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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Hacking and Logic
Posted by: Big D May 1 2006, 06:21 PM
Sorry if I seem particularly obtuse, but this has been bugging me...
When exactly can a hacker/TM use skill+Logic instead of skill+program?
"When you are directly interacting with a device" seems way too open for me. Does that mean if I skip the program/CF and attempt to perform an action that a program/CF does without using one that I can use Logic for the pool instead? That seems munchy, because then a maxed hacker can have the equivalent of a rating-9 program on any action that they choose--with the only catch being that they couldn't replicate sustained programs like armor, or simulate running multiple programs at once.
Does it instead mean that I can never use skill+Logic unless I'm crouched over a captured commlink on a desk trying to take it apart, or something?
Also, on a similar note, is there any reason (other than prejudice) that a TM shouldn't just carry a commlink around full of programs that they don't have CFs for (yet), run it into their PAN, and access it from their living persona as needed? That would seem to be particularly useful for starting TMs to do, to cover their weak spots. After all, program upgrades are cheaper than CF upgrades, if you get my meaning.
Posted by: Aaron May 1 2006, 06:28 PM
Here's how I'd do it:
"Geez, this guy's commlink is set up in some completely fragged-up chiphead way. Lemme see if I can get it to work properly." -- Computer (or Hacking) + Logic
"Geez. this guy's commlink is protected with some completely fragged-up chiphead firewall. Lemme see if I can get it to work properly." -- Hacking + Exploit
"Geez. this guy's commlink is protected with some completely fragged-up chiphead encryption. Lemme see if I can get it to read properly." -- Response + Decrypt
Posted by: BnF95 May 1 2006, 06:28 PM
Hacking on the fly?
Posted by: Big D May 1 2006, 06:46 PM
| QUOTE |
| Hacking on the fly? |
Essentially, yes. It just seems a little wrong that I could ignore the program and add *more* dice to the pool doing it by hand--especially if I could add 9 (or 10, if I use Ex. Att.) to it.
Posted by: BnF95 May 1 2006, 06:50 PM
Could be because a program isn't as intuitive as a person? Although I do sometimes allow my PCs to add in their intuition/logic attribute to the skill+program check, specially when they are helping the program out (i.e. REALLY trying to crack something ... fast.)
Posted by: Big D May 1 2006, 06:55 PM
I buy the, err, logic, of that, but it makes for some odd gameplay considerations.
For starters, if I have a high Logic, why should I ever buy an attack program? Any time that I would use an attack program, I could perform the attack myself instead.
The same goes for the major action-based programs, like exploit and edit.
Posted by: BnF95 May 1 2006, 07:07 PM
Errr ... instead of skill+program it becomes skill+program+attribute?
Posted by: Konsaki May 1 2006, 07:09 PM
Paint a room with photoshop (Edit Program) and then paint a room using 1's and 0's (Logic) or some other code language.
Posted by: Thanee May 1 2006, 07:14 PM
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| "When you are directly interacting with a device" seems way too open for me. Does that mean if I skip the program/CF and attempt to perform an action that a program/CF does without using one that I can use Logic for the pool instead? That seems munchy, because then a maxed hacker can have the equivalent of a rating-9 program on any action that they choose--with the only catch being that they couldn't replicate sustained programs like armor, or simulate running multiple programs at once. |
That's when you are not in the matrix, as I understand it.
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 1 2006, 07:22 PM
on the photosop thing, I know programmers who work faster in assembler than in photoshop when doing graphics
Posted by: Konsaki May 1 2006, 07:24 PM
Is that a program or a language?
Posted by: Voran May 1 2006, 07:24 PM
I'm thinking instead of skill+program+attribute directly, you could roll attribute (logic or whatever) and the number of hits you get is the number of dice you can add to skill+program.
Posted by: BnF95 May 1 2006, 07:26 PM
| QUOTE (Voran) |
| I'm thinking instead of skill+program+attribute directly, you could roll attribute (logic or whatever) and the number of hits you get is the number of dice you can add to skill+program. |
Alternatively, you could roll attribute+program with the skill level being the max # of hits.
Posted by: mfb May 1 2006, 07:27 PM
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| on the photosop thing, I know programmers who work faster in assembler than in photoshop when doing graphics |
maybe for simple graphics, nothing more complex than a shaded box or circle. not that programmers are known for their spectacular graphical skizzles to begin with, i guess.
Posted by: hobgoblin May 1 2006, 08:00 PM
| QUOTE (Konsaki) |
| Is that a program or a language? |
iirc, assembler is a language. or more correct a collective term covering the diffrent signal sequences a cpu uses, given names.
ie, intel have one kind of assembler for their cpus, there is another kind for the powerpc line of cpus and so on. its one step up from working directly with the binary 1's and 0's that all computing is based on.
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll May 1 2006, 08:20 PM
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) | ||
iirc, assembler is a language. or more correct a collective term covering the diffrent signal sequences a cpu uses, given names. ie, intel have one kind of assembler for their cpus, there is another kind for the powerpc line of cpus and so on. its one step up from working directly with the binary 1's and 0's that all computing is based on. |
You've got it mostly.
Languages (Basic, C/C++, Assembly, etc) are Complied into Object Code then turned into Machine Language (1's an 0's) that the CPU can execute.
High Level languages are easier to code but tend offer less control over exact machine control. The resultant code is larger and slower than their lower level language counter parts. The same program written in Assembly can easily be 10-times smaller than the same program written in Basic and executes much faster.
A general order would be: Code -> Compile -> Link -> Execute
Posted by: Big D May 1 2006, 08:44 PM
So, going back to the original question, is this something that's just unclear in RAW? It certainly sounds that way, and that was the main thing that I wanted to confirm.
In general, I'm liking Aaron's recommendation, which seems to disallow Logic from being used in any situation where a specific program can be used instead. I worry that adding 5-10 dice on top of a normal skill+program pool could make hacking anything that doesn't have a Logic attribute too easy.
On the other hand, that would imply that you simply couldn't perform an action for which you had no program.
Would some sort of a default penalty be appropriate to allow a decker to use Logic in place of a program? Even then, if it was only a -2 penalty, a super-intelligent hacker would ignore most programs--but then, maybe that's a reasonable assumption to begin with.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid May 1 2006, 08:48 PM
| QUOTE (Konsaki) |
| Paint a room with photoshop (Edit Program) and then paint a room using 1's and 0's (Logic) or some other code language. |
Done both...
PS makes it easier and quicker, "0"s & "1"s, are cheaper.
Depends if speed or economy is more important.
Posted by: bustedkarma May 1 2006, 08:51 PM
I like the idea of allowing a hacker to use Logic, to some degree. I think of it as the hacker adding a new bit of code on the fly to his utility, to try an make it work a little better for the current situation.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid May 1 2006, 09:03 PM
As I understand it from the description, hacking on the fly is considered a more "brute force" approach and thus is more likely to trigger an alert.
I would think that aside from drain, hacking should use the same mechanic as for casting spells.
Pool = Logic + Hacking Skill
Damage/Effect = Programme rating + net hits [with maximum hits applicable = programme rating]
Posted by: hobgoblin May 1 2006, 09:05 PM
how about rolling logic and the number of hits is the number of extra dice it gives to the skill test?
Posted by: Geekkake May 1 2006, 09:39 PM
The hacker in my games who starts asking for Logic in addition to other pools, or in lieu of weaker programs, is the hacker who gets what he wants, and somehow runs into nothing but ultraviolets filled with hideous forms of black ice that dissolve his mind from the inside out.
Are you listening, Red?
Posted by: Thanee May 1 2006, 09:42 PM
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ May 1 2006, 11:03 PM) |
| As I understand it from the description, hacking on the fly is considered a more "brute force" approach and thus is more likely to trigger an alert. |
I think in the book, it's just one method of gaining entry to a system, when you have no passcodes or anything.
After that, there is no hacking on the fly anymore.
| QUOTE |
| I would think that aside from drain, hacking should use the same mechanic as for casting spells. Pool = Logic + Hacking Skill Damage/Effect = Programme rating + net hits [with maximum hits applicable = programme rating] |
Not too bad. Instead of Drain I would increase some tally, that triggers security responses at various points.
Bye
Thanee
Posted by: Konsaki May 1 2006, 10:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Pool = Logic + Hacking Skill Damage/Effect = Programme rating + net hits [with maximum hits applicable = programme rating] |
I like the way this houserule looks. It would make all 3 elements have a true value for the runner. As it is, I could take a meathead with 1 logic, throw a all 6 commlink at him full of programs and he would be able to hack almost as well as a supernerd with 10 Logic.
Posted by: Voran May 1 2006, 10:08 PM
Hm. I kinda also like the idea of Logic+Skill with a max hits based on something like twice the program rating. You could be a smart, skilled guy, but if you're stuck using a piddly program, it'll really limit you.
Posted by: Konsaki May 1 2006, 10:18 PM
I think that would lower the value of the program, i would see people getting rank 3 programs just to save money cause most people dont get more than 6 successes unless they have an ungodly pool.
Logic 10 + Skill 7 + Hot Sim (2) = Max pool of 19 dice for matrix actions unless you have some adept hacker munchkin... 
Most hackers would have on average logic 4-5 and skill 4-5 with hotsim. This leads to an average of 3-5 hits per roll. With programs limiting hits to their rank*1 they mean more and you will see more rank 4-5 programs.
Posted by: Big D May 1 2006, 10:19 PM
You have to figure out what to do when you have no program, though.
With magic, it's simple... you can't cast what you don't know.
With hacking, it just doesn't quite make sense that you can't disarm that data bomb because you don't have a purpose-built program with you.
I was also wondering... is there any reason why a TM *shouldn't* carry a commlink with a few programs on it to balance out their weak points? It will take a heck of a lot of karma to get CFs raised to 6 everywhere.
Posted by: FanGirl May 1 2006, 10:30 PM
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| I was also wondering... is there any reason why a TM *shouldn't* carry a commlink with a few programs on it to balance out their weak points? It will take a heck of a lot of karma to get CFs raised to 6 everywhere. |
My GM made up a house rule to make CFs like spells: They cost 3 BP or 5 Karma, and are always equal to one's Resonance. I plan on having my TM carry around a commlink that she'll use for all legitimate business, only using her special abilities when it's time to do illegal stuff.
Posted by: Konsaki May 1 2006, 10:32 PM
Off the top of my head, if the person didnt have a Hacking program, Disable Databomb for example, they couldnt do it. If they didnt have a Normal one like Search, then they default to 1 cause all the normal ones come with your OS in the RAW.
For TM IMO they cant use Hacker skills like they use their TM skills. Hacking (Hacker) and Hacking ™ are 2 entirely different things. He would have to skill in both... The plus side is they dont really have to cause they can always thread a CF they dont have. It is just a pain to do. 
All that said about the TM, it doesnt mean they CANT carry around a commlink. Infact IMO they should if just to be a decoy. 
Edit: I agree with FanGirl on that Houserule. It makes TM and Hackers a little more even IMO.
Posted by: FanGirl May 1 2006, 10:38 PM
Yes, that's what I just said I'm doing! If a TM uses a commlink frequently (but never for shady stuff) then it's much harder to pin anything on him.
EDIT: Actually, you're agreeing with Emo; it was all his idea.
Posted by: Konsaki May 1 2006, 10:44 PM
*Shoots self in head* 
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig May 1 2006, 11:15 PM
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| So, going back to the original question, is this something that's just unclear in RAW? |
Not really.
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| In general, I'm liking Aaron's recommendation, which seems to disallow Logic from being used in any situation where a specific program can be used instead. |
That's what the RAW says.
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| On the other hand, that would imply that you simply couldn't perform an action for which you had no program. |
IIRC, that's the RAW, too.
Posted by: Geekkake May 1 2006, 11:31 PM
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
IIRC, that's the RAW, too. |
Which makes sense. Most, if not all, Matrix interactions are simply too complex to write a program on the fly for it.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid May 2 2006, 04:28 AM
| QUOTE (Voran) |
| You could be a smart, skilled guy, but if you're stuck using a piddly program, it'll really limit you. |
...yeah, Like MS Outlook...
Posted by: The Jopp May 2 2006, 07:44 AM
In order to avoid the ”Idiot Savant” syndrome (logic 1 hacker with whizbang software and commlink) that can hack just about anything but is a drooling idiot everywhere else. We did the following:
Logic: A characters understanding of how a program works, its limitations and versatility in a given situation
Intuition: A characters understanding in how to exploit the programs abilities in unusual ways and an imaginative mind to come up with unusual solutions.
The maximum rating of a program a character can use is (Logic+Intuition) / 2.
This solution means that you *need* a certain level of intelligence and intuitive mind in order to fully use a complex program. In the case of the Idiot Savant it *could* be a wonder child with a logic of 1 and Intuition 7 who could use a rating 4 program but they should be rare, very rare (mostly because their survival in the shadows would be almost nil.)
This way your Logic and Intuition functions like some version of Response since it effectively limits your effective program rating.
Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 08:45 AM
which runs counter to Canon history
as the High Logic Government Hackers Died at the Hands of the '29 crash Virus
But a bunch of Intuitive Mavericks (high Intuition, Low Logic) Roxored the Soxors of the virus.
FanPro got this one right
Deal with it.
(Synner: See, when you guys do good I acknowledge it."
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig May 2 2006, 08:48 AM
Not really - they took the most gifted kids... which would have a higher logic than the agents, in fact.
Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 09:13 AM
No
They took Gifted Mavericks
Now I don't know abotu you, but In my experience, most maverick hackers I know are very high on the intuition, although their logic and planning leaves someting to be desired
Posted by: The Jopp May 2 2006, 09:17 AM
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| which runs counter to Canon history as the High Logic Government Hackers Died at the Hands of the '29 crash Virus But a bunch of Intuitive Mavericks (high Intuition, Low Logic) Roxored the Soxors of the virus. FanPro got this one right Deal with it. (Synner: See, when you guys do good I acknowledge it." |
I disagree. The Deckers of old might have been high Logic and low intuition while the new ones had BOTH high Logic and Intuition, you usually NEED intelligence to understand computers and programming, you need to LEARN how to use hacking programs and I dont think they let Intelligence 1 characters into Universities without the grades to prove they belong there...
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig May 2 2006, 09:24 AM
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| Now I don't know abotu you, but In my experience, most maverick hackers I know are very high on the intuition, although their logic and planning leaves someting to be desired |
You seem to confuse Logic and formal training.
In the given case, the old ways the agents were trained in didn't prove effective.
Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 09:29 AM
| QUOTE (The Jopp) | ||
I disagree. The Deckers of old might have been high Logic and low intuition while the new ones had BOTH high Logic and Intuition, you usually NEED intelligence to understand computers and programming, you need to LEARN how to use hacking programs and I dont think they let Intelligence 1 characters into Universities without the grades to prove they belong there... |
please explain real life Autistic Computer Geniuses?
Given that on the scale of what Logic measures thhey usually rate on mmost tests from below average to Sub Human (No I am not trying to troll the Politically Correct crowd.
they understand the computer systems on an intuitive level, that even I find diffficult to understand
It reminds me of how I was able to program at a very young age without undertsandng anything abot the logic systems of computers
They kinda just spoke to me
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig May 2 2006, 09:37 AM
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| please explain real life Autistic Computer Geniuses? |
Concerning the rules, they certainly have a very high Logic.
Posted by: Serbitar May 2 2006, 09:48 AM
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=ST&f=26&t=9734&hl=logic&view=findpost&p=302082
Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 10:00 AM
FanPro, please shut this complaint up
Move all computer skills to be linked to intuition, to reflct the Echo Mirage stories
Posted by: The Jopp May 2 2006, 10:27 AM
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| You have to figure out what to do when you have no program, though. With magic, it's simple... you can't cast what you don't know. With hacking, it just doesn't quite make sense that you can't disarm that data bomb because you don't have a purpose-built program with you. |
Well, if you lack a program just houserule it. Hacking+Logic-Rating (opposing program rating)=Pool
Posted by: The Jopp May 2 2006, 10:37 AM
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| No They took Gifted Mavericks Now I don't know abotu you, but In my experience, most maverick hackers I know are very high on the intuition, although their logic and planning leaves someting to be desired |
They might have been illogical in the way they did things but I'd bet that their logic was quite high (ie intelligence). They just had a higher intuition than other intelligent people.
Which brings me back to the Logic+Intuition/2.
Both attributes contributes to the total intelligence of a character since it is also used for knowledge skills.
One could also limit dice pool to logic+intuition+program. A hacker with logic 3 intuition 3 and program 5 would be able to roll a maximum of 11D6 +modifiers for VR etc.
Posted by: Aaron May 2 2006, 01:38 PM
While I was thinking this whole issue over, I thought about my parents. They're both highly intelligent (high Logic Attribute), but not very computer savvy. I recalled all of the various times I was called upon to fix, support, or otherwise assist them. Consider, if you will:
- My mother was looking for Irish songs with the name Sarah in them. She knew that Google was a popular search engine (the Browse program), so she used it. She began by typing in various search strings (including "Sarah" and "Irish Songs"), but she didn't get what she wanted; her Data Search skill was low to non-existant. She called her son, who used the same program with a better skill rating. No attributes involved.
- My father was dealing with a very slow computer, especially during anything involving disc access. I told him to defragment his hard drive, which didn't help him. I told him to use the defragging program that came with his operating system (I suppose that would be Edit for the program? Yes, for copying data), and that didn't help him either. I had to use the program myself (with my Computer skill) to get the job done. No attributes involved.
- This isn't family-related, but I had a particularly unwise student who was none too bright. Somehow, he learned where to get some scripts to hack the school's network. He studied up on how to use the scripts and how to exploit the (old, creaky) network, and applied what he had learned (his Hacking skill, or rather a specialization) and the scripts (Exploit program) and compromised the network. Then, to show his low Logic Attribute, bragged about it to everybody who would listen. Except for the bragging, no attributes involved.
So it looks like if it's entirely in the Matrix, one's Attributes don't matter; it's all about the proggies.
Posted by: The Jopp May 2 2006, 01:55 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| [*]This isn't family-related, but I had a particularly unwise student who was none too bright. Somehow, he learned where to get some scripts to hack the school's network. He studied up on how to use the scripts and how to exploit the (old, creaky) network, and applied what he had learned (his Hacking skill, or rather a specialization) and the scripts (Exploit program) and compromised the network. Then, to show his low Logic Attribute, bragged about it to everybody who would listen. Except for the bragging, no attributes involved. So it looks like if it's entirely in the Matrix, one's Attributes don't matter; it's all about the proggies. |
In this case I would say that he was not very bright but used his intuition to find a solution to the problem. He might be Intelligent but that doesn’t mean that he is smart.
In your case when it came to suggesting that your father should use defrag program and suchlike I’d say you used your logic skill because you had a logical knowledge in what program to use. In your mothers case she might have been intelligent and intuitive but those attributes were limited by her low computer skill.
Posted by: hobgoblin May 2 2006, 02:35 PM
round and round and round we go, where it will end, nobody knows...
Posted by: The Jopp May 2 2006, 03:04 PM
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| round and round and round we go, where it will end, nobody knows... |
Hehehe...
Posted by: Big D May 2 2006, 03:12 PM
Yeah... sigh.
I really hope that we see some SBs, errata, dev notes, or *something* to clarify some of this stuff.
Posted by: Aaron May 2 2006, 05:06 PM
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
In this case I would say that he was not very bright but used his intuition to find a solution to the problem. He might be Intelligent but that doesn’t mean that he is smart. |
Well ... nah, I can't concede that. He found the solution because he knew where to find the information and how to find it. Both of those would be skills (a Knowledge skill and Data Search). Nostradamus (assuming he had a high Intuition) still wouldn't be able to find what the student did.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
In your case when it came to suggesting that your father should use defrag program and suchlike I’d say you used your logic skill because you had a logical knowledge in what program to use. In your mothers case she might have been intelligent and intuitive but those attributes were limited by her low computer skill. |
Can't agree with this one, either. Albert Einstein was highly intelligent, but would have been just as lost as my dear old dad. Your average Geek Squad employee would be able to handle the problem. Again with the skill.
Posted by: Geekkake May 2 2006, 07:41 PM
I officially rate the direction this thread is taking as Logic 1.
Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 08:28 PM
Intuition?
Posted by: Aaron May 2 2006, 08:52 PM
| QUOTE (geekkake) |
I officially rate the direction this thread is taking as Logic 1. |
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
Intuition? |
*head explodes*
Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 2 2006, 08:58 PM
*adds one to his kill count*
Posted by: mdynna May 2 2006, 09:33 PM
(shrug) House rule it however you want and go from there. Personally, I've always thought the best solution was to make it like Magic:
LOG + Hacking, hits limited by program
That way an un-logical (illogical?) Hacker with good programs can't do very well, and a super logical Hacker with cruddy programs doesn't get very far either. Switch the related attribute to INT if you want. It doesn't matter.
Posted by: Aaron May 2 2006, 10:06 PM
| QUOTE (mdynna) |
| (shrug) House rule it however you want and go from there. Personally, I've always thought the best solution was to make it like Magic: LOG + Hacking, hits limited by program |
Interesting, but that would make the higher-threshold tasks, such as findng hidden nodes or data mining, impossible without making even further modifications. Plus, technomancers would have a huge advantage over regular folks, since their (possibly threaded) complex forms are not limited to six (okay, or seven).
For my part, I'm glad that magic and the Matrix work differently. They should, ne?
Posted by: Shrike30 May 2 2006, 11:18 PM
Actually, there's no real good reason they should. It's an abstraction anyway, why not try and develop a system with less funky methods of doing things?
Personally, I *like* how the matrix works, but I'm kind of surprised they didn't make it work like magic...
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