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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Run nuyen payoffs?

Posted by: AFCErik May 1 2006, 05:09 PM

Is there an official guideline for how much nuyen a shadowrunner should expect to get for a run?

If not, what nuyen range do you GM types usually parcel out for your players for an average run?

Posted by: James McMurray May 1 2006, 05:12 PM

It depends on the definition of "average." For some groups hassling the local street gang is average, whileothers spend most of their time doing difficult hits on well defended corp targets.

Posted by: BnF95 May 1 2006, 05:22 PM

If your runs are "small potatoes" anywhere from about 500 - 1,500 is alright. We are talking going up against really small groups of hoods or a run so simple it is ... basically ... a no brainer.

For runs such as "gang suppression" where the group is hired to convince a street gang that a particular neighborhood is unhealthy for them, and if the gang in question isn't a prime group like the Ancients, maybe 4-6K would be fair.

Most corp missions (in my games) tend to go for the 5-10K range ... modified by time, danger, etc. etc.

Posted by: Voran May 1 2006, 05:28 PM

I think its also important to gauge your player's enjoyment of the game when figuring out payout. If you want to avoid the 'loot mentality' or end up with characters who regularly organ-leg their foes to make money, you'll have to make adjustments to actual payouts accordingly.

Posted by: stevebugge May 1 2006, 05:41 PM

QUOTE (AFCErik)

Is there an official guideline for how much nuyen a shadowrunner should expect to get for a run?

If not, what nuyen range do you GM types usually parcel out for your players for an average run?

To answer the questions directly:

Yes there is an official table for editions 2 and 3, it's found in the Shadowrun Companion.

To the second question, most people don't find it is adequate and use it as a baseline if they use it at all. If you use the search on the board and try searching on payscale, pay, or stealing cars and set all the filters to unlimited you will find that this topic has been run to death, or maybe you did try this and decided asking again would be simpler than wading through the previous discussion, in which case I really can't fault you for it as I might be inclined to do that too.

If you are the GM you will find that Money and Karma rewards are useful in determining the power level and flavor of your game, if either one gets to high you can end up with an unbalanced game, but if they are too low you can end up with players upset at their lack of character advancement. If you are a new GM I would advise starting low and boosting them if need be, it's easier to go that direction than to try to start high and bring things down.

Posted by: Aaron May 1 2006, 06:02 PM

When I put runs together, I base my pay rates off of the sum of the runners' lifestyle costs. I usually start it somewhere between 125% and 200% of the total and let them negotiate what they can. So, assuming about one run per month, they can cover their costs and upgrade a few things.

Posted by: AFCErik May 1 2006, 06:07 PM

Thanks for all the advice, guys!

(I think I searched for "run payoff". I'll go back and search for payscale as you suggested.)

Posted by: Ki Ryn May 1 2006, 06:15 PM

If the runner make more money by selling the bad guy's equipment, then you are not paying them enough (as they could make more money just mugging gangers and yaks in the back alleys).

Basing it on the lifestyle charts sounds like a good idea, thanks for the suggestions.

Posted by: James McMurray May 1 2006, 06:17 PM

I dislike basing pay on lifestyle, for a couple of reasons.

1) It isn't very realistic IMO. You don't get paid more for the same job because you live in a nicer house.

2) It gets wonky when multiple people in the group have different lifestyles. What if one guy is a squatter and another has a high lifestyle? Does the high lifestyle guy end up losing his house while the squatter has tons of extra cash in his account, or is the group supposed to split the take based on who lives in which house?

Posted by: Aaron May 1 2006, 06:39 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

1) Actually, you live in a nicer house because you get paid more for your job. In theory, runners that maintain a higher standard of living can do so because they get the higher-paying jobs. When a player tells me by her choice of lifestyle that her character tends toward the more expensive missions, I respect that as her GM.

2) You raise a good point. My approach has always been that, as the GM, it's not my problem. Each player makes their choices, and a lot is dependent on the group dynamic. Maybe the high-lifer offers his place to the team a lot, and so gets a bit more of a stipend for it. Maybe he can negotiate something on sheer charisma, or works a bit on the side. Maybe, if I'm GM for an uncooperative and unsympathetic team, I have to base the payscale such that the high-lifer has enough to squeak by and the squatter is rolling in the jing. As the GM, it's my job to offer all of the players the opportunity to play their characters, not force them in to poverty.

Notice, please, that I said I should offer them the opportunity, and not enable them. Runners with a higher lifestyle should encounter challenges when trying to maintain such a high-rolling life. I think it would be unfair of me, though, to make it nigh-impossible just because I happen to have an opinion on how much a run should cost.

Posted by: Aaron May 1 2006, 06:42 PM

QUOTE (Ki Ryn)

Basing it on the lifestyle charts sounds like a good idea, thanks for the suggestions.

Now that's something I hadn't thought of: classifying each run as Squatter, Low, Middle, et alia, and then starting the pay scale there.

Of course, if you use this system, be prepared for runners who turn down missions because they are looking for higher-paying jobs.

Posted by: BnF95 May 1 2006, 06:48 PM

I tend to make runs based on whatever ideas I get during work, while driving, even when doing other stuff. (That's why I always bring a pen and small notebook around.)

That said, the runs I offer to my players tend to vary from chump change variety to occasional big scores. I've even offered them multiple missions (sometimes just to give them a brain-fart ... do they help their friend get rid of the gangers muscling offering protection to her shop or go after the 25K payoff from Mr. Johnson?)

Of course, not helping their friend might cost them some street cred (them's the suckers that ain't wanna help ol' Ma Pootions) and even lower the loyalty of some contacts. On the other hand 25K is 25K.

Posted by: Big D May 1 2006, 06:51 PM

The squatters can either choose to improve their lifestyle, or sink the whole thing into gear.

There should be at least some RP considerations keeping cheapskates from continuing to live on the streets with pockets full of cash--for starters, the new gear they're buying instead of lifestyle should attract those without.

That should encourage them to gravitate towards a low lifestyle at least, for security reasons.

Posted by: Aku May 1 2006, 06:54 PM

i agree with big D, those boxes you live in at a street lifestyle arent exactly secure, and ya know, buying a lock for one just isnt very useful since ya could like, just rip it off, literally...

Posted by: Geekkake May 1 2006, 06:59 PM

Depending on where your characters are starting out, I like to work in Street Cred as part of the pay formula (though to say I use anything even remotely resembling a consistent formula would be a gross and vindictive lie). Currently, I'm giving the runners are serious windfall (with attendant and significant risks of death and dismemberment). However, on the whole, I like to work it out by lifestyle. My SR4 campaign started, I'll admit, much too low in payment - my runners were constantly in danger of getting evicted from even Low lifestyles (and some of them were evicted). While I, personally, found this to be entertaining, and one of the runners worked it into a continuing personal background story, on the whole it just generated a lot of anxiety that wasn't really necessary.

These days, I try to ensure the runners can maintain their current lifestyles (I did restrict this to Middle at most, no prepay, because of the street-level nature of the run). No one has above a Low lifestyle right now, so that much is easy. Way I figure it, they can upgrade their lifestyles once their Street Cred warrants it. A better reputation means better jobs. My current, scarcely-used, "formula du jour" is Low lifestyle, times Street Cred for individual payouts, roughly averaged out for the group. I'm working them into a higher pay scale coming up, because they've managed to impress some very significant contacts in the Chicago underworld. Once the story arc with these contacts is more or less complete, they'll get bumped up to serious corporate work, and serious corporate money. YMMV.

Posted by: James McMurray May 1 2006, 07:04 PM

QUOTE (Aaron)

That just means you get higher paying (and harder) jobs. It doesn't mean that the same job should pay different based on who accepts it. For that line of reasoning you just wouldn't offer the character jobs that were "below his station," rather than upping the price on piddly jobs because of his lifestyle.

--

I used squatter as an example. Problems arise between disparate lifestyles using that system even if the difference is only low vs. high.

Posted by: DrowVampyre May 1 2006, 10:15 PM

I think it really depends on your group. For example, my group got 1,000,000 nuyen apiece after a particularly difficult run a few montsh back (all the corps were after us when we got one of the viruses that caused the first Crash dropped in our laps) by the Corporate Court. Now, while most people would probably think this incredibly excessive, none of us has used but a fraction of it, and that was to set up a club as a hangout for other runners. We still run, as much for the thrill of it as anything (and because when every corp is looking for you, lying low is a good thing), we just have rather large offshore accounts...

Posted by: Geekkake May 1 2006, 11:09 PM

QUOTE (DrowVampyre @ May 1 2006, 05:15 PM)

And they haven't all retired to tropical islands for a lifetime Mai Tais and high-class whores why?

Posted by: Shrike30 May 2 2006, 12:08 AM

I tend to try and pay between 5k and 20k per runner per job, depending on how nasty the opposition, and how tricky successfully accomplishing the mission is. A campaign arc of 5-7 5-hour sessions usually has 3-5 "runs" in it (since some runs end up eating 2 sessions), and i tend to have 6-8 weeks of "downtime" in-game between arcs (which eats up 1.5-2 months of lifestyle costs between the arcs).

This isn't a hard-and-fast rule by any means, but I try and make it so that my players actually want to upgrade their lifestyle, and yet still have enough cash on-hand to do things like upgrade their ware, buy new gear, replace drones, and the like.

Posted by: DrowVampyre May 2 2006, 02:21 AM

QUOTE (Geekkake)

And they haven't all retired to tropical islands for a lifetime Mai Tais and high-class whores why?

Well, because, for one thing, we're not well liked by the powers that be. NeoNET is the only corp that's not after our asses, and that's only because we pulled Villiers out of a meeting gone bad. For another, we like the excitement. Tropical islands, mai-tais, and high class whores are all fine and dandy until you get the itch to burn something to the ground, preferably something wearing an Aztechnology or Renraku uniform. Suffice to say we're just too crazy to live a nice, comfortable, relaxing life in paradise.

Posted by: Tiger Eyes May 2 2006, 02:42 AM

We've played high nuyen, high powered games in the past (50,000 - 100,000 per run). We've played street-level, be happy you're getting paid nuyen instead of food games. Now we're in a semi-corporate game, where we get a regular monthly "salary" of 12,000 a month. (That's after a raise, mind you.) We also get bonuses, supposedly... (not so far, but they've been promised).

Some months, we've done 4 or more 'assignments'. This current month, we've done diddly-squat. So I guess it averages out.

However, in our street level campaign, when money got to be just too big of an issue... well, we started creating our own opportunities. We did the legwork, made the contacts who'd buy certain items (electronics, gemstones, precious metals, etc), and then we would steal the valuable stuff. We started raking in 1 - 2 million per robbery, to split among 5 runners. (Mind you, we would generally plan for 2+ game sessions before executing said robbery...) After that, our runs were more on the 'favors' side than the 'employment' side.

So, as a GM, if you're thinking of starving your players for cash, beware that they may just take matters in their own hands.

Of course, our GM started finding clever ways to take our money for us... Very clever, very painful ways...

Posted by: Nasrudith May 2 2006, 02:52 AM

Remember also to balance nuyen and karma. If you have too much nuyen it harms the mages and technomancers. If you have too little nuyen, it favors the mages and technomancers.

Posted by: Voran May 2 2006, 07:24 AM

Heh, yeah I notice for most of my chars they end up in semi-permanent wage type jobs by the time they get past 100+ or so karma. Keeping under the radar only works so long, after awhile you need to either pull a complete fade and revival, or have someone with resources to help watch your back. Organized crime, corps, foreign nations, etc.

Posted by: Edward May 2 2006, 10:45 AM

It has been said before.

If a team of 4 runners is doing one job a month then they should be being paid at least as much each as what they could fence a computer car for. Take that as the base pay rate and modify for difficulty and risk.

To be honest it doesn’t matter, just make shore the players know what they should be used to earning when they design there characters. there is nothing more stupid than building a character with monthly expenses of 10k and a history of being a runner for a year. Then the gm telling you while you’re at the meat that your character has never earned more than 2k a month.

Edward

Posted by: BnF95 May 2 2006, 10:53 AM

Which before (SR2 & 3) could be covered partially by the flaw called day job. So if the GM is willing, just revive it as follows:

Day Job [1] 05BP - 20 hours per week - income of 500 per month
Day Job [2] 10BP - 40 hours per week - income of 2000 per month
Day Job [3] 15BP - 60 hours per week - income of 5000 per month

Posted by: Oracle May 2 2006, 11:09 AM

There have been half-a-dozen threads about this. Try using search.

Posted by: TBRMInsanity May 2 2006, 02:32 PM

As a rule of thumb for me I use the following:

No risk: > 100
Easy combat: 100 - 500
Average run: 500 - 2000
Hard run: 2000 - 5000
Modifiers:
SR can't kill: + 100 - 500
Vital mission: + 1000
Suicide mission: + 5000 - 10,000 (PC dread these ones)

Posted by: BnF95 May 2 2006, 02:44 PM

Hmmm ... I remember this mission we played once (SR1 back in 1990) the GM told the players to bring all their characters (we played multiple characters then so that teams can be customized depending on the job at hand) for a new campaign arc.

The game starts with the fixers calling up all the characters about this huge pay-off job. So hats in hand, all the characters showed up at the meet (go figure, 12 players each bringing 2-4 characters, I think there was about 40 characters there in total.)

Mr. Johnson was in the Blue Flame Tavern, well protected by his squad of goons, his offer was suicidally delicious, "I need a large group of runners to penetrate the Aztechnology pyramid and retrieve three people, two prototype devices, and some files. I will pay one million nuyen to the group, any attempt to negotiate will reduce that amount. Any takers?"

At which point some smart ass tried to negotiate ... Mr. J brought the price down to 960K still plenty of money, so we took the job. The survivors (7 of us) split the money and about 3 used it to get out of town to get surgery and come back later on with new faces and names. The other 4 got geeked by Aztechnology.

That is one way to avoid any form of negotiation, offer the big reward, up front and warn them about the consequences of negotiation.

Posted by: kigmatzomat May 2 2006, 03:01 PM

I'd recommend you come up with your own average karma:nuyen ratio and let the players know what it is. A high karma:nuyen means that magic users, technomancers, and skill-bunnies will thrive. Low karma:nuyen is for games where the riggers and gear-heads rule.

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 05:28 PM

I would never disallow negotiation at a meet. When someone makes a Face and then gets told he can't use his abilities it devalues his character. That isn't to say that there are never times when negotiation isn't an option, but runners and Johnsons are expecting to haggle over the price. Besides, if all the Johnson could afford was 1 mil, why didn't he offer 750k and go up from there, pocketing the rest?

Posted by: Shrike30 May 2 2006, 06:30 PM

There are some times that I've offered flat pay rates. The Johnson has a larger operating budget, but he doesn't negotiate the base pay. Often times, though, the terms, conditions, and expenses covered by the Johnson are negotiable.

If a J is offering a noticeable amount more than the job "is worth" and denying negotiation, it's usually because a) there's a time crunch and b) he's in a bad mood about something. Haggling is going to piss him off, since he knows you're already coming out ahead on this. If a J is offering a small amount of money and not negoitating, it's because a) he thinks badly of the group, or b) he knows he can get someone else to do it for the same amount of money. Haggling is going to make him walk, since he can get the gangers down the street to do it, and probably thinks they're more reliable.

I don't see how deciding there won't be negotiation at the meet devalues the face any more than the Johnson requiring this to be a "dry" (no fatalities) mission devalues the gunbunny. It's not like the meet is the only time the Face ever gets to use his skills, but if the sam is using his at the meet, I have a feeling I know why the Johnson isn't willing to negotiate...

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 06:33 PM

The gunbunny can always load gel or stickshock rounds and still do everything his character was designed to do, just with less blood.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 2 2006, 07:15 PM

If I'd said "katana-toting death machine," would it have been a better example?

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 07:20 PM

hell I had a face char that had a simple policy on that

If the johnson EVER said non-negotiable at a meet, he would stand up and walk off.

Since the team expected him to negotiate the run, well the J either changed stance or the Gm changed job

Posted by: Geekkake May 2 2006, 07:35 PM

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)

That's generally a good policy, unless the J puts a viable, acceptable reason down on the table why negotiation isn't an option. If the J's not negotiating, it probably doesn't bode well for the runners.

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 07:44 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

If I'd said "katana-toting death machine," would it have been a better example?

Nope. He could get himself a wooden katana and attack to subdue.

Posted by: Big D May 2 2006, 07:56 PM

Subdue? With a bokken?

Don't you know that a bokken can cut through a tank with a single swing?

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 08:03 PM

Only if you're running a SURGEd anime game.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT May 2 2006, 08:48 PM

You mean not everyone does?

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 08:50 PM

Only if you're running a canon game.

Besides, if I saw someone cut through a tank with a single swing from a wooden sword I would be well and truly subdued.

Posted by: BnF95 May 2 2006, 10:47 PM

QUOTE (Geekkake)

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ May 2 2006, 02:20 PM)

I suppose it was because it WAS a million nuyen, split 40 ways it'd be 25K each. Mr. J was willing to throw in some light security armor and weapons (miniguns on gyro mounts included) as well as appropriate transportation to the job site.

Alternatively it could be because the GM got sick and tired of our "negotiators" spending whole sessions "dealing" with Mr. J. (Too be honest, so did most of us back then.)

Posted by: James McMurray May 2 2006, 11:24 PM

That's what die rolls are for. Eventually you just say "ok, you've presented your case, roll the dice."

Posted by: BnF95 May 3 2006, 03:33 AM

We tried that, but we had a couple of deep immersion players (out of 12) who once spent 3 whole sessions negotiating a 500 increase in pay for a run where we were already each getting 5K.

These are also the players who used to frag us up in BTech by demanding to "role-play" their bar scenes when they just were going to get drunk.

Mind you, they are good players, but sometimes they got overboard.

Posted by: BnF95 May 3 2006, 03:35 AM

I hate double posting --- sorry.

Posted by: Geekkake May 3 2006, 05:05 AM

QUOTE (BnF95)

I hate double posting --- sorry.

Don't apologize, just fix the size of your signature.

Posted by: BnF95 May 3 2006, 07:52 AM

QUOTE (Geekkake)

QUOTE (BnF95 @ May 2 2006, 10:35 PM)

I hate double posting --- sorry.

Don't apologize, just fix the size of your signature.

Is that better?

Posted by: Oracle May 3 2006, 08:12 AM

Not really.

Posted by: Aaron May 3 2006, 02:08 PM

QUOTE (BnF95)

Alternatively it could be because the GM got sick and tired of our "negotiators" spending whole sessions "dealing" with Mr. J. (Too be honest, so did most of us back then.)

I had a player like that once. I told him that if he wanted to role-play out the negotiations, he'd have to show up to the game early to take care of it.

Actually, it worked out pretty well. He and whoever would accompany him to the meet would show up early and we'd play it out. Sometimes we'd actually meet in a restaurant or a bar or a cafe or someplace.

Posted by: Geekkake May 3 2006, 05:28 PM

QUOTE (BnF95)

QUOTE (Geekkake @ May 3 2006, 01:05 PM)

QUOTE (BnF95 @ May 2 2006, 10:35 PM)

I hate double posting --- sorry.

Don't apologize, just fix the size of your signature.

Is that better?

Absolutely. Thanks.

Posted by: BnF95 May 4 2006, 06:21 AM

QUOTE (Aaron)

In my current group though, the only "talker" among the players is using a troll "face" with a CHA of 3, Intimidate and Negotiation 5 (both with specializations of Mental and Bargaining respectively.) She (and her hubby who plays the only "pure" magician) show up on a different day of the week to role-play the negotiations.

Posted by: Serbitar May 4 2006, 08:47 AM

I put some guidelines together in here: http://serbitar.de/stuff/SGP.pdf (p. 14).
All the money is per capita. The idea is, that shadworunning is much more dangerous than stealing sports cars and should pay at least as good.

In my world, the average run pays about 15k.

Posted by: BnF95 May 5 2006, 12:21 AM

Well as per SR4 rules, the Eurocar Westwind 3K is worth 85,000 but how many will there be on the streets compared to say ... Mercury Comets (at 14,000 )?

If my PCs wanted to go steal cars, more power to them, of course, that's not exactly a shadow run. They might have to go to the upscale areas to do that, meaning more cops, more security, etc. etc.

Posted by: Crusher Bob May 5 2006, 08:01 AM

The math for stealing Americars (or whatever) looksl ike this:

There are 4 runners in our all singing, all dancing, car theft ring.
Assume that each stolen car is worth 10K Y.
The characters are able to sell it for 40% value (due to having a long standing connection with the fence, or whatever, I mostly picked this number tomake the math easy).

This means that each stolen car nets each of the team members 1000 Y.

The Atlanta, GA crime statistics say that there were 5,756 motor vehicle thefts in 2004.

Assuming the same number of motor vehicle thefts in 207X and that the team contributes around 1% of this figure, then they would steal around 5 (some rounding here) cars every month, meaning that each team member would get 5K Y a month. For a team of 4 shadowrunners, stealing 5 'basic' cars every month is about as risky as a trip to the local 7-11.

So, any run which would pay out less than 1K Y per runner and carries any risk at all is not worth your time.

Next, we'll cover stealing a 'almost new' sports car:
Assume that the sports car is worth 80K, the team can sell it to the fence at only 25% (hey, sports car parts are harder to move than econo-box parts). This nets each team member 5K Y. For a team of 4 runners, stealing a sports car is still not that risky. So, a run that carries only minor risks (will not involved any shooting, but will involve the acutal commision of crimes) had better pay you at least 5K Y.

For most 'exciting runs' where you might have to commit capital crimes, the price had better go up, up, up.

Posted by: Serbitar May 5 2006, 09:08 AM

Thanks Bob for the maths, thats exactly what I had in mind.