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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Knife fighting in SR3 or SR4
Posted by: Shadow Apr 28 2006, 06:40 PM
Knife fighting has always been a favorite of mine. Knives (to me) are scarrier then guns, mostly because I know how to handle a gun. SO I have two topics for discussion
1. What would be some of the RP aspects of a character who is a knife fighter.
2. What would be some of the cyberware/knives/skills etc you would want as a knife fighter.
Posted by: Aku Apr 28 2006, 06:45 PM
i have to admit, im not a big fan of the knife fighter, or melee in general, because, well, while i only took kung-fu for abut 6 months, one leason stuck with me... "doint take a knife to a gun fight", its just generally a bad idea lol, but thats RL, and doesnt have to be that way in a game.
If i were to RP a melee/knife figter, i'd prolly go the "Bloodier than thou" route, where he uses knifes because he finds guns to be too "easy" and gets a trill of having blood spilled all over him as he slashes through his enemies.
Posted by: hyzmarca Apr 28 2006, 06:47 PM
In SR3 you would want to have high STR and high skill. Speed doesn't matter much due to the way that SR3 melee works.
In real life you'd want high speed and high skill, STR doesn't matter much due to the knife's function as a force multiplier.
In SR4 you want high speed, high STR, high skill, basicly high everything.
Posted by: stevebugge Apr 28 2006, 06:49 PM
Interesting topic, I'll have to admit Knives tend to get little attention in my games. I would guess that this would be a prime area for a Physical Adept to shine. Knives are very versatile, able to be thrown or used in hand to hand combat. I guess Jim Bowie might be a good start for character qualities, but certainly not the only one.
Mechanically for SR4 a high agility is a must and good blades and throwing skill desirable. A knife fighter could probably make good use of athletics and acrobatics.
I'll have to give this some more thought, it's an interesting character idea.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Apr 28 2006, 06:53 PM
2) Depends on your approach. If you're going for a brawler-type knife fighter, you're going to want a long Cougar Fineblade. If you're going stealthy and you don't mind the fact that it isn't used like a traditional knife, go with a katar, otherwise a short Fineblade. Whatever you get, dikote™ it—many people forbid dikote™ing Fineblades, but there's nothing whatsoever in the rules to even hint at that.
For 'Ware, muscle aug is going to be the name of the game. Bioware is preferable, as it makes boosting skills into the stratosphere cheaper. A good knife fighter needs to be quick, limber, and able to think on their feet, so any attribute that will up Combat Pool is good as usual. If you're making a specialist, one often overlooked feature is reflex enhancements—they aren't as valuable as they are in ranged combat, but the ability to both win ties and dish out damage with dramatically increased frequency is quite valuable. Wear loose-fitting clothing to conceal your knives and the exact location of your body, and make sure you've got a lot of extra clothes—knife fighters go through clothing, it's what they do. You want to not get hit, of course, but carry iron supplements for when that isn't possible. Never bring a knife to a Trollfight.
Edit:
| QUOTE |
| In SR3 you would want to have high STR and high skill. Speed doesn't matter much due to the way that SR3 melee works. |
This isn't really true. Speed certainly isn't as important as it usually is, but it's pretty important—especially amongst equally-matched opponents. Also if fighting multiple opponents—the ability to take people out before they all get in and start giving each other Friends in Melee bonuses is really nice.
| QUOTE |
| In real life you'd want high speed and high skill, STR doesn't matter much due to the knife's function as a force multiplier. |
Eh. Like Speed in SR3, it certainly isn't the most important factor but that doesn't mean it isn't important. Being stronger than your opponent, especially much stronger, opens up a lot of avenues of attack.
~J
Posted by: James McMurray Apr 28 2006, 07:04 PM
Is there a martial arts style that uses knives and will let you apply the whirling technique to your knife fighting?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Apr 28 2006, 07:28 PM
Pentjak-Silat and Kung Fu.
~J
Posted by: nezumi Apr 28 2006, 08:52 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| In SR3 you would want to have high STR and high skill. Speed doesn't matter much due to the way that SR3 melee works. |
That's true when fighting against other melee opponents. Given he's likely to be fighting against guns or mages, either speed or stealth become *VERY* important. That combat pool is also going to come into play (to dodge).
Overall though, knives are ignored because, mechanically, they're pretty sucky. Why use a knife when a sword does more damage? Only very rarely will you find a knife is your preferred method of combat (they are stealthy, which is nice, but beyond that...) However, it is doable.
Posted by: Shadow Apr 28 2006, 09:40 PM
Maybe I am missing something. I can get a throwing knife to 11M. Isn't that more than a pistol?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Apr 28 2006, 09:45 PM
Yeah, you're missing something. You can get a throwing knife to at least 22M at chargen.
~J
Posted by: Voran Apr 28 2006, 09:47 PM
| QUOTE (Shadow) |
| Maybe I am missing something. I can get a throwing knife to 11M. Isn't that more than a pistol? |
I think the trade off, in SR3, is that while you could get the 11M base dmg, you'd have a slightly lesser chance of hitting than a pistol, due to no smartlink/lasersight type bonuses. Not too big of a diff, but it might affect things some.
Posted by: Shadow Apr 28 2006, 10:00 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Yeah, you're missing something. You can get a throwing knife to at least 22M at chargen. ~J |
Yeah but I am not Dock Funk, so no uber munchkinism for me
So other than not smartlink, there really isn't a big difference between a throwing knife that does 11M and a psitol... now that I think about it, is impact armor usually higher than ballistic or lower?
Posted by: stevebugge Apr 28 2006, 10:02 PM
Lower most of the time
Posted by: Anythingforenoughnuyen Apr 28 2006, 10:06 PM
One big question you need to think about-how broad is your definition of knife? If it is broad enough to include cyberspurs, that is probably the way to go, at least as far as Third Edition goes-that gives you 1.5 X Strength M [S with DiKote] damage [If you are more agro in chargen, and your GM openminded, you can even make a play to use the couger fineblade combat knife damage, as it is roughtly the same size as a spur and you can try to play it as a custom mod-and as mentioned above, I don't know of any rule that says that you can not slap a coat of DiKote on those sweat blades] Also, with the .3 essence cost for standard grade cyberware-depending on your resources and desire you can make those blades weapon foci and bond them to and adept [or mage with a lot of buffing/combat enhancing spells and sustaining foci].
whether or not you go with the spurs or a straight knife, if you have one or two cyberarms [two gives you bonus to body as well as the power of you're attacks, so I would recommend two in most circumstances], you can get cyberholsters hooked up to venom sacks, so either the spur or the blade comes out with a nice coat of the poison of your choice-which can be very nice for putting the bigger nasties down fast. Even if you go with the spur/cyber arm angle, I would still recommend gettin the cyber-holster and venom sac on that as well for the thown weapon angle.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Apr 28 2006, 10:15 PM
Impact armor is generally lower enough that it makes sense to trade off even for doubled Impact armor over Ballistic. You just get screwed now and then when you come up against a dedicated melee person.
~J
Posted by: Kanada Ten Apr 28 2006, 11:36 PM
In 4 you're going to want lots of initative passes to use full dodge (with a dodge of 5, specialized in Ranged, you'll be rolling 19 dice for dodging - assuming a reaciton 5). Use jammers to disable smartlinks and image enhancments (and drones!). And see if you can add shock frills to a knife.
Posted by: James McMurray Apr 29 2006, 09:06 AM
5 (reaction) + 7 (skill) is only +12 against guns. What am I missing? Unless you meant full melee dodge, in which case just tell me to shut up. 
Posted by: Kanada Ten Apr 29 2006, 09:15 AM
Me stoopid. 12 against ranged, 15 against melee. Makes you think an adept with Combat Sense might not be so bad. Actually, you can do 17 against melee with Blades 5 Specilized in Knives, and then Full Parry... (5 Reaction + 5 Dodge + 5 Blades +2 Specialization)?
Posted by: ChuckRozool Apr 29 2006, 09:32 AM
| QUOTE (Aku @ Apr 28 2006, 12:45 PM) |
| where he uses knifes because he finds guns to be too "easy" and gets a trill of having blood spilled all over him as he slashes through his enemies. |
This reminds me of Leon the Professional, not the "thrill of blood spilled..." part but the "finds guns to be too 'easy'" part.
Leon tells Matilda basically the better you get the closer to the target you can get. Start
out far away with sniper and eventually graduate to a knife. He didn't use a gun at the begining
of the film, when he delivers the message to that "drug-dealer mafioso" type guy. That
was sweet.
So... if I were to go with a "Knife Fighter", he'd be a seasoned hit man/company man. He'd
have enough cyber to keep him competitive and his skills would reflect that he knows how
to use most firearms, e.g., assault rifles, pistol, and rifles, but I would concentrate most of
his points towards the knife. Stealth would be very important as well as etiquette, allowing
him to "blend in" and go unnoticed where ever his job takes him.
As far as killing, well, he prefers the knife but he certainly isn't going to limit himself to it.
Anywho...
Posted by: mfb Apr 29 2006, 04:49 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Pentjak-Silat and Kung Fu. |
don't forget ninjitsu. *snicker*
Posted by: Dog Apr 29 2006, 05:05 PM
From a characterization aspect, I've always been amazed at the number of people I've met who carry a knife around with them to "protect" themselves. It's true that carrying a knife to a gun-fight is a bad idea, but the reverse is also true. Turning a Saturday-night fist-fight into a life-or-death situation is just as stupid.
What I'm getting at is that anybody who's using a knife is either an idiot or a real hardcore looking to kill somebody. A knife is an assassin's weapon.
Posted by: Shadow Apr 29 2006, 05:34 PM
Thats what I am talking about. Any idiot can carry a gun and think they are bad. But only a real bad ass carries a knife and knows hes bad.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Apr 29 2006, 05:38 PM
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
don't forget ninjitsu. *snicker* |
They don't get Whirling. Weird, no?
~J
Posted by: mfb Apr 29 2006, 08:27 PM
they don't? holy crap, they don't. what terrible ninjas they are.
oh, if you don't mind houserules, http://www.shadowland.org/Shadowland/The%20Shadowrun%20Datastore/objects/page1056.html allows the combination of whirling and edge weapons, as does Silat Mubai (second MA on the page).
Posted by: Dog Apr 29 2006, 11:27 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||||
They don't get Whirling. Weird, no? ~J |
I've seen enough movies to tell me that anybody elsewho fights a gang of ninjas somehow gets whirling.
Posted by: James McMurray Apr 29 2006, 11:28 PM
That's just crap. Ninjitsu should get every maneuver available and be able to apply it to any weapon they want except guns.
Posted by: Glyph Apr 29 2006, 11:51 PM
If you want a knife fighter in SR3, then you definitely want the ambidexterity Edge, which essentially increases your skill by a multiplier of 1.5. Also, in SR3, adepts tend to outshine nearly everyone else in combat, since they can start out with +6 dice at char-gen, to use in an opposed dice contest. For real nastiness, you can make an adept of the magical way, so that you start out with a weapon focus, too. Speed is relatively unimportant, but Strength matters a lot (orks, dwarves, and trolls are very effective, especially a troll, with the reach bonus), since it is a major factor in determining the Target Number your opponent resists. A dikoted Katar is about the best - (Str+4)M, Concealability: 7.
In SR4, sammies can come a lot closer to adepts. Adepts can actually start the game with bound weapon foci, though, so they might still get the nod if you commonly run into things like spirits. Agility becomes as important as skill, and specialization is a must (yeah, it's a lot cheaper after char-gen, but two extra dice from the get-go is worth 2 measly build points). Ambidexterity is cheaper, but no longer a must-have. For your Dodge skill, specialize in ranged, since you will probably be using Parrying for melee combat. Speed becomes more important, since you can only defend, not counterattack, when it isn't your action. Strength is slightly less important - it lets you do more base damage, but if you are winning at both attack and defense, you can whittle your opponent down eventually.
Posted by: James McMurray Apr 29 2006, 11:56 PM
I disagree about strength not being as important. Every point of strength will negate three points of body / armor on average as opposed to the one point of armor it would have negated in SR3.
Posted by: Findar Apr 30 2006, 12:13 AM
Definetly want to an adept. I would think a knife fighter would possibly be a ganger backround. An orc would be good. If you want a maxed character in SR3 would would throw some bioware in to your adept. Throwing knives are definetly competitive against psitols at short range until you come up against heavily armored targets. The APDS ammo wins over blades. Now if you play an adept a weapon focus wins against spirits which in our game are much more common opponents that opponents in heavy armor.
Posted by: James McMurray Apr 30 2006, 12:24 AM
No books handy, so I'm assuming that a knife in SR4 is Str + 1P. If so, then a strength of 5 or 6 would be able to overcome the immunity of a force 3 spirit. Every two net successes would increase the force of the spirit you're beating, so if you get 4 net successes you can hurt a force 5 spirit.
Maybe play an adept with improved ability (knives): 3, blades (knives) 6 (
, and agaility 6 (. The +2 agility would be from muscle toner. That would give you 19 dice to throw. I'd have a good edge as well (at least 4). You'll want it if someone does show up with a force 6 or higher spirit. Also be sure to get a gun skill. Assault Rifles have decent damage and range, with the range making up for the shortcomings fo the knife.
Posted by: Glyph Apr 30 2006, 12:28 AM
Strenth in SR3 mattered a bit more, to me, because it helped determine the TN that the target would use to resist the entire attack. Strength is still good in SR4, but I don't personally consider it quite as important as it was in SR3. A Strenth of 3 in SR4 means that your opponent doesn't have as much damage to resist, and is likelier to be taking stun damage. A strength of 3 in SR3 means that an opponent with any kind of impact armor at all will be rolling their resistance roll against a TN of 2.
Posted by: Glyph Apr 30 2006, 12:35 AM
By the way, on the spirit thing, you definitely want a weapon focus for an adept, even if it is Force: 1. Sure, enough successes let you affect a spirit, but a weapon focus negates immunity to normal weapons. In other words, if you are fighting a Force: 5 spirit, that's 10 dice that it won't be rolling to resist your attack.
Posted by: James McMurray Apr 30 2006, 01:13 AM
True, and a Force 1 focus for a reach 0 weapon is really cheap.
Posted by: mfb Apr 30 2006, 03:23 AM
eh? i thought that in SR4, you could get killing hands for melee weapons. doesn't that apply to spirits any more?
Posted by: Kanada Ten Apr 30 2006, 04:23 AM
Killing hands overcomes Immunity, and it's worth 5BP. A rating 1 focus (with reach or not) costs 11BP in SR4. The highest rating weapon focus for chargen is 2 due to avalibility. However, killing hands only works with unarmed combat.
Posted by: mfb Apr 30 2006, 04:30 AM
ah, so it does.
Posted by: Squinky Apr 30 2006, 06:24 AM
I thought of making a Brock Samson clone once in SR4, but it never really turned into anything. Still though, he is the man.
Posted by: Glyph Apr 30 2006, 08:35 PM
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Killing hands overcomes Immunity, and it's worth 5BP. A rating 1 focus (with reach or not) costs 11BP in SR4. The highest rating weapon focus for chargen is 2 due to avalibility. However, killing hands only works with unarmed combat. |
Where are you getting 11 build points from? A force one weapon focus costs 10,000 Nuyen (2 build points) plus one build point to bond it - that's a total of 3 build points. A force: 2 weapon focus would cost 6 build points.
They are both good. Weapon foci generally have better base damage (and sometimes reach), and give bonus dice to your attacks. Killing hands, however, don't need to be concealed and can't be stolen, and adding the critical strike power can make them extremely effective in combat.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Apr 30 2006, 11:33 PM
I think that IRL there are very few "knife fighters" because dueling with blades is insanely risky. My testicles crinkle just thinking about it. So from a role playing perspective I think that someone who was really knife-centric would have to be a bit nihilistic or mentally unhinged.
I actually know a guy who trained silat a lot and once went to jail after cutting up some guys with a broken bottle. He described the moment and the thing is that at the time he was doing this he was in assertive rage mode. He was being attacked by multiples and he was focused on not letting them get him. He wasn't in a blind rage because he was cautious, but he was definitely in the mental state of self preservation/standing up for the self at all costs no matter what.
I'd also recommend looking for Dog Brothers clips. The Dog Brothers are the closest people get to the best of my knowlege to sparring all out with live weapons. Maybe you can pick up certain mannerisms or physical postures from them.
Just to clarify, I've been a pretty serious martial arts hobbyist for almost 8 years now. Unlike a lot of McFlippy lite martial arts hobbyists I like to get hit. As of right now I do full contact sparring twice a week using only gloves, mouthpiece, and shinguards. No cup, no headgear, none of that extraneous stuff. I enjoy getting bruised.
Nevertheless, my testicles positively crinkle at the thought of trying to fight someone who is armed with a knife. Because knives are that deadly.
Posted by: TheHappyAnarchist May 1 2006, 04:47 PM
Actually, the thing I like about SR3 is that skill is the most important factor.
Really, as long as your strength is decent (4-5) the power on the knife, particularly dikoted variants, will usually be enough to make their resistance test tricky.
Bioware, particularly the increased skill type, Quickness Intelligence and Will to have a high combat pool, high initiative so that you can close to close quarters quickly.
Still, you won't find many knife-fighters outside of gangers as knives are not a combat weapon per se. They are mainly for stealth kills.
Posted by: Kagetenshi May 1 2006, 04:55 PM
Knives are good for self-defense because the best way to defend against a knife is to move away from the knife-wielder. In contrast, the best way to defend against a club or other blunt weapon is to move closer to the club-wielder. When one is defending oneself, anything that makes someone else back away is preferable to something that induces them to advance.
As always, individual technique errors, etc. can shift the most favoured response.
~J
Posted by: Lindt May 1 2006, 05:30 PM
Pretty much as above. As I learned at one point in my limited martial arts education, if 2 people get in a knife fight, one is going to the hospital, the other is going to the morgue.
Posted by: BnF95 May 1 2006, 05:37 PM
One of my players started making a Battusai clone ... which later morphed into the Elven (3-Star Michellin) chef with a rating 2 weapon foci (meat cleaver).
He took Adept, Exceptional Attribute (Agility), and Aptitude (Blades), maxed out on Agility and Blades (w/ specialization to Knives) for 17 dice. Plus his foci and his Improved Ability: Blades 4. Grand total of 23 dice pool when slicing and dicing. Somehow he was even able to fit in Artisan (Cooking) 4 (+2) in the character design. Too bad he forgot to learn to speak English. 
Posted by: mfb May 1 2006, 05:39 PM
he can cut people. who needs more communication than that?
Posted by: BnF95 May 1 2006, 05:43 PM
Well considering that he works in a Seattle hotel as a chef ... and all he speaks is French and Chinese ... I've been making him role-play trying to get into the shadows, the other players have already been in three runs this past 4 months and he still can't join them. 
Posted by: James McMurray May 1 2006, 06:22 PM
Why doesn't he just buy a French-English dictionary for his commlink? Sure, it'll be annoying, but after his first run he can use the karma to learn the language.
Posted by: BnF95 May 1 2006, 06:31 PM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Why doesn't he just buy a French-English dictionary for his commlink? Sure, it'll be annoying, but after his first run he can use the karma to learn the language. |
I'm waiting for the player to realize that.
I'm just having fun watching him attend the sessions and not be able to do anything because he thought that everyone speaks French and/or Chinese, after I specifically stated that the game was set in Seattle.
Posted by: Kanada Ten May 1 2006, 08:15 PM
And people think I'm mean.
Posted by: Shrike30 May 1 2006, 11:59 PM
| QUOTE (Dog @ Apr 29 2006, 09:05 AM) |
| I've always been amazed at the number of people I've met who carry a knife around with them to "protect" themselves. |
*shrug* It's not about stabbing every yahoo who takes a swing at you, it's about having options when you need them. I can't legally carry a firearm into a bar, into a federal building, on a schoolyard, or into a whole bunch of other places that I might care to go to. A 3.5" folding knife, though, is legal pretty much everywhere I go, since it doesn't qualify as a weapon here. Asides from the day-to-day handiness of having a knife on-hand, I also know I'm never going to end up in a situation where, should I feel the need, I don't have a knife on-hand.
Some guy takes a swing at me in a bar? I'm better off leaving. Some guy gets out of his car with a tire iron after he's been tailgating me for three blocks? Better off leaving. I find myself in a situation where I don't have a firearm, and I either don't have a solid exit route, or I'm with people who can't make the exit with me? I'd rather have the option of my knife than only have my fists.
I don't see knives as the weapon of an assassin, I see them as a weapon of last resort.
Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 12:05 AM
indeed. you use your knife to fight your way to your pistol, which you then use to fight your way to your gun.
Posted by: Shadow May 2 2006, 12:28 AM
Which you use to fight to you http://www.cloudster.com/sets&vehicles/Stripes/UrbanAssaultVehicleTop.htm.
A knife is a very dangerous weapon, and can be (in some ways) as dangerous as a gun. I am skilled with a pistol. In my hands it is a very dangerous precise weapon. Alas I can't always carry a pistol.
Knives (I feel) are more scarry than pistols, just because the cutting involved. Think Leon in "The Professional".
Posted by: Shrike30 May 2 2006, 01:19 AM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| indeed. you use your knife to fight your way to your pistol, which you then use to fight your way to your gun. |
Or to fight my way to the point where I don't need to fight anymore.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk May 2 2006, 03:58 PM
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| I can't legally carry a firearm into a bar, into a federal building, on a schoolyard, or into a whole bunch of other places that I might care to go to. A 3.5" folding knife, though, is legal pretty much everywhere I go, since it doesn't qualify as a weapon here. |
Just FYI, when you enter a federal building the legal limit on that knife drops to 2". Assuming you're talking about a US federal building.
Posted by: stevebugge May 2 2006, 06:05 PM
So after thinking about this for a bit, I came up with a possible Build.
Ork
Attributes:
Bod 6
Agi 5
Rea 4
Str 7
Cha 3
Int 3
Log 2
Wil 3
Edge 3
Magic 5
Init 7(
Adept Powers
Attribute Boost AGI 2
Attribute Boost STR 2
Improved Ability Blades 2
Improved Ability Throwing 2 (edited for typo)
Improved Reflexes 1
Skills
Blades (kinves) 5 (7)
Throwing (knives) 5 (7)
Athletics Group 3
Stealth Group 3
Perception 2
Ettiquette 2
Gear:
Knife Weapon Focus R-1
Low Lifesyle
Leather Jacket
Armor Clothing
Meta Link / Xim
Fake SIN R-2
Throwing Knives x5
Contact: Mafia Lieutenant 2/3
Basic concept is a street tough who has shown enough promise that a local mafioso has taken him under his wing for use as extra muscle in shakedowns and to do a little work on things the family needs to keep at arms length, like delivery of BTL consignments to local street gangs and return with the money.
Posted by: mfb May 2 2006, 06:08 PM
| QUOTE (stevebugge) |
| Improved Ability Blades 2 Improved Ability Blades 2 |
??
Posted by: stevebugge May 2 2006, 06:34 PM
Argghhh Typos! Second one should be Throwing not blades, sorry.
Posted by: Dog May 3 2006, 01:44 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Knives are good for self-defense.... |
I categorically disagree and question your reasoning. You explained yourself clearly, but I have issue with the concept of deadly force as a deterrent. You seem to be counting on someone to know you have a blade and that you're willing to use it and that you can use it effectively and that you aren't out-armed and that you have the composure not to use it in a panic after you've shown it. Anyway, we're probably not gonna agree, so don't take this as a personal attack. However....
Posted by: Kagetenshi May 3 2006, 01:53 AM
Well, if any of that fails then you use it.
~J
Posted by: Dog May 3 2006, 01:53 AM
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| [*shrug* It's not about stabbing every yahoo who takes a swing at you, it's about having options when you need them.... |
Good points, and I think you are wiser than most people out there as far as the role of that particular tool. I'd wager that when the pressure's on and they go into animal thinking, many folks'll pull a blade just because they think that the yahoo is maybe gonna take a swing at them. It takes a lot of training or discipline to think as you are describing in an emergency.
I also always have a knife with me on the job and on the street, because it's a useful tool. I've studied how to use it in a scrap, and I'm always aware that it's there, but I don't carry a knife "for self-defense."
I might feel different if I was living in Northern Uganda or something....
Posted by: Dog May 3 2006, 01:54 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 3 2006, 01:53 AM) |
| Well, if any of that fails then you use it. ~J |
And kill somebody because he wanted to give you a black eye?
Edit: Sorry everybody, don't mean to use the thread to argue. I'll stop now.
Posted by: mfb May 3 2006, 02:11 AM
if someone just wants to give you a black eye, that's one thing. self-defense is another. then again, if he just wants to give you a black eye, he's probably going to back off when he sees the knife. if not, well, you're doing the gene pool a favor.
Posted by: Kagetenshi May 3 2006, 02:23 AM
mfb made my point for me. There is a long list of things that I don't do, unarmed or armed, if I don't feel my life is potentially in danger. The knife just makes some of those things easier to do should I choose to do them.
~J
Posted by: Dog May 3 2006, 02:41 AM
Anyway... on another note, I was involved in an interesting series of tests once. One trained fighter given a dummy knife with ink or chalk on it to mark a hit, and the other given a stick, (usually a basic 60cm dowel, but we tried rolled magazines, collapsing batons, plastic coke bottles and other stuff.)
We did dozens of trials and kept a record, and about 9 times out of 10, the guy got his knife knocked out of his hand before he could close to use it. (Well, not with some of the improvised stuff.) Let's hear it for reach bonus, I guess!
We'd also throw knives into grappling fights. Most of the time, the two guys fighting didn't notice. We also filed down some different knives so they had no edge, and tried pulling them out from different pockets, etc. once "attacked." Didn't keep stats on that, but I'll be damned if I could get one out while someone was pounding on me.
Interesting stuff, I thought.
Posted by: mfb May 3 2006, 04:16 AM
yeah, getting your knife out when you're surprised is a slow process, especially if you don't keep it readily accessible.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 3 2006, 04:27 AM
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| We'd also throw knives into grappling fights. Most of the time, the two guys fighting didn't notice. We also filed down some different knives so they had no edge, and tried pulling them out from different pockets, etc. once "attacked." Didn't keep stats on that, but I'll be damned if I could get one out while someone was pounding on me. Interesting stuff, I thought. |
Lol, don't let that one slip at Martial Arts Planet. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51944&page=38&pp=15
| QUOTE |
Great, personal insults. You want to think that superior positioning will overcome a "nasty thing" like a knife on the ground and you want to call me delusional? As you train in sparring, so shall you do. And if you leave out the possibility that the other guy may eye gouge you, or pull a knife, then you train to leave yourself open to those things. They will be a big surprise when your habits leave you open to them. |
Heh heh, that's just my comedy theatre interjection for today.
Posted by: Kagetenshi May 3 2006, 02:34 PM
That entire thread has destroyed my brain.
~J
Posted by: toturi May 3 2006, 03:17 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| That entire thread has destroyed my brain. ~J |
I was not aware that Dumpshockers had brains to begin with.
Any veteran DSer would have suffered so much Dumpshock his brain would be tofu.
Posted by: Kagetenshi May 3 2006, 03:19 PM
I'm pretty sure it's my brain. That's the thing to the right of the stomach, isn't it?
~J
Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 3 2006, 04:00 PM
no that's your arm
Your brain is the thing that controls it and allows it to wank properly
Posted by: James McMurray May 3 2006, 04:03 PM
And there we have it, proof that Kremlin KOA has studied Kagetenshi's wanking technique and deeming it "proper."
Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 3 2006, 04:14 PM
Welfare had cut me off
It was either that job or my family starves to death
Posted by: James McMurray May 3 2006, 04:17 PM
I can understand how that must have been a hard choice to make, and hope you don't wind up regretting it later.
Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 3 2006, 04:19 PM
I may have nightmares for a few years
But at least I am alive
The bit that worried me is when a pair of Vietnam veterans (ex POWs) told me that they really felt how hard it was for me
Posted by: James McMurray May 3 2006, 04:35 PM
But did anyone feel how hard it was for him?
Posted by: mfb May 3 2006, 04:37 PM
you should all die horribly.
horribly.
Posted by: James McMurray May 3 2006, 04:40 PM
All of us? It seems a bit harsh to kill everyone because of the transgressions of just a couple.
Posted by: Platinum May 3 2006, 05:39 PM
Holy crap man, are you just posting drivel to get your post count up?
If so ... post in Drop bears ... at least I don't read that one.
Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 3 2006, 06:12 PM
MFB: I deserve to die horribly, but not for this thread
Platinum: No, I just find a joke like James' to be like a scab, I just can't stop picking at it until it bleeds, lots.
Posted by: James McMurray May 3 2006, 06:36 PM
Holy crap man, are you just replying to crap to get your post count up?
Nope, I'm posting crap because it's amusing, and because I come to this board to have fun. Most of that fun comes from discussing shadowrun, but sometimes someone will say something I find amusing and I'll comment on it.
It's kinda like you coming here to have fun. (Presumably) most of your fun comes from disccussing shadowrun. But sometimes someone will say something you find offensive (perhaps because it's off topic), and you'll comment on it.
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