega game, for that matter) as your basis is like building your house on empty, open air. it doesn't even have the stability one
normally associates with quicksand.

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 08:06 PM

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)

Main Char ends half way to burnout but has so many initiations it doesn't matter

That can be done in canon, it just requires a lot of karma.

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 08:07 PM

wow. okay, Kremlin. if you want to view the SNES game as canon, have fun.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 08:08 PM

Fine ya want Canon
Striper
Used her frigging tiger form with a squeeze once

Then he betrayed her, and she had to kill him

Posted by: hyzmarca May 2 2006, 08:09 PM

It has 80s flavor. That excuses everything. SURGE can have 80s flavor if inflimented correctly. It can also have wierd internet porn flavor. The same can be said for may shadowrun concepts.

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 08:10 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

It can also have wierd internet porn flavor. The same can be said for may shadowrun concepts.

Like miniguns (don't ask).

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 08:11 PM

bestiality != furry. kinda related, but different species of ew, gross. besides, again, to call the novels canon is to stretch the point.

i would argue that SURGE has weird internet porn flavor by default, given the fact that one of the articles was an interview with a catgirl porn star. like i said, a big part of the reason i dislike SURGE is the presentation.

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 08:16 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

to call the novels canon is to stretch the point.

Then what is canon if it isn't the narratives approved by FASA to explain, describe, explore, and give history to its game world? Why does being in a 4" x 6" paperback format make them less viable than the narratives in the 8" x 11.5" paperbacks?

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 08:20 PM

mainly because the things that come up in the 4" by 6" paperbacks are batshit insane, and often directly contravene what's presented in the 8" by 11.5" books. Terminus Experiment, anyone? how about the two instances in novels where someone regrew their Essence? how about Worlds Without End, where it basically stated that shamans are just self-deluded hermetic mages?

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 08:25 PM

There are lots of batshit insane things in the core books as well. Are those not canon?

Terminus Experiment: I vaguely remember this one but don't recal anything being horribly wrong with it that couldn't be explained.

Regrowing essence: don't recall this, nor the mechanism behind it.

Shamen vs. Hermetics: did it state this as a fact or as an opinion of a character in the book? I'm guessing the latter, in which case the only thing that tells you is what that particular character thinks about shamen.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 08:37 PM

MFB fine canon == 8 x 11.5

Then Shadowrun has had a dodgy internet porn flavour since 1st ed

Or have people forgotten the child prostitute trying to turn tricks on the PCs in Sprawl Sites?

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 08:38 PM

the batshit insane things in the core books aren't in direct contravention with the core material. they are the core material.

in Terminus Experiment, you had hundreds of metahumans infected with HMHVV who all turned into human-style vampires. vampires were also 'evil', even the one who'd been modified so he didn't feed on the essence of others to live.

regrowing essence occured twice. i can't recall the first novel, but it happened to a cybered-up ganger who became a bear shaman. some all-powerful spirit possessed him and melted away his cyberware, regrowing his essence in the process. the second time, it happened in one of Kenson's novels. some chick SURGEd and regrew her cybereyes.

as for Worlds Without End, it was admittedly an opinion--the opinion of an immortal elf with enough magical power and knowledge that she was able to cast spells before the Awakening. in other words, a pretty credible witness as far as these things go.

let's see, what else... how about having a spirit of light possess a cyberdeck? i know i'd want that in my games.

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)

Then Shadowrun has had a dodgy internet porn flavour since 1st ed

when did i say dodgy internet porn didn't belong in SR?

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 08:45 PM

Haven't read Terminus but was it to do with that british org that was Bio engineering new strains of HMHVV?

The novel you are missing is Nosferatu, another evil Vampire in that one. and it was a Troll Street Samurai that awakened under bear.

Ah yes, remember it was an ED Crossover book, and in ED Shamans are just deluded mages. Also in the TT book, it hints that Totems are merely poor reflections of the Passions. SO, yes, that one IS canon by your definition.

and the Lucifer Deck Scenario? why not? Free spirit that can doo serious matrix harm as plot device, need to find neophyte shaman with true name on her arm and get her to banish the damn thing before work goes to shhit and matrix dies. Wouldn't let a PC summon one, ever.

and before people ask, yes I am trying for my next belt in AH-Fu the art of knowing more shadwrun backstory than is really good for me.

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 08:46 PM

The evil part is obvious for the ones that feed on humans. It could have been a choice on the part of the one that didn't need essence, or it could have been a side effect of the experimentation. In those days, HMHVV vampires were evil. If you want good vampires, play WoD.

Regrowing essence: The first example, how do we know he regrew essence? Did it use the word essence, or did he just regain lost magic, perhaps through an instant initiation.

The second: she regrew cyberware, not essence (at least according to your quote, I never read the book). That definitely sounds odd, but I don't know a lot about SURGE, so I don't know if that's something it could figuratively do.

WWE: Yeah, we should believe everything the Immortal Elves tell us.

Spirit possession: spirits have been possessing objects in myths and legends for a long time. Shadowrun, whose premise includes the idea that some myths and legends spring up because of mana spikes, already includes the possibility that some spirits can possess objects. They can possess corpses, which are just objects with a lower threshold.

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 08:57 PM

vampires were no more evil in those days than they are now, in SR. so vampires kill people to survive. so what? so do shadowrunners.

in the first example, the cyberware was "getting in the way", so the spirit removed it. once removed, the spirit was more able to use the shaman's magic. sounds like regrowing essence to me. in the second example, i believe it worked pretty much the same way. i haven't read the book, though, so i could be wrong.

i'm not talking about just possessing objects. i'm talking about a spirt of light (which, okay, what the hell is that in the first place?) possessing a cyberdeck, and making it uberbadass crazy. no thanks.

i'd be able to come up with more examples if i hadn't systematically attempted to remove the parts of my brain in which memories of the novels are stored. i mostly just remember me screaming "NOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" while stabbing my own skull frantically with a fork.

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 09:02 PM

One slightly off-topic aside: neither vampires nor shadowrunners kill to survive. They can both live without ever having someone die because of their actions.

Back on topic: So basically what you're saying is that if you can't personally explain it using the rules presented in the core books it can't possibly be right? Interesting, albeit flawed, line of reasoning.

What if a rule comes out in a future book that explains it? Does it suddenly become canon?

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 09:06 PM

i'm saying that if i have to choose between what it says in the sourcebooks and what it says in a novel, the novel's going to lose every time. and because of that, i'm going to take a dim view of attempts to use novels as arguments that such-and-such is canon.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 09:09 PM

The Spirit of light never made a deck crazy, it merely caused serious damage to the matrix
Mitsuhama tried, and failed, to teach it to copy the patterns of light it found in computers and bring them back for mitsuhama to read

They figured they could make an unstoppable hacking tool with it

It never possessed a deck

Oh and MFB, how man times were things add/altered in the sourcebooks to fit in with a novel

THe wolf and raven stuff

Professor S confirming that Elven Nosferatu could exist, under rare circumstances

The HKB Transys stinkup

the list is far longer than that

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 09:10 PM

You wanting it to not be canon doesn't change the fact that it is. Closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't change the world, it just makes you look silly.

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 09:13 PM

then there are a hell of a lot of SR players who look silly. i'm not saying that if it's in a novel, it can't be canon. i'm saying that the fact that it's in a novel doesn't make it canon.

regardless, none of this has much to to with the fact that SURGE sucks.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 09:17 PM

nonono
I see the problem

MFB, it is the SURGEd Catgirl that sucks, and she is pretty good at it

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 09:24 PM

heh. the catgirl's only half... okay, maybe three-quarters of it. the catgirl makes SURGE an anime-esque thing, bringing to mind all kinds of cutesy crap that just doesn't fit very well. the other part of it is the fact that any elements of social issues and prejudice were completely undermined by the article about how popular changelings are. the hysterical and depressing part of that is that SURGE was, from what i understand, supposed to kickstart hate crime stuff in SR. it was supposed to be "oh no SURGE! kill the metahumans!" but instead, it became "zomg teh SURGE catgurl purpel hair w00t!"

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 09:27 PM

Funny, I never thought of the japanese prepubescent catgirls from that article

I thought of the original catgirl

Catwoman

you know, the Batman Villainess

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 09:30 PM

that's a pretty weird leap. Catwoman doesn't have fur, or a tail. she's a thief who dresses in a funny costume, not a half-animal whose sole purpose is to look sexy.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 09:32 PM

dude
read her backstory

she has cat like abilities

Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 09:34 PM

i've read her backstory. she's got a whip, a grudge, and a fetish. she doesn't have any superpowers--very few of Batman's major enemies do.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 2 2006, 10:37 PM

Is anyone here familiar with the comedy of Sarah Silverman? She wanted to avoid jury duty so she decided to write an etnic slur on the questionare. She was going to write "I hate chinks" but she didn't want anyone to think that she was a racist as she wrote "I love chinks" instead.

Around the middle of the 19th century Minstrel Shows and black folk music were rather popular in the United States. Now, the US at the time, both Narth and South, was a horrificly racist country with a horrificly racist culture. The fact that black and faux-black performers were popular does nothing to diminish this racism it mearly puts the racism in context.

The "We love changlings" sentiment is no less racist than the "We love niggers" sentiment of white Americans during and after the era of slavery.

The thing about racism is that it has nothing to do with hate. The whole hate stuff is a rather recent invention in response to percieved political injustices. The basis of racism is the belief that one ethnic group is simply inferior to your own.
That percieved inferiority can easily produce a facination with the inferior group and its culture but it can never produce identification.

The thoughts of the vast majority of the "OMG catgirls" crowd could easily be summed up as the fllowing:
Changlings can enterain us because they are freekish and inferior and we all want to gt to know one. We'd certainly fuck one if given half a chance. But we'd never take one seriously.

Now, just to round things out, honkey, spic, cracker, towel-head, slope,kike, eskimo. If I havn't offended your ethnic group please inform me and I'll add the appropriate slur. I try to be an equal-opportunity offender.

Posted by: Geekkake May 2 2006, 11:08 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Is anyone here familiar with the comedy of Sarah Silverman? She wanted to avoid jury duty so she decided to write an etnic slur on the questionare. She was going to write "I hate chinks" but she didn't want anyone to think that she was a racist as she wrote "I love chinks" instead.

Around the middle of the 19th century Minstrel Shows and black folk music were rather popular in the United States. Now, the US at the time, both Narth and South, was a horrificly racist country with a horrificly racist culture. The fact that black and faux-black performers were popular does nothing to diminish this racism it mearly puts the racism in context.

The "We love changlings" sentiment is no less racist than the "We love niggers" sentiment of white Americans during and after the era of slavery.

The thing about racism is that it has nothing to do with hate. The whole hate stuff is a rather recent invention in response to percieved political injustices. The basis of racism is the belief that one ethnic group is simply inferior to your own.
That percieved inferiority can easily produce a facination with the inferior group and its culture but it can never produce identification.

The thoughts of the vast majority of the "OMG catgirls" crowd could easily be summed up as the fllowing:
Changlings can enterain us because they are freekish and inferior and we all want to gt to know one. We'd certainly fuck one if given half a chance. But we'd never take one seriously.

Now, just to round things out, honkey spic, cracker, towel-head. If I havn't offended your ethnic group please inform me and I'll add the appropriate slur. I try to be an equal-opportunity offender.

You forgot slopes and kikes.

That aside, your post is extremely accurate and well-considered, and I applaud you.

Posted by: bustedkarma May 2 2006, 11:13 PM

I think you also missed Eskimos.

Good post Hyz.

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 11:27 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

The whole hate stuff is a rather recent invention in response to percieved political injustices.

If by "recent" you mean "almost as long as recorded history."

Posted by: Apathy May 2 2006, 11:28 PM

[Deleted because I sounded too 'preachy'.]

Posted by: ronin3338 May 2 2006, 11:40 PM

QUOTE (Geekkake)

Now, just to round things out, honkey spic, cracker, towel-head. If I havn't offended your ethnic group please inform me and I'll add the appropriate slur. I try to be an equal-opportunity offender. [/QUOTE]
You forgot slopes and kikes.

That aside, your post is extremely accurate and well-considered, and I applaud you.

As a Nip, I put to you that slope is too general... I don't want to be confused with Chinks or Gooks.

You Round-Eyes are so funny.

Seriously, we talked on another thread about the racism in Japan (and most Asian countries) and I don't think America is nearly as bad... However, we also tend to think of ourselves as "Racist? Not me!" while continuing to show racist attitudes (But I have friends who are black!) It's this double-standard that drives me insane, and also keeps us from realizing just how racist we truly are.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 2 2006, 11:48 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 2 2006, 06:27 PM)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 2 2006, 05:37 PM)

The whole hate stuff is a rather recent invention in response to percieved political injustices.

If by "recent" you mean "almost as long as recorded history."

It is rare for oppressors to activly hate oppressed groups because the oppressors have all the power. Hate is generally a response to some percieved wrong or injustice or fear of such an wrong. Hate politics can only take root when the opressed group is given or tries to take some measure of equality on a wide scale.

When the the opressors have all the power they tend to see the relationship as a cooperative "Us and Them" With us being the benevolent masters an Them being the happy slaves because they can't be anything else. It is only when the oppressors are threatened that it turns into "Us vs Them" with Us being the bastion of civilization and Them being savages who will rape our wives and eat our babies then rape their wives and eat their babies.

QUOTE (bustedkarma)

I think you also missed Eskimos.

Good post Hyz.

Few people know that "Eskimo" is derived from a racial slur. Blame it on ignorant white people and their translators.

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 11:54 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Hate politics can only take root when the opressed group is given or tries to take some measure of equality on a wide scale.

So you think the Romans loved all of the people they captured and took as slaves? Heck, you think they even liked them?

Posted by: Geekkake May 3 2006, 12:03 AM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 2 2006, 06:48 PM)

Hate politics can only take root when the opressed group is given or tries to take some measure of equality on a wide scale.

So you think the Romans loved all of the people they captured and took as slaves? Heck, you think they even liked them?

That's very black-and-white. The fact is, they regarded them as sub-Roman, which might as well mean sub-human. A dog is sub-human, but you don't hate it. You might not like it, either. A subject is a subject.

Posted by: James McMurray May 3 2006, 12:06 AM

Regarding someone as subhuman isn't racial hatred? Okely dokely. I guess we'll just agree to disagree then.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 3 2006, 12:10 AM

QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 2 2006, 06:54 PM)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 2 2006, 06:48 PM)

Hate politics can only take root when the opressed group is given or tries to take some measure of equality on a wide scale.

So you think the Romans loved all of the people they captured and took as slaves? Heck, you think they even liked them?

Well, they certainly sexed up enough of them.

I imagine they felt several types of feelings, apathy, distain, pity, condescension, an docasionally fear. I don't believe that there were neo-nazi groups making political protests and randomly killing other people's slaves.

QUOTE

Regarding someone as subhuman isn't racial hatred? Okely dokely. I guess we'll just agree to disagree then.

Nope, not at all. It is posible to like someone you think is subhuman. Most people like dogs but few want to confer equal rights upon them.

Humanity or lackthereof is a value judgement often supported by pseudoscience and made with some dispassion. Hate is a pure visceral emotional reaction involving extreme longterm fear and anger.

Posted by: James McMurray May 3 2006, 12:25 AM

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. Well, we don't have to, but I have.

Posted by: ronin3338 May 3 2006, 12:35 AM

I see what hyzmarca is saying. Sometimes prejudice doesn't manifest as hate or violence. Sometimes it manifests as a "pat on the head" for the poor person who isn't the "right" color/religion/whatever and a general attitude of "I'm sorry you're underprivileged, but that's how it is"

Posted by: mfb May 3 2006, 12:41 AM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Changlings can enterain us because they are freekish and inferior and we all want to gt to know one. We'd certainly fuck one if given half a chance. But we'd never take one seriously.

if that's how they'd been presented, that would work. but they weren't. they were presented as being actually cool and popular. nary a word was said about how changelings can't get jobs in the shadows because nobody takes them seriously. from what was presented in YotC, there are two commonly-held views on changelings: either they're the work of the deevul and need to be burnt with fire (i kinda favor this one myself), or they're EXTREEEEEEEME and to be emulated.

Posted by: James McMurray May 3 2006, 12:49 AM

QUOTE (ronin3338)

I wasn't disagreeing with that, I was disagreeing with the idea that racial hatred is a new concept. It is definitely possible for racism to appear in ways that even look like kindness, affirmitive action for example.

Posted by: ronin3338 May 3 2006, 01:03 AM

Ah, I see... yep, hate's as old as it gets.

"Hey Abel, nice offering. Look over there!" *whack*

Posted by: Dissonance May 3 2006, 02:32 AM

Just, wow.

I've read this page three times, now, and every time, my eyes just sort of glaze over.

I've seen this argument before on other messageboards, but it just never ceases to boggle my mind. Disliking (or liking) something imaginary is on the same scale as real-world racism.

Posted by: mfb May 3 2006, 02:35 AM

hahah, okay. let's go home guys, Dissonance says we're not allowed to like things!

edit: i tried really hard to be offended at being compared to a racist because i dislike imaginary things, but it just doesn't work. can you come up with something that's a little less retarded? i'll make the effort, if you will.

Posted by: Dissonance May 3 2006, 02:57 AM

I'm not claiming that.

I thought that was the whole point of this discussion. If it's not, I apologize. However, I have seen such discussions where that _is_ the point.

My position is that such a position is batshit insane.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 3 2006, 03:18 AM

The racism parts were discussing imaginary racism by imaginary people against real-to-them imaginary people in their real-to-them imaginary world.

I hope that clears up any confusion.

Posted by: mfb May 3 2006, 03:25 AM

okay, i'm a bit confused. what exactly is it that you're saying it's batshit insane to like or dislike, Dissonance? because from what you've said, it sounds like you're bashing people who like or dislike fiction--a position which is, i have to say, batshit insane.

Posted by: Dissonance May 3 2006, 03:27 AM

Clear as mud, hyzmarca.

Between encroaching finals and a fading eyeglass perscription, I'm lucky that I can make ramen without setting my hair on fire.

Okay. I'll try and clarify things.

I think the idea of real-world people who consider Imaginary People Racism with Real People Racism to be laughable.

I do not find anything wrong with using the former as a literary device. Using real world racism as a literary device makes me a bit uncomfortable, in all honesty, but I'm not about to burn a copy of Huck Finn.

Actually pulling a Fred Phelps and calling for the death of all mud people? Utterly reprehensible and vile.

In the current discussion? I find the idea of disliking SURGE equating to disliking a real world nationality to laughable.

And for the record? I don't care either way about SURGE. I think it's neat, but if I wanted to have fox ears and feathers, I'd use bioware.

Posted by: mfb May 3 2006, 04:14 AM

oh, okay. well, that makes sense. i thought you meant something else completely. it confused me because it was completely out of line with everything else i've seen you post. sorry.

Posted by: Dissonance May 3 2006, 04:33 AM

No harm, no foul. However, if you'd rather me be a slavening, tromping, pooping wildebeest on the forums, I'd happily oblige.

EDGE RUINS THE GAME.
FIREARMS ARE BROKEN.
MAGIC IS BETTER THAN MUNDANES.
MUNDANES ARE BETTER THAN MAGIC.
TECHNOMANCERS.
SWORDFISH MUSTARDBALL BUTTERY BROWN NIPPLES.
CANON.

Okay. I'm all done.

Posted by: Geekkake May 3 2006, 05:07 AM

QUOTE (Dissonance @ May 2 2006, 11:33 PM)

You forgot us heavy roleplayers who gimp our characters for a challenge and/or to feel superior to other players.

I HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT

I WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU

Posted by: Dissonance May 3 2006, 05:16 AM

Feeling superior through your inferiority?

Just kidding. I love you. How can I not love somebody named Geekkake? That's the single greatest name ever.