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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Dart gun?

Posted by: PH3NOmenon Apr 27 2006, 09:28 PM

There are alot of injected vector toxins in SR4, but i can't find any reference to a dart gun...

am i just blind?

Also, how do you deal with such darts? do you have to deal at least 1 box of damage and do these weapns have a very low dv or something?

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 27 2006, 09:43 PM

For the moment, I'm essentially using Tasers as dart guns (same range, etc). All you need is a net hit to nail the person, but they get to roll reaction + impact when trying not to get hit, not just reaction. Unaware targets, of course, don't get to roll against the attack.

Posted by: stevebugge Apr 27 2006, 09:45 PM

Now that you mention it the Narcoject Rifle is conspicuously absent from the BBB

Posted by: ronin3338 Apr 27 2006, 09:48 PM

You could use the grapple gun rules, just call it a really big dart...

Seriously though, my character uses the Squirt. I never liked the Narcojet, and I'd rather try to hit skin or permeable clothing than punch through even weak armor with a dart.

Posted by: dcpirahna Apr 27 2006, 09:50 PM

It's a house rule of yours so I'm just asking opinion.

Unless the attack is an aimed shot to avoid hitting armor, why wouldn't you let an unaware defender still roll impact? An aimed shot I can understand not allowing a roll since they're hitting a fleshy area, but if you just narcojet me without an aimed shot and hit my full body armor + helmet, there's a decent chance it's wouldn't get through.

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 27 2006, 10:25 PM

I'm working on the assumption that with an unaware target at a max range of 20 meters or so, it's not particularly hard to just pop the guy in exposed flesh, and it let me neatly roll the houserule into the "unaware folks don't get to defend against attacks" clause. I'd probably allow the rolling of Impact in a situation like the one you describe (where there really isn't an unarmored location to aim for).

If the target was unaware of the tranqing shooter, but *was* defending against someone else (that is, moving around and generally being a pain in the ass to hit) I'd probably allow the Impact dice.

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 27 2006, 10:27 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

it's not particularly hard to just pop the guy in exposed flesh

That's exactly what giving up dice to avoid armor is. You're basically letting them make a called shot without having to take the called shot penalties.

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 27 2006, 10:48 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 27 2006, 05:25 PM)

it's not particularly hard to just pop the guy in exposed flesh

That's exactly what giving up dice to avoid armor is. You're basically letting them make a called shot without having to take the called shot penalties.

That's true. However, it's not a part of the mechanic that armor usually even applies to. Hm...

How's this sound, instead:

Target rolls Reaction + half Impact to avoid being struck. Unaware targets don't get to use their Reaction on this test. One net hit is required to strike the target in a location the dart is capable of penetrating and succesfully injecting it's cargo.

Posted by: PH3NOmenon Apr 27 2006, 11:03 PM

wouldn't ballistic armor also help against something as fragile as a dart?

Posted by: ronin3338 Apr 27 2006, 11:13 PM

Ballistic armor tends to be a weave, and pointy things get through pretty easily.

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 27 2006, 11:15 PM

There's no real precedent for anything being resisted by ballistic AND impact armor except for some of the real oddball ammo types from SR3, and even the vast majority of those were resisted by either B or I. I figured that a dart was closer to an arrow than a bullet in terms of flight characteristics, and used the type of armor that resists arrows.

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 27 2006, 11:16 PM

... I'm dumb. There's an "Injection Arrow" in the BBB, isn't there? I'm at work, but someone go look it up

Posted by: stevebugge Apr 27 2006, 11:22 PM

Yes there is, under projectile weapons.

Does damage as a regular arrow, if it sucessfully deals at least 1 point it injects whatever it's payload is as per injection vector toxins on page 244.

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 27 2006, 11:24 PM

Well, we could just say Dartguns are light crossbows, then...

Posted by: stevebugge Apr 27 2006, 11:26 PM

Editted that in later, sorry. Should be, give the pistol or rifle an arbitrary strength and use appropriate pistol or rifle type ranges.

Posted by: stevebugge Apr 27 2006, 11:27 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 27 2006, 03:24 PM)

Well, we could just say Dartguns are light crossbows, then...

I guess in an abstract sense they are, only they replace a gas charge for the elastic energy of the bow.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 28 2006, 01:36 AM

bah, do it right. mix up a large batch of DMSO and the toxin of choice. then fill everything into a firetruck and use the pump and hose of said beast to saturate the target

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 28 2006, 01:58 AM

Generally speaking dart guns are easier to sneak around with then firetrucks.

Posted by: Dashifen Apr 28 2006, 01:25 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Generally speaking dart guns are easier to sneak around with then firetrucks.

Not with trid phantasm.

Posted by: dcpirahna Apr 28 2006, 02:14 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Generally speaking dart guns are easier to sneak around with then firetrucks.

Yes, but the latter allows you to pick up women. "Why no, that's not a firetruck in my pocket. I am just happy to see you."

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 28 2006, 03:19 PM

btw, who said anything about sneaking?
heavy combat armor, HMG's and panther's on gyro mounts, missile launchers. why go sneak when you can create the biggest bang there is?

Posted by: James McMurray Apr 28 2006, 03:24 PM

Because there's always a bigger bang lurking around the next corner hoping for a TPK.

Posted by: Splat Apr 28 2006, 03:50 PM

QUOTE

heavy combat armor, HMG's and panther's on gyro mounts, missile launchers. why go sneak when you can create the biggest bang there is?

Because Panthers aren't worthwhile. You can deal out more damage with stealthier weapons.

Posted by: BishopMcQ Apr 28 2006, 05:48 PM

Perhaps, but nothing says back the frag off like a panther cannon.

RE: Darts--If they have a DMSO mix, then I have the attack resolve as per normal with half-impact. (IE, if the defender is aware, they can use reaction to dodge etc.) Without the DMSO mix, I rule that they must make the called shot to bypass.

My players are comfortable with the mechanic until something comes out to replace it (hopefully in Arsenal or Augmentation) as it has a balanced logical approach.

Posted by: Shrike30 Apr 28 2006, 06:02 PM

I use Panthers in pretty much the same way anti-materiel rifles are used today. The hardasses who can sling and fire a Panther from the shoulder are few and far between, but if you get one of those things set up on a bipod or a smart mount somewhere, your ability to engage extremely heavy targets (like vehicles) out to fairly absurd ranges is wonderful. Sure, you can slap a suppressor, bipod, and a shock pad onto a scoped Ares Alpha, punch off a long burst of APDS, and be sitting on an 11/-6 hit with no recoil mod (slightly better than the 10/-5 of the PAC), but if that target happens to be a vehicle or something else that doesn't have a stun track, the whole "+DV from autofire doesn't help with punching through armor" rule is going to have your rifle ammo rattling off the hull, where a PAC would likely have punched a nice hole in a lot of the mid-range armored vehicles, mid-high force spirits, and all those other things that like to pack on the armor.