Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ HMHVV

Posted by: Outrunner Apr 30 2006, 04:16 AM

I had my group take on a couple of Ghouls tonight, and one of the characters ended up getting clawed pretty badly.

I personally will not bother doing anything with the HMHVV on the player, since it was only a scratch. If the character had been bitten, that would have been another story.

So, fellow GM's. How would you handle it? Would you have the scratched character suffer a chance of coming down with the virus? Would you only do it if the character got bit?

And, how would you have handled the character either contracting the virus or fighting it off, rule wise?

Outrunner

Posted by: Ancient History Apr 30 2006, 04:19 AM

Considering the typical ghoul's level of cleanliness and living conditions, I'd suggest making the character feel sick for a few days and let 'em sweat it out.

Posted by: eralston Apr 30 2006, 04:28 AM

I think a claw-induced contraction is highly likely; however, it probably should not be pursued as a requirement. Just ask:

Would the person's concept be ruined if they were a ghoul?

Would the person mind? (ask them if you don't know)

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Apr 30 2006, 04:37 AM

QUOTE (Outrunner)

And, how would you have handled the character either contracting the virus or fighting it off, rule wise?

There's a table in the SR comp that handles this. Basically it's a body test.

IIRC, three successes means no ill effects. Two successes means that they get sick for I think 10 days, displaying some of the symptoms, so it's really scary. 1 Success means that they have some permanaent side effect (like allergy to sunlight, color blind, lose hair, etc). No successes and they become a ghoul. Then you have to roll to see how 'ghoulish' they become, which I believe is a will test. If you only get a few, they're a mindless eating machine. A lot of succeses (4or 5 I think) and they acutally get a will bonus.

Bear in mind I'm going by memory, not having my SR copm in front of me. But that's the gist.

Personally, I'd say it depends on how hard you want to go with the game, and/or if you think the player can handle having a ghoul. if you decide to let hem have the chance, and they do end up chaging, I'd suggest 'adjusting' some rolls so that they at least come out sentient.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Apr 30 2006, 04:49 AM

Well, they can use karma pool to buy a success or a reroll. But they can always take the bullet, too. This isn't something every group can handle, either. If your players squirm when someone dies, then infection is probably beyond their grasp as a fun part of Shadowrun.

Posted by: xizor Apr 30 2006, 04:51 AM

personaly, i think that the risk of contracting HMHVV from scratches would be lowish.
the risk of non HMHVV infection + desease would be fairly moderate.

in short, if they don't get good medical attention, they should get really damn sick.

Posted by: hyzmarca Apr 30 2006, 04:54 AM

Acording to Shadowrun Companion scratches and bites from a ghoul can pass on the disease. It is generally passed on through contact with bodily fluids such as blood with open wounds. It can be passed on through sex, as well.

It should be easy to transmit through scratches because there would probably be microscopic tears around the ghoul's nails due to all that forceful clawing.

fistandantilus3.0 is correct about the test. The TN is the essence of the ghoul. Even if the character fights off the infection be a carrier forever and can pass it to any other character.

Remember that HMVVV-K is a three stage disease. It shows no symptoms in the first stage, which last 30 days, During this time it can be treated and cured. If the PC fails the body test he can still go to any street doc to get an antiviral treatment. this should be standard operating procedure any time anyone has any dealings with ghouls.

There is no excuse for anyone to unwillingly become a ghoul (except for being held prisioner for a month)

Posted by: Fire Hawk Apr 30 2006, 05:09 AM

If blood is the primary vector for HMHVV, then I don't think scratching would be too much of a problem (as you'd need more than a "small wound around the nail" to transmit the virus.

As it is worded in SRC, however, that means that there's something sinister (pardon the pun) about the effects of HMHVV on the skin of a ghoul - is it more porous, perhaps?

Posted by: Backgammon Apr 30 2006, 05:26 AM

I'm pretty sure you can get a shot/pills to cure HMHVV in it's infant stage, before you turn into a ghoul and such.

I had this one campaign, where the players went up against a bunch of loup-garous. The team leader, one of the players, had been given a bunch of syringes that clear that stuff right up, but didn't tell the other players, who were all under the impression 1 bite was the end of the world. He had quite a laugh.

Posted by: hyzmarca Apr 30 2006, 05:40 AM

QUOTE (Fire Hawk)

If blood is the primary vector for HMHVV, then I don't think scratching would be too much of a problem (as you'd need more than a "small wound around the nail" to transmit the virus.

It is about as as unlikely as HIV being transmited through microscopic tears in the genitals during sex. That never happens.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Apr 30 2006, 05:52 AM

I, umm, thought that HIV was transmitted through semenal/vaginal fluid, for lack of a less gross word?

Microscopic tears is what does it?

Posted by: Kanada Ten Apr 30 2006, 06:02 AM

Semenal fluid carried into the body trough tares in the anal cavity. Blood can also act as a carrier if it doens't make contact with the air for too long or lose heat.

Posted by: hyzmarca Apr 30 2006, 06:03 AM

Semen and vaginal fluid does contain the HIV virus but contact with them during sex is not necessary for transmission. It is quite easy to transmit the virus through anal intercourse, both ways, even without ejaculation.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Apr 30 2006, 06:17 AM

thanks for double checking me hyzmarca. I thought I was pretty read up on it.

Had to be really. I was running a game my wife was playing in (she has a voodoun character that walks the fine line) and she slaughtered a bunch of ghouls. About 25 actually, while channeling Ghede.

She only took damage for three hits, but since she was using a sword, and channeling a force 13 spirit/loa ( !) she had a lot of blood on her. incidentally, she took the damage before she channeled. THey couldn't touch her after that.

Any opinions on how many tests she should have to make? Also, she hasn't thought to get her self checked for infection, and I'm sure as hell not going to tell her ( ), any opinions on what kind of test she should make to know better? Doesn't have the common sense edge, or any particular skill or previous dealings w/ HMHVV.

Posted by: hyzmarca Apr 30 2006, 06:34 AM

I'd say 1 test against whaichever ghoul had the highest essence score. If she gets the success she becomes immune but is a carrier and will be able to infect others, intentionally and unwittingly.

As for which tests she should have to make to know better, Sixth World knowledge skill, medicine knowledge skill, biotech active skill, virology knowledge skill, ghouls (anything) knowledge skill, and ect. I find it hard to believe that anyone could go through life without at least seeing an HMHVV-K PSA on the trideo.

If she makes the body tests and gets treatment I'm not sue. Part of me wants to say that a person can avoid becomming a carrier with luck and treatment together but pat of me doesn't.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Apr 30 2006, 07:00 AM

QUOTE

I find it hard to believe that anyone could go through life without at least seeing an HMHVV-K PSA on the trideo.

That right there was more or less what I was asking about. How much knowledge someone with no biotech background may know about it from say the Discovery Channel, or Awakened World ,or whatever.

I was trying to decide if channeling the spirit would give her added prorection as well, as that boosts her attributes in to the double digits. Hadn't really decided at what point the test(s) would have to be made. Thoughts?

Honestly I'd rather the character didn't become a ghoul for purposes of my campaign, although I think she could handle it. But I hate a game world without consequences, ya' know?

Posted by: hyzmarca Apr 30 2006, 07:07 AM

The text is quite explicit, unaugmented body.

If she can handle it being an unaltered carrier is a hell of a lot better than being a ghoul. It is a dark secret and a biological weapon wraped together in one package.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Apr 30 2006, 07:15 AM

I was just asking because I reasoned 'unaugmented' to not factor in things such as bone lacing and dermal plating, things that surely wouldn't apply. But if you've got something like Resistance to Pathogens Edge, that should apply, so I figured a magical bonus directly to the body, as opposed to a damage resistant augmentation would make sense. Or am I skewing the evidence to fit with my wants?

Posted by: hyzmarca Apr 30 2006, 07:26 AM

Augmentations that count as "natural" are limited by a racial maximum in SR3. That is the guideline I use.

It is your game and it could go either way, really.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Apr 30 2006, 07:33 AM

ok , thanks for the advice. At least it gives me a better advice of what I'll be working with depending on which way I decide to take it. Would be pretty interesting having a voodoun tip toeing over the Petro line occassionally that's a HMHVV carrier.

Posted by: eidolon Apr 30 2006, 12:11 PM

QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

Well, they can use karma pool to buy a success or a reroll.

You must achieve at least one success normally in order to buy more, so they're basically just be buying their way out of having any permanent effects.

As to a vaccine/pill, I can't recall any (canon) references to such a thing, but then again the whole HMHVV hasn't come up much in my games.

Posted by: Dawnshadow Apr 30 2006, 12:38 PM

Magical "augmentations" always count as natural. Adepts and so on as the basis for that belief.

I would say one test, highest essence, using the body when exposure took place. Yes, the odds are she's going to get every success required and then some.

I would think that successes beyond 3 would be enough to prevent becoming a carrier -- 4 successes, for a month or so you could "possibly" infect someone, 5 successes, you are not a carrier.

I would think that the Krieger strain would be "common" knowledge, so a straight intelligence check -- or at least target 4 roll (defaulted to target 8 ). Wouldn't have all the little tidbits, but the general infection means, and the treatment..

Posted by: mmu1 Apr 30 2006, 02:00 PM

QUOTE (Dawnshadow)

I would think that the Krieger strain would be "common" knowledge, so a straight intelligence check -- or at least target 4 roll (defaulted to target 8 ). Wouldn't have all the little tidbits, but the general infection means, and the treatment..

And everyone on the team should get to roll as well - so even if the infected character missed it, there's a good chance that (unless they're all complete sociopaths) one of the other PCs would knows something about it, and speak up.

Getting bitten by a ghoul is not a big deal, unless the GM decides to be a jerk and starts working to hide the facts from the players, because he wants to see the drama happen when a character does turn. (remember a couple of threads in the past spawned by that sort of thing)

Posted by: Dog Apr 30 2006, 02:07 PM

Contracting HMHVV would be a major plot-point. It could be the basis of a campaign, and I would suggest giving that consideration before even having the characters face the infected in combat.
The other side of that is if it's going to train-wreck your campaign, you might wanna make them sweat, "roll in secret," then tell them they lucked out...this time. (...as has already been suggested.) The point is try not to give the impression to the players that they've nothing to worry about because GM fiat is going to protect them. Even if it is.

A related anecdote: One of the scariest times of my life was when I was in a scrap and got bit by a guy who had Hepatitis C. What they drill into us at that job is that Hep C is easier to catch, more common and more deadly than HIV. I don't have any numbers to back that up, but that's what they tell us. I was fortunate in that case, but will never forget the feeling when I was at the emergency room, waiting to find out what was going to happen to me.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Apr 30 2006, 02:25 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

It can be passed on through sex, as well.

OK for the really really kinky.

As for the rest, whe ghouls were just another metatype. we didn't care. They had claws, we had SMG's.

Then it came out they could infect others and we didn't treat them so lightly. They became a real horror. Shiawase makes a great little flame thrower.

Posted by: Squinky Apr 30 2006, 03:53 PM

QUOTE (Dog)

A related anecdote: One of the scariest times of my life was when I was in a scrap and got bit by a guy who had Hepatitis C. What they drill into us at that job is that Hep C is easier to catch, more common and more deadly than HIV. I don't have any numbers to back that up, but that's what they tell us. I was fortunate in that case, but will never forget the feeling when I was at the emergency room, waiting to find out what was going to happen to me.

You worked in Corrections or Detention, right?

Posted by: hyzmarca Apr 30 2006, 08:00 PM

QUOTE (eidolon @ Apr 30 2006, 07:11 AM)

As to a vaccine/pill, I can't recall any (canon) references to such a thing, but then again the whole HMHVV hasn't come up much in my games.

SRComp page 33 under Infection.
"[...]in the first stage [...] the virus can be treated if detected."

QUOTE (Dawnshadow)

Magical "augmentations" always count as natural. Adepts and so on as the basis for that belief.

Adept Improved Atribute is limited by the Adept's Racial Maximum.

QUOTE (Dog)

You were given some incorrect hype. Hepatitus, in general, has more transmission vectors than HIV. However, Hepatitus C specificly has fewer. You are less likely to recieve it from heterosexual intercourse, for example, since blood-blood contact is required. Of course, it is transmissed through sex rather frequently (through the aforementioned microscopic tears).

Also, Hepatitus C is not more deadly than HIV, not by a long shot. Hepittus C can be a cronic infection but it is not a terminal infection. That is, it is possible for your body's immune system to completly fight off the virus, unlike HIV.

For many years, my father believed that he had Hepititus B and C due to a positive antibody test result. Recently, the VA required him to have a complete physical and among the tests they performed were both antibody and RNA tests for the various hepatitus strains. While he was positive for the HCV and HBC antibodies he did not have any hepatitus RNA in his body, indicating that he was infected once but isn't infected now.

A person with HIV is gong to die from the disease, baring outside acts of violence. A person with hepititus C and a strong immune system can fight off the infection. Even if the person is unable to fight off the infection initially there are treatment options of chronic hepatitus C infections. There are also 6 different genotypes of hepatitus C wihich require generally different treatment plans. Some are rather easy to treat and others are difficult to treat.

Actually, what really screws you is having both HIV and any hepatitus at the same time. The HIV weakens the immune system and the hepatitus virus shreds the liver and there is no way in heck that UNOS is going to give you a new one because the virus will shred it just as quickly.

Of course, the great thing about livers is that there is no actual limit to the number of times a live person can donate half of one because they grow back. This is why it is always good to have relatives of the same blood type who care about you.

Posted by: eidolon Apr 30 2006, 11:19 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

QUOTE (eidolon @ Apr 30 2006, 07:11 AM)

As to a vaccine/pill, I can't recall any (canon) references to such a thing, but then again the whole HMHVV hasn't come up much in my games.

SRComp page 33 under Infection.
"[...]in the first stage [...] the virus can be treated if detected."

Ah! Yummy ridiculously vague fluff writing! How I love you so.

Seriously, based on that overwhelming amount of information, I'd make the possibility of the runners actually having access to this "mysterious treatment" slim to none.

Thanks for the reference.

Posted by: Outrunner May 1 2006, 01:30 PM

Ok, thanks for all the suggestions and the various comments.

Outrunner

Posted by: Bodak May 1 2006, 05:30 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

A person with HIV is gong to die from the disease, baring outside acts of violence. A person with hepititus C and a strong immune system can fight off the infection.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you cannot die of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV; it's just that http://www.aidsinfo.nih.gov/Glossary/GlossaryDataCenterPage.aspx?acr=yes&fromLetter=TermsLink&oldWordID=4&newWordText=Acquired%20Immunodeficiency%20Syndrome progressively erodes your chances of surviving infections you would normally be able to defeat.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 1 2006, 05:43 PM

By die from the disease I mean die as a direct result of beeing immuocompromised.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 1 2006, 10:31 PM

I just got through being trained as an EMT in Seattle, and they give the Hep C vs HIV debate a slightly different spin:

Yes, HIV can and will kill you if you get it. The likelyhood of you being exposed to, contracting, and dying from Hep C working as an EMT is noticeably higher than your odds from HIV/AIDS. You protect yourself against both of them pretty much the same way.

Posted by: The ubbergeek May 2 2006, 01:54 PM

In simpler term, it WILL kill you, but slowly, and another illness (or cancers - there is rare forms of tumors and cancers who really exist if the immunitary system is battered) will probably get you first...

Posted by: Dog May 3 2006, 02:15 AM

QUOTE (Squinky)

You worked in Corrections or Detention, right?

Close. I'm a "Crisis Specialist"; I've done some addictions counselling, ran a homeless shelter, the city drunk-tank, taught some self-defense and did a stint as a "Security Contractor" (thuggery for rich people) in a remote ethnic community. (The liberals call me a Nazi and the conservatives call me a hippie!) Now I do psycho-social rehabilitation for people with schizophrenia and I'm branching into cross-cultural work. The big words just make it sound impressive. End of resume.

Hyz, thanks for the info. Not surprising that they were dumbing it down to scare us into remembering the iso-gel.

Posted by: Squinky May 3 2006, 03:16 AM

Wow, good luck with that, heh. I worked as second in command of a Detention Center for nearly 6 years, so I can symphasize with a lot of what you mention. I've had my fair share of bloody/vomity/crazy people.

Course, I got my shots for the other two Hep's, so I always worried about C. Seemed like half the people I dealt with had that or TB.

Posted by: Dog May 4 2006, 06:21 AM

TB's not so hard to avoid. Just can't smooch 'em with an opened mouth.

Posted by: Squinky May 5 2006, 03:26 AM

Well, it does become a worry when you have to walk into a tiny cell with hardly any airflow. But, I seemed to have survived. TB always was touted as highly contagious around here, but again, that might have just been hype.